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5 Reasons 2011 Season Proves Peyton Manning Is Better Than Tom Brady


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#1 bayone

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 12:17 PM


Ist its the bleacher report so totally depends on particular columnist if worthy , I will let u all decide


Intro


The floundering Indianapolis Colts are headed inexorably to a winless season. WithoutPeyton Manning under center, the Colts' numerous flaws have been exposed.

The New England Patriots defense has been a liability this season, and so Tom Bradyand his excellent tight ends and receivers have had to carry the load.

Brady is one of the best, certainly, but 2011 should finalize the debate over who is the best quarterback. Here are five reasons why.

Discussed are


1. The Patriots Didn't Fall Apart When Brady Went Down in 2008

2. Manning's Record Against the Patriots Has Steadily Improved

3. Manning's in-Game Adjustments Separate Him from Brady

4. Manning Makes His Receivers Better

5. Manning Has Had Poor Teams Around Him That He's Elevated Through His Excellence

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/982318-5-reasons-2011-season-proves-peyton-manning-is-better-than-tom-brady#/articles/982318-5-reasons-2011-season-proves-peyton-manning-is-better-than-tom-brady

Forgive any typos, try to catch, but have multiple progressive disabilities

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#2 Buck Showalter

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 12:21 PM

Ist its the bleacher report so totally depends on particular columnist if worthy , I will let u all decide

Intro

The floundering Indianapolis Colts are headed inexorably to a winless season. WithoutPeyton Manning under center, the Colts' numerous flaws have been exposed.
The New England Patriots defense has been a liability this season, and so Tom Bradyand his excellent tight ends and receivers have had to carry the load.
Brady is one of the best, certainly, but 2011 should finalize the debate over who is the best quarterback. Here are five reasons why.
Discussed are

1. The Patriots Didn't Fall Apart When Brady Went Down in 2008
2. Manning's Record Against the Patriots Has Steadily Improved
3. Manning's in-Game Adjustments Separate Him from Brady
4. Manning Makes His Receivers Better
5. Manning Has Had Poor Teams Around Him That He's Elevated Through His Excellence
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/982318-5-reasons-2011-season-proves-peyton-manning-is-better-than-tom-brady#/articles/982318-5-reasons-2011-season-proves-peyton-manning-is-better-than-tom-brady

Basically,
I would agree,
5 good points,
but nothing I didn't already know!!!

#3 bayone

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 12:42 PM

Basically,
I would agree,
5 good points,
but nothing I didn't already know!!!


agreed ,, still , it was someone elses viewpoint beside us fans
Forgive any typos, try to catch, but have multiple progressive disabilities

#4 21isSuperman

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 12:53 PM

This thread is on a short leash, just letting everyone know
When Bob Sanders executes a push up, he does not push himself up. He pushes the world down.
When Bob Sanders was 12, a cobra bit him in the leg. After 4 days of excruciating pain, the cobra died.
Tom Brady can throw a football pretty far. Bob Sanders can throw Tom Brady even farther.
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#5 dn4192

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 01:01 PM

I think both are great QB's and will finish their careers in the top 10 of all time greats. I am not sure you need to go much farther then that...

#6 bayone

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 01:11 PM

This thread is on a short leash, just letting everyone know


Thats why I warned about its source
Forgive any typos, try to catch, but have multiple progressive disabilities

#7 WSO

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 01:20 PM

Its the Bleacher Report so don't put too much into it

#8 ViriLudant

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 02:48 PM

*yawn*

A. Bleacher Report
B. Bellichick had chosen a suitable backup QB. The Colts were too inept to do so.
C. The Patriots played the easiest schedule in NFL history in 2008.

Once again.

*yawn*

#9 dynasty13

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 03:12 PM

as long as we keep it respectable this thread should be fine.

A couple thougthts:

Following Brady's injury, yes, he 'only' went 10-6. But that was also followed up by a 14-2 season, and what will likely go down this year as a 13-3/12-4 season...with what is widely considered a horrendously weak team on the defensive side of the ball. Remember a few years back when many looked back on what the Colts were able to do with a weak defense? With Peyton Manning they were able to go what...12-4...14-2....13-3? Pretty much exactly what Brady is doing now. These guys have always been closer than either side wants to admit....regardless of what stat they are trying to manipulate to put their guy on top.

