NFL zeroed in on locker room attendant

[Bad Morty]

if they would have been instructed to lose games on purpose, irsay wouldn't have fired everyone then blown up the roster in the off season. Also they wouldn't have won two of the final four. Your argument doesn't hold up. Its flat if you will

 

They lost what - their first 12 games? They were pretty safely in the driver's seat for the #1 pick before they won a game, so spare me with that. That was all about "ok - we can afford to win one now to make this look better". You all think "tanking" means instructing the players to lose games. It goes well beyond that. Teams that are doing everything they can to win will make mid season acquistions and adjustments to the roster. There are always guys available. It's unprecedented in the history of the league for a team to be a consistent winner for 3 years, then completely tank to the very bottom of the league 1 year before returning to winning the next 3 years. It's laughable that people want to use data on fumbling to make a dubious connection to deflated balls, yet this anomaly which just happened to coincide with a franchise QB being available in the draft - that's just pure coincidence. Your team is dirty...all teams are dirty. It's professional sports...there's too much money at stake NOT to be willing to get dirty.

[bababooey]

no, not many players still in the league, and 5 are still on the colts including two kickers

No point in either arguing anymore. We have Luck. They have an ongoing investigation into yet another cheating scandal. Rook just made an account to come in here looking to start trouble on a Colts forum. Complete joke.

[GoPats]

Just a question. If this does come out that the Patriots doctored the football what would it change your view of them? Would you still be a fan or the team and players involved? Does Belicheck or Brady have to been intimately connected to the wrong doing or is simply the overwhelming circumstancial evidence enough? We all know there is 0% chance Brady or anyone admits to wrong doing so basically its going to be trusting his and Bill's word on this situation. I would hate to be put in that situation. I know when we had the brawl at the palace that outside of Reggie Miller I totally wrote that team off. Didn't buy anymore tickets until they cleaned up the roster etc before I finally went back to games a few years ago. I was ashamed of the behavior and didn't want to support that team and behavior.  I'm not going to spend hard earned money on something I can't stand behind. Not saying that people that all people have to adhere to that...it is entertainment after all...so again I don't think we need to throw these guys behind bars and people are allowed to have a good time and enjoy their games...but I think we are well beyond acting like these guys are stand up sportsmen.

 

Good post, thanks.

 

To answer your question, if the NFL uncovers irrefutable evidence, I honestly don't know how I personally would react. Intellectually speaking of course I would "realize" that as a fan I'd been duped. Emotionally, which is where our sports fan minds mostly reside, it would be tough.

 

One thing I haven't really posted about (mainly because of the reaction I know it would get) was a Sports Science thing on deflated balls. They found that a ball at 10.5 PSI vs 12.5 PSI has an increased "grip force" of 1.5%. And the deflated ball actually traveled with less velocity when launched from a jugs machine. 

 

That's what's annoying as a Patriots fan, if this is all true. They risked their reputations and their entire careers for a 1.5% advantage? If so that's just dumb, especially given the scrutiny the team already faces in the eyes of many NFL fans. 

[jvan1973]

They lost what - their first 12 games? They were pretty safely in the driver's seat for the #1 pick before they won a game, so spare me with that. That was all about "ok - we can afford to win one now to make this look better". You all think "tanking" means instructing the players to lose games. It goes well beyond that. Teams that are doing everything they can to win will make mid season acquistions and adjustments to the roster. There are always guys available. It's unprecedented in the history of the league for a team to be a consistent winner for 3 years, then completely tank to the very bottom of the league 1 year before returning to winning the next 3 years. It's laughable that people want to use data on fumbling to make a dubious connection to deflated balls, yet this anomaly which just happened to coincide with a franchise QB being available in the draft - that's just pure coincidence. Your team is dirty...all teams are dirty. It's professional sports...there's too much money at stake NOT to be willing to get dirty.

actually, they weren't firmly in the drivers seat. They needed a tie breaker to decide the number one pick in the draft.

[OffensivelyPC]

It's an outlandish idea and no Kravitz does not believe that the Colts tanked. As far as Florio goes, I do not know what he has said on the subject, the fact that he is a lawyer is enough for me to take whatever he says with a grain of salt. The Colts team had such a drop off because they did not have a back up QB, that was Polian's fault. One that ultimately cost Polian his job. But you keep living in your deluded world and keep missing the contradictory and ironic nature of your posts.

He sees it, but like any troll, he ignores it and continues to jab.  He's the laughing clown in the putt putt course in Happy Gilmore.

[GoPats]

So no don't throw it all away but stop being a Homer and have some self respect and admit the evidence at hand.

 

 

That's just it though man... what evidence do we have? All we know is that the balls were under-inflated. Nothing you or I have heard about this case is confirmed by any official source. Just media "leaks" an unnamed sources. And as you know those often turn out to be wrong, or at least partially inaccurate. For example I'm hearing now that the 11 balls were not actually 2 PSI lower, more in the range of one PSI. But we don't really know, right? 

