Year of the Center

[Slick_Rick]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2303539-year-of-the-center-how-overlooked-linemen-shaped-the-2014-season

 

I saw this on bleacherreport and agreed. It all starts up front. I think our biggest reason for the slow starts of late are due to poor line play. I think that absolutely starts at the center position. It's evident that we are better with A.Q. running the line. Just my thoughts.

 

Mods: This article isn't specifically about the Colts, but it does offer some insight on Jon Harrison. Please move if necessary

[Smonroe]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2303539-year-of-the-center-how-overlooked-linemen-shaped-the-2014-season

 

I saw this on bleacherreport and agreed. It all starts up front. I think our biggest reason for the slow starts of late are due to poor line play. I think that absolutely starts at the center position. It's evident that we are better with A.Q. running the line. Just my thoughts.

 

Mods: This article isn't specifically about the Colts, but it does offer some insight on Jon Harrison. Please move if necessary

 

Good article. They do talk about the Colts:

 

"The Colts approach the playoffs with the inexperienced and exploitable Harrison protecting Andrew Luck and trying to create space for the team's glitchy running game. Harrison may be improving, but he will be hard-pressed to improve quickly enough to be an asset in a matchup against the conference superpowers.

 

Perhaps if the Colts had invested more at the center position—if not a Frederick, then a midround pick like Stork or a former starter like Montgomery—they might look like more than a one-and-done playoff team."

 

The flaw in that logic is that the Colts DID invest a mid round pick on a center. 

 

I've said many times that we should sell out on the O Line.  Spend the money, over draft if necessary.  It all starts there.  You can say what you want about Jerry Jones, but he did the right thing in Dallas in building that line.  A good back becomes a great one, a great QB will have a longer career, etc.

[Slick_Rick]

Good article. They do talk about the Colts:

 

"The Colts approach the playoffs with the inexperienced and exploitable Harrison protecting Andrew Luck and trying to create space for the team's glitchy running game. Harrison may be improving, but he will be hard-pressed to improve quickly enough to be an asset in a matchup against the conference superpowers.

 

Perhaps if the Colts had invested more at the center position—if not a Frederick, then a midround pick like Stork or a former starter like Montgomery—they might look like more than a one-and-done playoff team."

 

The flaw in that logic is that the Colts DID invest a mid round pick on a center. 

 

I've said many times that we should sell out on the O Line.  Spend the money, over draft if necessary.  It all starts there.  You can say what you want about Jerry Jones, but he did the right thing in Dallas in building that line.  A good back becomes a great one, a great QB will have a longer career, etc.

Completely agreed. Quality depth is so vital along the O-Line. We should absolutely go all out to build a line. I want to see what Luck looks like when he doesn't have to do it all by himself. Get a line and watch our ground game take off. Keep Andrew healthy. That's how you build a dynasty.

[jskinnz]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2303539-year-of-the-center-how-overlooked-linemen-shaped-the-2014-season

 

I saw this on bleacherreport and agreed. It all starts up front. I think our biggest reason for the slow starts of late are due to poor line play. I think that absolutely starts at the center position. It's evident that we are better with A.Q. running the line. Just my thoughts.

 

Mods: This article isn't specifically about the Colts, but it does offer some insight on Jon Harrison. Please move if necessary

 

I just cannot get behind the idea that Shipley is the answer.  I just don't believe it is as evident as you suggest.

[Smonroe]

Completely agreed. Quality depth is so vital along the O-Line. We should absolutely go all out to build a line. I want to see what Luck looks like when he doesn't have to do it all by himself. Get a line and watch our ground game take off. Keep Andrew healthy. That's how you build a dynasty.

 

Every now and then I listen to Polian on the Sirius NFL Channel.  I'd love to ask him why more teams don't buiild from the line out.

 

After Glenn retired our O Line deteriorated rapidly.  I know Ugoh was supposed to be the successor, but when that didn't work why didn't he make it a priority to get a LT?  The year we drafted three centers wasn't the answer either.

 

I really think you need to over draft, take a guy in the first that you know will be gone by your pick in the second.  Spend money on the right FA, and if he doesn't work out, move on until you find one that does.

 

If that means you're spending less money on skill players, so be it.  You can't take advantage of the skills when the QB is on his back or the RB is being greeted in the backfield.

 

Okay, I'm off the soapbox now...