Think about this also...What would the Patriots be the last few years without Tom Brady? How about last year when Brady played mistake-free football. They're sitting pretty right now at 10-3...but looking at each game...we are 9-1 in games where we've scored 30+ points. We are 1-2 in games that we've scored under 30. Without Tom Brady, we arent going 11-5...this team isnt built the same way it was in '08 when Cassell stepped in. But we still would have the talent and coaching to win some ballgames. The Colts dont have the coaching or a capable backup...THAT is why they havent won. The comparisons between the '08 Patriots and the '11 Colts are less about the absence of Tom Brady and Peyton Manning...its more about the coaching and ability to adapt. Even the worst teams in NFL history have managed to win a game or 2. This Colts team shouldnt be losing every single game...there's something else going on there that has nothing to do without the absence of Peyton Manning.


Tom Brady is doing right now what Peyton did a few years ago...and what he did a few years ago was enough for many of you to proclaim him as the greatest of all time...let alone the better of the two.

"Tonight, a dynasty is born, baby" - Rams receiver Ricky Proehl, February 3, 2002

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#10 oldunclemark

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 03:14 PM

Its the Bleacher Report so don't put too much into it



Sarrow..what exactly IS 'Bleacher Report'....

#11 GoPats

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 03:40 PM

Sarrow..what exactly IS 'Bleacher Report'....


It's a blog site.

There are good arguments for saying Manning is better than Brady. Unfortunately, none of the reasons given in Bayone's link/story qualify as "good."

Using the same numbered bullets:

1. The Patriots didn't fall apart because Belichick is 10 times the coach that Caldwell is, and because Matt Cassel is better than Collins, Painter, and Orlovsky put together. Not having a capable backup is not a legitimate point in this discussion.

2. What does Manning's record against the Patriots have to do with comparing him against Brady? I just don't get that one at all. Brady doesn't play against his own defense, nor does he play ON that defense.

3. Both Manning and Brady are masterful at reading defenses and making in-game adjustments. I'm not going to pretend to be knowledgeable enough to make a call on that one either way. I don't have enough information or insight to call that one, and neither does the writer... he must be in both huddles if he's saying that. (Sarcasm. No one could really assess or measure that without knowing exactly what's going on with gameplans, play-calling, etc. It's an asinine comment to make.)

4. Manning does make his receivers better. But so does Brady. What did Deion Branch do in Seattle? What was Wes Welker before he came to New England? Again, just an *ic point by the writer. It's like saying, "both guys breathe oxygen."

5. There's this epidemic with some Indy fans that you now all seem to believe that your 2011 roster is not only completely devoid of talent (which is not the case), but that it's been that way since 1998. Again, just a totally insane comment to make. The Colts have never had defenses on par with the Patriots of the 2001-2005 years, but offensively, for the most part, they've been more talented than the Patriots have been over the years. Only recently (like since 2007 or so) has that changed.

Let me repeat myself... a smart person who follows the NFL closely could make a very reasonable argument that Manning is better than Brady. This article, however, is hooey, and fails miserably to do that.

Interestingly enough, this was a hot topic on another board this morning due to this story:

http://www.footballn...analysis/11949/

The writer subjectively ranks Manning ahead of Brady on the all-time list, but then uses some metrics and comes out with #12 getting a slight edge.

(Sigh.) I wish folks could just enjoy seeing the rivalry without feeling the need to rank them, and I hope with all sincerity that Manning comes back at full strength so it can continue.

#12 Bond Shane

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 05:38 PM

*yawn*

A. Bleacher Report
B. Bellichick had chosen a suitable backup QB. The Colts were too inept to do so.
C. The Patriots played the easiest schedule in NFL history in 2008.

Once again.

*yawn*


** YAWN **

D. Pats have the smartest and the best coach of all time.
E. Patriots had a great defense.
F. Average time Tom Brady gets from his Offensive line is 5.5 seconds vs 2 ish for Manning.
G. Manning has better QBR vs Brady in playoffs.


** YAWN**

Really, this was repeated several times by many. Give it up, if you dont mind.

#13 Andy

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 06:27 PM

All great reasons, but number 1 can be rebutted by Pats fans...

Andy
Writer for: The Montreal Gazette, and various other websites

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#14 WSO

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 06:32 PM

Just let the thread die. . .Bleacher Report should be the last place you get any information from. If you go to their site and do a search there are equal amounts of Brady>Manning and Manning>Brady articles written mostly by amateurs.

#15 Superman

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:25 PM

Let me repeat myself... a smart person who follows the NFL closely could make a very reasonable argument that Manning is better than Brady. This article, however, is hooey, and fails miserably to do that.


You know what I think would be fun? You argue why Manning is better, and I'll argue why Brady is better. Let's cut through the B-S and see what we get. We all know how pointless it is the other way around. Let's see some genuine banter for a bit.

...