 

If this were a court case it wouldn't get past a grand jury at this point. 

 

I'm not saying they did it or didn't do it... I'm saying that if you want to point to evidence, there's nothing there. Not yet anyway. 

[GoPats]

You do have a point GoPat.  i would ask though... based on your posts here you seem to be a person with morals and a sense of right and wrong, so at what point do you need to throw up your hands and say, that's it I'm not going to support this team anymore until x, y and z happens?

 

If there was rock-solid evidence then yes, sure. I would want Kraft to fire BB and would have a hard time rooting for the Patriots again until they cleaned house. 

 

I was a big Lance Armstrong fan... of course not anymore though. I would like to think I wouldn't be unreasonable if the Pats were clearly in the wrong here. 

[Narcosys]

That's just it though man... what evidence do we have? All we know is that the balls were under-inflated. Nothing you or I have heard about this case is confirmed by any official source. Just media "leaks" an unnamed sources. And as you know those often turn out to be wrong, or at least partially inaccurate. For example I'm hearing now that the 11 balls were not actually 2 PSI lower, more in the range of one PSI. But we don't really know, right?

If this were a court case it wouldn't get past a grand jury at this point.

I'm not saying they did it or didn't do it... I'm saying that if you want to point to evidence, there's nothing there. Not yet anyway.

We have that they were underinflated and the colts weren't. We have that they had good balls after the half. Which we can correctly assume they were set to 12.5 because brady said that's what he uses. Those balls checked out fine after the game. If 12 basks deflated in a temp change from room two to 40+ degrees, then why did they not deflate from room temp to below 40? Sorry, the logic just does not add up. If you want to go with the weather theory, that's fine. But now you're going to have to use that same math to prove why the others didn't.

Then you have a back boy who broke the rules by not taking the ball straight to the field. If toy had to go so bad, why not go before you picked up the balls. If it wasn't that bad that you needed to go, then why couldn't you wait the 5 minutes it takes to get from the locker room to the field. Again, there's no proof, but you can't say it isn't shady as heck. That's why I find it ridiculous pats fans are finding every excuse under the sun because you have to know it's shady.

[OffensivelyPC]

That's just it though man... what evidence do we have? All we know is that the balls were under-inflated. Nothing you or I have heard about this case is confirmed by any official source. Just media "leaks" an unnamed sources. And as you know those often turn out to be wrong, or at least partially inaccurate. For example I'm hearing now that the 11 balls were not actually 2 PSI lower, more in the range of one PSI. But we don't really know, right? 

 

If this were a court case it wouldn't get past a grand jury at this point.

 

I'm not saying they did it or didn't do it... I'm saying that if you want to point to evidence, there's nothing there. Not yet anyway. 

That's because the investigation isn't complete yet.  You don't bring in a grand jury until you have enough evidence to at least satisfy the main elements of whatever crime it is - which is usually only murder when we're talking grand juries.  For all other offenses, the prosecution typically can circumvent the grand jury and go straight to indictment.  Not that you were looking on a lesson in criminal procedure or anything lol

[Corndog]

Co-Commissioner Kraft found his fall man. I'm sure he'll get a nice severance package. 

As he should, the guy was taking orders from his employers and probably won't be able to get another job in that field again.  Hopefully for him, it's just a part time gig.  

[bababooey]

That's just it though man... what evidence do we have? All we know is that the balls were under-inflated. Nothing you or I have heard about this case is confirmed by any official source. Just media "leaks" an unnamed sources. And as you know those often turn out to be wrong, or at least partially inaccurate. For example I'm hearing now that the 11 balls were not actually 2 PSI lower, more in the range of one PSI. But we don't really know, right? 

 

If this were a court case it wouldn't get past a grand jury at this point. 

 

I'm not saying they did it or didn't do it... I'm saying that if you want to point to evidence, there's nothing there. Not yet anyway. 

11 deflated footballs.

 

This isn't a court case but a low standard of proof applies.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/27/low-standard-of-proof-applies-to-deflategate/

 

Per a league source, the “preponderance of the evidence” standard applies in cases involving allegations of conduct that undermines the integrity of the game.  That comes from the league policy manual given to every team.

 

It’s the standard that applies in civil litigation, a “more-likely-than-not” assessment of the proof that equates to, essentially, a 51-49 test far less stringent than proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which applies in criminal cases.

 

Although Patriots owner Robert Kraft has insisted on “hard facts as opposed to circumstantial leaked evidence to drive the conclusion of this investigation,” circumstantial evidence could be sufficient to overcome any legal standard — especially a low one like “preponderance of the evidence.”

Depending on the full extent of the evidence obtained during the ongoing investigation, that could be bad news for the Patriots.

