All things Jonotthan Harrison (Merge)

[Superman]

OK, fair enough and straight from the hip. But this is the type of stance I believe will keep other from coming over in the future. Players want to play. Now If Grigs said we want you back ... but only until we feel Harrison has advanced to the point of almost being as good as you, then he will take over., then fine. Shipley's confusion over the situation belies that conversation happened. i don't think it is good policy, but it's Grigs show.. But what statement does it send to others? I found the numbers and PFF grades Shipley much higher. Conventional stats are close, but even they lean toward Shipley too.

Shipley was a waiver claim. He was awarded to a team near the bottom of the wire. He wasn't a high demand player that had great prospects for being on someone's roster, much less starting. If we want to sign someone, I don't think they'll be thinking about the stopgap center that got benched.

 

I found a Stampede Blue article re-examining this very situation.  They cover every angle available to us fans.  At the end, it is close but they feel Shipley still should have the starting job.

Talk about bias... Stampede Blue and the majority of the readers there call anything that doesn't match with the hive thinking a bad decision. They've been on Shipley since 2012, maybe with good reason, but if Harrison is Grigson's guy, Shipley is SB's guy. The poll results are no surprise.

I don't mean to try to discredit every alternative analysis, but you mentioned qualified analysis, not fan votes and biased bloggers.

 

There's nothing concrete supporting the Grigson/Pagano story here, except faith and trust in their knowledge of internal secrets.  That is why the Shipley supporters continue to ask why.  And vote in polls as above.

I think our comments in this thread have been more on point than what "the Shipley supporters" have been suggesting. It's not faith and trust in the staff, it's just an understanding of where they're coming from. They might not be right, but there's no sense in continuing to complain about someone like Shipley not playing, when we all know that there's nothing special about him. Harrison might not be the next Jason Kelce or Alex Mack, but he clearly has more upside than Shipley.

That doesn't mean Grigson and Pagano aren't wrong. Harrison might prove incapable of refining his game. Our line play might deteriorate. I'm not saying "the coaches know best, we shouldn't second guess them." I'm only saying I think it's pointless to keep harping on this.

[ColtsBlueFL]

They used to have the segments on iTunes, but I don't think they are available any longer. I think you can listen to his segments here

http://www.1070thefan.com

Venturi is on all three shows once a week.

 

Thanks!  I could use more local Indy stuff.  Night have to program my smart phone at times too.

[BlueCollarColts]

I think we go back to Shipley as well, but I bet Harrison will be a beast here real soon. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Shipley was a waiver claim. He was awarded to a team near the bottom of the wire. He wasn't a high demand player that had great prospects for being on someone's roster, much less starting. If we want to sign someone, I don't think they'll be thinking about the stopgap center that got benched.

 

True, but one we traded out for a 7th round pick, and then a waiver claim from the Ravens that was released for his guard play... not center... No?  Still shows how bad we are to need a waiver guy to fill in at center and guard. 

 

Talk about bias... Stampede Blue and the majority of the readers there call anything that doesn't match with the hive thinking a bad decision. They've been on Shipley since 2012, maybe with good reason, but if Harrison is Grigson's guy, Shipley is SB's guy. The poll results are no surprise.

I don't mean to try to discredit every alternative analysis, but you mentioned qualified analysis, not fan votes and biased bloggers.

 

I don't read Stampede Blue, but the article appeared so I read that one.  Josh Wilson is Lead writer, and Editor in Chief.  Also claims to be credentialed by the Colts organization (whatever that means).  If that is a biased piece, then the whole site likely is and most every other site in the country might well be as well.  So I can't determine, was his article an Op-Ed, or journalistic investigation?   What is more funny is that it's all about two below par players.  Seems there's a huge and heavy scapegoat medal that needs hung, and it appears this is the most convenient place to do it.  Beats me.

 

I think our comments in this thread have been more on point than what "the Shipley supporters" have been suggesting. It's not faith and trust in the staff, it's just an understanding of where they're coming from. They might not be right, but there's no sense in continuing to complain about someone like Shipley not playing, when we all know that there's nothing special about him. Harrison might not be the next Jason Kelce or Alex Mack, but he clearly has more upside than Shipley.

 

Unrealized upside.  Many busts have had mega upside at one point as well... that was never achieved. But I digress.  Let's hope experience and coaching bring the upside out of Harrison sooner rather than later.  Actually, most all on the line need to achieve more of their upside, IMO.