You game?
LET'S HUNT

#16 GoPats

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:01 PM

You know what I think would be fun? You argue why Manning is better, and I'll argue why Brady is better. Let's cut through the B-S and see what we get. We all know how pointless it is the other way around. Let's see some genuine banter for a bit.

...

You game?


That is an excellent idea, Supes!

Give me until Monday. I'm on a phone (and hate typing on this thing) and wanna think this through... Cool?


#17 GoColts8818

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:08 PM

Guys does it really matter anymore because clearly Aaron Rodgers has surpassed them both...just kidding of course.
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#18 Superman

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:10 PM

That is an excellent idea, Supes!

Give me until Monday. I'm on a phone (and hate typing on this thing) and wanna think this through... Cool?


Yup, let's do it.
LET'S HUNT

#19 Dustin

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:12 PM

Guys does it really matter anymore because clearly Tim Tebow has surpassed them both...just kidding of course.

Fixed that for ya.

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#20 GoColts8818

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:13 PM

Fixed that for ya.

good point...By the way 9 more shopping days till Tim Tebows birthday...
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#21 Dustin

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:17 PM

good point...By the way 9 more shopping days till Tim Tebows birthday...

Great!! I'll have to stock up on some Tebrew to celebrate!!!!

I am become Boomstick, Destroyer of Worlds.


#22 Superman

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 10:01 PM

This is why Tom Brady is better than Peyton Manning:

(Everyone keep in mind, I'm a Colts fan. I definitely prefer Manning to Brady. This is just a diversion from the way we normally do these things. Don't pull my card.)

Let me just start with a rebuttal to the BR article quoted here, which even I as a Colts fan think is absolute nonsense.

1. The Patriots Didn't Fall Apart When Brady Went Down in 2008
This is very true. The Patriots even went 11-5 without Tom Brady, compared to the Colts, who are already five losses past a chance at finishing with a .500 record. The difference is that the Patriots had built a team that was good enough to go 18-0 before losing the Super Bowl. That team came back pretty much in tact the following year, including probably the most talented wide receiver in NFL history, a possession receiver that caught more passes than any other receiver in a three-year span, and a defensive unit that wasn't giving up almost 30 points a game. The backup quarterback was able to complete 63% of his passes and throw 21 touchdowns. In other words, the reason the Patriots didn't fall apart is because they were built better from top to bottom, not as reliant on one player. That doesn't mean the one player they lost wasn't as good as the player the Colts lost.

2. Manning's Record Against the Patriots Has Steadily Improved
This doesn't prove that Manning is better than Brady, same as the fact that the Colts couldn't beat the Patriots prior to 2005 didn't prove that Brady was better than Manning. It proves that the Colts had a resilient team that could weather a storm and hang around until things broke their way, which is pretty much exactly what happened in the 2006 AFC Championship game. What has happened since 2005 is that the Patriots defense has slowly eroded, they've spent more and more resources on putting offensive playmakers around Tom Brady, their defensive leaders started to retire, and the Colts were able to take advantage of this. You can't say that Manning has been beating Tom Brady if you don't believe in the "Tom Brady was beating Manning" storyline, and I don't.

3. Manning's in-Game Adjustments Separate Him from Brady
So what? No one does what Manning does at the line of scrimmage. But haven't Colts fans argued for several seasons now that the team doesn't run the football enough? Isn't that partially attributable to Peyton Manning? Meanwhile, Tom Brady and his offense have been one of the most potent units in football since 2004, they've been balanced (save for a couple seasons), and they've done that without having to make a bunch of changes at the line of scrimmage. Brady's efficiency numbers are off the charts, especially the past two seasons. I'd say his "adjustments" are just where they need to be.

4. Manning Makes His Receivers Better
Who exactly was Tom Brady throwing the ball to from 2001-2005? Deion Branch? We saw what he did in Seattle, and then he came crawling back to the Patriots and was suddenly a legitimate NFL receiver. Look at Randy Moss: No doubt a great talent, but he was worthless in Oakland (traded for a 4th rounder to the Pats), and when he was three years older and had less physical dominance, the Pats traded him to Minnesota for an even better pick (a 3rd rounder). During those three years, Moss did nothing but set the single-season record for touchdowns, and the Brady-to-Moss connection terrorized every opponent in the league for two seasons (2007, 2009), until the bud fell off the rose early in 2010. Moss was already great, but Tom Brady made him better. No better example than that.

