Legality, The Nfl, And My Team The Colts

[DougDew]

The NFL has been involved in some high-profile legal cases lately, which is a real shame. Most of these cases involve how the NFL establishes and enforces its own rules, rules designed to police itself and its members from conducting themselves in a way that would be detrimental to the game. Most sports league have a governing body, and most leagues try to include members that are on board with the culture it wants to establish, and kicks out those that aren't. Somehow for the NFL, this process has gotten tied up in the court system. Its a shame that the NFL allows this to happen.

In golf, the PGA relies upon is own players to police themselves. This is a wise business decision. There can't be enough video cameras and officials following golfers around to ensure there is sufficient legal evidence to prove cheating and to make a suspension stick. How many cameras would it take to see if every players golf ball moved upon clearing an errant blade of grass? The PGA relies upon the integrity of its players to uphold the rules...for the good of all of its members.

In NASCAR, cars are inspected before and after a race. If a team's car has a car out of specs, its assumed the mechanics built it that way, not that some weather phenomenon bent a wing out of conformance. There doesn't have to be a video of a mechanic changing the wing or a witness admitting they did it in order for NASCAR to assume it was intentional. The rule is that you must drive a car that conforms to the standards. If you drive a car that has been found to not conform to the standards, you are guilty of violating the rules and are subject to punishmenmt. Simple.

Its a shame that my sport, the NFL, listens to all of the chatter...the tactic employed by some that seeks to create an impossibly high standard by which to deem someone a rules violator. I hope the NFL does not spend the money, buy enough cameras, employ enough police-ers of policy, to keep up with these people. I hope they save money and simply kick them out of the sport.

I hope that my team, the Colts, never seeks to break the rules. Having a working definition of cheating being "enough legal evidence to prove" would eventually make professional football an unwatcheable product. It would reduce the game to a game of "who can get away with what" rather than a game of skill and intelligence.

I hope that fellow Colts fans use whatever means possible to pressure our team's management and staff to hold the integrity of the game as their highest goal. For the fans, its not winning a SuperBowl that's entertaining and makes the sport fun to watch...its the PROCESS by which teams compete to get there. Knowingly and willfully breaking the rules of that process, with a goal to devise a scheme as to not get caught cheating by the court system, would put the revenue generation stream of the NFL at risk, since the sport would no longer be entertaining or much fun to watch.

[southwest1]

The NFL has been involved in some high-profile legal cases lately, which is a real shame. Most of these cases involve how the NFL establishes and enforces its own rules, rules designed to police itself and its members from conducting themselves in a way that would be detrimental to the game. Most sports league have a governing body, and most leagues try to include members that are on board with the culture it wants to establish, and kicks out those that aren't. Somehow for the NFL, this process has gotten tied up in the court system. Its a shame that the NFL allows this to happen.

In golf, the PGA relies upon is own players to police themselves. This is a wise business decision. There can't be enough video cameras and officials following golfers around to ensure there is sufficient legal evidence to prove cheating and to make a suspension stick. How many cameras would it take to see if every players golf ball moved upon clearing an errant blade of grass? The PGA relies upon the integrity of its players to uphold the rules...for the good of all of its members.

In NASCAR, cars are inspected before and after a race. If a team's car has a car out of specs, its assumed the mechanics built it that way, not that some weather phenomenon bent a wing out of conformance. There doesn't have to be a video of a mechanic changing the wing or a witness admitting they did it in order for NASCAR to assume it was intentional. The rule is that you must drive a car that conforms to the standards. If you drive a car that has been found to not conform to the standards, you are guilty of violating the rules and are subject to punishmenmt. Simple.

Its a shame that my sport, the NFL, listens to all of the chatter...the tactic employed by some that seeks to create an impossibly high standard by which to deem someone a rules violator. I hope the NFL does not spend the money, buy enough cameras, employ enough police-ers of policy, to keep up with these people. I hope they save money and simply kick them out of the sport.

I hope that my team, the Colts, never seeks to break the rules. Having a working definition of cheating being "enough legal evidence to prove" would eventually make professional football an unwatcheable product. It would reduce the game to a game of "who can get away with what" rather than a game of skill and intelligence.

I hope that fellow Colts fans use whatever means possible to pressure our team's management and staff to hold the integrity of the game as their highest goal. For the fans, its not winning a SuperBowl that's entertaining and makes the sport fun to watch...its the PROCESS by which teams compete to get there. Knowingly and willfully breaking the rules of that process, with a goal to devise a scheme as to not get caught cheating by the court system, would put the revenue generation stream of the NFL at risk, since the sport would no longer be entertaining or much fun to watch.

2 questions: 1. Just because one franchise has been accused of bending the rules of professional competition in recent months, which they were deemed not guilty of committing, why is it necessary to pose a false hypothesis or unfounded assumption that you hope the Colts never cheat themselves? 2. How is NASCAR discipline relevant to NFL discipline when the way in which both sports are performed are completely different? 

 

Look DD, you can't treat one NFL team's infraction like an inevitable situation that all football franchises commit & will eventually get busted for. My whole issue with deflate gate is how Brady handled himself & the horrible damage control fiasco that followed that Brady completely controlled & fumbled all by himself. Did he win his case? Yes, but how hard is it to admit that he screwed up, made a mistake at that initial press conference & say "I like my balls lower than normal on the PSI spectrum. I had no idea what the regulations actually were. I take full responsibility for my error & I can promise you that this violation will never occur on my watch again. It's my fault not my locker room equipment guys."

 

If Brady had done this, this scandal would have died instantaneously. But, he didn't which is why I can't let it go because so many Patriot fans are acting like only Roger Goodell is the big bad, power drunk wolf here. Brady dragged this whole situation out for months. No one else did that. Like I said before many times on deflate gate, it's like Brady said to himself don't you know who in the hades I am & that the rules don't apply to me? That's what royally ticks me off.

 

Now, to be fair, Roger Goodell got greedy over his overwhelming desire to make Brady accept the Well Report as opposed to just being suspended at least 1 game. I will concede that point completely.  

 

My other issue is this: Why appeal this decision Roger Goodell because even if the League wins their appeal Brady wouldn't in all likelihood be punished this season & if discipline came after this year the penalty would appear weak & transparent in scope. You lost Roger; Just drop it & do some damage control among your bosses the owners yourself.  

[southwest1]

I keep asking myself the same question: If Luck had conducted himself in the same manner as Brady did following the SB, would I hold Andrew's feet to the fire as rigorously too? Absolutely I would. 

 

NE fans wanna argue law, semantics, & overzealous penalties while the rest of the country asks common sense questions like Don't you expect your QB to explain what happened in his own words or why he has no interest in determining how this situation unfolded at all? Why did Robert Kraft originally say he accepted the loss of draft picks for the greater good & the benefit of the league & later express regrets & reservations over accepting this fine/loss of picks? 

 

So does this mean that 31 other team owners no longer matter to you? Please elaborate Mr. Kraft...

[12dalegend]

2 questions: 1. Just because one franchise has been accused of bending the rules of professional competition in recent months, which they were deemed not guilty of committing, why is it necessary to pose a false hypothesis or unfounded assumption that you hope the Colts never cheat themselves? 2. How is NASCAR discipline relevant to NFL discipline when the way in which both sports are performed are completely different? 

 

Look DD, you can't treat one NFL team's infraction like an inevitable situation that all football franchises commit & will eventually get busted for. My whole issue with deflate gate is how Brady handled himself & the horrible damage control fiasco that followed that Brady completely controlled & fumbled all by himself. Did he win his case? Yes, but how hard is it to admit that he screwed up, made a mistake at that initial press conference & say "I like my balls lower than normal on the PSI spectrum. I had no idea what the regulations actually were. I take full responsibility for my error & I can promise you that this violation will never occur on my watch again. It's my fault not my locker room equipment guys."

 

If Brady had done this, this scandal would have died instantaneously. But, he didn't which is why I can't let it go because so many Patriot fans are acting like only Roger Goodell is the big bad, power drunk wolf here. Brady dragged this whole situation out for months. No one else did that. Like I said before many times on deflate gate, it's like Brady said to himself don't you know who in the hades I am & that the rules don't apply to me? That's what royally ticks me off.

 

Now, to be fair, Roger Goodell got greedy over his overwhelming desire to make Brady accept the Well Report as opposed to just being suspended at least 1 game. I will concede that point completely.  

 

My other issue is this: Why appeal this decision Roger Goodell because even if the League wins their appeal Brady wouldn't in all likelihood be punished this season & if discipline came after this year the penalty would appear weak & transparent in scope. You lost Roger; Just drop it & do some damage control among your bosses the owners yourself.  

