Offensive Line..... Road to the Championship....

[Deano1818]

As I see threads about getting this RB or that RB for next year, I am of the belief that a great RB, would be a waste on this team. (As it is)

A great example of this is in my home state of Dallas (I am from the north, but I got here as soon as I could)

The Cowboys of the Troy Aikman years had one fantastic part of the team.

The offensive line

If you get a chance to see a replay, look WHEN Emmit Smith (HOF) took an INITIAL hit.

In most cases, his first hit happened 2-4 yards PAST the line of scrimmage.

The offensive line was enormous, and outmuscled and pushed people back.

Troy Aikman, became a HOF behind this line. Troy Aikman was average at best before and less than

Average after that great OL deteriorated

Troy Aikman had ALL DAY to find an open reciever......

Without that OL, though both were good, neither Emmit nor Aikman would have not come close to the HOF

The other benefit that you get with a good OL is you keep the ball, and wear down the other team defense

By the end of the 3rd quarter...... They can't stop anything.... They are beat up and exhausted.

The last benefit from having a great OL, is that your defense stays fresh, as you control the clock and the ball.

If we want to get serious about winning a championship, (and keeping our superstar QB healthy for 15 years) we need to stop worrying so much about getting superstar RBs (and WRs) and put some more

effort into the OL

I get it..... It's not sexy..... But it makes EVERYONE much better

So for now,

An ENORMOUS, pile moving right Guard, is step one

Step two is a healthy RT, that is also nimble enough to pass protect at even an average level,

But can run block better than most.

[masterlock]

For the most part agree, except to say that size, while necessary, is not sufficient by itself. You also need strength and technique. Otherwise, all you have is some big fat guy.

 

The Colts got man-handled by the Patriots because they lost in the trenches. So yes, the linesman are incredibly important.

[Jdubu]

Back when T. Davis played in Denver, he rushed the crap out of the ball and his oline was one of the smaller lines iirc. They had a great scheme though. They were similarly built like us though. Great QB, really nice WR or two, really good TE and a pretty good defense. They also had coaching. Kubiak and Phillips iirc with shannahan at the helm.

We have some athletes and size on the oline, I question the technique we employ. Of course that could be said all over this team. It's very blah. X's and O's at its simplest form imo. Very little creative creation throughout. We throw in a creative wrinkle, but not enough during the game to call us innovative. The pats, the sea chickens and other good teams, they employ creative wrinkles all throughout the games. We need our coaches to better evolve, this isn't hat on a hat, muscle on muscle of the 70's and 80's, this is about scheming for each team differently each week, perhaps each quarter.

[Deano1818]

During the playoffs, when the weather is poor in many cases.... having the advantage in the trenches seems to be the deciding factor in the vast majority of the games

 

When its cold, windy, rainy, and snowing.... many of the sexy plays, that worked in September, simply don't work.

 

That deep up and out  was a TD in Sept, in January the FS, is doing a pick six.

 

In more cases than not, in the normal inclimate weather of playoff time, the bigger and stronger team in the trenches prevails

[a06cc]

I posted in another thread. The guys we have now only 2 fit a true power scheme.

[oldunclemark]

The god thing is..you can draft O-linemen and get good ones after the first round

[oldunclemark]

That's the 'good' thing, too

[bsteves]

As I see threads about getting this RB or that RB for next year, I am of the belief that a great RB, would be a waste on this team. (As it is)

Thank You.

[ColtsRule815]

Well said Deano1818, I've said for year now that Emmitt Smith was highly overrated as a running back.  It was his MONSTROUS OL that did his work for him.  Wasn't the average weight of that OL 350 lbs or so? Anybody could have put up HOF numbers behind that line.  

[akcolt]

We can't even find a C which shouldn't be so difficult when we do get one that grades out well we sit him The Oine problem is very frustrating

[NewColtsFan]

Well said Deano1818, I've said for year now that Emmitt Smith was highly overrated as a running back.  It was his MONSTROUS OL that did his work for him.  Wasn't the average weight of that OL 350 lbs or so? Anybody could have put up HOF numbers behind that line.  

 

Emmitt Smith was over-rated?