And let's not act like Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark are exactly chopped liver. All first round picks, all have record-setting seasons on their resumes. The Colts made it a point to build the team with an offensive slant, while the Patriots did the exact opposite. And Tom Brady still dragged a team with zero receivers to the playoffs in two straight seasons (2005, 2006), before he threw a fit and the team finally got serious about giving him someone to throw to. Leading receiver in 2006 was Reche Caldwell, who dropped two passes during the AFCCG, one for a touchdown. Think maybe that game turns out differently if Brady has someone half as good as Reggie or Marvin to throw to?

2010 saw Tom Brady throw 36 touchdown passes to rookie tight ends and receivers who are now being tried at defensive back a year later. He only threw 4 interceptions. It was, in many respects, more impressive than his 50 touchdown season in 2007, if only for the fact that he didn't have Randy Moss to throw to. And the Pats won 14 games with a team featuring the 8th worst defense in the league.

You can't argue that the Colts receivers aren't valuable just because they have terrible quarterbacks throwing them the ball in 2011.

5. Manning Has Had Poor Teams Around Him That He's Elevated Through His Excellence
Sure, the sole reason the Colts won 12 games 7 years in a row, and the sole reason they went to the playoffs 9 years in a row, is because Peyton Manning "elevated" them to contention by his mere presence. The standout players involved in those teams (James, Harrison, Wayne, Freeney, Mathis, Sanders, Clark, Addai, etc., all of whom have had pivotal playoffs moments since 2002) were just along for the ride. I've been having this argument with other Colts fans for a couple of years now: the supporting cast hasn't been as bad as we've made it out to be. All those guys are playmakers. Whatever 2011 is is a culmination of some bad decision making, poor coaching, and injuries finally catching up, along with the fact that the NFL is designed to knock good teams down. It's not solely due to Manning's absence, though that's obviously the most significant factor.

Think of all the good players the Colts don't have for one reason or another since their Super Bowl in 2006: Harrison, Sanders, Jake Scott, Brandon Stokley, Booger McFarland, Ryan Lilja, Gary Brackett, Kelvin Hayden, and so on. We miss every single one of them. Now, every team loses players, but to act like they've never had good players outside of Manning is ridiculous.

And what do you think the Patriots look like at any time over the past 5 years if you replace Tom Brady with Curtis Painter? Better coaching and maybe better defense wins them a few more games, but they're certainly not going to be much better than a four win team. But again, that's not because Manning is better than Brady, it's because Belichick is better than Jim Caldwell.

You can't ignore the fact that Tom Brady has been the winning quarterback on three Super Bowl teams. That does not in and of itself make him better than Peyton Manning, but it does have a bearing on the discussion.

Over the last five seasons, the statistical advantage that Peyton Manning used to hold has virtually disappeared, and that's with Manning attempting more passes.
LET'S HUNT

#23 21isSuperman

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 10:09 PM

That is an excellent idea, Supes!

Give me until Monday. I'm on a phone (and hate typing on this thing) and wanna think this through... Cool?

I must admit, I'm excited to see this
When Bob Sanders executes a push up, he does not push himself up. He pushes the world down.
When Bob Sanders was 12, a cobra bit him in the leg. After 4 days of excruciating pain, the cobra died.
Tom Brady can throw a football pretty far. Bob Sanders can throw Tom Brady even farther.
Please make sure to read the Forum Rules before posting or PM a mod if you have any questions

#24 -JJ-

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:20 AM

lol. me too.

I could give pluses and minus on manning. someday:)

#25 Jay305

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:28 AM

I dont know why everyone is getting all defensive or acting like this is somehow news.Most people have known this for awhile
Andrew Luck won me over when his mom put that little Colts horseshoe pin on his jacket.

#26 Coltssouth

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 06:14 AM

I must admit, I'm excited to see this


haha Me too.

#27 bayone

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 08:24 AM

This is why Tom Brady is better than Peyton Manning:

(Everyone keep in mind, I'm a Colts fan. I definitely prefer Manning to Brady. This is just a diversion from the way we normally do these things. Don't pull my card.)

Let me just start with a rebuttal to the BR article quoted here, which even I as a Colts fan think is absolute nonsense.

1. The Patriots Didn't Fall Apart When Brady Went Down in 2008
This is very true. The Patriots even went 11-5 without Tom Brady, compared to the Colts, who are already five losses past a chance at finishing with a .500 record. The difference is that the Patriots had built a team that was good enough to go 18-0 before losing the Super Bowl. That team came back pretty much in tact the following year, including probably the most talented wide receiver in NFL history, a possession receiver that caught more passes than any other receiver in a three-year span, and a defensive unit that wasn't giving up almost 30 points a game. The backup quarterback was able to complete 63% of his passes and throw 21 touchdowns. In other words, the reason the Patriots didn't fall apart is because they were built better from top to bottom, not as reliant on one player. That doesn't mean the one player they lost wasn't as good as the player the Colts lost.

