bpa

[Bobbycovert]

You are correct...we didn't have a pick.....because we traded it.....for Richardson.

 

But that is semantics. Just because we didn't use the pick at the draft doesn't mean we didn't use the pick. We used our first round pick to acquire Richardson.

 

Yes...but in that scenario BPA doesn't apply.  Maybe I'm explaining this poorly.  BPA is only possible when judging the relative value of multiple available players.

[NewColtsFan]

The term means nothing..it's a tactic. Need vs BPA are just words, the GM is going to do whatever they want.

 

Well....    thanks for that.

 

I don't know what point you're ultimately trying to make,  but whatever it is,  you're not doing a very good job of making it.

[scooter4910]

The Colts gutted the roster in 2012 after the terrible 2011 season.     The team was old and badly structured, so we had to start again from scratch.

 

In 2012,  we had $40 Million in Dead Cap money,  that meant that on a normal payroll of $120 Million,  we could only pay out about $80 million in new salaries.

 

In 2013,   the team went one round further in the playoffs.

 

In 2014,  the team went one round further still in the playoffs.

 

So,  starting from the ground up,  we've gotten better every year.    Winning the Super Bowl is the hardest thing to do in team sports.    So, from 2-14 in 2011,  we've been in the playoffs all three years and gone further every year.

 

We're only four years into a complete rebuild.    These things take time.

 

Rebuilding...pffttt that will be the excuse from now until we win another Super Bowl.

[NewColtsFan]

Rebuilding...pffttt that will be the excuse from now until we win another Super Bowl.

 

I'm not sure that Grigson or Pagano have used the term once since they were hired.

 

I use it from time to time to try to explain to people who don't seem to understand how the football world works.....

[C0lts088]

Winning record every year since 2002...most of them 12, 13, 14 season wins.

2011 2-14 Painter

2012 11-5 Luck

2013 11-5 Luck

2014 11-5 Luck

We are a winning franchise before but are we improving? We had better records with Dungy, Polian and Manning.

Polian came in and drafted Manning.. With an established roster; marvin Harrison and Tarik Glenn both on the roster; we still didn't go to the playoffs in Mannings first 2 years!

Grigson came in and drafted Luck, gutted the whole entire roster and has managed to get us to the playoffs every year and gone further every year.

[scooter4910]

I'm not sure that Grigson or Pagano have used the term once since they were hired.

 

I use it from time to time to try to explain to people who don't seem to understand how the football world works.....

You're not the only one using the excuse rebuilding.

[NewColtsFan]

You're not the only one using the excuse rebuilding.

 

I know....

 

And you're not the only one here who is unhappy with the teams performance the last three years....

 

You've got plenty of company.

[ColtsBlueFL]

is it wiser for a gm to draft bpa when that position is filled and the pick sits on the bench until a space is available or draft bpa for a position of need who can start and upgrade and play now? did grigs make a good first?

 

Let's look at it this way.  Would you send your scouting staff out for most of the year watching players, taking notes, etc, then send them to bowl games.... then have them watch hours and hours of tape... Afterward go to players schools and interview everybody in town, etc... etc.. Then get together with the GM, Head Coach and essential coaching staff and discus a priority ranking system of every player based upon athletics and the intangibles. Only to not follow that board when your pick is up because the guy on top of the list didn't happen to be a position of need?  Why even go through the work?  Just identify positions of need and only scout those guys, and hope on draft day one of them is still on the board every time your pick comes into play. If not, then what?

 

Most every team will take the player on top of their board.  GM's that panic and swing with an off the cuff choice and disregard the board really ticks off the scouting staff.  How do you think they will go about their work for next season, knowing that the GM doesn't value it and will do what he wants anyway?

 

With high roster turnover rates in the NFL, most teams/GM's feel it is always a good idea to keep stocking the roster with the most elite level talent you can access, regardless of position.  There are a few that scout/draft by position of need though.  Mike Smith of the Falcons works this way, I've heard.