[GoPats]

We have that they were underinflated and the colts weren't. We have that they had good balls after the half. Which we can correctly assume they were set to 12.5 because brady said that's what he uses. Those balls checked out fine after the game. If 12 basks deflated in a temp change from room two to 40+ degrees, then why did they not deflate from room temp to below 40? Sorry, the logic just does not add up. If you want to go with the weather theory, that's fine. But now you're going to have to use that same math to prove why the others didn't.

Then you have a back boy who broke the rules by not taking the ball straight to the field. If toy had to go so bad, why not go before you picked up the balls. If it wasn't that bad that you needed to go, then why couldn't you wait the 5 minutes it takes to get from the locker room to the field. Again, there's no proof, but you can't say it isn't shady as heck. That's why I find it ridiculous pats fans are finding every excuse under the sun because you have to know it's shady.

 

That's fine, like I said yesterday, if you want to take the info that's out there and make a judgment call, that's cool. Your right to do so. But these aren't facts, man. We don't even know (from the NFL) what PSI the balls were at pre-game as opposed to when they were supposedly measured at halftime. 

 

Let me ask this. The Colts were often accused of pumping in crowd noise at the old stadium, right? Then one game there was this weird audio "anomaly" that was supposedly caused by CBS. Even though most NFL fans outside of Indy believed it was true, you didn't, right? Because there were no facts. Just speculation, conjecture, and accusations.

Same thing here in my book. Show me the evidence and I'll burn my hoodie. 

[GoPats]

That's because the investigation isn't complete yet. 

 

Tell that to the people who are ready to burn Belichick at the stake, figuratively speaking...  ;)

[GoPats]

 

Depending on the full extent of the evidence obtained during the ongoing investigation, that could be bad news for the Patriots.

 

It could very well turn out that way. But I'm sure you can't blame me, as a Pats fan, for wanting to wait to see if that actually happens. Don't pretend you wouldn't do the same exact thing in my shoes. 

[bababooey]

That's fine, like I said yesterday, if you want to take the info that's out there and make a judgment call, that's cool. Your right to do so. But these aren't facts, man. We don't even know (from the NFL) what PSI the balls were at pre-game as opposed to when they were supposedly measured at halftime. 

 

Let me ask this. The Colts were often accused of pumping in crowd noise at the old stadium, right? Then one game there was this weird audio "anomaly" that was supposedly caused by CBS. Even though most NFL fans outside of Indy believed it was true, you didn't, right? Because there were no facts. Just speculation, conjecture, and accusations.

Same thing here in my book. Show me the evidence and I'll burn my hoodie. 

We were accused only once by Kraft. The same guy who owns part of the company that was to blame for the audio glitch. The same guy who complains about everything to his bff Roger as shown by his filed tampering charge against the Jets for Woody saying he wanted to have one of his better ex players back. The Ravens brought it up again this year and it was quickly dismissed by our coach and we beat them cleanly. There is an easier logical explanation to the whole pumping in crowd noise, as it was caused by the audio glitch. However, 11 balls for the pats vs no balls for the colts as well as a team who has been caught cheating before....I wouldn't want you to burn the hoodie but at least sew the sleeves back on so you at least look presentable lol

[Coffeedrinker]

If there was rock-solid evidence then yes, sure. I would want Kraft to fire BB and would have a hard time rooting for the Patriots again until they cleaned house. 

 

I was a big Lance Armstrong fan... of course not anymore though. I would like to think I wouldn't be unreasonable if the Pats were clearly in the wrong here. 

Fair enough.  I was mainly just curious, I quit supporting the Pacers for a while because they just became a team of thugs and I didn't want to be associated with that. 

[OffensivelyPC]

Tell that to the people who are ready to burn Belichick at the stake, figuratively speaking...  ;)

 

Burn em anyway!!!

[Narcosys]

That's fine, like I said yesterday, if you want to take the info that's out there and make a judgment call, that's cool. Your right to do so. But these aren't facts, man. We don't even know (from the NFL) what PSI the balls were at pre-game as opposed to when they were supposedly measured at halftime.

Let me ask this. The Colts were often accused of pumping in crowd noise at the old stadium, right? Then one game there was this weird audio "anomaly" that was supposedly caused by CBS. Even though most NFL fans outside of Indy believed it was true, you didn't, right? Because there were no facts. Just speculation, conjecture, and accusations.

Same thing here in my book. Show me the evidence and I'll burn my hoodie.

But we do know, by Tom's own words, 12.5. If they weren't then why did he lie? They've made their statements and there is too much contradictory information out there for any excuse they make. It's too late to go back now because they will be seen as liars. Even the weather argument doesn't make sense.

They were accused once and after the pats lost. Supposedly the skip occurred on cbs only. As far as what was heard in the stadium, I haven't searched for any witnesses that were interviewed about what happened or in stadium video. We're there named witnesses and was it fans from both sides? If there's evidence of in stadium then ya, they did it. I wasnt in the US when this occurred. But these situations don't compare. There is evidence that contradicts the story that's being put out. That and scientific evidence that you use to support the first half issues that completely contradicts the second half.