2. Manning's Record Against the Patriots Has Steadily Improved
This doesn't prove that Manning is better than Brady, same as the fact that the Colts couldn't beat the Patriots prior to 2005 didn't prove that Brady was better than Manning. It proves that the Colts had a resilient team that could weather a storm and hang around until things broke their way, which is pretty much exactly what happened in the 2006 AFC Championship game. What has happened since 2005 is that the Patriots defense has slowly eroded, they've spent more and more resources on putting offensive playmakers around Tom Brady, their defensive leaders started to retire, and the Colts were able to take advantage of this. You can't say that Manning has been beating Tom Brady if you don't believe in the "Tom Brady was beating Manning" storyline, and I don't.

3. Manning's in-Game Adjustments Separate Him from Brady
So what? No one does what Manning does at the line of scrimmage. But haven't Colts fans argued for several seasons now that the team doesn't run the football enough? Isn't that partially attributable to Peyton Manning? Meanwhile, Tom Brady and his offense have been one of the most potent units in football since 2004, they've been balanced (save for a couple seasons), and they've done that without having to make a bunch of changes at the line of scrimmage. Brady's efficiency numbers are off the charts, especially the past two seasons. I'd say his "adjustments" are just where they need to be.

4. Manning Makes His Receivers Better
Who exactly was Tom Brady throwing the ball to from 2001-2005? Deion Branch? We saw what he did in Seattle, and then he came crawling back to the Patriots and was suddenly a legitimate NFL receiver. Look at Randy Moss: No doubt a great talent, but he was worthless in Oakland (traded for a 4th rounder to the Pats), and when he was three years older and had less physical dominance, the Pats traded him to Minnesota for an even better pick (a 3rd rounder). During those three years, Moss did nothing but set the single-season record for touchdowns, and the Brady-to-Moss connection terrorized every opponent in the league for two seasons (2007, 2009), until the bud fell off the rose early in 2010. Moss was already great, but Tom Brady made him better. No better example than that.

And let's not act like Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark are exactly chopped liver. All first round picks, all have record-setting seasons on their resumes. The Colts made it a point to build the team with an offensive slant, while the Patriots did the exact opposite. And Tom Brady still dragged a team with zero receivers to the playoffs in two straight seasons (2005, 2006), before he threw a fit and the team finally got serious about giving him someone to throw to. Leading receiver in 2006 was Reche Caldwell, who dropped two passes during the AFCCG, one for a touchdown. Think maybe that game turns out differently if Brady has someone half as good as Reggie or Marvin to throw to?

2010 saw Tom Brady throw 36 touchdown passes to rookie tight ends and receivers who are now being tried at defensive back a year later. He only threw 4 interceptions. It was, in many respects, more impressive than his 50 touchdown season in 2007, if only for the fact that he didn't have Randy Moss to throw to. And the Pats won 14 games with a team featuring the 8th worst defense in the league.

You can't argue that the Colts receivers aren't valuable just because they have terrible quarterbacks throwing them the ball in 2011.

5. Manning Has Had Poor Teams Around Him That He's Elevated Through His Excellence
Sure, the sole reason the Colts won 12 games 7 years in a row, and the sole reason they went to the playoffs 9 years in a row, is because Peyton Manning "elevated" them to contention by his mere presence. The standout players involved in those teams (James, Harrison, Wayne, Freeney, Mathis, Sanders, Clark, Addai, etc., all of whom have had pivotal playoffs moments since 2002) were just along for the ride. I've been having this argument with other Colts fans for a couple of years now: the supporting cast hasn't been as bad as we've made it out to be. All those guys are playmakers. Whatever 2011 is is a culmination of some bad decision making, poor coaching, and injuries finally catching up, along with the fact that the NFL is designed to knock good teams down. It's not solely due to Manning's absence, though that's obviously the most significant factor.

Think of all the good players the Colts don't have for one reason or another since their Super Bowl in 2006: Harrison, Sanders, Jake Scott, Brandon Stokley, Booger McFarland, Ryan Lilja, Gary Brackett, Kelvin Hayden, and so on. We miss every single one of them. Now, every team loses players, but to act like they've never had good players outside of Manning is ridiculous.

And what do you think the Patriots look like at any time over the past 5 years if you replace Tom Brady with Curtis Painter? Better coaching and maybe better defense wins them a few more games, but they're certainly not going to be much better than a four win team. But again, that's not because Manning is better than Brady, it's because Belichick is better than Jim Caldwell.