[scooter4910]

Polian came in and drafted Manning.. With an established roster; marvin Harrison and Tarik Glenn both on the roster; we still didn't go to the playoffs in Mannings first 2 years!

Grigson came in and drafted Luck, gutted the whole entire roster and has managed to get us to the playoffs every year and gone further every year.

1998...Manning first year we were 3-13

1999 ...we went 13-3 and lost at the divisional.

 

Grigson drafted Luck in name only. He wasn't even hired until Jan 2012 and was still trying to negotiate Mannings contract in March. Irsay actually made the choice.

[NewColtsFan]

1998...Manning first year we were 3-13

1999 ...we went 13-3 and lost at the divisional.

 

Grigson drafted luck in name only. He wasn't even hired until Jan 2012 and was still trying to negotiate Mannings contract in March. Irsay actually made the choice.

 

I'm not giving Grigson any credit for Luck,  but operating with only 2/3rds of a payroll budget, he put together a team that went 11-5 it's first season and went to the playoffs.

 

And we've gone further every year....

 

And yet a number of people -- and you appear to be one of them -- are just not happy.

 

You folks are a complete mystery to me.... 

[scooter4910]

I know....

 

And you're not the only one here who is unhappy with the teams performance the last three years....

 

You've got plenty of company.

Unhappy is a relative term....probably more disappointed. So close but what appears so far. Many of the pundits feel we made it one game closer this year only because Manning was hurt. If that's true then the last three years we've stayed basically static even with all the changes.

 

Thank God we're not Oakland or Jacksonville.

[scooter4910]

Their records were better than almost every team in history.

And we still have only one Indy Championship.....after almost 16 straight years of mostly great teams.

[scooter4910]

Yes...but in that scenario BPA doesn't apply.  Maybe I'm explaining this poorly.  BPA is only possible when judging the relative value of multiple available players.

Richardson was the only RB in the NFL that a team would take a first round pick for? I'll have to disagree with you.

 

Do I have any facts to back that up? No. But I'll bet the front office made a few calls and Richardson was the "best player available" that anyone was willing to give up.

[Colts_Fan12]

And we still have only one Indy Championship.....after almost 16 straight years of mostly great teams.

that's cause we got great QBs in Manning and Luck.Having them we build elite offenses around them and ignore the D we did it with Manning and were going the same path with Luck.

[NewColtsFan]

that's cause we got great QBs in Manning and Luck.Having them we build elite offenses around them and ignore the D we did it with Manning and were going the same path with Luck.

 

 

I love how you say we're ignoring the defense after we just spent our 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 on defense and brought in Cole, and Langford and Irving and Lowry in Free Agency.

 

If one didn't know better,  you would almost thing those things didn't even happen.

 

Except they did.

 

You're comparing 13-14 years of the Manning Era with the Luck Era which is just started it's 4th year.

[Colts_Fan12]

I love how you say we're ignoring the defense after we just spent our 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 on defense and brought in Cole, and Langford and Irving and Lowry in Free Agency.

If one didn't know better, you would almost thing those things didn't even happen.

Except they did.

You're comparing 13-14 years of the Manning Era with the Luck Era which is just started it's 4th year.

Ok let me rephrase that were ignoring all the difference making D players. it don't matter how many serviceable players we draft and sign you need play makers and great players on D. You also need talented youth witch we seem to be ignoring. Our D is made up of average and back up players or old guys on the decline. Then in FA and the draft we replace the people we lose with people of the same caliber or worse.

[C0lts088]

Ok let me rephrase that were ignoring all the difference making D players. it don't matter how many serviceable players we draft and sign you need play makers and great players on D. You also need talented youth witch we seem to be ignoring. Our D is made up of average and back up players or old guys on the decline. Then in FA and the draft we replace the people we lose with people of the same caliber or worse.

Idk about you but I've been a colts fan for 15 years now... And last year was probably our best defense yet! Ya sure we got blown up a few times... But I can't remember a better D minus the '06 playoffs (which was for a span off 4 games)

[Bobbycovert]

Richardson was the only RB in the NFL that a team would take a first round pick for? I'll have to disagree with you.

