Kravitz: "growing Disconnect Between Ryan Grigson And Chuck Pagano"

[Superman]

Kind of warranted when it's the only team we need to get past to reach our goal and we can't lose by less than three TDs but the lowly Jets could lose to them twice by a combined FG last year and can't score against anyone else...

 

It's not warranted. We could go 15-1 next year and lose 50-0 to the Patriots, and all anyone would care about is that one game.

[ThaCaliColt]

Disheartening to say the least. However, winning solves everthing. The fact that this is even brought up is perhaps a result of the Colts still in the hunt for a title and there's tremendous pressure on these guys.

[weslo1812]

Can't get to the super bowl until we beat New England & Pittsburgh at the end of the day

Pitt will be Lucky to make the Playoffs. They should have a good offense... but their defense is very suspect!!!

[Grigs build the lines plz.]

It's not warranted. We could go 15-1 next year and lose 50-0 to the Patriots, and all anyone would care about is that one game.

Pretty much, losing to the same *  team in the playoffs kinda gets old.

[Superman]

Pretty much, losing to the same *  team in the playoffs kinda gets old.

 

I'm not talking about the playoffs. I'm talking about the regular season game. I don't think the Patriots are good enough to meet us in the playoffs.

[Grigs build the lines plz.]

I'm not talking about the playoffs. I'm talking about the regular season game. I don't think the Patriots are good enough to meet us in the playoffs.

Hope you are right. I believe we cake walk to the Superbowl as long as we don't meet up

against Pitt or the Pats along the way. All bets are off at that point.

[LockeDown]

I don't think the Patriots are good 

 

I'm not a Pats fan, but I have to disagree.  

 

Gotcha back

[LockeDown]

what if rob chud takes over lol i wouldnt mind actually. i feel likes hes definitely here to take pep or paganos spot after this season

 

The irony of that would be the fact that Chud is Pagano's buddy.  Pagano stands up for Gilbert, loses his job and then Chud takes his job.  

[DougDew]

So, if I understand correctly,  the new argument is now this.........

 

Yes,  we're beating very good teams,  but we're not beating them by enough!

 

Is that about it?

 

Dear God,  help me!     What are the magic words to make this nonsense STOP!?!       

 

 

#SpoiledRottenFans

 

I don't know about the nonsense Kravitz may be spewing. 

 

I share the idea that many games the Colts just don't look prepared.  There are also games in which the Colts won but got off to a very bad start.  Perhaps Pagano is a great mid game coach...or perhaps Luck just starts playing better.

 

As far as a disconnect between Grigs and Pagano and how to build a team: Pagano is a defensive minded coach, yet the defense has been the lagging unit. I don't see a lot of innovation or anything unique on the defensive side of the ball.  And for someone who believes that "iron sharpens iron" , the OL and the DL are the weaker corps, and the power running game thingy hasn't really worked. 

 

Just some observations. 

[Jdubu]

chiefs lost to the titans last year. were they a bad team?

Well I don't follow the chefs so I don't know the circumstances.

[bababooey]

It's not warranted. We could go 15-1 next year and lose 50-0 to the Patriots, and all anyone would care about is that one game.

Yes because we need to get past them to win the SB

[zibby43]

He didn't say that. He said they have been trounced in several games by good teams, which is entire true.  They were crushed against the Cowboys/Patsx2/ and Steelers just last year.  The issue is not losing the game, but rather getting absolutely destroyed in those games and looking completely lost in all phases of the game. 

 

Kind of like what happened to the Patriots last year, when they were trounced on national TV by the Chiefs.

 

Or the Broncos losing to the Rams, I repeat, the Rams, 22-7.

 

It's the NFL.  Sometimes you're going to get beat, and handily, despite the game plan/roster quality.

 

Also, the Cowboys game last year was meaningless.  Luck and the rest of the starters got pulled fairly early.

[ColtStrong]

playing like the jets or bills? what are you implying?

Confused here too. Wow. You win 11 games 3 years in a row, and advance 1 step further every year. And get compared to the Jets and Bills? 

[indy1888]

Kind of like what happened to the Patriots last year, when they were trounced on national TV by the Chiefs.

 

Or the Broncos losing to the Rams, I repeat, the Rams, 22-7.

 

It's the NFL.  Sometimes you're going to get beat, and handily, despite the game plan/roster quality.

 

Also, the Cowboys game last year was meaningless.  Luck and the rest of the starters got pulled fairly early.