You can't ignore the fact that Tom Brady has been the winning quarterback on three Super Bowl teams. That does not in and of itself make him better than Peyton Manning, but it does have a bearing on the discussion.

Over the last five seasons, the statistical advantage that Peyton Manning used to hold has virtually disappeared, and that's with Manning attempting more passes.


Excellent comeback rebuttal,

As I made sure to note in my OP

" 1st its the bleacher report so totally depends on particular columnist if worthy , I will let u decide "


I am very glad this turned into a friendly discussion on article merits & not a big debate issue
Forgive any typos, try to catch, but have multiple progressive disabilities

#28 ViriLudant

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 08:41 AM

** YAWN **

D. Pats have the smartest and the best coach of all time.
E. Patriots had a great defense.
F. Average time Tom Brady gets from his Offensive line is 5.5 seconds vs 2 ish for Manning.
G. Manning has better QBR vs Brady in playoffs.


** YAWN**

Really, this was repeated several times by many. Give it up, if you dont mind.


The Patriots had a great defense in 2008?

Really? 10th ranked defense against the softest schedule in the NFL?

As for BB, a coach can only coach; he can't get the players to make the plays.

Show proof of this 5.5 vs 2. This is something that Colt fans like to make up. Funny how this argument wasn't made back when the Colts O-line was phenomenal, from 2000-2006.

#29 Bond Shane

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:16 AM

The Patriots had a great defense in 2008?

Really? 10th ranked defense against the softest schedule in the NFL?

As for BB, a coach can only coach; he can't get the players to make the plays.

Show proof of this 5.5 vs 2. This is something that Colt fans like to make up. Funny how this argument wasn't made back when the Colts O-line was phenomenal, from 2000-2006.


10th ranked defense in 32 teams?. I would take that any day.

Oh really, Coach doesnt play?. How about Coach doesnt make bone head calls and takes so many calculted risks ( like going for 4th down etc ). Lets not under estimate Bill Belichick. That would be too naive.

5.5 vs 2 was not something Colts fan made up. Infact i read it from a link by a study. I will post when i find. Neverthless, we can see that clearly how long Brady sits in the pocket.

#30 bayone

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:58 AM

The Patriots had a great defense in 2008?

Really? 10th ranked defense against the softest schedule in the NFL?

As for BB, a coach can only coach; he can't get the players to make the plays.

Show proof of this 5.5 vs 2. This is something that Colt fans like to make up.

Funny how this argument wasn't made back when the Colts O-line was phenomenal, from 2000-2006.


Colts 0-line was much better but not phenomenal-
Example 1 from o-line chris demuling was paid alot by Detroit to be a FA acquisition and later dumped, he said the Lions and others that offered him money never realized that it wasnt the 0 line that was good, it was Peyton making the 0-line look that good

Same with charles Johnson now, of course some of the player on 0-line were quite good so not saying that applied to all , but Peyton still made the entire 0-lline look better
\
again, i started this for friendly conversation about the article quality, no long debate on who is better, both are tops of an era
Forgive any typos, try to catch, but have multiple progressive disabilities

#31 coltsfan84

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 11:16 AM

Forgot to mention that Peyton has a much better attitude also.

#32 ViriLudant

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 11:25 AM

Forgot to mention that Peyton has a much better attitude also.


Yeah, because when he tossed his O-line under the boss, he demonstrated that great attitude.

Or when he got into it with Wayne on the sideline.

Or when he and Saturday got into a bit of a match on the sideline.

Yep, great attitude.

Never mind that the term "Manning face" is a real term in the sports world.


Listen, I truly do respect Peyton Manning. He's the 2nd best QB over the last 20 years, in my opinion. Yet there are clearly reasons why Patriot fans would prefer Brady, just like there are reasons why Colt fans prefer Peyton.

#33 Colts20593

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 11:34 AM

Honestly I am tired of this arguement. Do I think Manning is a better QB, yes I do, there is no other like 18. But really I (and I think a lot of people on this board) have a tremendous amount of respect for Tom Brady. I get tired of seeing people trying to undercut Brady and his accomplishments. We are talking about the two greatest QB's of this generation (and arguably all time).

They are 1A and 1B

Appreciate greatness folks, because it won't be around for many more years.

#34 Bond Shane

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 11:37 AM

Yeah, because when he tossed his O-line under the boss, he demonstrated that great attitude.

Or when he got into it with Wayne on the sideline.

Or when he and Saturday got into a bit of a match on the sideline.

Yep, great attitude.

Never mind that the term "Manning face" is a real term in the sports world.


Listen, I truly do respect Peyton Manning. He's the 2nd best QB over the last 20 years, in my opinion. Yet there are clearly reasons why Patriot fans would prefer Brady, just like there are reasons why Colt fans prefer Peyton.