 

Anybody could have put up HOF numbers behind that line?

 

Oh, Dear God, it's going to be long off-season....  

[pacolts56]

Emmitt Smith was over-rated?

 

Anybody could have put up HOF numbers behind that line?

 

Oh, Dear God, it's going to be long off-season....  

Uhhhh yeah....this whole "any RB can be a Hall of Famer behind _______'s O-line" line of thinking is getting completely carried away.

 

I realize our O-line needs work, but to read some of these posts.....you'd think we could find our next RB sleeping in a Maytag box under a freeway overpass, provided the O-line is solid.

 

Queue the "homeless bum sleeping in a Maytag box is better than TRich" wisecracks in 3....2....1....

[akcolt]

Emmitt Smith was over-rated?

 

Anybody could have put up HOF numbers behind that line?

 

Oh, Dear God, it's going to be long off-season....  

nothing surprises me on here anymore I'd beat he's never seen Emmitt play nor could he name a single lineman

[Dark Superman]

The god thing is..you can draft O-linemen and get good ones after the first round

Same with every other position.

[Deano1818]

How dare anyone have an opinion on a player on a forum of opinions !!!!

Maybe a better way to make this point is on a general level, as to not offend a players fan,

A "good" RB can become "great" when they have an outstanding offensive line

A mediocre RB can become good with an outstanding offensive line

A "maytag guy" probably needs to stay on the street

A great OL can help a good QB become great, and a few of the great ones become HOF

An outstanding offensive line is USUALLY a common component of a team that wins in the playoffs

The HOF RBs USUALLY had outstanding offensive lines

The only exception in my recollection is Walter Payton, who had a bad OL at the beginning of his career

We can build a strong running attack with a good player at RB, with a great OL, a team that can win in January

That's the point trying to be shared

[Coltsman1788]

It's true that we need to augment the offensive line as championships are won in the trenches. The thing is...Grigson has known this for quite sometime and has made moves to address. Frankly they haven't been the best moves. Injuries and under performance have been the predominate theme. With Grig's offensive lineman background I expected more. My confidence is dwindling in this GM's ability to put a dominant OLine together. It's becoming an annual problem and offseason need along with "stopping the run". We will all likely still be singing the same song next offseason...unfortunately.

[Deano1818]

It's true that we need to augment the offensive line as championships are won in the trenches. The thing is...Grigson has known this for quite sometime and has made moves to address. Frankly they haven't been the best moves. Injuries and under performance have been the predominate theme. With Grig's offensive lineman background I expected more. My confidence is dwindling in this GM's ability to put a dominant OLine together. It's becoming an annual problem and offseason need along with "stopping the run". We will all likely still be singing the same song next offseason...unfortunately.

I do believe that we are starting to get there

I think our left side including center (Holmes) need to be left alone, and let them get time together

They should get better

I think with the contract situation, with our R OT, we are stuck there for next year

I do believe that we can make a big step as a team with a big, strong right guard

I don't want a rookie. There are a few proven OGs in FA, I would pay the money

I don't want a rookie that may not work out, or will need 1-2 years to get better

I want a known "mauler"........ It's a single key piece to this team, taking a shot at the SB

I would however draft another RT to develop

[Coltsman1788]

I do believe that we are starting to get there

I think our left side including center (Holmes) need to be left alone, and let them get time together

They should get better

I think with the contract situation, with our R OT, we are stuck there for next year

I do believe that we can make a big step as a team with a big, strong right guard

I don't want a rookie. There are a few proven OGs in FA, I would pay the money

I don't want a rookie that may not work out, or will need 1-2 years to get better

I want a known "mauler"........ It's a single key piece to this team, taking a shot at the SB

I would however draft another RT to develop

I agree that we need a mauler at RG and that we need a vet who is a known quantity as a run blocker and not some rookie project there. Who is out there that you would like to see the Colts pick up? We simply have to get stronger at the interior line positions in my opinion. I'm probably not as confident about our center position as you are though.

[Gavin]

How dare anyone have an opinion on a player on a forum of opinions !!!!