 

How often do the Patriots get blown out? The Patriots have also proven they can win multiple championships and have probably the best coach in football.  The Colt's do not.   The Colts lost to the Rams you mention above at home 38 to 8 just 2 years ago.  Makes that Broncos loss on the road to the Rams look good by comparison.  They lost to Arizona 40-11 in the same season.  

 

Luck and the starters got pulled in the Dallas game because they were getting there backside handed to them.  If it was meaningless, why did Luck throw 22 passes?  Seems like quite a risk to me.

 

Sure, in the NFL teams will have bad weeks. But i think it's alarming at how badly this team gets beat against top level QB's in this game.  And evidently so does Irsay and Grigson.

[bababooey]

How often do the Patriots get blown out? The Patriots have also proven they can win multiple championships and have probably the best coach in football. The Colt's do not. The Colts lost to the Rams you mention above at home 38 to 8 just 2 years ago. Makes that Broncos loss on the road to the Rams look good by comparison. They lost to Arizona 40-11 in the same season.

Luck and the starters got pulled in the Dallas game because they were getting there backside handed to them. If it was meaningless, why did Luck throw 22 passes? Seems like quite a risk to me.

Sure, in the NFL teams will have bad weeks. But i think it's alarming at how badly this team gets beat against top level QB's in this game. And evidently so does Irsay and Grigson.

We were badly injured vs Arizona STL and cincy two years ago. Whalen was our 2nd WR, Richardson our only healthy starter and no Allen.

The cowboy game we did a fake punt on our own 20 in the first quarter, would have converted if McDonald had good hands. Pretty much gave up after that knowing we clinched a playoff spot

[GoColts8818]

How often do the Patriots get blown out? The Patriots have also proven they can win multiple championships and have probably the best coach in football.  The Colt's do not.   The Colts lost to the Rams you mention above at home 38 to 8 just 2 years ago.  Makes that Broncos loss on the road to the Rams look good by comparison.  They lost to Arizona 40-11 in the same season.  

 

Luck and the starters got pulled in the Dallas game because they were getting there backside handed to them.  If it was meaningless, why did Luck throw 22 passes?  Seems like quite a risk to me.

 

Sure, in the NFL teams will have bad weeks. But i think it's alarming at how badly this team gets beat against top level QB's in this game.  And evidently so does Irsay and Grigson.

these Pats have not. The last time they won a Super Bowl before last year Andrew Luck was 14. The only Pats players left from that team were Brady and Wilfork. Wilfork is of course now gone. This is a whole new team from those 3 in 4 years teams.

[Pancake Block]

This kind of friction happens in most situations.     Friction between the HC and the GM happens all the time.    This is NOT something new or should it be shocking to anyone.

 

Pagano's job is on the line.    Grigson has made a number of serious missteps that have prevented this team from being better.  That's on Grigson.

 

As for the getting out butt kicked by better teams -- that was last year.

 

And as far back as the year before last we beat Seattle (SB winner) Denver (SB runner-up) SF (in the '12 SB)  and playoff team Kansas City -- twice.

 

So, I think the losing to better teams issue is way overblown and very misleading.

 

Things will all play out this year.    It worked in Dallas last year.    Jones didn't extend Garrett, and Garrett led Dallas to a 12-4 season.     If we have a very good year this year,  then Pagano will be back.    If not, he'll be coaching elsewhere next year.

Weren't most of those wins in the year when Ariens was at the helm subbing for Pagano?  Despite the expenditure of draft picks and free agents, I don't think our offense has been as explosive since Ariens left.  I'm a Purdue man and have been rooting for Grigson to succeed, but he has really made some poor draft decisions.  It's too early to critcize him for Dorsett, but Richardson, Werner, Donald Thomas, Hetward-Bey, etc. were some really bad moves.  He's had some good ones too, but it's a mixed bag and a couple of his misses really hurt this team.  We have been losing to those good teams because we are getting whipped up front.

[ColtStrong]

Disheartening to say the least. However, winning solves everthing. The fact that this is even brought up is perhaps a result of the Colts still in the hunt for a title and there's tremendous pressure on these guys.

Well said. I'm not worried. I root for the Colts when they play, and if they lose I suck it up and move on. Perhaps I'm old school and not as spoiled as some on here who grew up with Peyton and now have Luck. After the Bert Jones era, the Colts were pathetic until Harbaugh was reborn. I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the 80's and early 90's. 

 

What I'm going through now is awesome as a fan. No complaints here.

[GoColts8818]

Well said. I'm not worried. I root for the Colts when they play, and if they lose I suck it up and move on. Perhaps I'm old school and not as spoiled as some on here who grew up with Peyton and now have Luck. After the Bert Jones era, the Colts were pathetic until Harbaugh was reborn. I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the 80's and early 90's. 