 

Do I have any facts to back that up? No. But I'll bet the front office made a few calls and Richardson was the "best player available" that anyone was willing to give up.

 

     Ah, my mistake.  I originally thought you didn't understand; now I know you don't want to understand.  Seriously, we could have a pretty good discussion about the benefits of BPA but instead we've wasted time talking in circles so you could defend a ridiculous comment.  You make a little less sense with each post.  

[csmopar]

Why? Because you disagree?

No. Because there's at least a dozen threads this is being discussed in. Mods just need to merge them all into a thead titled...The I am a better arm chair GM than a pro GM thread.

[csmopar]

He want's it to stop because he thinks a great pick. There are others (myself included) who think it was a waste of a draft pick.

PS, you folks click on the link then criticize the poster. Why not just steer clear of the post and let people do their own thing?

Actually no. Don't put words into my mouth when you can search my recent posts and clearly see where I am not a fan of the first round choice of a WR. However, there's over a dozen places this same question has been discussee and is being discussed.

[amfootball]

I think it is important to mention when BPA picks are made. I had posted this on another thread but smart GMs understand when to make the BPA pick versus drafting for need. I think in round one there are so many players to be had at every position that it is a round that primarily sees teams take the best player available at their most critical position of need. That is what typical happens with that round. Then you add to that the depth at a certain position and that also helps determine selections. This draft was stacked with WRs and linemen so again in round one you would most likely see a team that is all set at WR or line wait to take that position to later in the draft given it is a deep position for them. I think it is all these things combined that has many scratching their heads over at the Dorsett pick. Still, he seems like he could be a very good player that could contribute sooner rather than later although I wonder how much playing he will see this upcoming year given the number of receivers he has to compete with.

[csmopar]

I think it is important to mention when BPA picks are made. I had posted this on another thread but smart GMs understand when to make the BPA pick versus drafting for need. I think in round one there are so many players to be had at every position that it is a round that primarily sees teams take the best player available at their most critical position of need. That is what typical happens with that round. Then you add to that the depth at a certain position and that also helps determine selections. This draft was stacked with WRs and linemen so again in round one you would most likely see a team that is all set at WR or line wait to take that position to later in the draft given it is a deep position for them. I think it is all these things combined that has many scratching their heads over at the Dorsett pick. Still, he seems like he could be a very good player that could contribute sooner rather than later although I wonder how much playing he will see this upcoming year given the number of receivers he has to compete with.

 

 

I agree with that for the most part. 

But sometimes, there's a player you like so much, you want to take him, even if its doesn't fit a need. Bonus is  when it screws with the plans of your division rival and your conference rival.

[amfootball]

I agree with that for the most part. 

But sometimes, there's a player you like so much, you want to take him, even if its doesn't fit a need. Bonus is  when it screws with the plans of your division rival and your conference rival.

Which conference rival did it mess with?

[ruksak]

Which conference rival did it mess with?

Houston wanted Dorsett, or so the story goes. They got burned pretty hard by this selection. 

 

EDIT: Saw you said "conference rival". Sorry. I suppose that had something to do with NE. 

[amfootball]

Houston wanted Dorsett, or so the story goes. They got burned pretty hard by this selection. 

 

EDIT: Saw you said "conference rival". Sorry. I suppose that had something to do with NE. 

How does it burn NE? Pats were not going to draft WR. They did not draft one the entire draft.

[ruksak]

How does it burn NE? Pats were not going to draft WR. They did not draft one the entire draft.

I agree this move doesn't affect NE directly. Only if Dorsett is a beast and lights the Pats up on the field will there be any truth to csmopar's statement above. 

 

I misread your post and thought you said "What division rival". 

[csmopar]

How does it burn NE? Pats were not going to draft WR. They did not draft one the entire draft.

 

I agree this move doesn't affect NE directly. Only if Dorsett is a beast and lights the Pats up on the field will there be any truth to csmopar's statement above. 

