Saints game on the players, not coaches.

[Lawrence Owen]

Turnovers and penalties are not coaching problems,..those are player problems.

 

These are fundamentals that are poured over from Pee-Wee football.  Thus if this is a coaching problem, then EVERY coach Each player has had over their entire football careers need to be held accountable.  These are player issues that need to be addressed on a personal basis.

 

The play calling from the past few weeks (save a couple plays here and there that are questionable) in general have been acceptable.  When a team goes down by more than 2 scores, then play calling is effected.  And when it's turnovers and penalties that directly effect the 2 or more score deficit, then it's players that should be held accountable for these problems.

 

AKA, Luck holds the ball too long and telegraphs his throws.  This is something that has not new.  He has always been this way, yet everyone wants to blame the o-line, and coaching, for not 'cushioning' his flaw.

 

Certain players are not securing the ball with both hands when contact is about to happen.  This is a players fault because they are wanting to perform moves to gain extra yards over using both hands to secure the ball.  Blaming the coach for this is ludicrous since this is something taught to them over years and years of playing.  You make a decision: to try to gain extra yards/possible big play,  with an added chance of coughing the ball up, ....or not.

 

Holding/false starts/encroachment are ALL not new concepts to players.   These are penalties in Pee-Wee, middle school, high school, and college as well.  Thus, Players whom commit these type of penalties on a constant basis are to be held accountable. Since they should know by this time in their careers, what NOT to do.  

 

These guys are supposedly 'Professional' football players.  The simple, basic, fundamental aspects of this game should be ingrained in their souls by now.  If they are not, then it's the players fault. NOT the newest coaches in their newest term of their careers. 

 

If this past game was lost due to offensive play calling, or defensive schemes, then I'd agree it's on the coaches.  But it was not, it was due to fundamental errors in the players themselves.

[NewEra]

Players are a reflection of the coaching...

[Mr.Debonair]

The players made Mark Ingram look like Marshawn Lynch. It was sickening

[King Colt]

How humiliating was the fake kick yesterday? Recall SB #44????? I guess it is time to do a clean sweep. Only the Texans were more hideous yesterday and the next few games coming up will be losses,

[NewEra]

The players made Mark Ingram look like Marshawn Lynch. It was sickening

Yeah they did, had his best career game. You notice whenever they show players career highlights a lot of the times it was against the Colts. Our defenses have been a joke since we drafted Manning.

[will426]

I'm sure zone coverage is also on the players as well when we know this is a man to man type of defense

[PeterBowman]

Luck does bear a good portion of the blame but so does the play calling....it's figured out now that the way to defend the Colts O is to blitz and play press man.....why are they not calling plays that are designed to slow down and beat blitz and press man schemes?

 

it's like they're just going out and doing what they do and see what happens.

[Lawrence Owen]

I'm sure zone coverage is also on the players as well when we know this is a man to man type of defense

Zone coverage is a defensive coach decision based on the personnel he has to work with, and the personnel he is facing.

Players are a reflection of the coaching...

That's my point.  Penalties, fumbling, even tackling are something that is on a player.  Coaches at this level should NOT have to teach these fundamentals.  It's a reflection of a players previous coaching.

[RollerColt]

I would say that practically everyone, from the GM to the special teams players have been under performing. If these players have been going through their entire careers with issues in the fundamentals, then it says a lot on how bad our scouts and Grigson are for missing such crucial evaluation. 

 

If the players are ignoring the corrections given by the coaching staff, then we not only need new coaches, but new players as well. 

[Cribbsfaircatch]

Turnovers and penalties are most definitely coaching. Luck is not held accountable for turnovers in practice. When he throws a dumb int in practice, practice shoyld be halted and he should be forced to run laps.

[will426]

Zone coverage is a defensive coach decision based on the personnel he has to work with, and the personnel he is facing.

That's my point. Penalties, fumbling, even tackling are something that is on a player. Coaches at this level should NOT have to teach these fundamentals. It's a reflection of a players previous coaching.