I agree with what you said about the 1 game suspension they should have just took it and leave it at that, and I know Pats fans like to rub it in but am glad Bradyʻs playing, did not want him concentrating solely on us week 6, and also agree with you on NFL just letting this go away already

[southwest1]

I agree with what you said about the 1 game suspension they should have just took it and leave it at that, and I know Pats fans like to rub it in but am glad Bradyʻs playing, did not want him concentrating solely on us week 6, and also agree with you on NFL just letting this go away already

Exactly 12DL, NE fans get to take a victory lap today. I will let them have their moment to bask in the glow of the sunlight. Jeffery Kessler definitely earned his legal fees. No doubt about it.

 

Bring on the military fly over & the Star Spangled Banner as soon as possible. 

[DougDew]

2 questions: 1. Just because one franchise has been accused of bending the rules of professional competition in recent months, which they were deemed not guilty of committing, why is it necessary to pose a false hypothesis or unfounded assumption that you hope the Colts never cheat themselves? 2. How is NASCAR discipline relevant to NFL discipline when the way in which both sports are performed are completely different? 

 

Look DD, you can't treat one NFL team's infraction like an inevitable situation that all football franchises commit & will eventually get busted for. My whole issue with deflate gate is how Brady handled himself & the horrible damage control fiasco that followed that Brady completely controlled & fumbled all by himself. Did he win his case? Yes, but how hard is it to admit that he screwed up, made a mistake at that initial press conference & say "I like my balls lower than normal on the PSI spectrum. I had no idea what the regulations actually were. I take full responsibility for my error & I can promise you that this violation will never occur on my watch again. It's my fault not my locker room equipment guys."

 

If Brady had done this, this scandal would have died instantaneously. But, he didn't which is why I can't let it go because so many Patriot fans are acting like only Roger Goodell is the big bad, power drunk wolf here. Brady dragged this whole situation out for months. No one else did that. Like I said before many times on deflate gate, it's like Brady said to himself don't you know who in the hades I am & that the rules don't apply to me? That's what royally ticks me off.

 

Now, to be fair, Roger Goodell got greedy over his overwhelming desire to make Brady accept the Well Report as opposed to just being suspended at least 1 game. I will concede that point completely.  

 

My other issue is this: Why appeal this decision Roger Goodell because even if the League wins their appeal Brady wouldn't in all likelihood be punished this season & if discipline came after this year the penalty would appear weak & transparent in scope. You lost Roger; Just drop it & do some damage control among your bosses the owners yourself.

First of all, thank you for reading my long post.

To answer your questions, a point of the post was to draw a distinction between cheating as defined by the sports leagues themselves and what is defined as illegal by the courts. They two are different things. A lot of people are intentionally NOT making that distinction because they want to create a false high standard for defining cheating, thereby making it easier to do it. They set a standard they know the NFL will fail. There never was evidence to prove intent or who was responsible, but that shouldn't matter. Brady and his posse successfully argued it did. Its a shame so many fell for it.

The Pats cheated. They competed with equipment that didn't conform to the rules, and the only way the equipment could not have conformed to the rules is if it had been tampered with after inspection. Just like car racing. But yet nobody in the media complains about NASCAR, or challenges NASCAR leadership, for not having legal proof that a mechanic adjusted a wing before the victory is disqualified. Same thing with horse racing and a jockey's weight. No proof of who did it or the intent, but the results and facts themselves is enough justification to vacate a victory.

How many Indy 500s would be tainted if the winning car didn't conform to specs?

And in Golf, if Tiger Woods set the course record and blew away the competition by ten strokes, he could sincerely put the wrong score on the scorecard and be disqualified. Writing a number on a card in no way contributes to him blowing away the competition on the course or how he well played, yet the victory is still vacated and the course record is erased.

Yes, rules matter. Winning isn't everything or the only thing..... rules are.

Comparing sports self governing rule enforcement to legal system standards is a double standard that is intentionally used by the people who defend not-getting-caught-cheating as a method of getting ahead. They don't mistakenly use it.

If the Colts or other teams play that card, yes, it will make the sport unwatcheable. It would probably push even more parents to sign their kids up for fall soccer or Lacrosse instead of getting them involved with football.

[NYCfan]

The NFL has been involved in some high-profile legal cases lately, which is a real shame. Most of these cases involve how the NFL establishes and enforces its own rules, rules designed to police itself and its members from conducting themselves in a way that would be detrimental to the game. Most sports league have a governing body, and most leagues try to include members that are on board with the culture it wants to establish, and kicks out those that aren't. Somehow for the NFL, this process has gotten tied up in the court system. Its a shame that the NFL allows this to happen.

In golf, the PGA relies upon is own players to police themselves. This is a wise business decision. There can't be enough video cameras and officials following golfers around to ensure there is sufficient legal evidence to prove cheating and to make a suspension stick. How many cameras would it take to see if every players golf ball moved upon clearing an errant blade of grass? The PGA relies upon the integrity of its players to uphold the rules...for the good of all of its members.

In NASCAR, cars are inspected before and after a race. If a team's car has a car out of specs, its assumed the mechanics built it that way, not that some weather phenomenon bent a wing out of conformance. There doesn't have to be a video of a mechanic changing the wing or a witness admitting they did it in order for NASCAR to assume it was intentional. The rule is that you must drive a car that conforms to the standards. If you drive a car that has been found to not conform to the standards, you are guilty of violating the rules and are subject to punishmenmt. Simple.

Its a shame that my sport, the NFL, listens to all of the chatter...the tactic employed by some that seeks to create an impossibly high standard by which to deem someone a rules violator. I hope the NFL does not spend the money, buy enough cameras, employ enough police-ers of policy, to keep up with these people. I hope they save money and simply kick them out of the sport.

I hope that my team, the Colts, never seeks to break the rules. Having a working definition of cheating being "enough legal evidence to prove" would eventually make professional football an unwatcheable product. It would reduce the game to a game of "who can get away with what" rather than a game of skill and intelligence.

I hope that fellow Colts fans use whatever means possible to pressure our team's management and staff to hold the integrity of the game as their highest goal. For the fans, its not winning a SuperBowl that's entertaining and makes the sport fun to watch...its the PROCESS by which teams compete to get there. Knowingly and willfully breaking the rules of that process, with a goal to devise a scheme as to not get caught cheating by the court system, would put the revenue generation stream of the NFL at risk, since the sport would no longer be entertaining or much fun to watch.

 

 

Integrity?  Huh?

Process? Huh?

 

Ask Sean Payton and the New Orlean Saints...or read this...really read it..

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-arrogance-of-roger-goodell-215731603.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma

 

 

"Misread the tailored suits and furry Uggs and styled haircuts at your own peril. The guy is tough.

"Tom Brady wouldn't quit, wouldn't rattle, wouldn't back down.

"Tom Brady wouldn't concede an inch and thus, by bringing in the lawyers, by bringing in the brilliant Jeffrey Kessler, he was able to get the whole ball of nonsense into Richard M. Berman's court of law, a place that lives far from riotous cable television debate shows and internet message boards.

"Brady's appeal hearing with the NFL had been a complete farce, so outrageous that Goodell himself misrepresented Brady's own testimony in his decision, finding him guilty of something he never even said. Comparative punishments were invented, levels of guilt shifted, basic fairness was trampled upon."

[DougDew]

Integrity?  Huh?

Process? Huh?

 

Ask Sean Payton and the New Orlean Saints...or read this...really read it..

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-arrogance-of-roger-goodell-215731603.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma

 

 

"Misread the tailored suits and furry Uggs and styled haircuts at your own peril. The guy is tough.

"Tom Brady wouldn't quit, wouldn't rattle, wouldn't back down.

"Tom Brady wouldn't concede an inch and thus, by bringing in the lawyers, by bringing in the brilliant Jeffrey Kessler, he was able to get the whole ball of nonsense into Richard M. Berman's court of law, a place that lives far from riotous cable television debate shows and internet message boards.

"Brady's appeal hearing with the NFL had been a complete farce, so outrageous that Goodell himself misrepresented Brady's own testimony in his decision, finding him guilty of something he never even said. Comparative punishments were invented, levels of guilt shifted, basic fairness was trampled upon."

The article and writer supports my point perfectly. Some people have this arrogant attitude that, I associate with the 1960's, that equates challenging authority with some sort of badge of honor. Its so transparent, old, and tired.

Its not about competitors forgoing a chance to win out of some stereotyped nicey-nice code of integrity with each other. Its about a sports league and its members abiding by the league commissioners ruling even if they disagree with it, knowing that the commish's intent is to maintain the value of the league. Rulings that are directly tied to events on the field of play are especially important.