That doesn't mean Grigson and Pagano aren't wrong. Harrison might prove incapable of refining his game. Our line play might deteriorate. I'm not saying "the coaches know best, we shouldn't second guess them." I'm only saying I think it's pointless to keep harping on this.

 

 

Agreed, only because I agree Shipley isn't an upgrade over Harrison.  My disappointment in this mess is the non-delivery of a huge package Pagano wrapped up before the season  in Khaled Holmes, that never got delivered. 

[Superman]

Agreed, only because I agree Shipley isn't an upgrade over Harrison.  My disappointment in this mess is the non-delivery of a huge package Pagano wrapped up before the season  in Khaled Holmes, that never got delivered. 

 

We definitely agree there. I don't know what happened with Holmes. Maybe ztboiler is right. 

 

We also agree about the scapegoating. So much noise over a journeyman lineman that isn't anything special. You're right, also, that he spent most of last year playing guard, but surely the Ravens would have considered his value as a swing backup. Bottom line is he didn't make the final 53, and then a bunch of teams that weren't good last year didn't claim him, and he made it all the way to us. I was just saying that I don't think the fact we benched him will be a factor with anyone else we want to sign.

 

As for Josh Wilson, yeah, they get credentialed, and I'm not trying to undermine him or his staff. But he's not a reporter. He will report things from time to time, like practice reports, etc. But he's a blogger. They've created a category that's been labeled gonzo journalism, which is basically a mesh of reported facts and opinions, with the primary focus of grabbing readers and generating discussion. They sometimes know what they're talking about, and they can analyze when they want, but there is a lot of "once I state my opinion and support it with some stats and a couple of gifs, it becomes fact." And then, when the staff doesn't do what they want, the crusade starts.

[coltsfanatic24]

When Shipley was starting, we had the #5 o-line in the entire league according to PFF. Luck was barely touched, we were also good running the ball. I have no idea why he was benched, but it wasn't a good decision and it hurt the chemistry of the o-line. Shipley was the glue that kept the o-line together, he should be starting over Harrison.

[ColtsBlueFL]

We definitely agree there. I don't know what happened with Holmes. Maybe ztboiler is right. 

 

We also agree about the scapegoating. So much noise over a journeyman lineman that isn't anything special. You're right, also, that he spent most of last year playing guard, but surely the Ravens would have considered his value as a swing backup. Bottom line is he didn't make the final 53, and then a bunch of teams that weren't good last year didn't claim him, and he made it all the way to us. I was just saying that I don't think the fact we benched him will be a factor with anyone else we want to sign.

 

As for Josh Wilson, yeah, they get credentialed, and I'm not trying to undermine him or his staff. But he's not a reporter. He will report things from time to time, like practice reports, etc. But he's a blogger. They've created a category that's been labeled gonzo journalism, which is basically a mesh of reported facts and opinions, with the primary focus of grabbing readers and generating discussion. They sometimes know what they're talking about, and they can analyze when they want, but there is a lot of "once I state my opinion and support it with some stats and a couple of gifs, it becomes fact." And then, when the staff doesn't do what they want, the crusade starts.

 

Ahhhhh..... I see. Learn something new.  So said true investigative journalism has gone the way of the Dodo bird.

[Surge89]

This is a solid primer - fair and balanced - about the O-line situation and takes into account the progress that was clearly exhibited during the first half of the season.  Your points about the QB's involvement are particularly insightful as well.  

 

To those that think there is some big problem to solve on the O-line with grand sweeping moves to be made: Let's consider that our 3 interior starters go Rookie, Rookie, Year 2(nicked up).  Added to the mix is poor performing and injured RT.  It is standard procedure for us fans to live in the moment - no surprise that we'd call for change based on recent output, but we have good players, and they will be given more time to mature no matter the call of the fans for change.  

 

Staying the course is the only economically viable path to the quality of O-line play we seek.

 

At full strength, we thought this was a group we could enjoy watching, and they are clearly worth the investment in the future.

 

whoa whoa whoa... way way too much logic in one post.  Can we please have this kind person escorted to the logical fan section? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:-)

[Surge89]

Shipley was a waiver claim. He was awarded to a team near the bottom of the wire. He wasn't a high demand player that had great prospects for being on someone's roster, much less starting. If we want to sign someone, I don't think they'll be thinking about the stopgap center that got benched.