[bababooey]

Fair enough.  I was mainly just curious, I quit supporting the Pacers for a while because they just became a team of thugs and I didn't want to be associated with that. 

It's funny you mention that. Colin Cowherd's book has a chapter about this. The Pacers are a top team in the NBA yet they don't sell out their games or playoff games. He claims it is because Indianapolis is the most conservative town in America and that the Malice at the Palace left such a dark stain on the team that the fanbase never recovered from it.

[AndreRison]

They lost what - their first 12 games? They were pretty safely in the driver's seat for the #1 pick before they won a game, so spare me with that. That was all about "ok - we can afford to win one now to make this look better". You all think "tanking" means instructing the players to lose games. It goes well beyond that. Teams that are doing everything they can to win will make mid season acquistions and adjustments to the roster. There are always guys available. It's unprecedented in the history of the league for a team to be a consistent winner for 3 years, then completely tank to the very bottom of the league 1 year before returning to winning the next 3 years. It's laughable that people want to use data on fumbling to make a dubious connection to deflated balls, yet this anomaly which just happened to coincide with a franchise QB being available in the draft - that's just pure coincidence. Your team is dirty...all teams are dirty. It's professional sports...there's too much money at stake NOT to be willing to get dirty.

This is why most football fans can't stand Patriot fans. You are outraged over a convoluted story you made up, so you can feign indignation over it. You then use this to prop up a cheating scandal as some kinda misunderstanding of the rules. You claim your fake story about the Colts is so much worse than what your team did, so everybody gets defensive and takes there eye off the prize. There's a reason Kraft has to go insane on national tv, and Jim Irsay didn't get asked question one about tanking. The latter never happened.

[dw49]

This is why most football fans can't stand Patriot fans. You are outraged over a convoluted story you made up, so you can feign indignation over it. You then use this to prop up a cheating scandal as some kinda misunderstanding of the rules. You claim your fake story about the Colts is so much worse than what your team did, so everybody gets defensive and takes there eye off the prize. There's a reason Kraft has to go insane on national tv, and Jim Irsay didn't get asked question one about tanking. The latter never happened.

 

 

So stupid . The Colts would have never , ever in a million years scored that last second TD to beat Houston if they were tanking the season. If you look at that Colt roster it was by far the NFL's worst. No QB and a bunch of players that were pretty much "cooked." This was a result of Polian turning things over to his boy and that;s why he was fired. Funny thing is that Tampa Bay literally no doubt tanked that lat game vs NO and nobody really cared . I've included one of the countless links on this issue. I used this one as it covers the real way you tank. That being pulling your better players for bench guys. THE COLTS NEVER DID THIS. How the * do you otherwise tank ? You can't even dream of telling players to tank. That would be in the open in hours , yet alone days. Players are playing for contracts and jobs .. you can't possibly even dream of doing that. The play calling was never suspicious. We didn't keep running the ball in passing situations. All these * keep coming up with if you put their backs to the wall is Painter should have been replaced by the terrible Russian QB that wasn't even with the team ingraining camp. Anyway below is how you tank ... enjoy it NE fans.....

 

 

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/bucs/bucs-say-they-didnt-tank-for-no-1-overall-pick/2211704

[bababooey]

So stupid . The Colts would have never , ever in a million years scored that last second TD to beat Houston if they were tanking the season. If you look at that Colt roster it was by far the NFL's worst. No QB and a bunch of players that were pretty much "cooked." This was a result of Polian turning things over to his boy and that;s why he was fired. Funny thing is that Tampa Bay literally no doubt tanked that lat game vs NO and nobody really cared . I've included one of the countless links on this issue. I used this one as it covers the real way you tank. That being pulling your better players for bench guys. THE COLTS NEVER DID THIS. How the * do you otherwise tank ? You can't even dream of telling players to tank. That would be in the open in hours , yet alone days. Players are playing for contracts and jobs .. you can't possibly even dream of doing that. The play calling was never suspicious. We didn't keep running the ball in passing situations. All these * keep coming up with if you put their backs to the wall is Painter should have been replaced by the terrible Russian QB that wasn't even with the team ingraining camp. Anyway below is how you tank ... enjoy it NE fans.....

 

 

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/bucs/bucs-say-they-didnt-tank-for-no-1-overall-pick/2211704

Let's also not forget we actually scored a TD in the 4th quarter of our last game vs Jacksonville after winning the two prior games but lost by less than a score.

 

Congrats to the Pats fans for actually getting us off track for a couple hours to debunk their imaginary cheating theories.

 

Back to Deflategate.