[crazycolt1]

Completely agreed. Quality depth is so vital along the O-Line. We should absolutely go all out to build a line. I want to see what Luck looks like when he doesn't have to do it all by himself. Get a line and watch our ground game take off. Keep Andrew healthy. That's how you build a dynasty.

This is the best most thought out post in a while. You and Smonroe hit the nail on the head. In earlier post I said it wouldn't upset me at all if the Colts drafted nothing but linemen on both sides of the ball. Maybe if a good DB was there for the taking would work also. Luck is already a great QB. If he is given time he would be almost unstoppable.

[wesd2890]

Hilarious.. we draft a center in the mid rounds and we start a undrafted free agent.. o line was our glaring weakness the last 2 years.. and yet we continue to draft WRs.. this is why we were rated the worst draft last year.. smh.. i hope we hit free agency hard and heavy this year.. and/or get some experienced coaching staff

[crazycolt1]

Every now and then I listen to Polian on the Sirius NFL Channel.  I'd love to ask him why more teams don't buiild from the line out.

 

After Glenn retired our O Line deteriorated rapidly.  I know Ugoh was supposed to be the successor, but when that didn't work why didn't he make it a priority to get a LT?  The year we drafted three centers wasn't the answer either.

 

I really think you need to over draft, take a guy in the first that you know will be gone by your pick in the second.  Spend money on the right FA, and if he doesn't work out, move on until you find one that does.

 

If that means you're spending less money on skill players, so be it.  You can't take advantage of the skills when the QB is on his back or the RB is being greeted in the backfield.

 

Okay, I'm off the soapbox now...

That's OK by me. Stand tall on that soapbox. You need me to hand you a megaphone? :thmsup:

[Stephen]

Start holmes

[jskinnz]

Hilarious.. we draft a center in the mid rounds and we start a undrafted free agent.. o line was our glaring weakness the last 2 years.. and yet we continue to draft WRs.. this is why we were rated the worst draft last year.. smh.. i hope we hit free agency hard and heavy this year.. and/or get some experienced coaching staff

 

Dear Freaking God...

 

1) In the last 2 years alone, they have signed Thomas and Cherilus as free agents.  Drafted Holmes, Mewhort, & Thornton.  You can argue that the players have not worked but they have certainly made efforts to improve the line.

 

2) WR was a huge need as well.  I think in the next couple of years you will not be disappointed that Moncrief was selected. 

 

3) Does it really matter if they are playing a draft pick or an UDFA?  I can't explain the Holmes situation as I am not in the building but clearly they see something in 2014 in Harrison that they don't in Holmes.

 

4) And who cares where the Kiper's of the world rated the Colts draft.  It means less than nothing.  First - there ratings may in fact be different than the Colts and secondly, rating a draft before anyone has played a down is comical at best.  It means nothing.

[TKnight24]

Every now and then I listen to Polian on the Sirius NFL Channel. I'd love to ask him why more teams don't buiild from the line out.

After Glenn retired our O Line deteriorated rapidly. I know Ugoh was supposed to be the successor, but when that didn't work why didn't he make it a priority to get a LT? The year we drafted three centers wasn't the answer either.

I really think you need to over draft, take a guy in the first that you know will be gone by your pick in the second. Spend money on the right FA, and if he doesn't work out, move on until you find one that does.

If that means you're spending less money on skill players, so be it. You can't take advantage of the skills when the QB is on his back or the RB is being greeted in the backfield.

Okay, I'm off the soapbox now...

Preach!!!!

I say take the Seattle approach. Sell out on defense and offensive line

Winning SB's with average WR's...... Genius!!!!!!!

[TKnight24]

Also, good to know I'm not the only person who thinks the will be One & Done in the playoffs

[Superman]

Preach!!!!

I say take the Seattle approach. Sell out on defense and offensive line

Winning SB's with average WR's...... Genius!!!!!!!

 

Seattle has a worse offensive line than the Colts, by pretty much every objective and subjective metric, and Russell Wilson gets sacked more and more often than Andrew Luck.

[jskinnz]

Also, good to know I'm not the only person who thinks the will be One & Done in the playoffs

 

This is good news?

[jskinnz]

Seattle has a worse offensive line than the Colts, by pretty much every objective and subjective metric, and Russell Wilson gets sacked more and more often than Andrew Luck.

 

Kind of goes to show that there is no magic bullet to developing o'lines or teams for that matter.  They have 2 first round picks and 2 second rounders starting on their line.

[TKnight24]

Seattle has a worse offensive line than the Colts, by pretty much every objective and subjective metric, and Russell Wilson gets sacked more and more often than Andrew Luck.