Challenging that authority is usually done for the short term selfish gain of players and coaches who want to cash in just before retirement, like Lance Armstrong, leaving the people who are still there with the responsibility of repairing the devalued product.

I like the Colts. I hope Irsay doesn't tolerate such behavior from grigs or pags. I want to care about the Colts even after they are gone.

[MB-ColtsFan]

2 questions: 1. Just because one franchise has been accused of bending the rules of professional competition in recent months, which they were deemed not guilty of committing, why is it necessary to pose a false hypothesis or unfounded assumption that you hope the Colts never cheat themselves? 2. How is NASCAR discipline relevant to NFL discipline when the way in which both sports are performed are completely different?

Look DD, you can't treat one NFL team's infraction like an inevitable situation that all football franchises commit & will eventually get busted for. My whole issue with deflate gate is how Brady handled himself & the horrible damage control fiasco that followed that Brady completely controlled & fumbled all by himself. Did he win his case? Yes, but how hard is it to admit that he screwed up, made a mistake at that initial press conference & say "I like my balls lower than normal on the PSI spectrum. I had no idea what the regulations actually were. I take full responsibility for my error & I can promise you that this violation will never occur on my watch again. It's my fault not my locker room equipment guys."

If Brady had done this, this scandal would have died instantaneously. But, he didn't which is why I can't let it go because so many Patriot fans are acting like only Roger Goodell is the big bad, power drunk wolf here. Brady dragged this whole situation out for months. No one else did that. Like I said before many times on deflate gate, it's like Brady said to himself don't you know who in the hades I am & that the rules don't apply to me? That's what royally ticks me off.

Now, to be fair, Roger Goodell got greedy over his overwhelming desire to make Brady accept the Well Report as opposed to just being suspended at least 1 game. I will concede that point completely.

My other issue is this: Why appeal this decision Roger Goodell because even if the League wins their appeal Brady wouldn't in all likelihood be punished this season & if discipline came after this year the penalty would appear weak & transparent in scope. You lost Roger; Just drop it & do some damage control among your bosses the owners yourself.

PREACH!!

[BlueShoe]

The NFL has been involved in some high-profile legal cases lately, which is a real shame. Most of these cases involve how the NFL establishes and enforces its own rules, rules designed to police itself and its members from conducting themselves in a way that would be detrimental to the game. Most sports league have a governing body, and most leagues try to include members that are on board with the culture it wants to establish, and kicks out those that aren't. Somehow for the NFL, this process has gotten tied up in the court system. Its a shame that the NFL allows this to happen.

In golf, the PGA relies upon is own players to police themselves. This is a wise business decision. There can't be enough video cameras and officials following golfers around to ensure there is sufficient legal evidence to prove cheating and to make a suspension stick. How many cameras would it take to see if every players golf ball moved upon clearing an errant blade of grass? The PGA relies upon the integrity of its players to uphold the rules...for the good of all of its members.

In NASCAR, cars are inspected before and after a race. If a team's car has a car out of specs, its assumed the mechanics built it that way, not that some weather phenomenon bent a wing out of conformance. There doesn't have to be a video of a mechanic changing the wing or a witness admitting they did it in order for NASCAR to assume it was intentional. The rule is that you must drive a car that conforms to the standards. If you drive a car that has been found to not conform to the standards, you are guilty of violating the rules and are subject to punishmenmt. Simple.

Its a shame that my sport, the NFL, listens to all of the chatter...the tactic employed by some that seeks to create an impossibly high standard by which to deem someone a rules violator. I hope the NFL does not spend the money, buy enough cameras, employ enough police-ers of policy, to keep up with these people. I hope they save money and simply kick them out of the sport.

I hope that my team, the Colts, never seeks to break the rules. Having a working definition of cheating being "enough legal evidence to prove" would eventually make professional football an unwatcheable product. It would reduce the game to a game of "who can get away with what" rather than a game of skill and intelligence.

I hope that fellow Colts fans use whatever means possible to pressure our team's management and staff to hold the integrity of the game as their highest goal. For the fans, its not winning a SuperBowl that's entertaining and makes the sport fun to watch...its the PROCESS by which teams compete to get there. Knowingly and willfully breaking the rules of that process, with a goal to devise a scheme as to not get caught cheating by the court system, would put the revenue generation stream of the NFL at risk, since the sport would no longer be entertaining or much fun to watch.

 

I have been an avid Colts fan for over 30+ years; never missing a game. However, the NFL has lost it's flavor to me and I don't get as excited as I once did. It just does not feel the same to me anymore, because it seems fixed to me. Whether that is true or not, I find it harder to defend the NFL as I once did.

 

Golf is becoming my sport of choice because it has the most integrity of any sport. See Danny Lee a few months ago. He just lost his focus on the rules for a minute which cost him an opportunity at a playoff. He is not a dirty player (no PGA player is), and just made a simple mistake. However, the rules are strictly enforced and he was punished with an extra stroke. 

 

I am actually getting tired of the NFL and its nonsense. When we add all of the issues surrounding the NFL up, the equation leads me to believe that the NFL is on its way down. It is a shame, and a very sad destruction to witness. I doubt that within 20 years the NFL is king of the sports world. The reign of the NFL is on the decline, at least in my eyes it is. It won't be long before I despise the NFL. It is just a matter of time for me to bail.

[CoachLite]

Apparently, legal agreements between parties are just a suggestion. The CBA laws are a cr*p-shoot, and is capricious. I'm sick of the whole mess and will find other ways to spend my time.

[DougDew]

I have been an avid Colts fan for over 30+ years; never missing a game. However, the NFL has lost it's flavor to me and I don't get as excited as I once did. It just does not feel the same to me anymore, because it seems fixed to me. Whether that is true or not, I find it harder to defend the NFL as I once did.

 

Golf is becoming my sport of choice because it has the most integrity of any sport. See Danny Lee a few months ago. He just lost his focus on the rules for a minute which cost him an opportunity at a playoff. He is not a dirty player (no PGA player is), and just made a simple mistake. However, the rules are strictly enforced and he was punished with an extra stroke. 

 

I am actually getting tired of the NFL and its nonsense. When we add all of the issues surrounding the NFL up, the equation leads me to believe that the NFL is on its way down. It is a shame, and a very sad destruction to witness. I doubt that within 20 years the NFL is king of the sports world. The reign of the NFL is on the decline, at least in my eyes it is. It won't be long before I despise the NFL. It is just a matter of time for me to bail.

Yes,

Lets say that in preparation for an important game, Irsay, Grigs, and Pags, took upon a strategy to have the Colts Cbs intentionally hold and pass interfere (break the rules) on every passing play with the gamble or understanding that the refs aren't going to call every penalty and slow down the game. Some might think that is an intelligent strategy. Actually, a twelve year old could think of it (in fact they do, its the concept behind mob muggings and mob looting of retail stores) its just that most people by the time they are twelve have developed a sense of right and wrong, which doesn't allow their brain to go there. Those who share similar values are the ones you want to keep in your organization, the rogues you want to quickly dismiss.

If Irsay, Grigs, and Pags employed that strategy to help win a playoff game, that game would be torturous to watch...not because of the penalties that went uncalled...but because of the obvious coordinated ploy to get ahead by getting away with something.

It would make me less inclined to spend money on tickets and merchandise...to give my hard earned money over to people like that.

BTW, with the pervert problem we have these days, is it even legal for a company or business to put a video camera inside of a bathroom? If my way of success was to continually find ways to cheat and get away with it, I would forage for legal loopholes that would eliminate the ability to prove that I cheated, and I would have my operatives commit the offense in a bathroom. Just sayin....

[Cynjin]

2 questions: 1. Just because one franchise has been accused of bending the rules of professional competition in recent months, which they were deemed not guilty of committing, why is it necessary to pose a false hypothesis or unfounded assumption that you hope the Colts never cheat themselves? 2. How is NASCAR discipline relevant to NFL discipline when the way in which both sports are performed are completely different? 

 

Look DD, you can't treat one NFL team's infraction like an inevitable situation that all football franchises commit & will eventually get busted for. My whole issue with deflate gate is how Brady handled himself & the horrible damage control fiasco that followed that Brady completely controlled & fumbled all by himself. Did he win his case? Yes, but how hard is it to admit that he screwed up, made a mistake at that initial press conference & say "I like my balls lower than normal on the PSI spectrum. I had no idea what the regulations actually were. I take full responsibility for my error & I can promise you that this violation will never occur on my watch again. It's my fault not my locker room equipment guys."

 

If Brady had done this, this scandal would have died instantaneously. But, he didn't which is why I can't let it go because so many Patriot fans are acting like only Roger Goodell is the big bad, power drunk wolf here. Brady dragged this whole situation out for months. No one else did that. Like I said before many times on deflate gate, it's like Brady said to himself don't you know who in the hades I am & that the rules don't apply to me? That's what royally ticks me off.

