Kravitz: "growing Disconnect Between Ryan Grigson And Chuck Pagano"

[Dustin]

http://www.wthr.com/story/29933953/kravitz-is-paganos-job-on-the-line-theres-a-very-good-chance-it-is

 

Relevant text:

 

"But there are problems, internal problems, a growing disconnect between Grigson, who has a five-year deal, and Pagano, who is in the final year of his four-year deal.

After poking around the last few weeks and talking to people who understand the dynamics of the situation, here’s my read on things: As is so often the case in professional football, the head coach wants more say in personnel decisions. As Bill Parcells used to say, if he’s going to cook the meal, he wants to pick out the groceries. I cannot list with any certainty specific examples where Grigson and Pagano have butted heads in personnel, but I can say they haven’t always seen eye-to-eye."

 

Also this: 

 

"From my conversations with people who know what’s going on, Irsay and Grigson have questions as to whether Pagano, a players’ coach, has the ability or the inclination to put a boot up somebody’s backside. Even at this level, fear is still a healthy motivator. They also look at his record outside of the abysmal AFC South and the fact the Colts have gotten trounced in several games against elite opponents. Fair or not, and I think both men deserve the opportunity to remain and work toward a title, those are the facts. Again, there’s a reason Pagano wasn’t extended several years and offered a healthy raise. The decision-makers, Irsay and Grigson, have questions."

 

 

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

I don't think anything would surprise us fans at this point.

[IndyD4U]

Kravitz is a pot stirrer. I don't know how much faith I put in what he says anymore.

[backshoulderfade]

This story wont go away. I wonder if it has something to do with the Dorsett pick.

[CR91]

the whole we cant beat elite teams is a joke. besides the cowboys(who we wont play again for another 4 years) and the patriots, who has beaten us? the steelers? we were one thornton stepping on luck's foot drive away from tying the game. we've beaten the ravens, bengals, chiefs, broncos twice and almost came back to beat them a third time, seahawks, packers, lions, and 49ers.

[Smonroe]

"Fear is still a healthy motivator"  Not sure what he's implying here.  Fear of losing your job is the motivator, not of a coach yelling at you.

 

Saying that Pagano would play a guy who's not performing is ridiculous.  He's been a coach forever, the guys playing for him are professionals, not college or high school players.

 

Maybe if Grigson gave him some better ingredients, he'd cook a better meal?

 

Anyway, this is all a bunch of hooey if the Colts win.

[21isSuperman]

Saying that Pagano would play a guy who's not performing is ridiculous.

Trent Richardson and Jon Harrison say hello

[#12.]

If one eventually has to go, I choose Chuck. In this division, with this QB and receiving options, practically any top flight coach could step in and win 12 games. Yet every year, it seems to take Chuck and Pep a few losses to be forced into using them properly. You've spent all of this money on TY and Johnson, all of these high draft picks on WRs and TEs, yet I fear Chuck will once again head to Buffalo and try to grind out the game, playing right into Rex's hands.

When you win the lottery and land a QB like Luck or Rodgers, you don't play like the Jets or Bills.

[CR91]

Trent Richardson and Jon Harrison say hello

 

we dont know whos decisions those were 

[CR91]

If one eventually has to go, I choose Chuck. In this division, with this QB and receiving options, practically any top flight coach could step in and win 12 games. Yet every year, it seems to take Chuck and Pep a few losses to be forced into using them properly. You've spent all of this money on TY and Johnson, all of these high draft picks on WRs and TEs, yet I fear Chuck will once again head to Buffalo and try to grind out the game, playing right into Rex's hands.

When you win the lottery and land a QB like Luck or Rodgers, you don't play like the Jets or Bills.

 

playing like the jets or bills? what are you implying?

[COLTS449]

Probably because Pagano has enough sense to know we should have fixed the offensive line by now. And a host of other things that Grigs has done wrong. Certain signings, bad draft decisions, etc.

[Clem-Dog]

Don't know the exact accuracy of my assertion but I think some of the ongoing friction is/was caused by Pagano's loyalty to Joe Gilbert.

Pagano essentially wants his staff to be guaranteed before he commits to a new contract and that didn't happen because Grigson doesn't want to retain Joe. At this point Grigson goes around Pagano and attempts to re-sign the majority of his staff to gain leverage against him, only they are loyal to Pagano.

If true, Pagano is loyal to a fault, meaning Joe Gilbert is as pathetic a coach as TRich was a rolling ball of butcher knives.

I side with Grigson all day on this one. Fire Gilbert already.

[Jim H.]

If Pagano is unhappy with the team he has been provided or with hiring/firing decision within the purview of the Gm - he should move on.  An offensive line coach is the cause for all this alleged "friction?"  Really?  Nothing like First World problems, eh.