 

Talk about bias... Stampede Blue and the majority of the readers there call anything that doesn't match with the hive thinking a bad decision. They've been on Shipley since 2012, maybe with good reason, but if Harrison is Grigson's guy, Shipley is SB's guy. The poll results are no surprise.

I don't mean to try to discredit every alternative analysis, but you mentioned qualified analysis, not fan votes and biased bloggers.

 

I think our comments in this thread have been more on point than what "the Shipley supporters" have been suggesting. It's not faith and trust in the staff, it's just an understanding of where they're coming from. They might not be right, but there's no sense in continuing to complain about someone like Shipley not playing, when we all know that there's nothing special about him. Harrison might not be the next Jason Kelce or Alex Mack, but he clearly has more upside than Shipley.

That doesn't mean Grigson and Pagano aren't wrong. Harrison might prove incapable of refining his game. Our line play might deteriorate. I'm not saying "the coaches know best, we shouldn't second guess them." I'm only saying I think it's pointless to keep harping on this.

 

Supe you just go ahead and follow Mr. Boiler please.  No need for so much sense here. 

[SteelCityColt]

whoa whoa whoa... way way too much logic in one post.  Can we please have this kind person escorted to the logical fan section? 

 

:-)

Unfortunately we've had to pull a tarp over it due to low attendance.

[RockThatBlue]

Thought he had a good game today.

Thoughts?

[Moopsiepuffs]

Thought he was alright. The line was better with Shipley in there.

Thoughts?

[HtownColt]

Thought he was alright. The line was better with Shipley in there.

Thoughts?

Shipley didn't play today

[BlueCollarColts]

He played well, I thought he had a very good game, don't recall him ever really making any mistakes. 

[Moopsiepuffs]

Shipley didn't play today

I mean when he was center earlier in the season and was dropped for no clear reason.

[MTC]

Good enough to remain the starter. 

[pgt_rob]

Shipley didn't play today

He played on special teams. Saw it with my own 2 eyes.

[TKnight24]

He played well, I thought he had a very good game, don't recall him ever really making any mistakes.

Pretty sure the ball smacked in him in the batooty on that bad snap we had

[Superman]

I mean when he was center earlier in the season and was dropped for no clear reason.

It's old, and it's time to move on. Either Harrison had a good game or not. No need to bring up Shipley every time someone says something Harrison.

[Superman]

He played well, I thought he had a very good game, don't recall him ever really making any mistakes.

One bad snap that I saw.

[Imped]

Shipley did in fact play on KOR today. I didn't see him take any snaps on the OL.

[Smonroe]

I'll wait for the Ben Gundy analysis, but he looked okay to me.

 

We even had a Holmes appearance today!  I was thinking the Colts made him up.

[Indycrazy1287]

People act like we benched Alex Mack for Harrison...it's not like Shipley was THAT amazing during his time. And I already know the PFF grades so don't act like it's end all be all. Plus, the more experience Harrison gets, the better he will be for years to come. Who knows why the coaches chose to do this, none of us are in charge! So let's drop the negativity and let the season play out.

Besides, how does any of this affect us on a day to day basis?

[Bluefire4]

He played well. Still not sure if that snap hit him accidently or he thought Luck was under center.

[The Shrink]

I liked the pick up of Harrison, and am very excited now that he is a starter! Was just wondering how he compares to Jeff Saturday in his fist year as a colt?

[ProblChld32]

Thought he had a good game today.

Thoughts?

 

Outside of the Botched snap he played decent. Atleast he's not jumping offsides any more. im seeing progress from him. 

[Valpo2004]

People act like we benched Alex Mack for Harrison...it's not like Shipley was THAT amazing during his time. And I already know the PFF grades so don't act like it's end all be all. Plus, the more experience Harrison gets, the better he will be for years to come. Who knows why the coaches chose to do this, none of us are in charge! So let's drop the negativity and let the season play out.

Besides, how does any of this affect us on a day to day basis?

 

The coaches rightly receive criticism for choosing to play inferior players.  Which honestly with this coaching staff happens far too often.  Playing DHB for 3/4ths of the season over literally anyone else who can actually catch the ball.  Playing Nicks over Moncrief.  Several failed guards over Reitz.  Playing Satele over Shipley and then trading away Shipley while playing Satele.  