Dont agree. Everyone we have besides toler and Jackson do better in Man vs being in zone. Toler sucks at both but if you're using the personnel excuse what's his excuse when we played the Titans and jags when we played man to man they could barely move..and then on each other those teams final drive he decides to go zone coverage and let them come within scoring range to win it..then for the final plays he goes man to man and what do you know we defend. He schemes like he's stupid and the bad thing is how fans can see how obvious our plays are. The only surprising game he's called for defense was the patriots when he called safety Blitz and was bracketing gronk thennn as usual toward crunch time he went back to Zone (ur excuse will be "geathers and Adams went down") like they say for every offensive player that goes down next man up no need to change what's working because of who went down still implement what was shutting someone down. Yet you're telling me it's all on the players 3 players who start suck on this defense and that's Toler Freemen and Cole thus far. I'd probably add butler when he's on the outside.

[will426]

You can blame the players but do the players scheme up adjustments second half? Nah our second half defense resembles the first because nothing changes but a play or two. When we play man Jackson and toler only ones who struggle but majority of the time we can still stop people on third downs..but Manusky reverts to putting everyone in zone don't use the injury excuse missing Adams does not mean we should play zone. Even when we had all of our secondary he put us in zone so is it really still the players??

[jvan1973]

Turnovers and penalties are most definitely coaching. Luck is not held accountable for turnovers in practice. When he throws a dumb int in practice, practice shoyld be halted and he should be forced to run laps.

[GoColts8818]

Enh say what you will but that team was not ready to play at some level that falls on the coaches.

Also the three biggest problems for this team are turnovers, pentalites, and making the same mistakes over and over. All three of those things show they are not disciplined and that is a direct reflection of coaching.

So while yes the players share the blame because they are performing below expectations there is no way on earth people can say coaching isn't part of the problem right now.

[GoColts8818]

Luck does bear a good portion of the blame but so does the play calling....it's figured out now that the way to defend the Colts O is to blitz and play press man.....why are they not calling plays that are designed to slow down and beat blitz and press man schemes?

 

it's like they're just going out and doing what they do and see what happens.

i will say I noticed a lot of attempts at screens and dump offs to backs yesterday. However, I have never seen a QB struggle to throw a ball to a running back as much as Luck is this season. Anytime he does it's an adventure.

[aaron11]

Turnovers and penalties are most definitely coaching. Luck is not held accountable for turnovers in practice. When he throws a dumb int in practice, practice shoyld be halted and he should be forced to run laps.

Then the other players would be mad at someone for catching an int lol.

Better drop that next time!

[basketballsteve]

Can't disagree more. This was just another game in a series of games where the Colts staff was out coached (the offense was completely unprepared). It's also a 3 year pattern where the Colts dig a big hole at the beginning of the game because they are unprepared to play and then (sometimes successfully) play furiously to get back into the game....BUT ALWAYS, ALWAYS when they get in that position (behind by big numbers) they throw the game plan out the window and ad lib so what does that say about the original game plan and preparation?

 

The great 49er's teams under Walsh were well known to very successfully "script" the first several series of plays and they always got off to good starts....trust me this staff doesn't do that. Chuck broadcasts his game plan every week...."we're going to run the ball and stop the run". Right now most people agree that the Pats are the "best" team in football and I think most would agree they are well coached but is there any doubt that if they feel the way to win is to go 5 receivers that might do that all game one week but the next week it might be heavy sets and power football. When we see the Colts do something like that and change what they do based on an opponents weaknesses then we'll know that the Colts too are well coached.

 

Here's the reality about Chuck.....he's a head coach/head cheerleader......as a result the players are loyal and play hard for him but that's not enough at this level.

 

As for the players not SHARING the blame they certainly should. Against the Saints some players played well (Frank, Pat, DQ, Davis, Billy Winn) and some players stank (Andrew, Griff, AC, Colt Anderson) But that does not....absolutely does not address this 3 year pattern.

