The NFL's O-Line Epidemic

[Smash Mouth]

We are not the only team suffering:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/181904/nfls-o-line-epidemic-threatens-its-qb-star-system

 

Its an interesting summary of the problem caused by spread offenses at the high school and college level.  Younger OL are taught to push players out of the way and let the RB find the crease.  Pass protection is about getting in the way of the DL and not giving them a clean run to the QB.  QBs are expected to get the ball out of their hands.  But at the college and high school level the CBs and Safeties aren't the cover guys that exist in the NFL.  The other issue is that at the college level, the OL is not really taught to establish the line of scrimmage - again, its the affect of the spread offense.

 

 

[Valpo2004]

Initial thought. . . 

 

I'm skeptical. . . the only information that MIGHT maybe prove something is different is the # of starting QB's through the first 48 games of the season.  But that doesn't necessarily prove bad O-line play.  Maybe more teams are willing to switch from their starter to backup this season.  

 

The other statistics they put forward have absolutely ZERO context to them.  Oh pressures are increasing from last year, blah blah blah. . . 1 year does not a long term trend make. . . They need information from a long period of time in the NFL not a slight year to year change.

 

Also they have failed to eliminate other variables.  Maybe the refs are cracking down on holding penalties and this is causing other problems because linemen realize they might not be able to get away with as much as before.  But again they still havn't established a long term precedent or problem that we can really sink our teeth into.

 

Thought 1: If we could establish the time it takes QB's to throw as being shorter could it just easily be O-Coordinators pushing and scheming plays that get the ball out of the QB's hands faster.  Isn't for years one of the things people have said about Peyton Manning and Tom Brady (The most admired QB's of their generation) is that they get the ball out of their hands so quickly that they are hard to sack despite the fact that both are slow as molasses??

 

I'm also noticing that it seems to me that the number of big time play making WR's and TE's out there seems to be increasing.  It could be that since more and more playmakers are playing offense that O-coordinators are just trying to get the ball from QB to playmaker as quick as possible.  

 

Could be that the receivers are defeating coverages quicker.

 

Could be that early season leads to faster throws then later season since we havn't yet hit but a quarter of the 2015 season

 

Could be absolutely nothing because again they are pointing to a 1 year difference with zero context.  Because 1 year doesn't prove a long term trend!  

 

Thought 2: If zone blocking schemes are the problem wouldn't zone blocking schemes in the NFL be the solution?  Or is there a reason that zone blocking doesn't work in the NFL?

 

Thought 3: There we go the developmental league nonsense again.  It's like the dumbest thing a majority of NFL fans think they need.  Look the NFL already had D-leagues.  The CFL, Arena leagues etc.  Besides that fact a D-league in the NFL wouldn't work.  You need something that is financially going to work.  But the football market out there is over saturated.  

 

Monday - Monday Night Football

Tuesday - No football but turn in those fantasy waivers

Wednesday - No football but set your starting fantasy lineup

Thursday - Thursday Night Football

Friday - High School Football

Saturday - College Football ALL DAY

Sunday - NFL football ALL DAY

 

There are literally 2 days a week with no football to be watched and that's it.  When is this D-league going to play?  And how are you going to convince people to add a 4th team to root for to their already packed football lineup?

 

It's unbelievable how many people actually think that a D-league is going to help the NFL somehow. 

[shakedownstreet]

i agree with this. o-lines have been getting worse for years now

 

there's also an ever increasing emphasis on athletic d-linemen that can make traditional o-linemen look silly

[K-148]

It's Grigson's fault! He has to teach OLmen since the HS.

Sarcasm.

[shakedownstreet]

It's Grigson's fault! He has to teach OLmen since the HS.

Sarcasm.

 

actually if you dig deeply enough, the blame goes all the way back to vince lombardi 

[PeterBowman]

and QBs are getting their butts kicked at a much higher rate this year

[ztboiler]

Here is a quote from an anonymous AFC Exec. - "O-Lines in the NFL are a lot like marriages in the U.S....everybody has a bad one, but everybody else has a better one than you do".

 

Sorry, can't find the link.....

[Gavin]

Initial thought. . . 

 

I'm skeptical. . . the only information that MIGHT maybe prove something is different is the # of starting QB's through the first 48 games of the season.  But that doesn't necessarily prove bad O-line play.  

 

The other statistics they put forward have absolutely ZERO context to them.  Oh pressures are increasing from last year, blah blah blah. . . 1 year does not a long term trend make. . . They need information from a long period of time in the NFL not a slight year to year change.

 

Also they have failed to eliminate other variables.  Maybe the refs are cracking down on holding penalties and this is causing other problems because linemen realize they might not be able to get away with as much as before.  But again they still havn't established a long term precedent or problem that we can really sink our teeth into.

 

Thought 1: If we could establish the time it takes QB's to throw as being shorter could it just easily be O-Coordinators pushing and scheming plays that get the ball out of the QB's hands faster.  Isn't for years one of the things people have said about Peyton Manning and Tom Brady (The most admired QB's of their generation) is that they get the ball out of their hands so quickly that they are hard to sack despite the fact that both are slow as molasses??

 

Thought 2: If zone blocking schemes are the problem wouldn't zone blocking schemes in the NFL be the solution?  Or is there a reason that zone blocking doesn't work in the NFL?

Some of this info they collected goes back to 2009...6 years, Also technique is not being taught anymore, That can be seen just by going to Colts TC, Its not just them either.