Maybe a better way to make this point is on a general level, as to not offend a players fan,

A "good" RB can become "great" when they have an outstanding offensive line

A mediocre RB can become good with an outstanding offensive line

A "maytag guy" probably needs to stay on the street

A great OL can help a good QB become great, and a few of the great ones become HOF

An outstanding offensive line is USUALLY a common component of a team that wins in the playoffs

The HOF RBs USUALLY had outstanding offensive lines

The only exception in my recollection is Walter Payton, who had a bad OL at the beginning of his career

We can build a strong running attack with a good player at RB, with a great OL, a team that can win in January

That's the point trying to be shared

Barry Sanders didn't have a very good O Line as well...Still...I agree with the point

[Coltsman1788]

Barry Sanders didn't have a very good O Line as well...Still...I agree with the point

And how many championships did his team win? Lol

[Gavin]

And how many championships did he win? Lol

;) Still was a hell of a lot of fun watching him make opposing defenses look stupid on a regular basis

[Coltsman1788]

;) Still was a hell of a lot of fun watching him make opposing defenses look stupid on a regular basis

No doubt! He was incredibly gifted as a runner. He made it happen! Lol

[Deano1818]

Barry Sanders didn't have a very good O Line as well...Still...I agree with the point

He was an exception the the usual rule

He normally was hit, 2 yards behind the line

Those teams when Barry was there had no true talent in most phases of their game

Their defense gave up EVERY touchdown the guy scored

Ok..... I will cede the point..... If Barry Sanders would come back and play, and had a scientific breakthrough

Of restoring youth....... We should go with "maytag" guys on the OL

[pacolts56]

The "maytag" comment is ridiculous , as he only said overrated ... (Are you Emmit's butler on a Colts board?)

How dare anyone have an opinion on a player on a forum of opinions !!!!

LOL....no, I'm no fan of Emmitt or the Cowpies.

That "maytag" wisecrack was aimed at Forum members that argue for the Colts to NEVER EVER draft a RB in the first round....with no regard whatsoever to the actual available player's talent.

IMO that is a badly flawed, needs-based method of drafting. That was the point I was making.

I like a late-round bargain as much as the next guy, but the philosophy of writing off RB entirely as a position drafted in the first round...along with RT....and OG....and Center, means that you better be DAMN good at identifying talent at those positions in lower rounds and then developing it. Or else prepare yourself for a crummy rushing attack.

But the RB part has now been taken to the point where some posters don't want us drafting a RB in ANY round!! UDFAs they say is the way to go...and it's nonnegotiable.

Again...that is a needs-based positional draft approach and IMO a terrible draft strategy. And I don't think its Grigson's strategy.

But a lot of this is driven by the Trent Richardson experience.

The irony of which is that had we drafted 3-down RB LeVeon Bell in the 1st round instead of Bjorn Werner...we wouldn't have had to trade for who??

Trent Richardson.

And even if someone wants to make the argument that Bell wouldn't have done anything at all behind our O-line, I'd rather have Bell to build our rushing attack around than what we've gotten from Werner at OLB.

But summing up Emmitt Smith....

Jimmy Johnson was very good at talent evaluation and my opinion is that Smith was an excellent RB, running the ball behind an excellent O-line and FB, in an offense with an excellent passing game.

That how teams win 3 Super Bowls in 5 years and produce multiple Hall of Famers.

[Deano1818]

I agree that we need a mauler at RG and that we need a vet who is a known quantity as a run blocker and not some rookie project there. Who is out there that you would like to see the Colts pick up? We simply have to get stronger at the interior line positions in my opinion. I'm probably not as confident about our center position as you are though.

I would consider,

Orlando Franklin

Mike Lupati

As always, there will also be some very good folks released from teams for cap reasons

To me, this is one of the key "needs to fix" areas for us to go to the big game

[Deano1818]

When I hear the maytag guy comment, I can't help but remember the "This old Box" skit from in living color

About a homeless man living in a cardboard box (sort of sad if you have ever been to parts of NY, but crazy funny).

For the younger colts fans, it's worth a youtube......

"and over here is my baffroom". Holds up a big pickle jar.......