This is the first year Brady has a defense like Manning did for most of his career.

And did you watch Brady with OC?. I mean 1st year?.

#35 Dustin

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 01:23 PM

Honestly I am tired of this arguement. Do I think Manning is a better QB, yes I do, there is no other like 18. But really I (and I think a lot of people on this board) have a tremendous amount of respect for Tom Brady. I get tired of seeing people trying to undercut Brady and his accomplishments. We are talking about the two greatest QB's of this generation (and arguably all time).

They are 1A and 1B

Appreciate greatness folks, because it won't be around for many more years.

Now there is a new debate..... who is A and who is B?

I am become Boomstick, Destroyer of Worlds.


#36 bayone

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 07:45 AM

10th ranked defense in 32 teams?. I would take that any day.

Oh really, Coach doesnt play?. How about Coach doesnt make bone head calls and takes so many calculted risks ( like going for 4th down etc ). Lets not under estimate Bill Belichick. That would be too naive.

5.5 vs 2 was not something Colts fan made up. Infact i read it from a link by a study. I will post when i find. Neverthless, we can see that clearly how long Brady sits in the pocket.


In the 1st Texan game last year to start the season Manning was routinely clocked at throwing the ball at 1.7 seconds many times, virtually always 2 or less, That 1.7 figure sticks out as I saw it on the TV screen many times & it was mentioned so often by game comentator

I dont know what Brady is clocked at, I know it looks much longer when i watch a game
Forgive any typos, try to catch, but have multiple progressive disabilities

#37 pacolts56

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:30 AM

This thread is on a short leash, just letting everyone know


Promises promises.

“With Andrew, the "it" factor is his knack for making people better.

He wants his teammates to have success, wants them to get the credit.

I’ve never seen anybody like him in that respect.”  – HS Coach Eliot Allen


#38 Moose Of Woe

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:50 PM

In the 1st Texan game last year to start the season Manning was routinely clocked at throwing the ball at 1.7 seconds many times, virtually always 2 or less, That 1.7 figure sticks out as I saw it on the TV screen many times & it was mentioned so often by game comentator

I dont know what Brady is clocked at, I know it looks much longer when i watch a game


Brady had 10+ seconds on a few occasions this season. 2-3 times he made nice little move to slip a tackle and then there would be absolutely nobody else near him. I'll certainly give him credit for slipping the tackler as that was all Brady.

In 2-3 other cases it was the other team unable to penetrate his O-line whatsoever.

He regularly gets 5+ seconds to throw. Not an elaboration. Watch the games and count. There's a reason the announcers always say, "Brady...with time....Brady...with time...Brady...ALL DAY....." Better defenses cut that time to 3.5-4.

Manning had some good O-lines 2000-2006. However, that pales in comparison to the luxury Brady currently has. Brady might just have the best O-line ever assembled. Even WITH backups they give him all the time in the world. That falls on not just talent but great coaching.

When teams CAN get pressure on him regularly he's a completely different QB. When teams can break past his line he completely buckles if a receiver hasn't become wide open. If you give him ALL DAY he WILL make the right throws to his open receivers.


It will be interesting to see if Denver wants to win/opts to bring the heat all game or sit on it's hands and hope for the best. I do think they're one of the few D's in the NFL that can get behind the Pats' O-line regularly. I don't see Tebow going out and lighting up the Pats for 20+ so they'd best bring their A game on D.

Having said that in the playoffs the Pats will likely meet one or both:

-The Texans (A team built to get to Manning and even with Williams out are still a formidable pass rush. Plus they have the O to keep up)
-The Ravens. (We've seen what happens against them before. If Lewis is out the Pats' chances are better but still, not so hot.)
-The Steelers.

They Pats have a shot at beating any of them of course, but I don't see it happening when they're all over Brady and he no longer has a great D to bail him out. If they meet any of the above in their first playoff game it's probably another one and done for them.

#39 GoPats

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:43 AM

You know what I think would be fun? You argue why Manning is better, and I'll argue why Brady is better. Let's cut through the B-S and see what we get. We all know how pointless it is the other way around. Let's see some genuine banter for a bit.

...

You game?


I'm going to handle this a little differently since this started with me yapping about why these five reasons are not good ones.

If anyone wants to make a case that Manning is the GOAT and/or better than Brady, here's where I would take it. And keep in mind, I'm a Patriots fan.

PRODUCTION

This is, first and foremost, the reason I would chose to argue that Manning is the better QB. Brady's numbers have been impressive in recent years, yes, but...