[GoPats]

We were accused only once by Kraft. The same guy who owns part of the company that was to blame for the audio glitch. The same guy who complains about everything to his bff Roger as shown by his filed tampering charge against the Jets for Woody saying he wanted to have one of his better ex players back. The Ravens brought it up again this year and it was quickly dismissed by our coach and we beat them cleanly. There is an easier logical explanation to the whole pumping in crowd noise, as it was caused by the audio glitch. However, 11 balls for the pats vs no balls for the colts as well as a team who has been caught cheating before....I wouldn't want you to burn the hoodie but at least sew the sleeves back on so you at least look presentable lol

 

Ah it's OK, Mrs. GoPats is excellent with a sewing machine.  ;)

 

Just FTR, it wasn't "only the Patriots." (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/colts/2007-11-05-audio_N.htm)

 

Other teams made the same claim. And I'm not pulling a strawman here, I'm just trying to illustrate how hard it sucks when you have accusations flying all over the place. And then what happens is that fiction, over time, becomes truth. I still see people reference the crowd noise thing. People still bring up the Patriots taping walk-throughs (never substantiated). 

 

Yes there is Spygate. I understand. This is akin to someone on probation being accused of committing another crime. But BB has been pretty up-front about what happened in 2007. ("The guy is giving signals in front of 80,000 people" was more or less what he said). He never denied doing it, so this deflated ball deal is a 180 from that. 

 

I realize that the Patriots are mostly detested throughout the NFL watching universe. I have no problem rooting for "the bad guys" unless something actually surfaces through the NFL's investigation. If they did deliberately gain an advantage, the people they hurt the most aren't their opponents, it's their fans. But we're not there and, quite frankly, this whole thing has turned into a massive witch hunt. Never better exemplified by a piece of video showing a ball guy probably going to take a leak (and something the Patriots handed over as part of the investigation... not a secret video clip or anything). 

[dynasty13]

Let's also not forget we actually scored a TD in the 4th quarter of our last game vs Jacksonville after winning the two prior games but lost by less than a score.

 

Congrats to the Pats fans for actually getting us off track for a couple hours to debunk their imaginary cheating theories.

 

Back to Deflategate.

 

Yes...back to deflategate. 

 

Any new news? 

[bababooey]

I realize that the Patriots are mostly detested throughout the NFL watching universe. I have no problem rooting for "the bad guys" unless something actually surfaces through the NFL's investigation. If they did deliberately gain an advantage, the people they hurt the most aren't their opponents, it's their fans. But we're not there and, quite frankly, this whole thing has turned into a massive witch hunt. Never better exemplified by a piece of video showing a ball guy probably going to take a leak (and something the Patriots handed over as part of the investigation... not a secret video clip or anything). 

What about their opponent's fans? The opponents still make millions of dollars but the fans get to watch their team lose while the cheating team is rewarded.

[dynasty13]

What about their opponent's fans? The opponents still make millions of dollars but the fans get to watch their team lose while the cheating team is rewarded.

 

But here you are again, talking like the investigation is over and that you are already 'right'. This is the problem, and that's what GoPats is saying about it sucks for the fans who have to defend their team against those that have already made up their mind about something that hasn't been proven.

[braveheartcolt]

Well, we certainly tanked in this years AFCCG......

[ColtsBlueFL]

If there was rock-solid evidence then yes, sure. I would want Kraft to fire BB and would have a hard time rooting for the Patriots again until they cleaned house. 

 

I was a big Lance Armstrong fan... of course not anymore though. I would like to think I wouldn't be unreasonable if the Pats were clearly in the wrong here. 

I was a huge Lance Armstrong supporter, notably after cancer recovery.   Sigh....

[Superman]

But here you are again, talking like the investigation is over and that you are already 'right'. This is the problem, and that's what GoPats is saying about it sucks for the fans who have to defend their team against those that have already made up their mind about something that hasn't been proven.

 

Not really what's happening here, from my perspective.

 

What I see is a lot of evidence that something untoward happened, and Pats fans being entirely dismissive of that evidence, and condescending to anyone who isn't. There's a huge difference between "let's see what they actually come up with," and "you guys are sooo jealous, hahaha." 

[Narcosys]

Ah it's OK, Mrs. GoPats is excellent with a sewing machine. ;)

Just FTR, it wasn't "only the Patriots." (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/colts/2007-11-05-audio_N.htm)

Other teams made the same claim. And I'm not pulling a strawman here, I'm just trying to illustrate how hard it sucks when you have accusations flying all over the place. And then what happens is that fiction, over time, becomes truth. I still see people reference the crowd noise thing. People still bring up the Patriots taping walk-throughs (never substantiated).

Yes there is Spygate. I understand. This is akin to someone on probation being accused of committing another crime. But BB has been pretty up-front about what happened in 2007. ("The guy is giving signals in front of 80,000 people" was more or less what he said). He never denied doing it, so this deflated ball deal is a 180 from that.