 

What I'm going through now is awesome as a fan. No complaints here.

yep 16 years in the playoffs in 20 is pretty good. Over that time there have been 10 division titles, five AFCCG appearances, two Super Bowl trips, and of course a Super Bowl Title. Not bad and there should be 10 more years at least to add to it.

[indy1888]

these Pats have not. The last time they won a Super Bowl before last year Andrew Luck was 14. The only Pats players left from that team were Brady and Wilfork. Wilfork is of course now gone. This is a whole new team from those 3 in 4 years teams.

 

 I was speaking of the organization in general. If they have a bad game or 2, big deal.  They have proven they know how to win championships.  Just like this year, if Brady is suspended 4 games, they will be just fine.  They have had the same coach for all those SB wins, which is really all that matters. Thats what this thread is really about, coaching. I just don't think Irsay is convinced Pagano is the answer, if he was,  this wouldn't be a story.

[wig]

...I never suspected or sensed any of this..but you do have an old NFL lifer...with a new GM.

Wins sooth things over

 

Grigson has worked in the NFL longer than Pagano.

[GoColts8818]

Weren't most of those wins in the year when Ariens was at the helm subbing for Pagano? Despite the expenditure of draft picks and free agents, I don't think our offense has been as explosive since Ariens left. I'm a Purdue man and have been rooting for Grigson to succeed, but he has really made some poor draft decisions. It's too early to critcize him for Dorsett, but Richardson, Werner, Donald Thomas, Hetward-Bey, etc. were some really bad moves. He's had some good ones too, but it's a mixed bag and a couple of his misses really hurt this team. We have been losing to those good teams because we are getting whipped up front.

to your first question no. They beat the Vikings and Texas. With Pagano that year and the Packers with Arians other than that they didn't beat a playoff team that season. Most of their "big" wins have come with Pagano coaching the team including the Seahawks.49ees, Chiefs (twice), and Broncos (twice).

I'll give you T-Rich was a bad trade and to this point Werner has not lived up to the billing of a first round pick. He couldn't predict injury with Donald Thomas so let's not put that in the same boat as T-Rich. RJF and Landry were bigger mistakes than Thomas. DHB was here on a cheap one year deal so I don't really see how that was a really bad move. They took a flyer on a guy and it didn't workout. It happens. DHB's deal hardly crippled this team in anyway when they wanted to move forward without him. Grigson has made mistakes but I feel his hits have out weighed his mistakes as a whole. Run d has to get better, hopefully Langford, Anderson, and Parry will help that. Early signs from them have been positive. As for oline it was a trainwreck when Grigson took over with one NFL level starter in Castonzo. He's found Mewhort who had a really good rookie year and held up very well against the Rams front seven. Holmes looks like he's coming around at center. Grigson now has three good young olinemen in place. He needs help at the guard spot. Still in three years it's getting better. No they aren't the Cowboys front but they aren't the hot mess they were when he took over either.

This team was an aging 2-14 team in real trouble with the cap when Grigson and Pagano got here. Since then they have gone 11-5 three straight years, been to the playoffs every year, won two division titles, won three playoff games, been to an AFCCG, and gone a round further every year, you don't do that having both a bad coach and a bad GM. Someone is doing their job right.

[NewColtsFan]

Weren't most of those wins in the year when Ariens was at the helm subbing for Pagano?  Despite the expenditure of draft picks and free agents, I don't think our offense has been as explosive since Ariens left.  I'm a Purdue man and have been rooting for Grigson to succeed, but he has really made some poor draft decisions.  It's too early to critcize him for Dorsett, but Richardson, Werner, Donald Thomas, Hetward-Bey, etc. were some really bad moves.  He's had some good ones too, but it's a mixed bag and a couple of his misses really hurt this team.  We have been losing to those good teams because we are getting whipped up front.

 

Actually, no.    The wins I listed happened in 2013, not 2012.    Wins over Seattle, Denver, SF and KC (twice) all happened in 2013.   Pagano was back healthy and Arians was in Arizona.

[#12.]

"We''re not playing anything like the Jets".

The point I was trying to make is this: Grigson has used our draft picks and cap space to build this offense in one way while it's in Chuck's nature to play in a completely different way. Through three seasons, Chuck had to be dragged kicking and screaming to utilize this QB and receiving options properly, and I fear with the addition of Gore, we may go through another mini period of that to start this season, with Chuck reverting back to his nature, attempting to grind out games. So, if there is a disconnect between the two, and one eventually has to go, I'm guessing it will be Chuck because this offense is already built. With everything you have invested in weaponry and will invest in Luck, you might as well bring in someone who will maximize it.