But...... Maybe Grigs, should be looking in ALL places for talent... Including Harlem

[pacolts56]

When I hear the maytag guy comment, I can't help but remember the "This old Box" skit from in living color

About a homeless man living in a cardboard box (sort of sad if you have ever been to parts of NY, but crazy funny).

For the younger colts fans, it's worth a youtube......

"and over here is my baffroom". Holds up a big pickle jar.......

But...... Maybe Grigs, should be looking in ALL places for talent... Including Harlem

That was a funny show.

Sometimes, no...a lot of times I go way over the top here with very non-PC emphasis in my comments.

None of which is meant to offend anyone...and sometimes I'm dead wrong and make a jack#&% out of myself.

I just see the Forum as a "corner bar" where this football stuff can all be argued over and then laughed off over a beer. So let the opinions fly!

[Deano1818]

Pa... I think you are right on the reasoning by not drafting a RB being driven (the word I am thinking is effected)

By the Richardson trade

However, there seems to be a push to not draft a RB early from the NFL.

There seems to be some success in bringing in a 2-6 round RB and having them produce

A few of the top their RBs drafted have come in and laid eggs......

(Richardson is the lead dog in this group)

[Deano1818]

That was a funny show.

Sometimes, no...a lot of times I go way over the top here with very non-PC emphasis in my comments.

None of which is meant to offend anyone...and sometimes I'm dead wrong and make a jack#&% out of myself.

I just see the Forum as a "corner bar" where this football stuff can all be argued over and then laughed off over a beer. So let the opinions fly!

I cried myself to sleep last night when I read your post.....

It's all good

[pacolts56]

Pa... I think you are right on the reasoning by not drafting a RB being driven (the word I am thinking is effected)

By the Richardson trade

However, there seems to be a push to not draft a RB early from the NFL.

There seems to be some success in bringing in a 2-6 round RB and having them produce

A few of the top their RBs drafted have come in and laid eggs......

(Richardson is the lead dog in this group)

No argument there....

My only issue all along has been that we shouldn't categorically rule out a starting position in any round, that's all. If the player's talent/value is compelling....grab him.

The Bell/Werner/Richardson illustration is especially painful.

[Deano1818]

I have to say that I do respect Grigs at least TRYING to improve the team

He has taken some poor swings, (I do think he is learning from his mistakes at least I hope)

We expect the brass to be perfect. When we all started our own careers I am SURE that we laid some eggs

We probably all had some painful work lessons, but we probably got better as time when on

Hopefully the good choices from Grigs will start to increase while the poor choices decrease

I applaud his willingness to improve this team

I am not sure if everyone feels the way I do or not, but

I got to the point with Polians smugness that it drove me batty.

I believe he said, those that listen to the fans will end up sitting with them.....

We were so close for so many years with Polians, but we never seemed to take the needed big step

To fill a blatant hole

I would have traded a few down years, to get more SB rings.... That we should have had in the Manning years

[pacolts56]

I have to say that I do respect Grigs at least TRYING to improve the team

He has taken some poor swings, (I do think he is learning from his mistakes at least I hope)

We expect the brass to be perfect. When we all started our own careers I am SURE that we laid some eggs

We probably all had some painful work lessons, but we probably got better as time when on

Hopefully the good choices from Grigs will start to increase while the poor choices decrease

I applaud his willingness to improve this team

I am not sure if everyone feels the way I do or not, but

I got to the point with Polians smugness that it drove me batty.

I believe he said, those that listen to the fans will end up sitting with them.....

We were so close for so many years with Polians, but we never seemed to take the needed big step

To fill a blatant hole

I would have traded a few down years, to get more SB rings.... That we should have had in the Manning years

Agreed....no NFL GM will hit a home run with every move.

 

Polian had a ton of success at just about everything but O-line and DT....which, drafting beyond the 22nd pick like we always did was gonna be even more of a crap shoot. And his unwillingness to play very much in free agency was a double-edged sword. We didn't spend crazy $$$ on free agents but we sure coulda used some O-line help after Glenn and Scott left.

 

I also believe that philosophically there was simply too much emphasis on Peyton and the passing attack taking SO much of the offensive load to the point that playoff caliber teams with solid run games and solid defenses wound up being terrible matchups for us....hence the number of playoff exits.