 

Now, to be fair, Roger Goodell got greedy over his overwhelming desire to make Brady accept the Well Report as opposed to just being suspended at least 1 game. I will concede that point completely.  

 

My other issue is this: Why appeal this decision Roger Goodell because even if the League wins their appeal Brady wouldn't in all likelihood be punished this season & if discipline came after this year the penalty would appear weak & transparent in scope. You lost Roger; Just drop it & do some damage control among your bosses the owners yourself.  

 

In regards to the first bolded, I was fairly busy yesterday, but I was not aware the judge determined that Brady was not guilty.  My understanding was that the judge was ruling on if the process was fair or not, which he determined was unfair.

 

As far as the second bolded statement, this has to do with how much power the NFL commissioner is going to have.  The NFL wants the commissioner to have more power and the NFLPA wants him to have far less.  That is why the NFL is going to appeal, it really has very little to do with whatever infraction occurred.

[southwest1]

In regards to the first bolded, I was fairly busy yesterday, but I was not aware the judge determined that Brady was not guilty.  My understanding was that the judge was ruling on if the process was fair or not, which he determined was unfair.

 

As far as the second bolded statement, this has to do with how much power the NFL commissioner is going to have.  The NFL wants the commissioner to have more power and the NFLPA wants him to have far less.  That is why the NFL is going to appeal, it really has very little to do with whatever infraction occurred.

Technically, your right Cynjin Judge Berman was chastising the League over process liberties that it did not have the basis to enforce in terms of the duration of the suspension itself or the conclusions the Commissioner drew on an unfounded PED violation by specific PED standards. My only point was that Brady won the same as a not guilty verdict because he was not required to sit down for even 1 single regular season game. The goal here was to illustrate to the rest of the players & coaches in the NFL that no single player is bigger than the shield itself. That's why I'm mad at Goodell & consider this ruling a not guilty verdict on Brady's behalf. 

 

Yes, I realize that Goodell has every right to appeal Judge Berman's decision & that this current phase of deflate gate is really a urination contest over which side the owners or the players have more power now & the decision to reject this verdict is just Roger's way of saying that he's not giving up his CBA power & authority without a fight. My problem with the decision to go forward with deflate gate by the Commish means that even if Brady is punished later & forced to sit out regular season games it's all meaningless if Brady does serve his suspension this season. If Brady & the NE Patriots won back to back SBs in consecutive years again no NFL fan will care about a suspension imposed the year after the alleged violation occurred. Hades, NE fans might look at future suspensions & appeals episodes as a good luck SB omen now. I'm kidding here a little bit, but just my luck this very SB encore scenario would unfold exactly as I described it. LOL! 

[southwest1]

First of all, thank you for reading my long post.

To answer your questions, a point of the post was to draw a distinction between cheating as defined by the sports leagues themselves and what is defined as illegal by the courts. They two are different things. A lot of people are intentionally NOT making that distinction because they want to create a false high standard for defining cheating, thereby making it easier to do it. They set a standard they know the NFL will fail. There never was evidence to prove intent or who was responsible, but that shouldn't matter. Brady and his posse successfully argued it did. Its a shame so many fell for it.

The Pats cheated. They competed with equipment that didn't conform to the rules, and the only way the equipment could not have conformed to the rules is if it had been tampered with after inspection. Just like car racing. But yet nobody in the media complains about NASCAR, or challenges NASCAR leadership, for not having legal proof that a mechanic adjusted a wing before the victory is disqualified. Same thing with horse racing and a jockey's weight. No proof of who did it or the intent, but the results and facts themselves is enough justification to vacate a victory.

How many Indy 500s would be tainted if the winning car didn't conform to specs?

And in Golf, if Tiger Woods set the course record and blew away the competition by ten strokes, he could sincerely put the wrong score on the scorecard and be disqualified. Writing a number on a card in no way contributes to him blowing away the competition on the course or how he well played, yet the victory is still vacated and the course record is erased.

Yes, rules matter. Winning isn't everything or the only thing..... rules are.

Comparing sports self governing rule enforcement to legal system standards is a double standard that is intentionally used by the people who defend not-getting-caught-cheating as a method of getting ahead. They don't mistakenly use it.

If the Colts or other teams play that card, yes, it will make the sport unwatcheable. It would probably push even more parents to sign their kids up for fall soccer or Lacrosse instead of getting them involved with football.

I appreciate your well reasoned post as well DD. Thank you. After I read your initial reply a 2nd time it hit the theme you were shooting for: There's a comfort in well defined rules among different sports leagues that explain in great detail what the rules are & the specific punishment that will accompany a team or player who violates a written stipulation. I especially like the notion that "No proof of who did it or the intent, but the results and facts themselves is enough justification to vacate a victory."

 

Essentially here's the rule, if you disregard it, the powers that be will strip you of your title or ability to even compete today. No prolonged waiting period shifting thru prosecution vs defense attorney arguments & hearing the final verdict. You break it NASCAR automatically assumes you bought it & take full responsibility for the specific violation. I like that, especially testing cars before & after a race gives you a baseline to work from for comparison purposes. 

 

Exactly rules do matter & that's why whenever any anybody says NE would have won the AFC Championship Game playing with beach balls, nerf balls, or medicine balls it infuriates me because rules exist to level the playing field for everybody & it cheapens any sport to infer that NE would kick INDY's caboose in that game anyway so who gives a crap if they were below PSI levels in their game footballs. 

 

To be fair to NE, 1 could make the same argument that Roger Goodell broke the rules & spirit of the CBA by imposing penalties on players for disciplinary problems far beyond his scope & not exactly uniform in the punishment he handed out from player to player. 

 

I guess to me it bothers me when fans say or imply that the results performance wise matter more than the rule that is indeed broken. The implication being that Brady won the Championship Game in such overwhelming dominance that lower PSI levels almost seem insignificant. If you start to downplay or undercut 1 rule then all the NFL rules are in jeopardy now or they are in the process of being watered down, diluted, & diminished to a large degree over time if left unchecked or preserved in scope. 

[DougDew]

I appreciate your well reasoned post as well DD. Thank you. After I read your initial reply a 2nd time it hit the theme you were shooting for: There's a comfort in well defined rules among different sports leagues that explain in great detail what the rules are & the specific punishment that will accompany a team or player who violates a written stipulation. I especially like the notion that "No proof of who did it or the intent, but the results and facts themselves is enough justification to vacate a victory."

 

Essentially here's the rule, if you disregard it, the powers that be will strip you of your title or ability to even compete today. No prolonged waiting period shifting thru prosecution vs defense attorney arguments & hearing the final verdict. You break it NASCAR automatically assumes you bought it & take full responsibility for the specific violation. I like that, especially testing cars before & after a race gives you a baseline to work from for comparison purposes. 

 

Exactly rules do matter & that's why whenever any anybody says NE would have won the AFC Championship Game playing with beach balls, nerf balls, or medicine balls it infuriates me because rules exist to level the playing field for everybody & it cheapens any sport to infer that NE would kick INDY's caboose in that game anyway so who gives a crap if they were below PSI levels in their game footballs. 

 

To be fair to NE, 1 could make the same argument that Roger Goodell broke the rules & spirit of the CBA by imposing penalties on players for disciplinary problems far beyond his scope & not exactly uniform in the punishment he handed out from player to player. 

 

I guess to me it bothers me when fans say or imply that the results performance wise matter more than the rule that is indeed broken. The implication being that Brady won the Championship Game in such overwhelming dominance that lower PSI levels almost seem insignificant. If you start to downplay or undercut 1 rule then all the NFL rules are in jeopardy now or they are in the process of being watered down, diluted, & diminished to a large degree over time if left unchecked or preserved in scope.

To put the thought more simply.

1.In sports leagues, the accused is ASSUMED guilty, without proof of intent, and punishment is handed down accordingly. Its the rules of the club.

2.In civilian court, the accused is assumed innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Trying to use the principles of the second to support punishment in the first is flawed analysis. Brady, Pats fans, and many in the media have fooled a lot of people by doing this...almost since day one.

But smart people in fly-over-country never fell for it..(smiley face emoticon if it worked)

[southwest1]

To put the thought more simply.

1.In sports leagues, the accused is ASSUMED guilty, without proof of intent, and punishment is handed down accordingly. Its the rules of the club.

2.In civilian court, the accused is assumed innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Trying to use the principles of the second to support punishment in the first is flawed analysis. Brady, Pats fans, and many in the media have fooled a lot of people by doing this...almost since day one.