 

 

"You watch football at most levels now," Hutchinson said, "and in the running game, nobody knows how to attack and snap their hips. Everything is stand up, turn sideways and run. That's the zone scheme. It's push and pester, just kind of get in somebody's way, and let the running back find the crease. There's no more moving the line of scrimmage, no more establishing the line, no more wearing defenses out by the fourth quarter."

 

I think the above is important

 

 

Former NFL center Hank Fraley, who is now an assistant offensive line coach for the Minnesota Vikings, recalled a time when linemen reported to team facilities in March to begin working on technique.

"You had time to work with the bags, to practice sliding and that kind of thing," Fraley said. "You weren't necessarily being physical about it, but just working that technique and timing. You definitely lose some of that now. There just isn't the opportunity to do that. You don't have things like bag punching going on. They don't report until April, and when they do, you're very limited with what you can do with them, and that throws off development for sure. Now, guys might have to find places to do that on their own."

 

This as well

 

He added: "Fifty percent of a football practice at training camp is a waste of time. You can double the reps on things you really need to work on and take out the other stuff. But I just think teams are looking at the situation with guys coming up from college and figure there is no use paddling upstream.

 

I don't necessarily agree with the 50% percent number but some of the drills at TC is a waste of time

[CoachSmok3]

Initial thought. . . 

 

I'm skeptical. . . the only information that MIGHT maybe prove something is different is the # of starting QB's through the first 48 games of the season.  But that doesn't necessarily prove bad O-line play.  Maybe more teams are willing to switch from their starter to backup this season.  

 

The other statistics they put forward have absolutely ZERO context to them.  Oh pressures are increasing from last year, blah blah blah. . . 1 year does not a long term trend make. . . They need information from a long period of time in the NFL not a slight year to year change.

 

Also they have failed to eliminate other variables.  Maybe the refs are cracking down on holding penalties and this is causing other problems because linemen realize they might not be able to get away with as much as before.  But again they still havn't established a long term precedent or problem that we can really sink our teeth into.

 

 

while I would be one of those to lean on the trend of underdeveloped OL entering the league due to the schemes used at the secondary and post secondary levels of play...

 

however, you present your argument very efficiently in my opinion...

 

I still believe my initial statement; however, I would respectfully offer a thank you for your clearly laid out argument, and offer no other rebuttal.

 

nice to see a competent counter argument to the OP. Cheers!

[bababooey]

Shaun O'Hara now works for NFL Network and said these guys play a couple seasons in college in spread offenses where the ball is thrown in 2 seconds and they are so not ready for the NFL when they get drafted.

[amfootball]

I think at times the Oline is just the easy fall guy for offensive problems ... not saying this article is bunk but I don't think it is this simple either with what has been happening to offenses and the injuries.

[CoachSmok3]

Some of this info they collected goes back to 2009...6 years, Also technique is not being taught anymore, That can be seen just by going to Colts TC, Its not just them either.

 

 

"You watch football at most levels now," Hutchinson said, "and in the running game, nobody knows how to attack and snap their hips. Everything is stand up, turn sideways and run. That's the zone scheme. It's push and pester, just kind of get in somebody's way, and let the running back find the crease. There's no more moving the line of scrimmage, no more establishing the line, no more wearing defenses out by the fourth quarter."

 

I think the above is important

 

 

Former NFL center Hank Fraley, who is now an assistant offensive line coach for the Minnesota Vikings, recalled a time when linemen reported to team facilities in March to begin working on technique.

"You had time to work with the bags, to practice sliding and that kind of thing," Fraley said. "You weren't necessarily being physical about it, but just working that technique and timing. You definitely lose some of that now. There just isn't the opportunity to do that. You don't have things like bag punching going on. They don't report until April, and when they do, you're very limited with what you can do with them, and that throws off development for sure. Now, guys might have to find places to do that on their own."

 

This as well

 

He added: "Fifty percent of a football practice at training camp is a waste of time. You can double the reps on things you really need to work on and take out the other stuff. But I just think teams are looking at the situation with guys coming up from college and figure there is no use paddling upstream.

 

I don't necessarily agree with the 50% percent number but some of the drills at TC is a waste of time

 

this thread has a legit good debate going. I like it!! great post Gavin....

 

this is a topic that I do not believe we will find much common ground on; however, an incredibly relevant debate in todays NFL.

 

Thank you guys for the fun thoughts today

[presto123]

 Here's a site where you can compare team holds for every season back to 2009. The Colts lead the league right now at 11 through three games. That is more than they had in the ENTIRE 2013 season. Wow. On pace for almost 60. They usually average somewhere around 15 or so for a whole season.

 

 

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/offensive-holding?view=team&year=2015

[bababooey]

 Here's a site where you can compare team holds for every season back to 2009. The Colts lead the league right now at 11 through three games. That is more than they had in the ENTIRE 2013 season. Wow. On pace for almost 60. They usually average somewhere around 15 or so for a whole season.

 

 

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/offensive-holding?view=team&year=2015

I'm sure that as our pace dicatates, this is far more because of our undisciplined and often beat linemen resorting to holding rather than referees increasing their decisions to call it.

[indyagent17]

It may be an issue for some but given the raw talent and work ethic these young linemen and be solid. The College game looks at blocking differently but end the end they also need to know how to maintain pass protection and open running lanes

 

So I dont see this being a lasting issue, good coaching will correct as long as the skills, work ethic and talent are there

[Valpo2004]

Some of this info they collected goes back to 2009...6 years, Also technique is not being taught anymore, That can be seen just by going to Colts TC, Its not just them either.