No one - let me repeat that - NO ONE in the history of the NFL has produced week-in, and week-out, like Peyton Manning. The numbers are eye-popping, and a lot of what we're seeing with the prominence of the passing game in today's NFL can be traced back to Manning's accomplishments. He's changed football in many ways, and his achievements and production have paved the path for guys like Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, and even the younger generation of Matthew Staffords and Matt Ryans.

After throwing 26 TDs and for nearly 3800 yards as a rookie, Manning did nothing except set a new standard when you look at quarterbacks' measurables. From his 11 seasons with 4,000+ yards (a record) to his 6 seasons with at least 30 TDs (also unmatched), to having more seasons (13) with at least 25 TDs... there is no other way to describe his production other than "totally unmatched."

Had it not been for Manning's current injury, coupled with Brett Favre being unwilling to retire when his time had come, it's pretty clear that by the time he hung 'em up, Manning would have held every significant passing record in the book. Favre holds those records strictly due to his longevity... if you look at numbers on the basis of per-season production, it's not even close. It's fair to speculate that Old Brett saw Manning closing in on some of his marks, and that could have a lot to do with him hanging on longer than he should have, in a vain attempt to put his records out of reach because he knows Manning wouldn't do what he did and would retire when his time was up.

When it comes to individual accomplishments and awards, no one can come close. That includes his four MVP awards... an unmatched achievement in football.

GAME COMPREHENSION

It took a minute or two to come up with the bold-faced "title" of this section. Because I'm not just talking about in-game adjustments, I'm talking about all of the work that goes into game preparation.

Since we're talking Brady-Manning here, let me start by saying that both guys are outstanding at reading defenses and making adjustments that allow them to exploit match-ups. Changing a pattern at the line of scrimmage, or audibling out of the play entirely, is something they both do well. But let's not forget, Manning has been doing it longer, and more or less has been Brady's role model when it comes to this aspect of playing QB. (Brady himself, in the "Top 100 NFL Players" of the 2011 season production, said so in no uncertain terms.) The cerebral part of Manning's game is, however, slightly superior to Brady's.

TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS

This is where the Brady backers deliberately try to blur the lines between "team" accomplishments and "individual" accomplishments.

While it's true that Manning was the benefactor of having some very talented offenses in the early part of the 2000s, he's never had the kind of defenses that have, on occasion, bailed out Brady's Patriots. The 2006 unit did have an historic turn-around in the postseason, yet they also surrendered a ton of first-half points to New England in the AFC Championship Game.

Manning has never had a Ty Law making timely interceptions and returning them for TDs.

He's never had a unit that could shut down the other guys and help the team win an ugly game by something like a 12-10 score.

And as he's sat out the entire 2011 season so far, his defense has not really risen to the challenge of winning close, tightly-contested games, like the Patriots did in 2008 without Brady.

One of the biggest knocks on Manning is that he's sub-500 as a starter in the postseason. But what about Brady? After starting off on fire as "Mr. Postseason," he's been very human. Why? It's simple... his defense is not what it used to be. Brady and the Patriots have, in many ways, become what the Colts always were - an offensive-minded team that does not have the defense needed to win in the playoffs. Keep in mind that NE hasn't won a postseason game in four years... or roughly since the last vestiges of the championship defense went away.



Other random reasons:

- His commercials are much funnier than Brady's.
- His guest host appearance on "Saturday Night Live" was much better than Brady's.



And if all that's not enough... let's recall what Tom Brady has to say about it:


"To me, he's the greatest of all-time."
"What he's accomplished and the way that he studies, the way he prepares. He's really got a killer instinct too. I've been fortunate to be around him on a lot of occasions and we always hit it off; we have a great relationship and he's a friend of mine and someone that I always watch and admire because he always wants to improve, he always wants to get better and he doesn't settle for anything less than the best."


"So when you watch the best and you're able to learn from the best, hopefully that helps me get better."



#40 Coltssouth

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 01:07 PM

But let's not forget, Manning has been doing it longer, and more or less has been Brady's role model when it comes to this aspect of playing QB. (Brady himself, in the "Top 100 NFL Players" of the 2011 season production, said so in no uncertain terms.) The cerebral part of Manning's game is, however, slightly superior to Brady's.


Not to be getting into the middle of this as I want to sit back and enjoy it, but to be fair I did seen on the NFL segment of the 2006 Colts where Peyton said he noticed Tom doing the no-huddle and thought hmmmm. That's a pretty good idea. He also stated that the NFL is a copy-cat league.

Just throwing that out there. I think the rivalry has made them both strive to be better and in a way has contributed to them being the best out there.






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