[csmopar]

great.....drama...front office drama.  

[Bravo]

The Colts are going to have a fallout much like the Indiana Pacers.

The Colts have always been better as the underdog.

[Smonroe]

Trent Richardson and Jon Harrison say hello

 

Okay, the question is - did Pagano want to play Trent or was he told to play him?  Did Pags finally get his way when he benched him?  If you know the inside scoop, please fill us in.

 

As far as Harrison, let's face it, the difference between him, Holmes, and whatever other body they put at C, wasn't exactly staggering.  I'm not defending Pags, but none of us know who looks better in practice.

 

No sane head coach is going to play a guy who gives him a lesser chance of being successful.  Why would they sabotage their own jobs?

[TKnight24]

the whole we cant beat elite teams is a joke. besides the cowboys(who we wont play again for another 4 years) and the patriots, who has beaten us? the steelers? we were one thornton stepping on luck's foot drive away from tying the game. we've beaten the ravens, bengals, chiefs, broncos twice and almost came back to beat them a third time, seahawks, packers, lions, and 49ers.

From tying the game? Steelers beat the brakes off us. Big Ben has his best game ever. It's not about the scoreboard it's about the performance we show when we play top teams. We look unprepared everytime

It matters cause those are the teams you have to beat to win the super bowl, not the Jags or Titans. They don't matter in January

[chad72]

The O-line coach Joe has to go, IMO, if there is not much improvement in OL performance this year.

 

Much like Dungy was too attached to Ron Meeks, coaches are always going to have their men in any coaching staff.

[Smonroe]

great.....drama...front office drama.  

 

Or is it Kravitz drama?  Quote: "here’s my read on things..." 

 

Sounds like an interpretation to me.

[Gavin]

I don't think this is Kravitz stirring a pot actually, I think this is legit....Pagano does strike me as a guy who is loyal to a fault and someone that while not incapable of putting a boot up someones butt he might be reluctant to do it, With that said if he wants to be the one making decisions on personnel I cant say I blame him IF that's the case...Its his job that's on the line

[indy1888]

the whole we cant beat elite teams is a joke. besides the cowboys(who we wont play again for another 4 years) and the patriots, who has beaten us? the steelers? we were one thornton stepping on luck's foot drive away from tying the game. we've beaten the ravens, bengals, chiefs, broncos twice and almost came back to beat them a third time, seahawks, packers, lions, and 49ers.

 

I don't think it's the fact that we cant beat good teams as much as it is that we simply can't even come close to beating the Patriots, who we have to beat if we ever hope to get to a superbowl and that our losses to some of these teams are horribly bad.  The games simply aren't even close.  This team has a history under Pagano of just not showing up to certain games and getting the doors blown off them.  And that's not always been to great teams either, the Rams did it to us at home 2 years ago.  Why does this happen?  

[Gavin]

Or is it Kravitz drama?  Quote: "here’s my read on things..." 

 

Sounds like an interpretation to me.

Everybody has there own read on things...That really goes for any controversial situation.....people speculate based on what they hear...Sometimes its from credible sources....Usually its not, He did state he has had conversations with people that KNOW whats going on....I'd bet someone is leaking info if that's the case about the situation

[csmopar]

I don't think this is Kravitz stirring a pot actually, I think this is legit....Pagano does strike me as a guy who is loyal to a fault and someone that while not incapable of putting a boot up someones butt he might be reluctant to do it, With that said if he wants to be the one making decisions on personnel I cant say I blame him IF that's the case...Its his job that's on the line

I agree.  Plus the fact that he sticks with guys for way longer than he should, Trich, harrison among others and his game planning, is well to be desired. 

[Freenyfan102]

Look at the games we lost in we look not prepared at all. We have a very good receiving core and the coach wants to run the ball when we cant run.

[oldunclemark]

...I never suspected or sensed any of this..but you do have an old NFL lifer...with a new GM.

Wins sooth things over

[JH8788]

Okay, the question is - did Pagano want to play Trent or was he told to play him?  Did Pags finally get his way when he benched him?  If you know the inside scoop, please fill us in.

 

As far as Harrison, let's face it, the difference between him, Holmes, and whatever other body they put at C, wasn't exactly staggering.  I'm not defending Pags, but none of us know who looks better in practice.

 

No sane head coach is going to play a guy who gives him a lesser chance of being successful.  Why would they sabotage their own jobs?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought last season when Harrison got inexplicably put in the lineup over Shipley was a Grigson move???

[Johnhenry]

How often have you seen the coach of a rebuild last to enjoy the fruits of his labor? I would think that if the coach continues to win 11+ games and a few in the playoffs, he is safe. However, if they were to take even a tiny step backward, I think he would be looking for a new job.