But smart people in fly-over-country never fell for it..(smiley face emoticon if it worked)

NE fans would probably ask the question: But what happens if to use your NASCAR example that the leader of a pit crew never did anything wrong, the car's instruments were off/malfunctioning, & the driver & owner still got punished? 

 

My counter to that argument would be this: Once everybody in the professional racing community knows that all enforcement protocols/penalties are uniformly & equally applied without exception regardless of how famous the driver is or how many trophies the owner has won; every other team on the track in that sport will fall in line & accept any penalty dished out because no team is given special treatment. 

 

Nice debating with you DD. I like your fresh perspective in this thread. 

[southwest1]

Integrity?  Huh?

Process? Huh?

 

Ask Sean Payton and the New Orlean Saints...or read this...really read it..

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-arrogance-of-roger-goodell-215731603.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma

 

 

"Misread the tailored suits and furry Uggs and styled haircuts at your own peril. The guy is tough.

"Tom Brady wouldn't quit, wouldn't rattle, wouldn't back down.

"Tom Brady wouldn't concede an inch and thus, by bringing in the lawyers, by bringing in the brilliant Jeffrey Kessler, he was able to get the whole ball of nonsense into Richard M. Berman's court of law, a place that lives far from riotous cable television debate shows and internet message boards.

"Brady's appeal hearing with the NFL had been a complete farce, so outrageous that Goodell himself misrepresented Brady's own testimony in his decision, finding him guilty of something he never even said. Comparative punishments were invented, levels of guilt shifted, basic fairness was trampled upon."

What's your point to all this? "Discretion is the better part of valor?" Know when to walk away & back down as opposed to charging head first into a burning building before considering all the dangerous repercussions? Give me a break...

 

Tell me sir with all due respect, does Tom Brady share any culpability in any of his actions once Deflate Gate broke & the Wells Report was released at all? Remember when Brady said he would respond to the Wells Report in short order at that university gathering & he remained silent for several weeks? Brady are you a cheater? I don't believe so. Who in the hades says that honestly? If I was accused of compromising the integrity of a sport that made me a household name & got me a supermodel wife, I will guarantee you that I won't be hiding behind a high priced team of lawyers led by Jeffery Kessler okay. I'm clearing up any confusion immediately when my darn reputation is on the line. 

 

It just boggles my mind how so many Patriot fans wanna lay deflate gate completely at Goodell's feet & not scrutinize their QB's actions 1 bit. It's sheerly astounding to me. Denial ain't a river in Egypt man. Wow...

 

Yes, Goodell made a ton of mistakes & miscalculations yes, but let's not pretend that Brady literally walks on water, can do no wrong, & made no miscalculations himself alright. 

 

I don't care what anybody says a 4 time SB Champion who throws the ball for over 10 years wants me to believe that he has no idea how game balls were under inflated or that he had no idea what his equipment guys were doing without his knowledge or consent. Please. I'm not that darn gullible.  

 

Oh yeah, this 'Free Brady' t-shirt nonsense is so overblown it's ridiculous. Stop acting like Brady was unlawfully imprisoned like Nelson Mandela & pardoned after an almost 30 year sentence okay. Brady didn't exactly suffer. Was he denied access to his lavish lifestyle or denied interactions with his wife & children over the span of deflate gate? No, he most certainly was not.   

[JPFolks]

2 questions: 1. Just because one franchise has been accused of bending the rules of professional competition in recent months, which they were deemed not guilty of committing, 

What?  They specifically said this latest ruling DID NOT speak to whether the Patriots and Brady were guilty or not, but as to whether the NFL followed the process correctly.  No one has been deemed "not guilty" of anything, in fact the opposite is true.  The NFL has found Brady and the Patriots guilty and the only question remaining is the appropriate process and authority for punishment.  That is the fact legally, not as you stated. 

[southwest1]

What?  They specifically said this latest ruling DID NOT speak to whether the Patriots and Brady were guilty or not, but as to whether the NFL followed the process correctly.  No one has been deemed "not guilty" of anything, in fact the opposite is true.  The NFL has found Brady and the Patriots guilty and the only question remaining is the appropriate process and authority for punishment.  That is the fact legally, not as you stated. 

The decision yesterday by Judge Berman was an enormous victory for Tom Brady & considering that Tom was not required to miss any regular seasons games this year, it's basically a not guilty verdict JPF. 

 

All anybody cared about in INDY was Brady sitting down. That never happened. Brady won & nobody really cares about legal jargon at this point. 

[NYCfan]

The article and writer supports my point perfectly. Some people have this arrogant attitude that, I associate with the 1960's, that equates challenging authority with some sort of badge of honor. Its so transparent, old, and tired.

Its not about competitors forgoing a chance to win out of some stereotyped nicey-nice code of integrity with each other. Its about a sports league and its members abiding by the league commissioners ruling even if they disagree with it, knowing that the commish's intent is to maintain the value of the league. Rulings that are directly tied to events on the field of play are especially important.

Challenging that authority is usually done for the short term selfish gain of players and coaches who want to cash in just before retirement, like Lance Armstrong, leaving the people who are still there with the responsibility of repairing the devalued product.

I like the Colts. I hope Irsay doesn't tolerate such behavior from grigs or pags. I want to care about the Colts even after they are gone.

What's any of that have to do with whether balls were actually deflated during the AFCCG?  They weren't.  The "Pash/Wells Report" (as Judge Berman describes it) itself says that the balls were within the expected range on one gauge and just 0.23 psi on average below it on the other.  0.23 psi equates to the weight of a toothpick and is within the margin of error of any test.  There was no "deflation."  There was no "crime."  Brady, as Judge Berman pointed out, did better in the second half than he did in the first with the allegedly "deflated" balls.  

 

There was no "independent" investigation, as Judge Berman pointed out.  The entire thing was a power play by Roger Goodell that blew up in his face.

 

Look, I'm not a Patriots fan.  As I have said many times on this Board, I'm an Eagles fan and * Tom Brady broke my heart when he beat my guys in the SB.  But, Justice is Justice.

[NYCfan]

What's your point to all this? "Discretion is the better part of valor?" Know when to walk away & back down as opposed to charging head first into a burning building before considering all the dangerous repercussions? Give me a break...

 

Tell me sir with all due respect, does Tom Brady share any culpability in any of his actions once Deflate Gate broke & the Wells Report was released at all? Remember when Brady said he would respond to the Wells Report in short order at that university gathering & he remained silent for several weeks? Brady are you a cheater? I don't believe so. Who in the hades says that honestly? If I was accused of compromising the integrity of a sport that made me a household name & got me a supermodel wife, I will guarantee you that I won't be hiding behind a high priced team of lawyers led by Jeffery Kessler okay. I'm clearing up any confusion immediately when my darn reputation is on the line. 

 

It just boggles my mind how so many Patriot fans wanna lay deflate gate completely at Goodell's feet & not scrutinize their QB's actions 1 bit. It's sheerly astounding to me. Denial ain't a river in Egypt man. Wow...

 

Yes, Goodell made a ton of mistakes & miscalculations yes, but let's not pretend that Brady literally walks on water, can do no wrong, & made no miscalculations himself alright. 

 

I don't care what anybody says a 4 time SB Champion who throws the ball for over 10 years wants me to believe that he has no idea how game balls were under inflated or that he had no idea what his equipment guys were doing without his knowledge or consent. Please. I'm not that darn gullible.  

 

Oh yeah, this 'Free Brady' t-shirt nonsense is so overblown it's ridiculous. Stop acting like Brady was unlawfully imprisoned like Nelson Mandela & pardoned after an almost 30 year sentence okay. Brady didn't exactly suffer. Was he denied access to his lavish lifestyle or denied interactions with his wife & children over the span of deflate gate? No, he most certainly was not.   

Brady and his legal team acknowledged that he should have handled the disposal of his Cell Phone in a better manner, even though he had been told by Wells that he would not be penalized for not turning it over since, like Brett Favre, he had exercised his collectively bargained right not to turn over his personal cell phone..  Brady even offered to sit a one game suspension for not co-operating in that manner with the League as part of a Settlement to which he was willing to agree.  But he has not offered, nor should he have to offer, to accept responsibility for a "crime" that the Pash/Wells report itself shows never even occurred.  

 

My point here is not to defend Tom Brady, whom I personally find to be a smug know it all, but to point out that if Goodell could try to get away with this against a guy like Brady, we can all just wonder what he might try to get away with against lesser known players.  And, apparently there is now a movement among several NFL owners to revisit Goodell's power in this regard, since he is now 0--5 in Federal Court.