 

When players play like they did against Dallas last year and then a few weeks later go into Denver and win a playoff game that is not explained by the players played bad and then played good......the disparity in performance is too great to be explained by talent....it's preparation, game plan and coaching. 

 

Unreal disparity in play quarter to quarter, half to half, week to week.......that's not normal.....that has to go on the coaches.

 

My 2 cents

 

 

[basketballsteve]

I forgot to say if you don't think coaching THE key factor in player performance (player underperformance), go to NFL rewind and look at the first 4/5 Dolphin games this year and then look at the video of the last 2 weeks.....that's not a drastic change in talent it's a change in how those players are coached and the gameplan.

[The Fish]

This whole debacle of a season so far has blame to go around. Coaches most certainly share some. 

[ColtStronger]

Is that a face palm emoji?  Whatever it is, you don't it ALOT!!

[Dustin]

[ThatOneColtFan]

I forgot to say if you don't think coaching THE key factor in player performance (player underperformance), go to NFL rewind and look at the first 4/5 Dolphin games this year and then look at the video of the last 2 weeks.....that's not a drastic change in talent it's a change in how those players are coached and the gameplan.

It's pretty obvious that those players wanted Philbin fired so they quit on him.

Whereas our players apparently like Chuck but can't win for him.

[dgambill]

Players are a reflection of the coaching...

Exactly...Bill and some other coaches take the very same players as others and magically they don't fumble...they don't create horrible penalties...and suddenly play better....the coaches can have a huge effect.  This team is undisciplined, soft physically and mentally at way too many positions, making dumb errors, and looking for Luck to bail them all out. Kid just can't do it...he is trying to do too much and he can't.  He isn't on Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers level yet or maybe ever.  I don't always understand the coaching decisions on play calls and game plans and adjustments but this isn't just a player thing...this is a communication, leadership, AND player thing.

[Jaric]

I'd argue it's both players and coaching.

Hence why I'm hoping for a clean sweep this offseason.

[dgambill]

It's pretty obvious that those players wanted Philbin fired so they quit on him.

Whereas our players apparently like Chuck but can't win with him.

I changed that...because this could be true as well.  I don't think this team lacks enough talent...and while this isn't all Chucks fault obviously there are a lot of things not going well...he is the top dog...his leadership and voice needs to filter down though the whole team...either his vision and voice isn't reaching or its not taking us in the right direction but I think some changes need made...and maybe some ACCOUNTABILITY is necessary.  Maybe its Pep that gets replaced...or maybe its someone else...or maybe some players need sat down but it sure looks like nothing changes from week to week on the field with this team. We have a bye week coming up...I imagine we make a turn in the right direction soon or Irsay makes some changes during that time to turn this thing around.  If that doesn't fix it..then a change in direction with the GM and Coach is sure to follow.

[NewEra]

Exactly...Bill and some other coaches take the very same players as others and magically they don't fumble...they don't create horrible penalties...and suddenly play better....the coaches can have a huge effect. This team is undisciplined, soft physically and mentally at way too many positions, making dumb errors, and looking for Luck to bail them all out. Kid just can't do it...he is trying to do too much and he can't. He isn't on Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers level yet or maybe ever. I don't always understand the coaching decisions on play calls and game plans and adjustments but this isn't just a player thing...this is a communication, leadership, AND player thing.

I agree. There's no way you can tell me that MH is a better qb than Luck. But with him in there our offense is ran different. Looks smooth, efficient. What happened to the hurry up offense also? we are we barely running it in Lucks 4th year. The coaching is just horrible.

Of course I see and know Luck is playing bad. That is up to the coaches to get him on track. Have him hit his check downs. Have him stop forcing it. Have him get the short game and run going to set up the big play. It's just so frustrating.

[dgambill]

I agree. There's no way you can tell me that MH is a better qb than Luck. But with him in there our offense is ran different. Looks smooth, efficient. What happened to the hurry up offense also? we are we barely running it in Lucks 4th year. The coaching is just horrible.