 

This one is a minor one, but it still sticks out as an inferior player playing.  And we also never get an answer on what the heck happened to Holmes.  Minor ankle injury in the pre-season where he is considered the starter. . . should be ready for the season.  Then the season get's rolling we get Shipley in there . . . Holmes no where to be seen.  Then seemingly without reason we switch over to Harrison and Holmes is still no where to be seen.  

 

I'm not sure what it is but with linemen they play inferior players far too often and with WR's they are too slow to bench a vet in favor of a superior younger player.  

[Superman]

Ahhhhh..... I see. Learn something new.  So said true investigative journalism has gone the way of the Dodo bird.

 

Since we're talking about disagreeing with PFF grades, here's a specific example of "what they heck were they watching?"

 

In yesterday's game, they give Jerrell Freeman a +2.4 coverage grade in 44 coverage snaps, and D'Qwell Jackson got a +2.1 coverage grade in 54 coverage snaps. By comparison, Vontae Davis got a +0.3 coverage grade in 33 coverage snaps. Averaged out, Jerrell Freeman was +.054 per coverage snap, Jackson was +.039 per coverage snap, and Davis was +.009 per coverage snap. I don't think I really need to explain why I disagree with those grades.

 

In fairness, their coverage grades are likely to change after the games are watched again with coaches' film. It's really hard to watch and grade every coverage snap without it. Still, it's hard to understand how anyone can watch the TV broadcast and come up with positive coverage grades for those two guys in yesterday's game.

 

I'm not trying to nitpick. As I said, I think PFF is generally good. But there are times that I think there's legitimate disagreement with them. Their overall work probably balances out, but there's legitimate reason to question some of their stuff.

[Dark Superman]

How did he look on Sunday?

[sixfive]

I feel Shipley played better at center.  I did not understand move, the line had a better flow with shipley in there.

[Superman]

How did he look on Sunday?

 

Did a pretty good job blocking. Not great in the run game, but okay. Didn't allow any pressures, to my eye. Had one bad snap.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Since we're talking about disagreeing with PFF grades, here's a specific example of "what they heck were they watching?"

 

In yesterday's game, they give Jerrell Freeman a +2.4 coverage grade in 44 coverage snaps, and D'Qwell Jackson got a +2.1 coverage grade in 54 coverage snaps. By comparison, Vontae Davis got a +0.3 coverage grade in 33 coverage snaps. Averaged out, Jerrell Freeman was +.054 per coverage snap, Jackson was +.039 per coverage snap, and Davis was +.009 per coverage snap. I don't think I really need to explain why I disagree with those grades.

 

In fairness, their coverage grades are likely to change after the games are watched again with coaches' film. It's really hard to watch and grade every coverage snap without it. Still, it's hard to understand how anyone can watch the TV broadcast and come up with positive coverage grades for those two guys in yesterday's game.

 

I'm not trying to nitpick. As I said, I think PFF is generally good. But there are times that I think there's legitimate disagreement with them. Their overall work probably balances out, but there's legitimate reason to question some of their stuff.

 

Do they just throw numbers on a page and dust their hands, or do the preface it with a primer on what they saw and how it creates the grade?  Maybe the do that when they review off the All 22.

 

I did  not see the game, but I heard it over my smartphone in SWFL and TuneIn Radio app.  (Legal!) So I cannot comment on whether DQJax and Freeman deserved their grades or not.  BTW, what was Gody's compared to Davis when Davis left?  From the folks in chat, I know what to expect.

[Superman]

Do they just throw numbers on a page and dust their hands, or do the preface it with a primer on what they saw and how it creates the grade?  Maybe the do that when they review off the All 22.

 

I did  not see the game, but I heard it over my smartphone in SWFL and TuneIn Radio app.  (Legal!) So I cannot comment on whether DQJax and Freeman deserved their grades or not.  BTW, what was Gody's compared to Davis when Davis left?  From the folks in chat, I know what to expect.

 

No primer. They do a summarized game review, highlighting some noteworthy performers. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/12/01/refo-redskins-colts-week-13/

 

I don't know if you'll get a chance to re-watch the game, but Freeman and Jackson both made plays in coverage, but they both got beat in coverage, also. Both Reed and Helu plain undressed Freeman on Washington's first TD drive in the 2nd quarter, including the eventual TD to Helu. They both got beat to the outside, several times. Neither of them were good in coverage, and it was plain to see. Yet, they received the two highest coverage grades, by far.