 

I commend the new regime for its goal of having more balance available and intending to use it....but we clearly have several OL/RB pieces that either need to take a big step forward in development or to upgrade or build depth at. 

 

Hopefully we upgrade talent or production at the interior trench positions....I really don't feel like seeing us lack that for Luck's career too. Sooner or later those hits he takes are gonna begin to take their toll.

[achcolts]

i really want grigson to solely focus on improving nothing more than the O and D lines, and JUST safety.  I hope the 4 losses to new england shows grigson that these were all lost from the trenches

[Luck_Is_Skilled]

I may be in the minority here but I believe that a healthy line up of AC, Mewhort, Holmes, Thornton and Gosder is very promising. We do however need to focus on Gosder's replacement. Maybe thats Ulrich John, maybe its not but I like what we have starting for us if everyone is healthy and has a full offseason to build chemistry.

[Deano1818]

I may be in the minority here but I believe that a healthy line up of AC, Mewhort, Holmes, Thornton and Gosder is very promising. We do however need to focus on Gosder's replacement. Maybe thats Ulrich John, maybe its not but I like what we have starting for us if everyone is healthy and has a full offseason to build chemistry.

The only thing I would disagree with is the RG position

I don't believe that needed pile driving monster so needed is on this team today

[ColtStronger]

I've said this since day 1 from their rebuilding process.  After a team gets their franchise QB, the next thing on the list is getting a dominating OL.  Colts seem to not want to follow a proven winning formula tho.  This is the last thing they've wanted to work on.  Everybody is worried about getting weapons for Luck, but forget he is so good, he makes the receivers and other players better.  They would be a totally different team if the OL was always pushing the LOS and protecting Luck.  People want to say Trent sucks but he needs a line like that to showcase his abilities.  Look at his line at Alabama.  People try to say Boom or Bradshaw can do just fine with the same line, but fail to realize they are different types of backs.  Our offense would be hands down the best in the NFL if they OL was dominating.  I believe potentially one of the best in history, if they're would be 3 pro bowlers shredding people up front. 

 

Another thing like the OP mentioned, it would also help out the defense tremendously because they would be on the field less.  Case in point, the beginning of this season.  We were a TOP powerhouse, and our defense got off the field on 3rd downs.  I'm excited to see more of that, and we would be if we had a better OL, keeping the defense fresh.  Another point that the OP said, the defense gets tired as the games continues.  Adding to the strength that the Colts are a second half team.  I believe they would be putting up 35 pts on average every game if they could get the line to where it should be.

[CanuckColt]

You cannot have big road-grader linemen for the run game and ask them to be good in pass-protection too.

You need to pick one or the other.  And since we have Andrew throwing the ball, we need to protect him, so our linemen will always be good pass-protectors FIRST. So how do we get a running game?  We need exceptional running backs. And where do you find exceptional running backs? In the 1st couple of rounds of the draft. So if you want a good running game next year, you draft RB9s) in the very early rounds.

[joeb]

I am pretty high on the kid from Wisconsin. I  believe his name is Melvin Gordon.  He's not flashy like Marshall Faulk but he is a work horse.   We possibly may be able to get the guy from Nebraska in the second rd. if we don't go that way. I feel we have to get a RB in the first 2 picks otherwise free agency.

[ColtsRule815]

nothing surprises me on here anymore I'd beat he's never seen Emmitt play nor could he name a single lineman

Nate Newton.  And it's I Bet he's never seen Emmitt play, nor could he name a single lineman.  

[Deano1818]

You cannot have big road-grader linemen for the run game and ask them to be good in pass-protection too.

You need to pick one or the other.  And since we have Andrew throwing the ball, we need to protect him, so our linemen will always be good pass-protectors FIRST. So how do we get a running game?  We need exceptional running backs. And where do you find exceptional running backs? In the 1st couple of rounds of the draft. So if you want a good running game next year, you draft RB9s) in the very early rounds.

If you were talking about the RT spot, I would tend to agree

The OTs see the best pass rushers for every team

But.......

You aim to get a guy who is ok at pass rushing but a mauler in the Run game at RG

You would like to have both skills be at top level, but their are fewer choices