[NewColtsFan]

This kind of friction happens in most situations.     Friction between the HC and the GM happens all the time.    This is NOT something new or should it be shocking to anyone.

 

Pagano's job is on the line.    Grigson has made a number of serious missteps that have prevented this team from being better.  That's on Grigson.

 

As for the getting out butt kicked by better teams -- that was last year.

 

And as far back as the year before last we beat Seattle (SB winner) Denver (SB runner-up) SF (in the '12 SB)  and playoff team Kansas City -- twice.

 

So, I think the losing to better teams issue is way overblown and very misleading.

 

Things will all play out this year.    It worked in Dallas last year.    Jones didn't extend Garrett, and Garrett led Dallas to a 12-4 season.     If we have a very good year this year,  then Pagano will be back.    If not, he'll be coaching elsewhere next year.

[ztboiler]

Kravitz is right, technically, even if he's wrong.  Anybody that doesn't believe that there is real friction here and there between alpha males trying to win at the highest level is kidding themselves.

 

Grigson and Irsay probably are taking a wait and see approach - that absolutely makes sense when there have been warning signs about Pagano's staff that you can't ignore - but that doesn't mean that Grigson and Pagano don't have a solid working relationship as Kravitz is implying.

[Cribbsfaircatch]

Who cares why they hate each other. Lets fire both of them.

[Superman]

Disagreements over personnel are normal. Every team has that issue between the coach and the GM, except the Patriots, where one man does both jobs with near total autonomy. In 2011, there were reports that Pete Carroll and John Schneider were at odds with each other. There have been various reports that Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson have issues.

 

If there is any real issue with Pagano and the people he answers to, I don't think it's about personnel or staffing decisions. Those could be auxiliary issues, but not the real problem.

 

To me, it's really simple. Pagano has been the coach for three seasons. In his first year, he wasn't really around for three months, and another coach -- who was all but retired before coming to Indy -- did his job, while the team went 9-3. Since then, the team has shown some bright spots, but hasn't taken that next step to being a truly elite team. Either inconsistency against weaker opponents (2013) or inability to hang with better opponents (2014), plus some bad losses that are partly due to substandard coaching (Patriots, last three matchups)... those are significant issues that Pagano's Colts have had. And they're mostly about coaching.

 

That's not to say that there have been no personnel issues, but if you can beat Seattle, Denver and San Francisco, why are you getting blown out by the Rams, Cardinals and Bengals? 

 

So the question remains: Is Pagano the right coach to lead a championship contending team? I don't think we know the answer to that, yet. We really only have two years plus an incomplete year from him. They offered him a one year extension so he's not a lame duck, and he turned it down. Probably means he wants to be paid like a top tier coach, and he hasn't proven that he is. Yet. So why would they pay him like one?

 

http://coacheshotseat.com/NFLCoachesSalaries.htm

 

He's making $500K less than Jason Garrett, who just got a new deal after a strong season. He's making more than Marvin Lewis, and retreads like Rex Ryan, Lovie Smith, Ken Whisenhunt, John Fox, etc., some of whom have gone to the Super Bowl. He's not being paid like a first time head coach with one year of coordinator experience. So I'm fine with them not jumping at the idea of bumping him up into the Mike McCarthy/Mike Tomlin range, or higher, until he PROVES that he belongs.

 

I think that's the only issue. He wants to be paid like a top ten head coach, and they're not ready to make that commitment. I think all this 'disconnect between Pagano and Grigson' thing is a bunch of stuff, insofar as I don't think they have any issues that don't exist between your typical head coach and GM. 

 

And by the way, I think these same questions exist with Ryan Grigson. Both men need to prove that they are the right leaders for this team to contend every year, and not just that they were in the right place at the right time to help the Colts turn around quickly with a once in a generation QB. Only time will tell.

[BrentMc11]

Don't know the exact accuracy of my assertion but I think some of the ongoing friction is/was caused by Pagano's loyalty to Joe Gilbert.

Pagano essentially wants his staff to be guaranteed before he commits to a new contract and that didn't happen because Grigson doesn't want to retain Joe. At this point Grigson goes around Pagano and attempts to re-sign the majority of his staff to gain leverage against him, only they are loyal to Pagano.

If true, Pagano is loyal to a fault, meaning Joe Gilbert is as pathetic a coach as TRich was a rolling ball of butcher knives.

I side with Grigson all day on this one. Fire Gilbert already.

Grigson is the one that brought these guys in....in addition to Satele and McGlynn...who else am I missing.

 

Unless you are hanging out at 56th street stirring the pt yourself...get over yourself.  Gilbert has not had a healthy line since he took over.  He has coached a lot of NFL offensive linemen.  Have you?