 

I misread your post and thought you said "What division rival". 

 

 

I actually was tying NE into it.  It did mess with them, assuming the report is true, that they had agreed to trade down with Houston so Houston could grab Dorsett.  Rumor has it, Houston was gonna give up a couple good picks.  So It mainly screwed with NE's deal.  And obviously messed with the Texans.

[CoachLite]

BPA vs. need is "a false dichotomy" - a simple minded mischaracterization.  The reality of those decisions are much more complex than people want to acknowledge. But people will believe whatever it is they believe.

[amfootball]

I actually was tying NE into it.  It did mess with them, assuming the report is true, that they had agreed to trade down with Houston so Houston could grab Dorsett.  Rumor has it, Houston was gonna give up a couple good picks.  So It mainly screwed with NE's deal.  And obviously messed with the Texans.

The opposite is true with NE. Most thought the Colts would take Brown at that spot and when the didn't it, he fell to NE filling their biggest need this off-season.

[csmopar]

The opposite is true with NE. Most thought the Colts would take Brown at that spot and when the didn't it, he fell to NE filling their biggest need this off-season.

 

 

True, very true, but we also know how Hoodie loves extra draft picks.  Plus, seeing the picture of him when Indy announced and his facial expression was priceless.

[amfootball]

True, very true, but we also know how Hoodie loves extra draft picks.  Plus, seeing the picture of him when Indy announced and his facial expression was priceless.

The Pats traded with Cleveland later in the draft and ended up with 11 total picks. Bill has the same facial expression no matter what.

 

[csmopar]

The Pats traded with Cleveland later in the draft and ended up with 11 total picks. Bill has the same facial expression no matter what.

 

 

 

yeah.

[jvan1973]

The opposite is true with NE. Most thought the Colts would take Brown at that spot and when the didn't it, he fell to NE filling their biggest need this off-season.

corner was a bigger need than DT for the pats

[amfootball]

corner was a bigger need than DT for the pats

They addressed corner in FA and also have CBs currently on the team projected as potential starters - Dennard, Butler, Ryan. 

[bavanlan]

Ummm....we traded away our #1 for Richardson so he was our #1.

And frankly what has been saving us these last couple of years has been Luck which Grigs basically had nothing to do with.

The Richardson trade was out of need, which basically craps on the whole theory of using need as the determining factor since it was by far the worst use of a 1st on that list.

[gacker65]

You could be right....

 

But,  I think Dorsett is a little more polished than Dante was coming out of Mississippi.

Actually he's not.  Dorsett is a poor route runner and has hands problems, same as Moncrief.  Try again.

[NewColtsFan]

Actually he's not.  Dorsett is a poor route runner and has hands problems, same as Moncrief.  Try again.

 

No need to try again.

 

We see the same thing differently.

 

We'll just agree to disagree.

[jskinnz]

I think it is important to mention when BPA picks are made. I had posted this on another thread but smart GMs understand when to make the BPA pick versus drafting for need. I think in round one there are so many players to be had at every position that it is a round that primarily sees teams take the best player available at their most critical position of need. That is what typical happens with that round. Then you add to that the depth at a certain position and that also helps determine selections. This draft was stacked with WRs and linemen so again in round one you would most likely see a team that is all set at WR or line wait to take that position to later in the draft given it is a deep position for them. I think it is all these things combined that has many scratching their heads over at the Dorsett pick. Still, he seems like he could be a very good player that could contribute sooner rather than later although I wonder how much playing he will see this upcoming year given the number of receivers he has to compete with.

 

Yeah, that is a bunch of nonsense.

[gacker65]

No need to try again.

 

We see the same thing differently.

 

We'll just agree to disagree.

Just over look the obvious and everything will be alright.  Thank you

[NewColtsFan]

Just over look the obvious and everything will be alright.  Thank you

 

Just as I thought....

 

I took no shot at you or your position.

 

And yet you felt the need to take a shot at me.

 

That was.....   predictable.

 

Next time you wonder why I don't get into debates with you,   think back to this exchange......