 

 

"You watch football at most levels now," Hutchinson said, "and in the running game, nobody knows how to attack and snap their hips. Everything is stand up, turn sideways and run. That's the zone scheme. It's push and pester, just kind of get in somebody's way, and let the running back find the crease. There's no more moving the line of scrimmage, no more establishing the line, no more wearing defenses out by the fourth quarter."

 

I think the above is important

 

 

Former NFL center Hank Fraley, who is now an assistant offensive line coach for the Minnesota Vikings, recalled a time when linemen reported to team facilities in March to begin working on technique.

"You had time to work with the bags, to practice sliding and that kind of thing," Fraley said. "You weren't necessarily being physical about it, but just working that technique and timing. You definitely lose some of that now. There just isn't the opportunity to do that. You don't have things like bag punching going on. They don't report until April, and when they do, you're very limited with what you can do with them, and that throws off development for sure. Now, guys might have to find places to do that on their own."

 

This as well

 

He added: "Fifty percent of a football practice at training camp is a waste of time. You can double the reps on things you really need to work on and take out the other stuff. But I just think teams are looking at the situation with guys coming up from college and figure there is no use paddling upstream.

 

I don't necessarily agree with the 50% percent number but some of the drills at TC is a waste of time

 

But a lot of the stuff that goes back to 2009 can have a lot of other contexts.

 

For example this 

 

"Between 2009 and 2012, NFL quarterbacks were pressured -- defined by ESPN Stats & Information as sacked, hit or put under duress -- on 22.3 percent of their dropbacks.

That figure has risen to 25.6 since the start of 2013, an increase that works out to about 1.25 additional pressures per game, based on 600 dropbacks a year."

So they averaged between 2009 to 2012 and have said what it is now. . . Why didn't they post the actual numbers for 2013 or 2014???  We are just to assume that since it's slightly higher now there is a problem going on here?  And spread offenses became popular in college a long time ago.  A 4 season span and then telling you what it is now doesn't provide very much context.

"Average rushing yards before contact has dropped eight percent, from 2.35 yards per rush during the first three weeks of 2014 to 2.19 yards now."

Again comparing 3 freaking weeks from a year ago and 3 weeks now.  That's not very good context at all.  Why not give the information over a longer spread of time?  It almost feels like you are cherry picking your data when you only want to compare 3 weeks from last season to 3 weeks from this season.  

"That approach already appears to have hit the NFL level. From 2009 to 2012, quarterbacks under pressure took an average of 3.45 seconds to release the ball. Since 2013, that number has dropped to 3.35 seconds."

Again they won't give us the actual numbers from 2013 or 2014 seasons they just tell us what it is NOW.  

And again too many other variables.  Manning and Brady are like the slowest players in the NFL but among the most admired in their generation because of how quickly they got rid of the ball it makes sense that offensive coordinators and QB coaches are seeing their success and pushing their QB's to get rid of the ball more.

The only thing you really have is a couple of guys saying that the O-line is less prepared today and talking about how they are wasting their time in practices with stupid drills.  If they are wasting their time with stupid drills why in the world are these guys still coaches?  Shouldn't they tell their superiors that drill is a waste of time to suggest a better drill?

[aaron11]

Initial thought. . . 

 

I'm skeptical. . . the only information that MIGHT maybe prove something is different is the # of starting QB's through the first 48 games of the season.  But that doesn't necessarily prove bad O-line play.  Maybe more teams are willing to switch from their starter to backup this season.  

 

The other statistics they put forward have absolutely ZERO context to them.  Oh pressures are increasing from last year, blah blah blah. . . 1 year does not a long term trend make. . . They need information from a long period of time in the NFL not a slight year to year change.

 

Also they have failed to eliminate other variables.  Maybe the refs are cracking down on holding penalties and this is causing other problems because linemen realize they might not be able to get away with as much as before.  But again they still havn't established a long term precedent or problem that we can really sink our teeth into.

 

Thought 1: If we could establish the time it takes QB's to throw as being shorter could it just easily be O-Coordinators pushing and scheming plays that get the ball out of the QB's hands faster.  Isn't for years one of the things people have said about Peyton Manning and Tom Brady (The most admired QB's of their generation) is that they get the ball out of their hands so quickly that they are hard to sack despite the fact that both are slow as molasses??

 

I'm also noticing that it seems to me that the number of big time play making WR's and TE's out there seems to be increasing.  It could be that since more and more playmakers are playing offense that O-coordinators are just trying to get the ball from QB to playmaker as quick as possible.  

 

Could be that the receivers are defeating coverages quicker.

 

Could be that early season leads to faster throws then later season since we havn't yet hit but a quarter of the 2015 season

 

Could be absolutely nothing because again they are pointing to a 1 year difference with zero context.  Because 1 year doesn't prove a long term trend!  

 

Thought 2: If zone blocking schemes are the problem wouldn't zone blocking schemes in the NFL be the solution?  Or is there a reason that zone blocking doesn't work in the NFL?

 

Thought 3: There we go the developmental league nonsense again.  It's like the dumbest thing a majority of NFL fans think they need.  Look the NFL already had D-leagues.  The CFL, Arena leagues etc.  Besides that fact a D-league in the NFL wouldn't work.  You need something that is financially going to work.  But the football market out there is over saturated.  