I realize that the Patriots are mostly detested throughout the NFL watching universe. I have no problem rooting for "the bad guys" unless something actually surfaces through the NFL's investigation. If they did deliberately gain an advantage, the people they hurt the most aren't their opponents, it's their fans. But we're not there and, quite frankly, this whole thing has turned into a massive witch hunt. Never better exemplified by a piece of video showing a ball guy probably going to take a leak (and something the Patriots handed over as part of the investigation... not a secret video clip or anything).

It's a 180 because bill was right, it's in the public domain. The ball thing is explicitly written in the rules. Plus I don't take them handing over tape during an investigation as anything helping them. They have to, otherwise if you have missing footage it becomes even more suspicious. Then you talk about the ball boy taking a leak. Come on. As stated before, the guy had done it numerous times and knows it's supposed to be taken straight to the field. Either hold it or go before. Why couldn't he wait the 5 min to go after he delivered the balls? It's plausible, but not fully believable.

[GoPats]

I was a huge Lance Armstrong supporter, notably after cancer recovery.   Sigh....

 

Me too. That was awful. Sort of like when I found out Santa Claus wasn't real.

 

I'm not a cyclist but I'm an outdoors guy, and I was crushed when I found out he was blood doping... just crushed. Plus it sucked that the French were right about him, lol... 

[dynasty13]

Not really what's happening here, from my perspective.

 

What I see is a lot of evidence that something untoward happened, and Pats fans being entirely dismissive of that evidence, and condescending to anyone who isn't. There's a huge difference between "let's see what they actually come up with," and "you guys are sooo jealous, hahaha." 

 

I think there's a difference between saying 'its because its the Patriots' and 'you guys are jealous'. Most of the regulars here are saying the former...tune out the noise from those saying the latter.

 

Think of this whole situation like this: remember when Marvin Harrison allegedly shot someone? Oh boy did the anti-Colters pounce! This was at the height of the 'we are the classiest ever' era and people were looking for a reason to knock them off their perch. So they took it and ran. Yet every one at these forums defended the guy like he was a family member who simply was misunderstood. "Nothing's been proven!" people shouted...."I'm waiting for the facts before I decide anything" people said. Which, quite frankly,  IS how it should be. But even when the evidence was building, even when it was proven that Harrison's gun was the one that was fired the shots, those in speed blue ridiculed anyone who dared question it.

 

Is that reaction sounding a bit familiar? 

 

Even a year later when their was another shooting incident and he was connected...another incident...in other words, there was a history of it....people here still defended him like no other. People waited for legitimate proof before making any kind of judgement. The only difference here is that it is your guy, not our guy. The only difference here is we are talking about the 'integrity of the game', instead of...what...a human life? Hmm...

 

Right now, deflate gate is a runaway train...everyone is an expert all of a sudden, everyone is passing speculation off as fact, everyone is using unconfirmed reports to draw their own conclusions and thinking they've made some obvious connection that proves something. The team has already been found guilty, because there is a 'history of it'...yet the investigation itself has gaping holes. Instead of waiting for real facts, real conclusions, letting the investigation run its course, many have already decided that they've been cheated. And there's no coming back from that perception. Even if they are 100% cleared, people won't care....they've already decided. And that sucks.

[pgt_rob]

Maybe if the NFL continues to hold the presses, people will just tired and forget about it and not care.

[GoPats]

It's a 180 because bill was right, it's in the public domain. The ball thing is explicitly written in the rules. Plus I don't take them handing over tape during an investigation as anything helping them. They have to, otherwise if you have missing footage it becomes even more suspicious. Then you talk about the ball boy taking a leak. Come on. As stated before, the guy had done it numerous times and knows it's supposed to be taken straight to the field. Either hold it or go before. Why couldn't he wait the 5 min to go after he delivered the balls? It's plausible, but not fully believable.

 

I'm sure they simply allowed the NFL to have access to their CCTV systems. I work in that field (electronic security) and, with proper IP/port information and a legitimate log-in, and assuming that the system resides on a network, you could view any camera system's archived footage from any computer hooked up to the Internet. 

 

Point is, there's no way to "delete" only an hour or two of video with 99% of these systems. You either scrap the entire hard drive or NVR (a network recording system) or you open the whole thing up. 

 

As far as the ball boy's bathroom habits, I don't know. Prior to 9 days ago, did you have any knowledge of the whole process the NFL goes through with game balls? Would you have said or suggested that it was a huge security thing, and that the guy carrying them out to the field shouldn't stop at the men's room for 90 seconds along the way? 

 

I just think it's surreal... America is tuned in to see whether Timmy the Ball Boy had to stop to pee on his way out to the field. 

[Narcosys]

I'm sure they simply allowed the NFL to have access to their CCTV systems. I work in that field (electronic security) and, with proper IP/port information and a legitimate log-in, and assuming that the system resides on a network, you could view any camera system's archived footage from any computer hooked up to the Internet.