 

Also, Gordy got a +0.6 in coverage. I already noted that Davis got a +0.3. Probably not what you expected... I'll  revisit this later in the week, after they've had a chance to review the coaches' film. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

No primer. They do a summarized game review, highlighting some noteworthy performers. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/12/01/refo-redskins-colts-week-13/

 

I don't know if you'll get a chance to re-watch the game, but Freeman and Jackson both made plays in coverage, but they both got beat in coverage, also. Both Reed and Helu plain undressed Freeman on Washington's first TD drive in the 2nd quarter, including the eventual TD to Helu. They both got beat to the outside, several times. Neither of them were good in coverage, and it was plain to see. Yet, they received the two highest coverage grades, by far.

 

Also, Gordy got a +0.6 in coverage. I already noted that Davis got a +0.3. Probably not what you expected... I'll  revisit this later in the week, after they've had a chance to review the coaches' film. 

 

This month is really busy, I'll be tied up except game day/nights, so no re watch.  I'll defer to those I see and the reports of many reputable folks on the others.  And I'm astounded about the PFF coverage grades, especiall one Josh Gordy.  From game day thread and chat, I would have thought Gordy put on shades and set up a lounge chair and a table with a tropical fruity drink while watching his man catch yet another back breaking score!  ;-)  /s

[dudeski]

Pff grades are horrible. I highly suggest not mentioning or reading that trash

[rock8591]

I've always said, the most popular player on the team is oftentimes the backup QB, RB, or Center.

 

By the way some have talked about Shipley during the past few years, we would have thought that he was Alex Mack.

[coltsfanatic24]

He was average but has been consistently bad all season, defenders are getting free shots at Luck up the A gaps. Starting with the Ravens game, Luck was hit hard so many times and it was mostly pressure from the middle.

 

 Out of 40 centers graded this year by @pff, Jonotthan Harrison is ranked 35th. A.Q. Shipley is ranked 7th. No reason Shipley should have been benched for this guy. When Shipley was starting, we were great passing and running and Luck was barely touched. Harrison should not be starting, he's going to eventually cost us in a playoff game with his mental mistakes.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Pff grades are horrible. I highly suggest not mentioning or reading that trash

 

This is what the Front Office tells agents of players when they bring that data with them to the salary bargaining table?

 

So I guess I'll be awaiting your extensive and accurate analysis on all of the Colts grades based upon every play they were involved in. ;-)

 

I have the feeling from input of many here that no web site, TV segment, or blog is at all is reputable enough for player analysis. Only what they feel from what they see on national TV, and the coaches sound bytes have merit.

 

I don't subscribe to PFF and have rarely read it (usually a link from a forum member), but some here do.  While they mention it is not perfect nor agreed with at times by knowledgeable members, they still report value to the product.  Enough to convince me to maybe give a subscription a go knowing that there are caveats.  So you can believe it is horrible, while I believe it can be a valuable supplement of information while not, as Superman puts it, an authority. To each their own.

[Coffeedrinker]

I have not watched the entire game yet but from what I have seen so far, he was average at best.  I've seen several times over the past few weeks that teams will leave Harrison uncovered but make it look like two LBers will be coming up the middle.  Harrison will focus on the guy closest to him.  When the ball is snapped the LB over Harrison will drop back into coverage and the other LB will run right by Harrison.  Sometimes the RB has been able to pick him up, other times he hasn't.  The other team gets Harrison on that every time.

 

What he needs to do is, at the snap, step so he positions himself at the centerline of the two LBers and then get his hands up and out wide.  He's not going to be able to block a LB at full speed with one arm but he doesn't have to, he just needs to slow him down the the RB can get into position to make the block.  But what happens instead is one LB drops into coverage, one LB runs free into the backfield and Harrison is standing there blocking no one.

 

he doesn't get a lot of movement in run blocking and he gets pushed back a lot when pass blocking.  I must admit, I still do not see what the coaches see in him.

[lollygagger8]

Which coaches daughter did Holmes go after ? I don't understand why they hate him so much. Let him play guard instead of Thornton, and put Shipley in at center. Or put Shipley in at Guard. He outplayed Thornton as well (which doesn't seem that hard for whatever reason) 

 

Cherilus has been playing really bad as well, but he always has a good year, then a down year. (Apparently it's his down year this year) 

 

I'd be happy with: 

 

Castanzo, Mewhort, Shipley, Holmes, Cherilus 

 

or 

 

Castanzo, Mewhort, Holmes, Shipley, Cherilus