 

Monday - Monday Night Football

Tuesday - No football but turn in those fantasy waivers

Wednesday - No football but set your starting fantasy lineup

Thursday - Thursday Night Football

Friday - High School Football

Saturday - College Football ALL DAY

Sunday - NFL football ALL DAY

 

There are literally 2 days a week with no football to be watched and that's it.  When is this D-league going to play?  And how are you going to convince people to add a 4th team to root for to their already packed football lineup?

 

It's unbelievable how many people actually think that a D-league is going to help the NFL somehow. 

the stats aren't going to show a super obvious trend just yet, but polian has been talking about this for years.  Oline play has been falling off around the nfl(especially pass blocking) and the colts are a very good example.

 

there may not be a practical solution either, thats partly why the issue hasnt been addressed very much.  nobody knows what to do about it

[chad72]

When the Colts or any other team does it, it is crazy.

 

But when Belichick does it, it is a genius move? Read this: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25323314

[CoachSmok3]

 

Again comparing 3 freaking weeks from a year ago and 3 weeks now.  That's not very good context at all.  Why not give the information over a longer spread of time?  It almost feels like you are cherry picking your data when you only want to 

 

 

the beauty of numbers..... they can be manipulated, but will never lie lol.

 

i still would lean towards there being a disconnect between the collegiate and NFL styles of OLine play....but Id also still agree that some of those statistics....well, again-

 

numbers can be manipulated, but they will never lie

[DougDew]

 Here's a site where you can compare team holds for every season back to 2009. The Colts lead the league right now at 11 through three games. That is more than they had in the ENTIRE 2013 season. Wow. On pace for almost 60. They usually average somewhere around 15 or so for a whole season.

 

 

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/offensive-holding?view=team&year=2015

I'm sounding like recording , but Andrew Luck has yet to prove that he can effectively beat the blitz. Its either his fault or his coaching.  Until he does, teams will load up the box and pressure the oline relentlessly like the Bills, Jets, and TN.  That tactic  will also cause holding penalties.

 

And when I say beat the blitz, that means on third and 8, throwing a pass to a ball-catcher 6 yards past the LOS and have him run for the other 3.  It doesn't mean to look for a 30 yard gain.

 

As far as the topic, other teams are doing ok with the underdeveloped olineman.  They don't have a spread offense, but they get rid of the ball quicker than we do.

[jszfunk]

I heard them talk about this the last couple of days on the radio , how the college athlete is being coached and developed and then brought into the NFL and may not have all of the skills to operate effectively at that  level/type of play.

[Valpo2004]

the beauty of numbers..... they can be manipulated, but will never lie lol.

 

i still would lean towards there being a disconnect between the collegiate and NFL styles of OLine play....but Id also still agree that some of those statistics....well, again-

 

numbers can be manipulated, but they will never lie

 

Really the most convincing thing to me is that coaches are saying that.  But it doesn't really count as hard evidence.

 

As far as the fix, why don't they just spend more time on meaningful drills?  I know if I'm an OL coach and my HC is having me waste practice time on meaningless drills I'm gonna let him know that these drills are meaningless.  If he demands the drills anyways well I guess he's the boss but if I'm a HC and my background is in something other then OL coaching and the OL coach wants to do different drills I'm gonna listen and let the proof be in the pudding so to speak.  

[theanarchist]

 Here's a site where you can compare team holds for every season back to 2009. The Colts lead the league right now at 11 through three games. That is more than they had in the ENTIRE 2013 season. Wow. On pace for almost 60. They usually average somewhere around 15 or so for a whole season.

 

 

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/offensive-holding?view=team&year=2015

I would also say that so far this has been the most over-officiated season in NFL history. I believe I heard that last week. So far there have been more flags league wide than any season up to this point. Having said that, many of the holds that I have seen called on us have been ticky tack very minimal or incorrect calls by the officals.

[CoachSmok3]

Really the most convincing thing to me is that coaches are saying that.  But it doesn't really count as hard evidence.

 

As far as the fix, why don't they just spend more time on meaningful drills?  I know if I'm an OL coach and my HC is having me waste practice time on meaningless drills I'm gonna let him know that these drills are meaningless.  If he demands the drills anyways well I guess he's the boss but if I'm a HC and my background is in something other then OL coaching and the OL coach wants to do different drills I'm gonna listen and let the proof be in the pudding so to speak.  

 

for what its worth, I do think that specific drills and possibly MORE emphasis (I know there IS currently emphasis, hence MORE lol) on proper development of young OLmem. 

 

However, and admittedly I am a gross over thinker lol, I think the root of the problem is the difference in games. I will speak solely from my personal ball experiences....

 

I played in a powerhouse football program on the east side of central indiana. The prep for this highschools football program began in kindergarten. from elementary to middle to highschool the younger leagues are farm leagues for the highschool programs. I ran the same/similar offensive/defensive schemes from k-12th grade. Offense- Flexbone/Wing T Spread/Zone read, and Defense- Bases 4-4 with a focus on zones and blitzing. To focus on the offense:

 

initially the blocking technique was to make your inside arm a flipper, outside hand to steer, and wall off the defender for the running back to find the crease. early highschool the technique was "evolved" to have both hands inside the defender and to again, use leverage to wall off the defender for the QB to make the option read, and the ball carrier to find the crease. Through highschool I would say we threw apx 20 times a SEASON. With that focus on running, we still were a top offense in the state and had multiple MR Footballs for several years running. BUT, at that level of play and the athletes we had carrying the ball...scheme mattered little. Emphasized by the fact in all those runs, it was basically 2 plays.... triple read option, zone read option.