Of course I see and know Luck is playing bad. That is up to the coaches to get him on track. Have him hit his check downs. Have him stop forcing it. Have him get the short game and run going to set up the big play. It's just so frustrating.

It is...and I'm thinking perhaps this system isn't the best for Andrew or at least the marriage with him and Pep isn't the best for him to continue to grow.  He was at Stanford for 4 years and like 3 more here with Pep. While Andrew is EXTREMELY smart and talented physically he hasn't grown a whole lot as a Colt and even as a Cardinal later from Junior to Senior.  Made a few strides from year 1 to 2 but up and down some in the last couple. He had has never been a clean passer in the system he is running.  He threw a decent amount of picks at Stanford too.  Perhaps he needs a new voice and a new gameplan. We all hate changing OCs and systems because it slows development (not just QB but whole offense) but that may be the direction they need to go.  If I'm Chuck that is what I have to do...else it will be his rear getting a swift kick. We have Chud in house already (don't know if he would do much better) but we can make a transition and still hold this ship together...so if Grigson isn't forcing Chuck to hold onto Pep then I don't know what the wait is for because it isn't like we have to scrap the whole offense to get a different perspective and play calling.

[NewEra]

It is...and I'm thinking perhaps this system isn't the best for Andrew or at least the marriage with him and Pep isn't the best for him to continue to grow. He was at Stanford for 4 years and like 3 more here with Pep. While Andrew is EXTREMELY smart and talented physically he hasn't grown a whole lot as a Colt and even as a Cardinal later from Junior to Senior. Made a few strides from year 1 to 2 but up and down some in the last couple. He had has never been a clean passer in the system he is running. He threw a decent amount of picks at Stanford too. Perhaps he needs a new voice and a new gameplan. We all hate changing OCs and systems because it slows development (not just QB but whole offense) but that may be the direction they need to go. If I'm Chuck that is what I have to do...else it will be his rear getting a swift kick. We have Chud in house already (don't know if he would do much better) but we can make a transition and still hold this ship together...so if Grigson isn't forcing Chuck to hold onto Pep then I don't know what the wait is for because it isn't like we have to scrap the whole offense to get a different perspective and play calling.

Honestly, I don't know why we ever hired Pep. I can only think that had to be on Grigson. I think they completely jumped the gun with that hire. I think Harbaugh and their current coach did more for their success vs Pep.

[throwing BBZ]

i will say I noticed a lot of attempts at screens and dump offs to backs yesterday. However, I have never seen a QB struggle to throw a ball to a running back as much as Luck is this season. Anytime he does it's an adventure.

 

 It was several games into his 2nd season before he started throwing accurately to his WR in a bubble screen.

 He lacks savy, deception,  Andrew is robotic, in most of his passing game really. Just plain vanilla.

  IMO that isn`t coaching at this point, as he has been watching Great QB`s do it way to long.

 He thinks like an engineer it seems, methodical, step by step.

  Our opponents have certainly tried to knock him out of being like that, but he still doesn`t seem to get it.

 I think next off season the light will surely come on. lol Go Andrew Go Colts!

 

[Flash7]

The Colts offense consists of the following players:

 

QB: Andrew Luck

TE: Dwayne Allen and Coby Fleener,

RB: Frank Gore, Ahmad Bradshaw

REC: T. Y. Hilton, Donte Moncrief, Andre Johnson, Phillip Dorsett

 

That's a lot of fire power and coming into the season, it was considered one of the best offensive units in the entire NFL. So what would it take to stop this collection of offensive talent? Pep Hamilton.

 

I contend that another OC would have this group as the best offense in the NFL. Pep is wasting their talent, thus coaching is a major issue.