 

And to your point about the inflation level of the balls, the Pash/Wells report itself shows that, at most, the balls used in the first half of the game were "underinflated" by 0.23 PSI vs. the expected inflation pressure according to the Ideal Gas Law.  0.23 PSI equates to the weight of a toothpick.  So, yeah, I guess I am saying that he might not have been aware of that.  

 

I think a lot of people are saying a lot of things without knowing the facts of this case, which only a Federal Judge born, bred, educated and practicing in New York City has allowed to come to light.

[DougDew]

NE fans would probably ask the question: But what happens if to use your NASCAR example that the leader of a pit crew never did anything wrong, the car's instruments were off/malfunctioning, & the driver & owner still got punished?

If a team got off because of that, I think that other pit crews would find ways to sabotage their instruments just before inspection...perhaps on the last few laps of the race when the instruments don't matter so much.

Every cheating activity needs a well thought out plan of concealment.

Which is why you go into a bathroom, where there are not cameras and no proof, to perpetrate it.

The mistake is for millions of sheep to believe that a sports governing body needs proof before disciplining.

But I don't want this to be about Deflategate...we've got plenty of pages on that.

[DougDew]

What's any of that have to do with whether balls were actually deflated during the AFCCG?  They weren't.  The "Pash/Wells Report" (as Judge Berman describes it) itself says that the balls were within the expected range on one gauge and just 0.23 psi on average below it on the other.  0.23 psi equates to the weight of a toothpick and is within the margin of error of any test.  There was no "deflation."  There was no "crime."  Brady, as Judge Berman pointed out, did better in the second half than he did in the first with the allegedly "deflated" balls.  

 

There was no "independent" investigation, as Judge Berman pointed out.  The entire thing was a power play by Roger Goodell that blew up in his face.

 

Look, I'm not a Patriots fan.  As I have said many times on this Board, I'm an Eagles fan and * Tom Brady broke my heart when he beat my guys in the SB.  But, Justice is Justice.

Okay. I see your point.

I didn't want this thread to be about Deflate gate, but more about how quickly we resort to introducing legal discussions when the problem is merely about violating the rules of a game. And that we should all be disappointed in our respective teams if they degrade the legitimacy and entertainment value of the NFL on the way to hanging a banner.

[NYCfan]

I keep asking myself the same question: If Luck had conducted himself in the same manner as Brady did following the SB, would I hold Andrew's feet to the fire as rigorously too? Absolutely I would. 

 

NE fans wanna argue law, semantics, & overzealous penalties while the rest of the country asks common sense questions like Don't you expect your QB to explain what happened in his own words or why he has no interest in determining how this situation unfolded at all? Why did Robert Kraft originally say he accepted the loss of draft picks for the greater good & the benefit of the league & later express regrets & reservations over accepting this fine/loss of picks? 

 

So does this mean that 31 other team owners no longer matter to you? Please elaborate Mr. Kraft...

I'm a Philly fan, not a NE fan, so I'll let them speak up here.  But Brady has not only explained it in his own words, but has done so under oath and pain of perjury.  He's said he didn't do it and he wasn't aware of anyone improperly lowering the air pressure in the balls he used.  

 

I can't explain why Kraft did what he did.  Personally, I think he's an older gentleman who has done his best work and should probably turn his team over to his son...he has a lot to be proud of...four rings and six SB appearances in the last 15 years...a lot better than my Eagles' two appearances and zero, zip, zilch rings since 1960 when it wasn't even called the Super Bowl.  But, if I were asked my opinion, I'd suggest it's time for him to retire.

[NYCfan]

Okay. I see your point.

I didn't want this thread to be about Deflate gate, but more about how quickly we resort to introducing legal discussions when the problem is merely about violating the rules of a game. And that we should all be disappointed in our respective teams if they degrade the legitimacy and entertainment value of the NFL on the way to hanging a banner.

We agree.  We live in a litigious society where everything seems to have to end up in Court.

Good luck to your team this year...unless they're playing my Eagles in San Francisco in February!

[JPFolks]

The decision yesterday by Judge Berman was an enormous victory for Tom Brady & considering that Tom was not required to miss any regular seasons games this year, it's basically a not guilty verdict JPF. 

 

All anybody cared about in INDY was Brady sitting down. That never happened. Brady won & nobody really cares about legal jargon at this point. 

You're right that we don't care about the legal jargon.. any non homer/Patriot fan knows that the deflator wasn't about weight loss and magically the Colts didn't predict randomly that something was up with the balls only to have all the texts, the sneaking away with the balls into the bathroom and the varying air pressures at half time plus all the rest... at one extreme, OJ got away with murder, on the other extreme, Brady may have gotten away with deflating balls to his liking for years, leading to less fumbles than normal for the Patriots and his hand comfort and stated preference for under inflated balls (like when Gronk spikes it real hard... ha).  At least that little comfort advantage will be gone going forward and the NFL is appealing and perhaps he'll miss 4 games going into the playoffs instead or next year whenever the court process is over.  He was never missing the Colts game, so it didn't effect us one way or another.  And a simple heads up about the balls was all that was given in Grigson's notes about the upcoming game, the Colts did the right thing to notify a possible violation of league rules and their involvement was nothing unusual as people ask for a heads up about issues before games all the time.  And be real, Kraft didn't take those penalties for nothing no matter how much he's changing his tune now.     We're not going to change each others mind, so no biggie. 

[southwest1]

Brady and his legal team acknowledged that he should have handled the disposal of his Cell Phone in a better manner, even though he had been told by Wells that he would not be penalized for not turning it over since, like Brett Favre, he had exercised his collectively bargained right not to turn over his personal cell phone..  Brady even offered to sit a one game suspension for not co-operating in that manner with the League as part of a Settlement to which he was willing to agree.  But he has not offered, nor should he have to offer, to accept responsibility for a "crime" that the Pash/Wells report itself shows never even occurred.  

 

My point here is not to defend Tom Brady, whom I personally find to be a smug know it all, but to point out that if Goodell could try to get away with this against a guy like Brady, we can all just wonder what he might try to get away with against lesser known players.  And, apparently there is now a movement among several NFL owners to revisit Goodell's power in this regard, since he is now 0--5 in Federal Court.

 

And to your point about the inflation level of the balls, the Pash/Wells report itself shows that, at most, the balls used in the first half of the game were "underinflated" by 0.23 PSI vs. the expected inflation pressure according to the Ideal Gas Law.  0.23 PSI equates to the weight of a toothpick.  So, yeah, I guess I am saying that he might not have been aware of that.  

 

I think a lot of people are saying a lot of things without knowing the facts of this case, which only a Federal Judge born, bred, educated and practicing in New York City has allowed to come to light.

My point about deflated footballs has more to do with the fact that equipment guys in a room don't make a move on their own with Brady's consent over everything he wears on game day to the feel of his footballs. He knew exactly what he asked his ball boys to do. Plus, a guy as detailed as Brady is don't leave anything to chance. He's very thorough in everything he does to win week to week. He can't plead ignorance now not with a straight face anyway. 

 

I don't view each case as a collective commissioner loss courtwise, but on a case by case basis. Yes, Roger's batting average looks horrible on the surface but it's hard to glean a meaningful pattern of significance off a domestic abuse case [Ray Rice], a child abuse case [Adrian Peterson], a pay for QB punishment case [bounty Gate/gambling issue], & a unfair competitive advantage case [Deflate Gate]. Remember, domestic abuse & child abuse policies were never really in place when Goodell was named the new NFL Commissioner either. You can't hold a new leader responsible for something no other commissioner in professional football dealt with prior to Goodell's arrival on the scene. So to me, Bounty Gate & Deflate Gate are Rogers only 2 symbolic black eyes right now. If you wanna throw Greg Hardy in the mix, this falls under domestic violence & the guy paid off his fiancee to disappear to avoid a possible prison sentence by a jury after Hardy almost strangled her to death. The guy is worthless trash to me. Hardy I mean. 

 

I will give Brady credit for offering to sit down for 1 regular season game because validating the Wells Report meant nothing to me, but a visible sign that Brady would have been out 1 game was vital to showing the rest of the league that no one player can thumb their nose at an active investigation, but Goodell was too proud to take the gift he was offered. Grrr! 

 

If Goodell denied Brady's legal team the ability to question Pash directly, then yes that violated Brady's access to a fair trial/process. I cannot excuse that. 

[southwest1]

I'm a Philly fan, not a NE fan, so I'll let them speak up here.  But Brady has not only explained it in his own words, but has done so under oath and pain of perjury.  He's said he didn't do it and he wasn't aware of anyone improperly lowering the air pressure in the balls he used.  