 

At the post secondary level the offensive I was involved with, there was a good increase in the passing offense. This offense was more so a spread gun offense, with the majority of the running on jet sweeps, zone reads, and option reads. The emphasis on the OL again, was to get hands inside, and steer the defender to open zone reads, and lanes for the QB/Ball carrier. 

 

My point...

 

Run Blockers, Big Maulers...these are a reducing breed. Physically we can look to the make up of the OL bodies in the NFL to further support this. Are OL physically more dominant than in the past? from a numbers stand point absolutely. But we see in modern football more slender, quicker lineman with less emphasis on physically dominating the person across from them. OL play has changed to posting up a defender in the paint like we see in basketball. How does this create an issue?

 

Below the NFL level of play offenses can excel and look electric because of one factor...athleticism. The great thing about the NFL...its a very elite and more so even level of physical capabilities and competition. No longer can an offense run an option/zone based scheme for 95% of its offensive plays and amass the total yards and scores that we see in the highschool and collegiate level.

 

I think that schemes and techniques are the cause of the discord, not necessarily skill and ability. I think there are really 2 options...

 

1) Under the NFL level leagues adopt more "pro style" offenses and cater to the very very select few that MIGHT make it to the NFL one day, and for go the schemes that bring great success to teams in these levels. 

 

2) The NFL is (sadly) going to evolve to adopt a more collegiate style of play...where we will see a lessened impact by the OL as they are there to just make seems, a lessening of the age of the pass, and an increase in the zone read offense.*

 

*Think And 1....if anyone's ever been you should see where Im going with this...watching And 1 on tv and you see all the crazy plays and highlights...if youve not been to a game in person...

it is missed shot, missed shot, turnover, missed shot, turnover, random highlight, missed shot, turnover, missed shot, turnover. And 1 is ALL SPECTACLE and NO GAME.... 

[Valpo2004]

for what its worth, I do think that specific drills and possibly MORE emphasis (I know there IS currently emphasis, hence MORE lol) on proper development of young OLmem. 

 

However, and admittedly I am a gross over thinker lol, I think the root of the problem is the difference in games. I will speak solely from my personal ball experiences....

 

I played in a powerhouse football program on the east side of central indiana. The prep for this highschools football program began in kindergarten. from elementary to middle to highschool the younger leagues are farm leagues for the highschool programs. I ran the same/similar offensive/defensive schemes from k-12th grade. Offense- Flexbone/Wing T Spread/Zone read, and Defense- Bases 4-4 with a focus on zones and blitzing. To focus on the offense:

 

initially the blocking technique was to make your inside arm a flipper, outside hand to steer, and wall off the defender for the running back to find the crease. early highschool the technique was "evolved" to have both hands inside the defender and to again, use leverage to wall off the defender for the QB to make the option read, and the ball carrier to find the crease. Through highschool I would say we threw apx 20 times a SEASON. With that focus on running, we still were a top offense in the state and had multiple MR Footballs for several years running. BUT, at that level of play and the athletes we had carrying the ball...scheme mattered little. Emphasized by the fact in all those runs, it was basically 2 plays.... triple read option, zone read option.

 

At the post secondary level the offensive I was involved with, there was a good increase in the passing offense. This offense was more so a spread gun offense, with the majority of the running on jet sweeps, zone reads, and option reads. The emphasis on the OL again, was to get hands inside, and steer the defender to open zone reads, and lanes for the QB/Ball carrier. 

 

My point...

 

Run Blockers, Big Maulers...these are a reducing breed. Physically we can look to the make up of the OL bodies in the NFL to further support this. Are OL physically more dominant than in the past? from a numbers stand point absolutely. But we see in modern football more slender, quicker lineman with less emphasis on physically dominating the person across from them. OL play has changed to posting up a defender in the paint like we see in basketball. How does this create an issue?

 

Below the NFL level of play offenses can excel and look electric because of one factor...athleticism. The great thing about the NFL...its a very elite and more so even level of physical capabilities and competition. No longer can an offense run an option/zone based scheme for 95% of its offensive plays and amass the total yards and scores that we see in the highschool and collegiate level.

 

I think that schemes and techniques are the cause of the discord, not necessarily skill and ability. I think there are really 2 options...

 

1) Under the NFL level leagues adopt more "pro style" offenses and cater to the very very select few that MIGHT make it to the NFL one day, and for go the schemes that bring great success to teams in these levels. 

 

2) The NFL is (sadly) going to evolve to adopt a more collegiate style of play...where we will see a lessened impact by the OL as they are there to just make seems, a lessening of the age of the pass, and an increase in the zone read offense.*

 

*Think And 1....if anyone's ever been you should see where Im going with this...watching And 1 on tv and you see all the crazy plays and highlights...if youve not been to a game in person...

it is missed shot, missed shot, turnover, missed shot, turnover, random highlight, missed shot, turnover, missed shot, turnover. And 1 is ALL SPECTACLE and NO GAME.... 

 

for what its worth, I do think that specific drills and possibly MORE emphasis (I know there IS currently emphasis, hence MORE lol) on proper development of young OLmem. 

 

However, and admittedly I am a gross over thinker lol, I think the root of the problem is the difference in games. I will speak solely from my personal ball experiences....