[krunk]

Andrew is throwing picks, screwing up simple screen passes, missing check downs left and right, but for some reason we have a wild obsession with calling for Peps blood.  I'm down with making whatever changes make this offense operate the way it's supposed to be, but this thing looks more like a Luck problem than a Pep problem overall.  I don't know what is going on with this kid, but man o man they need to rally around the guy and get him snapped out of it.  It's just crazy how much he stinks right now!

[Flash7]

Andrew is throwing picks, screwing up simple screen passes, missing check downs left and right, but for some reason we have a wild obsession with calling for Peps blood.  I'm down with making whatever changes make this offense operate the way it's supposed to be, but this thing looks more like a Luck problem than a Pep problem overall.  I don't know what is going on with this kid, but man o man they need to rally around the guy and get him snapped out of it.  It's just crazy how much he stinks right now!

I do agree. Much of the blame falls squarely on Luck's shoulders....Howeva (Steven A. Smith voice)

 

What we have seen this season from opposing defenses have been fairly consistent: Pressure up the middle, press man coverage. Pep hasn't had a game plan to get his receivers open consistently. This falls on the scheme. He appeared to have it solved vs. NE but reverted back.

 

Now, has Luck missed the open receivers underneath? Yes! That's on Luck for always looking deep. But he actually has done a better job of looking for the shorter routes the past two games. I've noticed that with other teams, a short pass usually leads to YAC. With the Colts, it translates to being tackled immediately after the catch.

[Superman]

I'd argue it's both players and coaching.

Hence why I'm hoping for a clean sweep this offseason.

 

What does that even mean? You want all new players and coaches?

[Jaric]

What does that even mean? You want all new players and coaches?

Well, not "all" new but there appears to be quite a bit of dead weight both on our roster and in our FO/coaching staff.

[Restored]

Wasn't there a thread similar to this after the Bills or Jets game?

[Superman]

Well, not "all" new but there appears to be quite a bit of dead weight both on our roster and in our FO/coaching staff.

 

Barring a major turnaround, I believe the entire coaching staff will be gone. Perhaps ironically, the only one I'm fine with keeping right now is McMahon, but I'm not married to him.

 

As for the roster, I don't think it's as bad as it's playing now. Obviously Luck and the rest of the young core isn't going anywhere. But AJ, Cole, Jones, Jackson (who is actually playing well right now, at least against the run), Herremans, Toler, etc., aren't really earning their keep.

 

I'd just advise against trying to rebuild the entire roster again. You only get so many draft picks, and they won't all pan out, and guys get hurt. You can't build through free agency. I'd keep certain guys for depth and competition, and knowing that they can at least perform at a replacement level, as opposed to being liabilities. 

[Jaric]

I don't think Grigson survives this either. This is the team he built after all. I know that no GM is perfect but he's spent a whole lot of cash on free agents and not gotten much ROI.

Not to mention his track record on 1st round draft picks. The only one that's worked out was a pick 80% of America could have made.

I'm fine with keeping the younger guys, but most of Grigson free agents need to pack it up. Especially the ones over 30.

[RockThatBlue]

I've never heard about players playing bad and the coaches not being blamed. The players are supposed to be a reflection of the coaches. If the players are playing bad the coaches are coaching bad.

[Lawrence Owen]

I don't think Grigson survives this either. This is the team he built after all. I know that no GM is perfect but he's spent a whole lot of cash on free agents and not gotten much ROI.

Not to mention his track record on 1st round draft picks. The only one that's worked out was a pick 80% of America could have made.

I'm fine with keeping the younger guys, but most of Grigson free agents need to pack it up. Especially the ones over 30.

I'd say Gore is the exception.  He's played quite well and not having 100 yard game yet is not his fault by a mile. 

[chrisfarley]

Did anyone see Hasslebeck say something to Luck and Luck turned back to him and said "something, STOP!!!"  -- not sure what he told Hasslebeck but he said something that clearly ticked off Luck.  It might have been Luck defending the coaching (defending PEP and/or PAGS).  I don't think Luck likes it when anyone says negative things about our coaching.