I know that. The Seattle approach I was referring to was sell out on defense. The offensive line part was just placing what I had quoted into the mix

Seattle's line looks good cause of Lynch and then Wilson playing Madden like back there. And then when over the course of the game they look even better cause the late 3rd into the 4th QTR the defense is gassed out from tackling Lynch so they can't even get off blocks much

[Superman]

Kind of goes to show that there is no magic bullet to developing o'lines or teams for that matter.  They have 2 first round picks and 2 second rounders starting on their line.

 

Yup. And if you go back over free agency the last three years, you'll see a lot of teams spending big money on linemen, and most of those teams still have issues on their offensive line. Evan Mathis is probably the biggest exception, but he was the secondary guy in that market, with Ben Grubbs and Carl Nicks getting most of the attention and money.

 

So, just to repeat what you said, there is no magic bullet. Especially with the offensive line.

 

That's why GMs draft according to how they rank players overall, not based on positional need. People saying "sell out on offensive and defensive line" haven't considered the issues that arise when you pass on talented players to reach for a perceived need.

[jvan1973]

Also, good to know I'm not the only person who thinks the will be One & Done in the playoffs

great news. More games you won't watch anyway

[Superman]

I know that. The Seattle approach I was referring to was sell out on defense. The offensive line part was just placing what I had quoted into the mix

Seattle's line looks good cause of Lynch and then Wilson playing Madden like back there. And then when over the course of the game they look even better cause the late 3rd into the 4th QTR the defense is gassed out from tackling Lynch so they can't even get off blocks much

 

Yeah... okay... sure....

[dw49]

Yup. And if you go back over free agency the last three years, you'll see a lot of teams spending big money on linemen, and most of those teams still have issues on their offensive line. Evan Mathis is probably the biggest exception, but he was the secondary guy in that market, with Ben Grubbs and Carl Nicks getting most of the attention and money.

 

So, just to repeat what you said, there is no magic bullet. Especially with the offensive line.

 

That's why GMs draft according to how they rank players overall, not based on positional need. People saying "sell out on offensive and defensive line" haven't considered the issues that arise when you pass on talented players to reach for a perceived need.

 

 

Some work and some don't . Levitre was a disaster , Vasquez was a stud. Really seems like a huge crapshoot with FA offensive linemen. Mathis actually really didn't create much "buzz" at all. He was resigned by Philly before he hit the open market.  Contract was 5 years 25 mill with only 6 mill guaranteed. Too bad Philly was smart enough to what seemed at the time an "overpay" as Grigson probably would have grabbed him. 

[Nesjan3]

Also, good to know I'm not the only person who thinks the will be One & Done in the playoffs

lol way to be optimistic and hopefull for your team, love the support

[Superman]

Some work and some don't . Levitre was a disaster , Vasquez was a stud. Really seems like a huge crapshoot with FA offensive linemen. Mathis actually really didn't create much "buzz" at all. He was resigned by Philly before he hit the open market.  Contract was 5 years 25 mill with only 6 mill guaranteed. Too bad Philly was smart enough to what seemed at the time an "overpay" as Grigson probably would have grabbed him. 

 

He hit the market, just not for very long. And I don't know how much the Colts would have been willing to do. He did his deal in 2012, when the Colts were pretty cap strapped. He probably would have been on Grigson's radar in 2013.

 

And good examples in Levitre and Vasquez. Levitre was widely considered to be the superior target, and got a lot more money. Vasquez hasn't been an All Pro for the Broncos, but he's been really valuable to them, playing several different positions due to injury, and doing a reasonably good job.

[Dark Superman]

I just wonder how the interior line would be playing if Holmes was the center.

[TKnight24]

lol way to be optimistic and hopefull for your team, love the support

Just hard to be optimistic when you watch them play. Slow starts, numerous turnovers, etc etc

Can't play like that and win against the big dogs

[BOTT]

Every now and then I listen to Polian on the Sirius NFL Channel.  I'd love to ask him why more teams don't buiild from the line out.

 

After Glenn retired our O Line deteriorated rapidly.  I know Ugoh was supposed to be the successor, but when that didn't work why didn't he make it a priority to get a LT?  The year we drafted three centers wasn't the answer either.

 

I really think you need to over draft, take a guy in the first that you know will be gone by your pick in the second.  Spend money on the right FA, and if he doesn't work out, move on until you find one that does.