 

I played in a powerhouse football program on the east side of central indiana. The prep for this highschools football program began in kindergarten. from elementary to middle to highschool the younger leagues are farm leagues for the highschool programs. I ran the same/similar offensive/defensive schemes from k-12th grade. Offense- Flexbone/Wing T Spread/Zone read, and Defense- Bases 4-4 with a focus on zones and blitzing. To focus on the offense:

 

initially the blocking technique was to make your inside arm a flipper, outside hand to steer, and wall off the defender for the running back to find the crease. early highschool the technique was "evolved" to have both hands inside the defender and to again, use leverage to wall off the defender for the QB to make the option read, and the ball carrier to find the crease. Through highschool I would say we threw apx 20 times a SEASON. With that focus on running, we still were a top offense in the state and had multiple MR Footballs for several years running. BUT, at that level of play and the athletes we had carrying the ball...scheme mattered little. Emphasized by the fact in all those runs, it was basically 2 plays.... triple read option, zone read option.

 

At the post secondary level the offensive I was involved with, there was a good increase in the passing offense. This offense was more so a spread gun offense, with the majority of the running on jet sweeps, zone reads, and option reads. The emphasis on the OL again, was to get hands inside, and steer the defender to open zone reads, and lanes for the QB/Ball carrier. 

 

My point...

 

Run Blockers, Big Maulers...these are a reducing breed. Physically we can look to the make up of the OL bodies in the NFL to further support this. Are OL physically more dominant than in the past? from a numbers stand point absolutely. But we see in modern football more slender, quicker lineman with less emphasis on physically dominating the person across from them. OL play has changed to posting up a defender in the paint like we see in basketball. How does this create an issue?

 

Below the NFL level of play offenses can excel and look electric because of one factor...athleticism. The great thing about the NFL...its a very elite and more so even level of physical capabilities and competition. No longer can an offense run an option/zone based scheme for 95% of its offensive plays and amass the total yards and scores that we see in the highschool and collegiate level.

 

I think that schemes and techniques are the cause of the discord, not necessarily skill and ability. I think there are really 2 options...

 

1) Under the NFL level leagues adopt more "pro style" offenses and cater to the very very select few that MIGHT make it to the NFL one day, and for go the schemes that bring great success to teams in these levels. 

 

2) The NFL is (sadly) going to evolve to adopt a more collegiate style of play...where we will see a lessened impact by the OL as they are there to just make seems, a lessening of the age of the pass, and an increase in the zone read offense.*

 

*Think And 1....if anyone's ever been you should see where Im going with this...watching And 1 on tv and you see all the crazy plays and highlights...if youve not been to a game in person...

it is missed shot, missed shot, turnover, missed shot, turnover, random highlight, missed shot, turnover, missed shot, turnover. And 1 is ALL SPECTACLE and NO GAME.... 

 

Question is zone BLOCKING in the college game an issue?  

 

Because for a long long LONG time I've thought my team (Iowa) was a pro-style offense.  But I also know they are a zone blocking team.  

 

I also know they have a history of sending quite a few OL to the NFL.  I believe I read something online that said they where the #6 school in the country for sending OL to the NFL.  

[CoachSmok3]

Question is zone BLOCKING in the college game an issue?  

 

Because for a long long LONG time I've thought my team (Iowa) was a pro-style offense.  But I also know they are a zone blocking team.  

 

I also know they have a history of sending quite a few OL to the NFL.  I believe I read something online that said they where the #6 school in the country for sending OL to the NFL.  

 

no doubt man...i wasnt meaning to imply that zone reads were a bad idea, and place blame their solely....

 

i more so meant to highlight the options reads with zone assignments.

 

zone running DOES work at the NFL level and I do NOT think otherwise....first thought to mind is the 90s/early 2000s Broncos. Mike Shanahan (sp?) was known for taking a RB, and putting them in a zone run offense and had great results with MANY RBs behind those schemes....

 

I mean the idea of the "option QBs" with the zone option offenses....

 

Iowa, and please correct me as you would know far better than I ( I also like to state things without much research before hand ), but where Iowa runs a zone running scheme...they are not typically a zone OPTION team.

 

The zone OPTION was the emphasis I was meaning to stress

[CoachSmok3]

thank you for taking the time to read thru all of that and offer a counter to the debate! Cheers!

[Valpo2004]

no doubt man...i wasnt meaning to imply that zone reads were a bad idea, and place blame their solely....

 

i more so meant to highlight the options reads with zone assignments.

 

zone running DOES work at the NFL level and I do NOT think otherwise....first thought to mind is the 90s/early 2000s Broncos. Mike Shanahan (sp?) was known for taking a RB, and putting them in a zone run offense and had great results with MANY RBs behind those schemes....

 

I mean the idea of the "option QBs" with the zone option offenses....

 

Iowa, and please correct me as you would know far better than I ( I also like to state things without much research before hand ), but where Iowa runs a zone running scheme...they are not typically a zone OPTION team.

 

The zone OPTION was the emphasis I was meaning to stress

 

No it's a zone RUN team.  I think the article mentioned something about zone blocking though which I thought was odd.

 

This is what it said.  It sounds like he's talking about zone blocking to me. 