[amfootball]

Belicheck & Belicheck agree 100%

Kraft is just there as the visual. Beli runs that team

Easily the biggest reason why the Pats have enjoyed the success they have and yet the most overlooked is the relationship Bill has with Kraft. Pete Carroll did not have the GM title when he was with the Pats and Kraft has said in the past that he felt he limited Pete during his time in NE. He learned from that and gave Bill the GM title but Kraft is still heavily involved with every decision but I think at this point the trust is so solid that Bill can choose to let his superstar secondary walk away after a championship run and Kraft does not blink an eye. It takes time though to build that and a lot of trust.

 

I wonder who Grigson has his eye to replace Pagano as HC if he does let him go after this season. Who would Colts fans like to see as the new HC? There could be some interesting candidates after this season depending on who gets let go and who maybe decides to come out of retirement. Have to got to think there would be a lot coaches out there that would love to work with Luck.

[amfootball]

these Pats have not. The last time they won a Super Bowl before last year Andrew Luck was 14. The only Pats players left from that team were Brady and Wilfork. Wilfork is of course now gone. This is a whole new team from those 3 in 4 years teams.

Sure not SB wins but this team has been in the AFCCG the last 4 years straight and two SBs, winning one so this team has the winning ways/attitude just as much as the teams from the early '00s.

[Modern]

It all comes down to who Irsay sides with. Did we not make it to the Superbowl because we were out coached each season or did we not make it to the Superbowl because no amount of coaching can overcome bad drafting and signings ?

I'm sure the Coach blames the GM and vice versa.

I don't think either one are really the best at what they do

[SteelCityColt]

It's not warranted. We could go 15-1 next year and lose 50-0 to the Patriots, and all anyone would care about is that one game.

 

We could be #1 seed in the AFC, win the Superbowl by a record margin but dear lord if we lose to the Pats a certain section on here will still be calling for heads to roll..... 

 

It's like this, every group of friends who are fans of a team has that guy. The constant debbie downer, the guy who for no apparent reasons will single out a player/coach and lam bast them incessantly regardless, for whom the glass is not even half empty, it's been smashed on the floor and now he can't get served at the bar. On a forum however, it's not just one guy, it's a whole pack of them and like a pack they hunt together. 

[Nadine]

I have no clue as to who Kravitz could possibly have talked to who was willing to put this out there.  It's toxic talk.  I don't care who said what, or what might be true.  This sort of thing is not good for the team.

 

my hope is that both Grigson and Pagana are working together like professionals and whoever said this........Idk......maybe they are the one with the ax to grind.

[theanarchist]

My initial reaction to this report was that it isnt good for the team. However, sometimes a team who feels their leader is unjustifiably being pressured will rally around the coach and play with a purpose. Thats usually a good thing.

 

My other thought on this is that Grigson needs to take a close look at what he's done. I wouldn't say he's failed to bring in talent but he hasn't built the "monster" that was talked about when he and Pags first were hired either. Lets face it without Andrew Luck this team is probably .500 at best.

[ColtRider]

So, if I understand correctly,  the new argument is now this.........

 

Yes,  we're beating very good teams,  but we're not beating them by enough!

 

Is that about it?

 

Dear God,  help me!     What are the magic words to make this nonsense STOP!?!       

 

 

#SpoiledRottenFans

So, if I understand correctly,  the new argument is now this.........

 

Yes,  we're beating very good teams,  but we're not beating them by enough!

 

Is that about it?

 

Dear God,  help me!     What are the magic words to make this nonsense STOP!?!       

 

 

#SpoiledRottenFans

"#SpoiledRottenFans"

That's definitely part of it. Complacency in all of its forms, can make one fail to realize if the dog is barking or biting them on the ***.

[Restored]

I'm usually quite skeptical of Bob Kravitz but if we really think about it, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Grigson has used majority of the back-end draft picks on defensive players when Pagano is a defensive-minded coach. And while you can get solid players sometimes in rounds 3-7, you are mostly getting what you pay for in drafting in those rounds. I could see how this would make Pagano feel a disconnect. He's mentioned before the past couple of drafts how they've needed to get better defensively then the Colts end up taking offensive players earlier on. Even worse, the time the Colts went defense early in the draft, it hasn't turned out well (Werner). You can't get too upset with Pagano when the defense he is fielding is lacking talent.