Point is, there's no way to "delete" only an hour or two of video with 99% of these systems. You either scrap the entire hard drive or NVR (a network recording system) or you open the whole thing up.

As far as the ball boy's bathroom habits, I don't know. Prior to 9 days ago, did you have any knowledge of the whole process the NFL goes through with game balls? Would you have said or suggested that it was a huge security thing, and that the guy carrying them out to the field shouldn't stop at the men's room for 90 seconds along the way?

I just think it's surreal... America is tuned in to see whether Timmy the Ball Boy had to stop to pee on his way out to the field.

Exactly, so handing over the video isn't necessarily a credit to their integrity. It's just something that was mandatory and unavoidable.

Is not whether I knew or not. The ball boy knew the rules, and now that we know they are supposed to be delivered immediately to the field, it brings him into question. I mean, this is why they have the rules in place. Take a leak before or after to prevent any scrutiny about tampering.

But it is funny.

[Superman]

I think there's a difference between saying 'its because its the Patriots' and 'you guys are jealous'. Most of the regulars here are saying the former...tune out the noise from those saying the latter.

 

I think this is completely different from the Marvin Harrison situation. I won't even go there, but there was no "this is only because he's a Colt" from Colts fans who defended him. There was certainly no "you guys are just jealous." 

 

And to that point, saying "it's only because this is the Patriots" is entirely dismissive of the fact that it's only the Patriots who have been accused of having non-compliant footballs. You talk about speculation and waiting for "real facts" and whatnot, but that is, again, dismissive of the fact that the Patriots balls weren't compliant, after having been checked by the officials.

 

Not only is the whole "everybody hates the Patriots" thing condescending on its face, it's also condescending to those who don't believe the potential alternatives that have been offered. It's not the weather, it's not the way the balls were conditioned, it's not the room in which they were measured... and you don't have to be the Mona Lisa Vito of the football world to understand that. You don't have to be a CIA interrogator to recognize that there were inconsistencies in Brady's comments.

 

Yes, people have jumped to conclusions. I try not to do that, generally speaking, but the conclusions being reached are more than logical. 1) The footballs were deflated, and footballs don't just lose air pressure for no reason; 2) if environmental conditions were the culprit, the Colts footballs would likely have been deflated also, and they evidently were not; 3) it's very unlikely that any league or club personnel would have tampered with the footballs on a whim. Add all that up, and reaching a conclusion is kind of hard to avoid. And most didn't reach that conclusion until it was reported that 11 of the 12 footballs were significantly non-compliant.

 

I get why that sucks as a Patriots fan, and I don't expect you to burn all your jerseys. But like I said, the whole "this is just because it's the Patriots" angle is really weak. Almost as weak as the "everybody does it" angle. It's pretty obvious that someone tampered with the footballs. There may not be a smoking gun (yet), but there's obviously been a murder. Non-Pats fans aren't making this up just because they dislike the Pats.

[GoPats]

Exactly, so handing over the video isn't necessarily a credit to their integrity. It's just something that was mandatory and unavoidable.

Is not whether I knew or not. The ball boy knew the rules, and now that we know they are supposed to be delivered immediately to the field, it brings him into question. I mean, this is why they have the rules in place. Take a leak before or after to prevent any scrutiny about tampering.

But it is funny.

 

Oh sure, I don't think it was a credit to their integrity... obviously one of the first things anyone is going to ask for is access to CCTV footage. They had to. Didn't mean to project it that way. (Part of my job is to work with police in the US and RCMP in Canada to get them footage... video forensics is huge these days.) 

 

As far the rules for the ball boys go, I honestly have no idea. I would think, prior to this incident and the hoopla around it, it was not considered a big deal for the ball guy to duck into the men's room for 90 seconds on his way out to the field. I think the whole process was probably a little looser than it's all written up. No one had ever been accused of anything and there was no reason to suspect any chicanery, because referees touch the ball on every play when they set it. 

 

I want the NFL to answer these questions as part of their investigation:

 

1. Can they confirm that all 12 of NE's balls were measured with a gaugen pre-game? Or did Walt Anderson visually inspect them only? They've said the "process was followed," but what's the process, exactly? 

 

2. Were the PSIs written down somewhere before the game? For both NE and Indy's balls?

 

3. If so, what were the PSIs on Indy's balls before the game and at halftime? (Just for the basis of comparison, almost like a "control" group in a science experiment.) 

 

3. How much air, exactly, did all 12 of the balls lose? 

 

Getting these facts will allow us to rule certain things out (like atmospheric factors). Some of them have been mentioned or addressed in the "leaks" that have happened but I want to hear it from the official source. A lot of times, when a story breaks like this the overall gist is there, but the details are off. I just want to see those details, you know? 