 

I can't explain why Kraft did what he did.  Personally, I think he's an older gentleman who has done his best work and should probably turn his team over to his son...he has a lot to be proud of...four rings and six SB appearances in the last 15 years...a lot better than my Eagles' two appearances and zero, zip, zilch rings since 1960 when it wasn't even called the Super Bowl.  But, if I were asked my opinion, I'd suggest it's time for him to retire.

In fairness to you, I did jump the gun & falsely assume that you were a NE Patriot supporter of Tom Brady, which was a mistake on my part because you were merely illustrating why Jeffery Kessler won & Robert Goodell lost this case. I'm not gonna lie to ya though NYCfan. When a man [brady] states publicly at a university in front of a packed auditorium that he will address the Wells Report allegations & then he hides behind a high priced mouthpiece [Jeffery Kessler] I lose a ton of respect for him for 2 reasons: 1. Brady's not on trial for murder, child molestation, or tax fraud. It was only a 4 game suspension that should have been a 2 game suspension. 2. If a famous celebrity & SB Championship QB says "I will address these charges soon" while he's in a public venue don't you think that in the interest of complete transparency Brady would have a natl. press conference to fully disclose & explain to his fans & his detractors who doubted him initially based on that horrible press conference about are you a cheater the opportunity to redeem himself. When a guy says publicly that he will answer unfounded allegations made against him in a public setting & then only responds to these charges in a courtroom venue that's not a good look on the public relations front. It reminds me of a CEO who hides behind their corporate lawyers rather than address a disagreement or difference of opinion publicly as a man of the people.

 

I like Kraft & Brady still as a business man & a HOF QB but I just disagree in a few key moves they made in defending their positions during Deflate Gate which did them for harm than good.  

[southwest1]

You're right that we don't care about the legal jargon.. any non homer/Patriot fan knows that the deflator wasn't about weight loss and magically the Colts didn't predict randomly that something was up with the balls only to have all the texts, the sneaking away with the balls into the bathroom and the varying air pressures at half time plus all the rest... at one extreme, OJ got away with murder, on the other extreme, Brady may have gotten away with deflating balls to his liking for years, leading to less fumbles than normal for the Patriots and his hand comfort and stated preference for under inflated balls (like when Gronk spikes it real hard... ha).  At least that little comfort advantage will be gone going forward and the NFL is appealing and perhaps he'll miss 4 games going into the playoffs instead or next year whenever the court process is over.  He was never missing the Colts game, so it didn't effect us one way or another.  And a simple heads up about the balls was all that was given in Grigson's notes about the upcoming game, the Colts did the right thing to notify a possible violation of league rules and their involvement was nothing unusual as people ask for a heads up about issues before games all the time.  And be real, Kraft didn't take those penalties for nothing no matter how much he's changing his tune now.     We're not going to change each others mind, so no biggie. 

I agree completely JPF. That lame "weight loss" line & disappearing into the bathroom carrying the game balls during the AFC Championship Game with no urinal in it are incredibly darning pieces of evidence that no loyal NE fan can sweep neatly under the rug. Yeah, both sides are entrenched in their positions [NE fans & INDY fans] & neither side is moving on the innocence or guilt perspective of Tom Brady. 

[southwest1]

If a team got off because of that, I think that other pit crews would find ways to sabotage their instruments just before inspection...perhaps on the last few laps of the race when the instruments don't matter so much.

Every cheating activity needs a well thought out plan of concealment.

Which is why you go into a bathroom, where there are not cameras and no proof, to perpetrate it.

The mistake is for millions of sheep to believe that a sports governing body needs proof before disciplining.

But I don't want this to be about Deflategate...we've got plenty of pages on that.

Just like with WaterGate, the crime doesn't take you down. The coverup does because it's hard to remember what lie you told to which person after awhile like dating several women at once & pretending like you're in an exclusively monogamous relationship with each 1 at the same time. 

[NYCfan]

In fairness to you, I did jump the gun & falsely assume that you were a NE Patriot supporter of Tom Brady, which was a mistake on my part because you were merely illustrating why Jeffery Kessler won & Robert Goodell lost this case. I'm not gonna lie to ya though NYCfan. When a man [brady] states publicly at a university in front of a packed auditorium that he will address the Wells Report allegations & then he hides behind a high priced mouthpiece [Jeffery Kessler] I lose a ton of respect for him for 2 reasons: 1. Brady's not on trial for murder, child molestation, or tax fraud. It was only a 4 game suspension that should have been a 2 game suspension. 2. If a famous celebrity & SB Championship QB says "I will address these charges soon" while he's in a public venue don't you think that in the interest of complete transparency Brady would have a natl. press conference to fully disclose & explain to his fans & his detractors who doubted him initially based on that horrible press conference about are you a cheater the opportunity to redeem himself. When a guy says publicly that he will answer unfounded allegations made against him in a public setting & then only responds to these charges in a courtroom venue that's not a good look on the public relations front. It reminds me of a CEO who hides behind their corporate lawyers rather than address a disagreement or difference of opinion publicly as a man of the people.

 

I like Kraft & Brady still as a business man & a HOF QB but I just disagree in a few key moves they made in defending their positions during Deflate Gate which did them for harm than good.  

Fair enough and reasonably stated.  Brady mangled that first press conference.  He was getting bad advice at the time from his Agent.  His Agent was the same one who told him to destroy his Cell Phone.  

 

It still looks to me like Brady was railroaded...maybe this is the "Blue Collar Philadelphia-born Liberal" bias coming out of a guy whose dad was a Union Member all his life, but I don't think Management can do that kind of stuff to Labor and get away with it.  If Brady eventually "lawyered up" with Jeffrey Kessler, my feeling is "who could blame him?"...he was obviously dealing with a hostile opponent, who, according to a New York City Judge had deprived him not only of access to the co-author of what he called in his ruling, "the Pash/Wells Report," but also to some basic documents related to what the judge also referred to as an investigation that was "independent" in quotation marks.

 

The real irony in all of this, as was pointed out by a mediot on ESPN, is that, while the NFL made a big deal about Brady's destruction of his Cell Phone (and he should not have done that, even though Wells had told him that he would not be penalized for not turning it over), in the end a Federal Judge found that it was the NFL that had tried to conceal information from Brady.

 

But enough of that.  Let's talk some football.  Do you think Chip Kelly is nuts for keeping Tebow on my Eagles roster?  I think that two years from now people will be calling Kelly either a genius or an *.  i haven't decided which yet, but I do think that Kelly acts like he's still coaching in College sometimes...and Tebow was great in College...

[DougDew]

 

It still looks to me like Brady was railroaded...maybe this is the "Blue Collar Philadelphia-born Liberal" bias coming out of a guy whose dad was a Union Member all his life, but I don't think Management can do that kind of stuff to Labor and get away with it.

 

The real irony in all of this, as was pointed out by a mediot on ESPN, is that, while the NFL made a big deal about Brady's destruction of his Cell Phone (and he should not have done that, even though Wells had told him that he would not be penalized for not turning it over), in the end a Federal Judge found that it was the NFL that had tried to conceal information from Brady.

 

 

That's an important statement because every business owner and NFL team owner needs to understand their fan base.  

 

A lot of fans probably believe there is an inherent, ingrained, unfair treatment on the part of people who run things.  That in the absence of documentation of fair treatment, when there is no documentation or insufficient documentation to show fair treatment, they default to assume treatment was unfair.   Management has to prove they were fair.  That's fine if they believe that, and its probably true in many cases.

 

The judge didn't bother to weed that out of his decision.  He used common labor law, which is founded on the BASIC PRINCIPAL that employees can't negotiate deals on their own merits, but need strength in numbers.  Union members organize because they are powerless individually.  Tom Brady isn't.  He is powerful enough to negotiate his own deals, including disciplinary actions, outside of a union contract.  He also wields certain power on the team and with subordinates that the average union member doesn't.  The judge ignored that reality and defaulted to the protection of the common worker  "management needs to show proof of fairness" interpretation.

 

Brady's position in his organization isn't remotely similar to the positions held by most normal union members, so the judge should have used less normal precedents. 

 

I'm sure pags, grigs, and Irsay gauge the leanings of their fan base and would understand the lack of tolerance many of us would have for the arguments that Brady and his fans have made ...even if it was by Andrew Luck...on the way to something marginally consequential like a cloth banner and a shiny trophy.

[southwest1]

Fair enough and reasonably stated.  Brady mangled that first press conference.  He was getting bad advice at the time from his Agent.  His Agent was the same one who told him to destroy his Cell Phone.  