 

"You watch football at most levels now," Hutchinson said, "and in the running game, nobody knows how to attack and snap their hips. Everything is stand up, turn sideways and run. That's the zone scheme. It's push and pester, just kind of get in somebody's way, and let the running back find the crease. There's no more moving the line of scrimmage, no more establishing the line, no more wearing defenses out by the fourth quarter"

[CoachSmok3]

"You watch football at most levels now," Hutchinson said, "and in the running game, nobody knows how to attack and snap their hips. Everything is stand up, turn sideways and run. That's the zone scheme. It's push and pester, just kind of get in somebody's way, and let the running back find the crease. There's no more moving the line of scrimmage, no more establishing the line, no more wearing defenses out by the fourth quarter"

 

ahh i think I found our discord....i never read the article...ive been speaking solely from observation, experience, and analyzing based on my perspective....

 

the above quote....he IS absolutely talking about zone RUN BLOCKING....and I would have to respectfully disagree with his statement.

 

I think that zone OPTIONS require screening off the defender and basically playing patty cake to allow the QB to read, hand off or run, as that is contingent upon how the DL/OLBs attack the play. If they crash inside the QB keeps to run outside (triple option with a flanking RB/WR for a possible pitch based off the secondaries progressions), and If they contain their edge, the QB hands off inside to the RB whom now has a crease to hit.

 

I think in ZONE RUN Blocking, NOT in the sense of the OPTION....the above statement says no push, no attack, no hip snap...to me, thats bunk.To create the holes needed in a zone scheme the OL HAS to snap off the ball, HAS to get the leverage on the defender FIRST to MOVE him according to the blocking assignments.  

 

So again, I DO think ZONE RUN BLOCKING does absolutely work, including at the NFL level. What I DO NOT think works (regarding schemes run below NFL compared to in the NFL) is the OPTION zone schemes. For those plays are predicated on speed and athleticism to run past the free defender (option read keys), and making plays in space.The NFL level of play is far to disciplined and fast, and thus causing the younger OL to not look AS developed, because they are used to having to make a seem for 2 seconds and the play is already in the secondary. They are not as used to having to STAY ENGAGED with their defender, nor are they as experienced in pass protection. When a QB looks at 2 progressions then takes off...your talking about sustaining your blocking assignment far shorter than an NFL QB going threw multiple progressions. There are some in the NFL whom are very prone to take off up field...but where those players get the highlights...they are still the vast minority of starting caliber NFL QBs. 

[Valpo2004]

ahh i think I found our discord....i never read the article...ive been speaking solely from observation, experience, and analyzing based on my perspective....

 

the above quote....he IS absolutely talking about zone RUN BLOCKING....and I would have to respectfully disagree with his statement.

 

I think that zone OPTIONS require screening off the defender and basically playing patty cake to allow the QB to read, hand off or run, as that is contingent upon how the DL/OLBs attack the play. If they crash inside the QB keeps to run outside (triple option with a flanking RB/WR for a possible pitch based off the secondaries progressions), and If they contain their edge, the QB hands off inside to the RB whom now has a crease to hit.

 

I think in ZONE RUN Blocking, NOT in the sense of the OPTION....the above statement says no push, no attack, no hip snap...to me, thats bunk.To create the holes needed in a zone scheme the OL HAS to snap off the ball, HAS to get the leverage on the defender FIRST to MOVE him according to the blocking assignments.  

 

So again, I DO think ZONE RUN BLOCKING does absolutely work, including at the NFL level. What I DO NOT think works (regarding schemes run below NFL compared to in the NFL) is the OPTION zone schemes. For those plays are predicated on speed and athleticism to run past the free defender (option read keys), and making plays in space.The NFL level of play is far to disciplined and fast, and thus causing the younger OL to not look AS developed, because they are used to having to make a seem for 2 seconds and the play is already in the secondary. They are not as used to having to STAY ENGAGED with their defender, nor are they as experienced in pass protection. When a QB looks at 2 progressions then takes off...your talking about sustaining your blocking assignment far shorter than an NFL QB going threw multiple progressions. There are some in the NFL whom are very prone to take off up field...but where those players get the highlights...they are still the vast minority of starting caliber NFL QBs. 

 

Got it, I tend to agree that zone option doesn't work.  It can throw a team off but if a D-coordinator has time to prepare for it and practice for it they can shut it down.

 

That sort of goes with what I was trying to say.  It talks about all the people in college doing zone blocking and my answer was essentially that wouldn't the answer then be to run zone blocking in the NFL.

 

From what I've seen many teams do run zone blocking in the NFL and actually from what I'm reading on it, it sounds quite frankly superior to this power man thing we're trying to do.  

 

I also noted that Kirk Ferentz (a former NFL OL coach) has historically had no problems running the football despite the fact that most of his RB's never have made it to the NFL.  

[CoachSmok3]

 

 

From what I've seen many teams do run zone blocking in the NFL and actually from what I'm reading on it, it sounds quite frankly superior to this power man thing we're trying to do.  

 

I also noted that Kirk Ferentz (a former NFL OL coach) has historically had no problems running the football despite the fact that most of his RB's never have made it to the NFL.  

 

i had the assumption we were actually on the same side to this fence lol...and I couldnt agree more with you regarding the above bolded statement. 

 

I think that do to the huge increase in athleticism among OLmen... zone assignments create more holes and creases for the RBs as well as opening up far more avenues to cut back, and not just inside or outside on the side being run. 

 

i think the days of 1-on-1 blocks and simply just over powering the man in front of you, does NOT work as efficiently any more. Not only have the OL become more athletic....but my word the defenders have as well, specifically the DL. NOW, attempting to just man up and strong arm the defender, even if the OL is superior in strength, the athleticism from the DL can move the blocker out of assignment/lane, and can be incredibly disruptive within defending the run and pass.