[Pacergeek]

I'm not the biggest Pagano fan. We start out slowly in way too many games. Like we weren't prepared. Not sure why we can never jump out to early 17-0 leads early on. We have also gotten blown out too frequently in several games besides NE. Anybody remember the Rams game a few seasons ago? How the hell does that happen at home

[BrentMc11]

Easily the biggest reason why the Pats have enjoyed the success they have and yet the most overlooked is the relationship Bill has with Kraft. Pete Carroll did not have the GM title when he was with the Pats and Kraft has said in the past that he felt he limited Pete during his time in NE. He learned from that and gave Bill the GM title but Kraft is still heavily involved with every decision but I think at this point the trust is so solid that Bill can choose to let his superstar secondary walk away after a championship run and Kraft does not blink an eye. It takes time though to build that and a lot of trust.

 

I wonder who Grigson has his eye to replace Pagano as HC if he does let him go after this season. Who would Colts fans like to see as the new HC? There could be some interesting candidates after this season depending on who gets let go and who maybe decides to come out of retirement. Have to got to think there would be a lot coaches out there that would love to work with Luck.

It would probably be Chud unless we go for a big time name.

[TheRealKYColtsFan]

we've beaten the  seahawks

 

that game was particularly fun for me, living where i do these days.

we won the NFC West that year, when it was the best division in football. and every Seattle fan i know heard about it.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Nadine

[Defjamz26]

Makes a lot of sense. There's been fault on both sides.

Grigson has made some questionable draft and FA choices that have set the team back, and we are still feeling the effects from.

Pagano has made some very questionable coaching decisions regarding both players and in game decisions. There are also questions about his other coaches abilities to perform.

I can see both sides.

[bababooey]

We could be #1 seed in the AFC, win the Superbowl by a record margin but dear lord if we lose to the Pats a certain section on here will still be calling for heads to roll..... 

 

It's like this, every group of friends who are fans of a team has that guy. The constant debbie downer, the guy who for no apparent reasons will single out a player/coach and lam bast them incessantly regardless, for whom the glass is not even half empty, it's been smashed on the floor and now he can't get served at the bar. On a forum however, it's not just one guy, it's a whole pack of them and like a pack they hunt together. 

 

If we win the superbowl I'll be the first to forget about getting smacked by the Pats during the last couple years. The fact of the matter is if you lose to the Pats in the regular season, guess where you are going to be playing in January. 

 

Hint: Not in Indianapolis.

[JPFolks]

Trent Richardson and Jon Harrison say hello

Unless GRIGSON and IRSAY ordered those guys to play, especially Richardson.  I can't imagine Pagano was the one trying to cover his butt by playing Richardson right?  I blame ALL personnel problem on Grigson/Irsay and if you don't give Chuck decent Defensive players or an O-Line how the hell is he supposed to coach inferior garbage to stop the run or protect Luck? 

 

I am not really a fan of either guy, but in this case I think there's much blame to go around.  Luck is a singular talent who has drug this team to 11-5 each year.  Without him, we'd be lucky to have won 4 games a season, mostly in our miserable division. Luck deserves better than Pagano AND Grigson.  

[throwing BBZ]

Actually, no.    The wins I listed happened in 2013, not 2012.    Wins over Seattle, Denver, SF and KC (twice) all happened in 2013.   Pagano was back healthy and Arians was in Arizona.

 

 A Home game, Seattle pounded us that day, a miracle TY got behind them twice for TD`s.

 A Home game,  Mathis beat their BACKUP LT for a strip sack, Manning was Emotional and started slow, then he kicked our butt. Lawrence Guy blocked a kick for a returned TD as i recall. Then we released him.  A Lucky win.

 SF, on the road, didn`t show up, they suffered 3 major injuries the week before we played them. No receiving core and no NT. LINK even looked good as a run blocker. !

 KC was ahead about 30 and then had major injuries on D. A Goofy Lucky win.

 

 2014

Lost to Denver 31-24

Lost to Eagles at home 30-27

Lost to Pittsburg 51-34

Lost to NE at home 42-24

Lost to Dallas 42-7

 

 2 wins at HOME against decent teams Ravens, Bengals and the rest of the wins against bla!

 Both these guys are surely on the bubble.

 Lots of young guys they are grooming must show improvement, they Require experience, so where we are come Playoff time is how they all should be evaluated.

 Go Colts!

 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

I wonder who Grigson has his eye to replace Pagano as HC if he does let him go after this season. Who would Colts fans like to see as the new HC? There could be some interesting candidates after this season depending on who gets let go and who maybe decides to come out of retirement. Have to got to think there would be a lot coaches out there that would love to work with Luck.

 

Well, according to this article, Nick Saban. Yeah, no thanks, I'll stick with Pagano.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/02/could-saban-return-to-the-nfl/