 

If that means you're spending less money on skill players, so be it.  You can't take advantage of the skills when the QB is on his back or the RB is being greeted in the backfield.

 

Okay, I'm off the soapbox now...

To answer your fist question....I'm have come to the conclusion that many of the people running nfl teams aren't nearly as intelligent/football savy as they are portrayed.

[BOTT]

Kind of goes to show that there is no magic bullet to developing o'lines or teams for that matter.  They have 2 first round picks and 2 second rounders starting on their line.

Don't think they 90's Cowboys had one first rounder on their offensive line.....widely considered to be one of the best ever.

[dw49]

He hit the market, just not for very long. And I don't know how much the Colts would have been willing to do. He did his deal in 2012, when the Colts were pretty cap strapped. He probably would have been on Grigson's radar in 2013.

 

And good examples in Levitre and Vasquez. Levitre was widely considered to be the superior target, and got a lot more money. Vasquez hasn't been an All Pro for the Broncos, but he's been really valuable to them, playing several different positions due to injury, and doing a reasonably good job.

 

 

Yes you're right , he did hit he the market . 4 days , so pretty much for sure he wanted to stay an Eagle. I do think Grigson could have fit him as he only was guaranteed 6 mill. He could guarantee a 2013 roster bonus or 2013 salary.. multiple ways to get that deal done without much 2012 cap room. But moot point as Mathis obviously didn't even negotiate with another team.

[Gavin]

I just wonder how the interior line would be playing if Holmes was the center.

Doubt we ever find out, At least in an emergency situation, Staff sees him as a Guard....which is good because he is mobile, Thing is I don't think we even will ever get to see him get a long look at Guard either, For some reason staff don't give him a shot....Im not believing this whole "He's got to stay out of the training room" line like I was before

[wesd2890]

Dear Freaking God...

1) In the last 2 years alone, they have signed Thomas and Cherilus as free agents. Drafted Holmes, Mewhort, & Thornton. You can argue that the players have not worked but they have certainly made efforts to improve the line.

2) WR was a huge need as well. I think in the next couple of years you will not be disappointed that Moncrief was selected.

3) Does it really matter if they are playing a draft pick or an UDFA? I can't explain the Holmes situation as I am not in the building but clearly they see something in 2014 in Harrison that they don't in Holmes.

4) And who cares where the Kiper's of the world rated the Colts draft. It means less than nothing. First - there ratings may in fact be different than the Colts and secondly, rating a draft before anyone has played a down is comical at best. It means nothing.

Lol.. players draft grade at the combine means alot.. we drafted/signed all those linemen but not one is playing besides cherilus.. as for moncrief.. i like him and think he will be good.. but the pick is mind boggling.. we had reggie, t.y, fleener, allen, nicks, and da'rick... WR was not a must have position.. we couldnt feed all the ones we have.. instead we draft players that couldnt make the team.

Edit.. i forgot lavon brazil and griff walen

[Smonroe]

To answer your fist question....I'm have come to the conclusion that many of the people running nfl teams aren't nearly as intelligent/football savy as they are portrayed.

 

I know there's tons of variables that go into the success of building a team.  But it seems simple that, at least on offense, that the key is having a strong O line.

 

Yes, I understand that it's easy to say and hard to do.  I also understand that Grig brought in Thomas, Cherilus, even Satele (who wasn't bad), and drafted Mewhort and others.

 

But my point is that you keep trying and turn it over until you have the right guys.  Make it a priority, over flashy WRs or RBs.  

 

Anyway, I'm sure Polian would say he had to balance the payroll so we went with the guys we had.

[Superman]

Yes you're right , he did hit he the market . 4 days , so pretty much for sure he wanted to stay an Eagle. I do think Grigson could have fit him as he only was guaranteed 6 mill. He could guarantee a 2013 roster bonus or 2013 salary.. multiple ways to get that deal done without much 2012 cap room. But moot point as Mathis obviously didn't even negotiate with another team.

Kinda goes back to the Freeney decision we were discussing earlier.

But yeah, they made room for Satele and Redding. They could have structured something for Mathis. But like you said, I don't think he was ever intending to go anywhere.

[Superman]

instead we draft players that couldnt make the team

Like who?

Also, you just named three receivers that are no longer on the active roster in support of your claim that we didn't need Moncrief. That's ironic.