 

It still looks to me like Brady was railroaded...maybe this is the "Blue Collar Philadelphia-born Liberal" bias coming out of a guy whose dad was a Union Member all his life, but I don't think Management can do that kind of stuff to Labor and get away with it.  If Brady eventually "lawyered up" with Jeffrey Kessler, my feeling is "who could blame him?"...he was obviously dealing with a hostile opponent, who, according to a New York City Judge had deprived him not only of access to the co-author of what he called in his ruling, "the Pash/Wells Report," but also to some basic documents related to what the judge also referred to as an investigation that was "independent" in quotation marks.

 

The real irony in all of this, as was pointed out by a mediot on ESPN, is that, while the NFL made a big deal about Brady's destruction of his Cell Phone (and he should not have done that, even though Wells had told him that he would not be penalized for not turning it over), in the end a Federal Judge found that it was the NFL that had tried to conceal information from Brady.

 

But enough of that.  Let's talk some football.  Do you think Chip Kelly is nuts for keeping Tebow on my Eagles roster?  I think that two years from now people will be calling Kelly either a genius or an *.  i haven't decided which yet, but I do think that Kelly acts like he's still coaching in College sometimes...and Tebow was great in College...

Thank you NYCfan for your balanced approach in discussing your views on DeFlate Gate. Yes, that 1st press conference was clearly not Brady's finest hour & I'm being kind when I say that. Maybe it was bad advice from Mr. Yee. I don't know. I wouldn't say that Brady was "railroaded" perse just that Goodell placed too much legal significance on the phrase "more probably than not" which the Commissioner believed didn't require an air tight case with empirical evidence that demonstrated that Brady ordered his game balls deflated on game day. I feel into this trap too thinking that "more probably than not" was a difference in legal thresh hold like the difference between a criminal case & a civil case. 

 

Maybe in hindsight this deflate gate verdict will be a good thing because it will force Roger to retract his disciplinary hammer on players somewhat & be more measured & lenient when it comes to handing down suspensions from now on. 

 

Yeah, Chip Kelly is quite a character. Although, somebody started a thread today saying Tebow was cut from the Eagles roster. I agree 100% though. Kelly is a strange cat. Is he a mad genius or just mad? If I could answer that question. I'd be a billionaire. LOL! Nice chatting with you NYCfan. 

[southwest1]

I'm gonna say 1 last thing about Deflate Gate that bothers me & then I'll shut up. I've heard people like Skip Bayless say that Goodell tried to "frame" Brady or WR Julian Edelman claims that Brady will play lights out or possessed football demon like it's a honorable vengeance, badge of honor thing. Grow up Skip & Julian & stop acting like spoiled children okay. 

 

Yes, Jeffery Kessler & Tom Brady defeated Roger Goodell soundly. You have every right to run a victory lap, but what you don't have the right to do is act like you just were found innocent of heinous crime you didn't commit & gloat almost like saying "you stole my lunch money on the playground Mr. bully & my big bad brother is gonna kick your caboose. "

 

Oh was that supposed to scare me & 31 other teams because it didn't work. It reminds me of a guy who claims he's a stud in the bedroom when in reality he's more of a minute man than an all night lover. I'm not slamming Edelman, who I like BTW, I'm just reminding him that the rest of the league is coming to steamroll the reigning SB Champion & knock your club out of the playoffs.  

[CoachLite]

Apparently its not specifically against the rules to rub salt onto your gloves, then into the quarterback's eyes. Even if you get caught, the courts will rule - no harm, no foul - and overturn any punishment. Same for stomping on ankles, or having Jeff Triplette officiate a game where he makes up his own rules. Football's gonna look a lot like WWE or Mad Max from now on - anything goes - unless it involves performance enhancing chemistry, of course.

[ViriLudant]

I once again thank God that none of you are involved in the legal process, because Berman and Pash himself said that there was no evidence that Brady was involved with anything .

[DougDew]

I once again thank God that none of you are involved in the legal process, because Berman and Pash himself said that there was no evidence that Brady was involved with anything .

No, you should thank God that the case took place in the venue it did. 

 

The point of the thread is that here in Indiana, we know the difference between innocence and lack of evidence, as they do in golf, horse racing, and NASCAR.  

 

We wouldn't pretend to need legal proof that our team thrives on fraud, in order to know that it does.  We would stop buying tickets and merchandise anyway

 

Go away, you'll never understand.   You are who you are.

[NYCfan]

That's an important statement because every business owner and NFL team owner needs to understand their fan base.  

 

A lot of fans probably believe there is an inherent, ingrained, unfair treatment on the part of people who run things.  That in the absence of documentation of fair treatment, when there is no documentation or insufficient documentation to show fair treatment, they default to assume treatment was unfair.   Management has to prove they were fair.  That's fine if they believe that, and its probably true in many cases.

 

The judge didn't bother to weed that out of his decision.  He used common labor law, which is founded on the BASIC PRINCIPAL that employees can't negotiate deals on their own merits, but need strength in numbers.  Union members organize because they are powerless individually.  Tom Brady isn't.  He is powerful enough to negotiate his own deals, including disciplinary actions, outside of a union contract.  He also wields certain power on the team and with subordinates that the average union member doesn't.  The judge ignored that reality and defaulted to the protection of the common worker  "management needs to show proof of fairness" interpretation.

 

Brady's position in his organization isn't remotely similar to the positions held by most normal union members, so the judge should have used less normal precedents. 

 

I'm sure pags, grigs, and Irsay gauge the leanings of their fan base and would understand the lack of tolerance many of us would have for the arguments that Brady and his fans have made ...even if it was by Andrew Luck...on the way to something marginally consequential like a cloth banner and a shiny trophy.

I think that, in the end, we fundamentally agree but see this situation differently.

 

I am old enough to have been taught and still believe that there is "right" and "wrong."  I think that's where you're coming from as well.  We want the teams and public figures we support to act like that.  I wholly endorse your final statement, though banners and trophies are nice too...wish my Eagles had a few.  

 

In this case, though, I think that "the arguments that Brady and his fans have made" are, ironically, about "right" and "wrong."  

 

Even Peter King, who, along with Mort, was one of those whose columns fueled the flames of Deflategate from the beginning, wrote in this week's MMQB:

"The league got what it deserved, and I sense even some hard-liners in the league now are not convinced Tom Brady cheated. I’ve had a couple of club people who for months believed Brady must be guilty of something significant and now are questioning whether he directed any Patriots employees to do anything illegal. Clearly, some around the league don’t think Ted Wells, Jeff Pash and Goodell have the goods on Brady. They are right: The league doesn’t have the goods. There’s no proof that Brady told anyone to take air out of the footballs." 

 

When someone who made part of his living beating the anti-Brady drum does an about face like that, I think it starts to become clear that this is a matter of "right" and "wrong."  In this case, Brady was badly wronged.

 

I've said all along that I'm no big fan of Brady, but was raised in a blue-collar household where the "rights" of workers who are dependent on powerful people for their living (and, even Tom Brady depends on 32 billionaire owners to make his living) were always defended by my Union-member father in my home.  

 

There was a right and a wrong here.  I think we'll probably disagree where they resided, but I respect your perspective.

 

However, I just ask you to read Judge Berman's ruling.  It's only 40 double-spaced pages so even I had the attention span to get through it   .  Here's a link:

http://www.nysd.uscourts.gov/cases/show.php?db=special&id=484

 

Nice chatting with you! 

[NYCfan]

Thank you NYCfan for your balanced approach in discussing your views on DeFlate Gate. Yes, that 1st press conference was clearly not Brady's finest hour & I'm being kind when I say that. Maybe it was bad advice from Mr. Yee. I don't know. I wouldn't say that Brady was "railroaded" perse just that Goodell placed too much legal significance on the phrase "more probably than not" which the Commissioner believed didn't require an air tight case with empirical evidence that demonstrated that Brady ordered his game balls deflated on game day. I feel into this trap too thinking that "more probably than not" was a difference in legal thresh hold like the difference between a criminal case & a civil case. 

 

Maybe in hindsight this deflate gate verdict will be a good thing because it will force Roger to retract his disciplinary hammer on players somewhat & be more measured & lenient when it comes to handing down suspensions from now on. 

 

Yeah, Chip Kelly is quite a character. Although, somebody started a thread today saying Tebow was cut from the Eagles roster. I agree 100% though. Kelly is a strange cat. Is he a mad genius or just mad? If I could answer that question. I'd be a billionaire. LOL! Nice chatting with you NYCfan. 

 Nice chatting with you too.  

 

Yeah, I saw that Tebow was cut.  When four teams with very different coaches and styles (ranging from Belichick to Kelly) don't think you've got it for the NFL at QB and when you're not willing to consider playing another position, it's time to hang 'em up and find another line of work.  There are literally hundreds of guys who have been cut from NFL Rosters since Tebow entered the League who would kill for the chances he had!

 

May our teams have successful seasons.