 

Its hard for me to move away from the reference of the Broncos back when. Terrell Davis, and the many whom followed after, Portis, etc...that ALL put up very competent RB stats...and I credit that to scheme. Zone Running...

 

But I think most people whom attempt to venture into this debate would find the semantics barrier, of ZONE RUN vs an OPTION ZONE READ, one that causes a lot of misunderstandings. 

[CoachSmok3]

I also noted that Kirk Ferentz (a former NFL OL coach) has historically had no problems running the football despite the fact that most of his RB's never have made it to the NFL.  

 

 

my old teammate/ friend J Hampton....he might agree with you about the pluses of the way Iowa runs the ball lol... fun discussion Valpo, thanks!

[John Waylon]

As far as the fix, why don't they just spend more time on meaningful drills?

I'd be willing to bet the new CBA rules have something to do with it.

[John Waylon]

Thought 3: There we go the developmental league nonsense again.  It's like the dumbest thing a majority of NFL fans think they need.  Look the NFL already had D-leagues.  The CFL, Arena leagues etc.  Besides that fact a D-league in the NFL wouldn't work.  You need something that is financially going to work.  But the football market out there is over saturated.   

 

I have discussed this as of late with both Superman and GoColts8818.

 

A D-league is a near impossibility for all the reasons you noted. 

 

Quite frankly, there is no fix for the issue of player development. Coaches all across the league are working with a short toolbox when trying to develop players for this level because those players are just so far behind on the fundamentals they need. But like I mentioned in a different thread a couple days back, even though the rookie wage scale is now sensible for everyone, teams are still paying too much to their top 4-5 picks to let them sit and develop for 2-3 years, so that isn't a fix.

 

And the NFLPA is going to take a big dump on the idea of reducing the RWS yet again to accommodate such provisions. 

 

Add in the practice and off-season workout restrictions and we have the perfect storm on our hands. 

 

It's nearly impossible to develop players, and college style play doesn't fly in the NFL, so what is the answer?

 

There really isn't one. Where that leads it's hard to say, but we're definitely heading down the path.

[Valpo2004]

my old teammate/ friend J Hampton....he might agree with you about the pluses of the way Iowa runs the ball lol... fun discussion Valpo, thanks!

 

Oh Hampton. . . AIRBHG took it out on him hard.  

 

(Are you familiar with AIRBHG??)

[CoachSmok3]

Oh Hampton. . . AIRBHG took it out on him hard.  

 

(Are you familiar with AIRBHG??)

 

...OMG how funny is the definition I found when researching "AIRBHG" on Google....first click:

 

AIRBHG

Acronym for Angry Iowa Running Back Hating God, the malevolent entity that continually smites the running backs of the University of Iowa football team.

Be it through academic ineligibility, arrest, suspension, transfers to other schools, repeated injuries (especially of the knee variety) or other causes, Iowa running backs suffer attrition worthy of a critically endangered species. AIRBHG tends to fell multiple running backs every year without cease, so Iowa can never replenish its backfield.

AIRBHG is a cruel god; fear Him.

"Jewel Hampton is going to be great this year if he can avoid tearing his ACL again!"

"Sorry dude, AIRBHG got to him already: Hampton just tore his other ACL." 

"Welp. Time to start drinking, I suppose."

[Valpo2004]

 

...OMG how funny is the definition I found when researching "AIRBHG" on Google....first click:

 

AIRBHG

Acronym for Angry Iowa Running Back Hating God, the malevolent entity that continually smites the running backs of the University of Iowa football team.

Be it through academic ineligibility, arrest, suspension, transfers to other schools, repeated injuries (especially of the knee variety) or other causes, Iowa running backs suffer attrition worthy of a critically endangered species. AIRBHG tends to fell multiple running backs every year without cease, so Iowa can never replenish its backfield.

AIRBHG is a cruel god; fear Him.

"Jewel Hampton is going to be great this year if he can avoid tearing his ACL again!"

"Sorry dude, AIRBHG got to him already: Hampton just tore his other ACL." 

"Welp. Time to start drinking, I suppose."

 

 

Yeah in recent years AIRBHG has dialed it down a bit.  But for a good decade Iowa would recruit good RB's and as soon as they started to show some promise they would tear an ACL, transfer, do something stupid and get kicked off the team, or something to make sure that they where not playing in a Hawkeye uniform for long.

 

http://www.airbhg.com/history/

 

The information on there is a bit dated and as of thus far it looked like it's taken a break and that Iowa might be able to graduate Canzeri.  And they did Graduate Mark Weisman. . . but Weisman was a FB and only got moved to RB because at the end of the 2013 season I believe AIRBHG had taken out every other Iowa Running Back on the roster.  Or at least all of the ones with scholarships.  

[CoachSmok3]

Yeah in recent years AIRBHG has dialed it down a bit.  But for a good decade Iowa would recruit good RB's and as soon as they started to show some promise they would tear an ACL, transfer, do something stupid and get kicked off the team, or something to make sure that they where not playing in a Hawkeye uniform for long.

 

http://www.airbhg.com/history/

 

The information on there is a bit dated and as of thus far it looked like it's taken a break and that Iowa might be able to graduate Canzeri.  

 

dude thats crazy...an undermentioned curse for the ages lol...

 

fingers crossed brother lol