[braveheartcolt]

Look at the games we lost in we look not prepared at all. We have a very good receiving core and the coach wants to run the ball when we cant run.

What about the games we win then? Or do they not count? On the road at SF. Seahawks. Packers. Broncos. Chiefs. Ravens. Bengals.

Just amazing that in sport, you sometimes lose games because the other team plays better, plans better and executes better.

[ColtRider]

This kind of friction happens in most situations.     Friction between the HC and the GM happens all the time.    This is NOT something new or should it be shocking to anyone.

 

Pagano's job is on the line.    Grigson has made a number of serious missteps that have prevented this team from being better.  That's on Grigson.

 

As for the getting out butt kicked by better teams -- that was last year.

 

And as far back as the year before last we beat Seattle (SB winner) Denver (SB runner-up) SF (in the '12 SB)  and playoff team Kansas City -- twice.

 

So, I think the losing to better teams issue is way overblown and very misleading.

 

Things will all play out this year.    It worked in Dallas last year.    Jones didn't extend Garrett, and Garrett led Dallas to a 12-4 season.     If we have a very good year this year,  then Pagano will be back.    If not, he'll be coaching elsewhere next year.

You beat me to it! Nice assessment, NCF. Right on the dime!

[Freenyfan102]

If he beat new England in the playoff he get his contract if he get blown out again in the playoff he is fired

[CR91]

From tying the game? Steelers beat the brakes off us. Big Ben has his best game ever. It's not about the scoreboard it's about the performance we show when we play top teams. We look unprepared everytime

It matters cause those are the teams you have to beat to win the super bowl, not the Jags or Titans. They don't matter in January

 

only media cares how a team wins. ask any team, it doesnt matter if you win by 1 or 100. winning is winning

[TKnight24]

who cares how you beat a team. its that you beat them. the rest doesnt matter expect for the media

Can't get to the super bowl until we beat New England & Pittsburgh at the end of the day

[CR91]

I don't think it's the fact that we cant beat good teams as much as it is that we simply can't even come close to beating the Patriots, who we have to beat if we ever hope to get to a superbowl and that our losses to some of these teams are horribly bad.  The games simply aren't even close.  This team has a history under Pagano of just not showing up to certain games and getting the doors blown off them.  And that's not always been to great teams either, the Rams did it to us at home 2 years ago.  Why does this happen?  

 

ok say we cant beat the patriots. dont say we cant beat elite teams

[Jdubu]

There is no doubt friction there and I'm sure to an extent, on every team between a guy picking your players and telling you to win with them or I'll fire you. That is part of the game. The GM and owners feels your in that job because you make good personnel choices and the coach you've hired to pull the talent out of them. You can argue that Griggs blew it on the T Rich deal big but honestly, outside of disliking the fact we have a first round pick up for a RB, who believed that it would end up so badly. I could never have thought it was that bad. Signing Landry to that big contract was also a poor choice as that guy did nothing and was a highlight reel hitter coming in. I didn't agree with either of those 2 decisions but still didn't think they would sooooo underperform. Griggs has appeared to miss on the Werner pick as well but a few things you could say about things, Griggs appeared to spend a lot of money trying to get pieces for Pags to make the defense better and gave him young talented offensive guys to win with and the team hasn't done enough in those elite team games.

We still have a bad oline play and I'm not sure we have guys in good positions and /or the right guys playing in schemes, meaning are we getting guys mix matched that play better as a zone guy to play in a man scheme along the line? Seems some are suited to zone and some are certain man but we employ both types trying to play in unison as one and it doesn't appear to work.

We still can't cover the TE routes and shirt crossing routes and even the most under performing teams can hit those routes against us with regularity too often.

We know that Pags has made some head scratching sideline calls and the team has went out to pick up another former head coach to help give Pags someone on the offense to help him see things better and throw ideas around. That tells me, the team is not 100% sold on Pags ability to use his personnel to the teams. Satisfaction and may be the reason he didn't get a new contract yet.

Every team has guys that can't agree on everything but if Pags and Griggs don't agree on philosophy mostly then the 2 have to part ways and find a combo that agree on that. It appears Griggs built this team to go vertical with the receivers and TE's placed with Luck and he had tried to get players on the free agent market to stop the run and draft some pass rushing talent (not well enough) so we see that development just hasn't done well enough. Player talent or coaching, we don't know and it will come to fruition following this season. We will all know what Irsay feels is the teams overall vision and who best did the job of making that vision work. Could be both guys or one gets cut and we move on.

[NewColtsFan]

Who cares why they hate each other. Lets fire both of them.

 

The story never said they hate each other.

 

It's simply astounding the number of issues you get completely wrong.     Not even close.