[LockeDown]

Dallas has had almost 2 decades of high picks and squandered most of them, (much like the Colts who tried 1 year and missed on all of them).  Their fortune turned when they drafted that tackle from USC (Smith I think).  I can't really call Jones a genius when he's obviously bypassed great linemen all of those years.  In other words, I think he stumbled on this line.  I don't think he ever set out to be a running team.  I think he nabbed a veteran offensive coordinator who saw a good opportunity.  that being said, I sure wished the Colts had that line.

[jskinnz]

Lol.. players draft grade at the combine means alot.. we drafted/signed all those linemen but not one is playing besides cherilus.. as for moncrief.. i like him and think he will be good.. but the pick is mind boggling.. we had reggie, t.y, fleener, allen, nicks, and da'rick... WR was not a must have position.. we couldnt feed all the ones we have.. instead we draft players that couldnt make the team.

Edit.. i forgot lavon brazil and griff walen

 

You have strange conclusions here...

 

Draft grades at the combine?  WTH are you talking about?  You said the Colts draft was rated poorly which has nothing to do with the combine. And those grades come from Mel Kiper and his ilk, which is very often nothing close to how the teams rate players.  That is one point but the further point is rating drafts in the hours after they happen is just ridiculous.

 

As far as the linemen who are playing - Mewhort has started all year.  Thornton has started for the better part of two years.  Thomas got hurt - or else he may be playing.  SO I am not sure the point you make here although I am pretty sure it failed.

 

As to Moncrief, Fleener and Allen are TE's so not sure how they factor into the point you are making here.  And like Superman said you highlight, you quite strangely reference 3 people who are no longer on the team as evidence to support a claim that WR was not a need.

[NewColtsFan]

Hilarious.. we draft a center in the mid rounds and we start a undrafted free agent.. o line was our glaring weakness the last 2 years.. and yet we continue to draft WRs.. this is why we were rated the worst draft last year.. smh.. i hope we hit free agency hard and heavy this year.. and/or get some experienced coaching staff

 

The center we drafted -- Holmes -- has had a list of issues and at least to the coaches, is not ready to play fulltime.

 

We drafted Moncrief because he was best player available.    And he's now playing like it.    Nothing wrong with that.

 

I think it was Superman who recently said he didn't think we'll go hard in FA,  probably wind up like last year when he added on a few instead of the year before when we brought in 8-10.    I suspect Superman is right.

 

We'd be much better if Thornton and Holmes were delivering the way the team hoped for and not as they have.    Both have been BIG disappointments.

[HtownColt]

#FreeHolmes

[Gavin]

The center we drafted -- Holmes -- has had a list of issues and at least to the coaches, is not ready to play fulltime.

 

We drafted Moncrief because he was best player available.    And he's now playing like it.    Nothing wrong with that.

 

I think it was Superman who recently said he didn't think we'll go hard in FA,  probably wind up like last year when he added on a few instead of the year before when we brought in 8-10.    I suspect Superman is right.

 

We'd be much better if Thornton and Holmes were delivering the way the team hoped for and not as they have.    Both have been BIG disappointments.

Thorntons been disappointing, I have no idea what the coaching staff has against Holmes at this point but I don't think its injury related

[DougDew]

As far as the OL in general, no team can be expected to hit on all of its additions.  At this point after all of the churning of the line, I think the Colts have two quality starters in AC and Mewhort (who I think could play RT next year or the next), and mediocre play at C with either Harrison, Holmes, or Shipley.  I think the positions that are manned by those players are fine.  The Colts need to find 2 more OL in the offseason.

 

If the guard play would be consistently good, I think the C position is fine. 

 

I'd like to see an Oline of:  AC, Reitz, Har/Holmes/AQ, an FA or Nixon, Mewhort (assuming Gosder is hurt).

 

 

[OLD FAN MAN]

Don't think they 90's Cowboys had one first rounder on their offensive line.....widely considered to be one of the best ever.

1975 don Coryell cardinals allowed only 8 sacks in the whole season, bob young, roger finnie, Conrad dobler, tom banks at center, and dan dierdorf.  in 76 and 77 dierdorf did not allow a sack in either season. the best of all time

[Slick_Rick]

I just cannot get behind the idea that Shipley is the answer.  I just don't believe it is as evident as you suggest.

I think in the games that he has played, the offense has flowed better. At the very least, he didn't have false starts or any bad snaps if my recollection is accurate. I'm not saying he is the longterm solution, but I believe he would give us a better chance this season. As a fan, I felt that we ran the ball well, and that pass protection is better with Shipley than with Harrison