[dynasty13]

I think this is completely different from the Marvin Harrison situation. I won't even go there, but there was no "this is only because he's a Colt" from Colts fans who defended him. There was certainly no "you guys are just jealous." 

 

And to that point, saying "it's only because this is the Patriots" is entirely dismissive of the fact that it's only the Patriots who have been accused of having non-compliant footballs. You talk about speculation and waiting for "real facts" and whatnot, but that is, again, dismissive of the fact that the Patriots balls weren't compliant, after having been checked by the officials.

 

Not only is the whole "everybody hates the Patriots" thing condescending on its face, it's also condescending to those who don't believe the potential alternatives that have been offered. It's not the weather, it's not the way the balls were conditioned, it's not the room in which they were measured... and you don't have to be the Mona Lisa Vito of the football world to understand that. You don't have to be a CIA interrogator to recognize that there were inconsistencies in Brady's comments.

 

Yes, people have jumped to conclusions. I try not to do that, generally speaking, but the conclusions being reached are more than logical. 1) The footballs were deflated, and footballs don't just lose air pressure for no reason; 2) if environmental conditions were the culprit, the Colts footballs would likely have been deflated also, and they evidently were not; 3) it's very unlikely that any league or club personnel would have tampered with the footballs on a whim. Add all that up, and reaching a conclusion is kind of hard to avoid. And most didn't reach that conclusion until it was reported that 11 of the 12 footballs were significantly non-compliant.

 

I get why that sucks as a Patriots fan, and I don't expect you to burn all your jerseys. But like I said, the whole "this is just because it's the Patriots" angle is really weak. Almost as weak as the "everybody does it" angle. It's pretty obvious that someone tampered with the footballs. There may not be a smoking gun (yet), but there's obviously been a murder. Non-Pats fans aren't making this up just because they dislike the Pats.

 

Fair enough about the first part...but I want to stay with this Marvin Harrison thing just because I'm talking about how people will 'defend their team until they are PROVEN to have done something', just as your fan base did then. Colts fan's did it with that situation and that's fine...but when Patriots fans do it with this situation, we are automatically considered wrong in the head. And, to use YOUR terminology, in Marvin's case not only WAS there a murder, but ALSO a smoking gun. And you guys still defended it saying there was no proof!

 

The fact that his gun was involved...in more than one incident...would certainly be a 'logical conclusion' for many that he would be involved somehow, mush like how you consider lots of the deflategate reports as easy to draw some conclusions. Listen, I'm not bringing Marvin up to rehash it...I'm bringing it up because the way people responded to it and the way you guys defended it is the same as how people are treating this situation. While we choose to wait for facts and wait for the findings of the actual investigation, others somehow already know and have chosen therefor not to listen to anything else.

 

And the way posters like bababooey are responding to our posts...it would be the equivalent of me simply ignoring any legitimate points of yours and just stomping my feet yelling 'MURDERERS! YOU SUPPORT MURDERERS! over and over and over again. Nothing was proven, the 'smoking gun' was not enough to convict, yet I already made up my mind. Boom...I'm right, you're wrong. Go murder some more people. 

 

That's the kind of nonsense that we're dealing with. 

[Superman]

1. Can they confirm that all 12 of NE's balls were measured with a gaugen pre-game? Or did Walt Anderson visually inspect them only? They've said the "process was followed," but what's the process, exactly? 

 

Is there any reason to believe that the balls weren't measured pre-game, with a gauge? This complaint evidently dates back as early as November. Do you think it's reasonable to believe that, in this game between the same two teams, with the accused team controlling the balls, that Walt Coleman would have just feel-tested the balls?

 

I find that hard to believe.

 

Yes, I think it should be clarified that the balls were tested properly with a gauge prior to the game. But there's really no reason to doubt that they were. 

[GoPats]

Is there any reason to believe that the balls weren't measured pre-game, with a gauge? This complaint evidently dates back as early as November. Do you think it's reasonable to believe that, in this game between the same two teams, with the accused team controlling the balls, that Walt Coleman would have just feel-tested the balls?

 

I find that hard to believe.

 

Yes, I think it should be clarified that the balls were tested properly with a gauge prior to the game. But there's really no reason to doubt that they were. 

 

I don't think that's what happened, but isn't it a possibility? Not a lot of fans or NFL people cared too much about ball PSI prior to last Monday. I can't speak to whether or not refs do that 100% of the time, or what happens when they go through the process.

 

Is there any chance Anderson checked the balls, thought they seemed fine, and proceeded without measuring them? Are the PSIs written down somewhere? Is there a form that has to be filled out, or whatever? I'd just like the NFL to clarify that process and yes, confirm that the balls were indeed measured with a gauge prior to kick-off. 

 

The other major question is how much did they deflate? Because, like I said, those numbers could conceivably deep-six Belichick's little science lecture last weekend. And I'm inclined to believe the Patriots know what the numbers are, and wouldn't have presented that argument if there was no way it could have been true.