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All things Jonotthan Harrison (Merge)


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Also, Shipley and Harrison at their worst are still far better than Satele was last season. Ironically, Satele is playing well for the Dolphins, but our line play is much improved, even with the inconsistencies we've been experiencing lately.

Quit it with this considered, well thought out, reasonable opinions will ya?

Shipleym, despite several seasons of proving to be a middle of the road at best C, is quite obviously the answer to all evils and the secret of not having to live as a poor cousin to New England. In fact blow the team up and just keep Shipley as the starting piece. Maybe bring back Rogers.

See.. Extremism is so much more fun :P

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PFF is the only one I know of, and I think they provide a very valuable service. But just because they're the only ones publishing grades doesn't mean that they are the authority on player performance. "Because PFF says so" isn't legitimate analysis. 

 

And I don't say any of this to knock PFF. I like what they do. But I've disagreed with their grades at times, gone back to rewatch, and came away shaking my head, wondering what they're looking at. In general, I think their grades balance out, but you have a handful of guys watching and grading games, and there's going to be some bias and flawed analysis.

 

That's true of an NFL coaching staff, also. None of us have any problem saying "I don't know what the coaches are doing, they should bench X and start Y." But dare to disagree with PFF, and now you have to provide substantiated alternative analysis, along with references, a resume, and two forms of ID. 

 

As for specific analysis of the Colts offensive line, you may or may not be familiar with Ben Gundy. I think his detailed write-ups and analysis are much more meaningful than PFF's grades. Doesn't mean I always agree with him, but it's way more intensive than just +/- grades that get aggregated over the course of a season.

 

Also, Shipley and Harrison at their worst are still far better than Satele was last season. Ironically, Satele is playing well for the Dolphins, but our line play is much improved, even with the inconsistencies we've been experiencing lately.

 

The coaches do not tell fans why, just who.  When things don't go well, fans can only blame coaching / execution/ combination.  Either way, it then becomes a case of is there a guy on the squad that can do a better job.  Most fans (myself included) don't have the ability, resources, or time to evaluate talent.  So when something doesn't pass the smell test, they have to rely Pro football focus , or Football outsiders, etc... to see independent evaluation of players they could never make on their own.  Then they can see if they're on the right track, or the coaches really do know what they are doing.

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/article.php?article=bitolrank2014

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/10/08/offensive-line-rankings-2/

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/03/06/nfl-offensive-linemen-grades/

 

I've heard a very few ex players and office people admit in interviews that egos sometimes do get in the way of sound decisions at times.  And previous choices made can hold them hostage, notably personal selection and use.  Fans have always suspected this, but I think it happens a lot less than the casual fan believes.  But it does happen, but is a little hidden secret. Other times a better player gets demoted because of internal issues (insubordination, breaking team rules, etc...) and fans don't often know of this either. But they can still question a teams coaching decisions.  Coaches and GM's lose their jobs  for lack of performance.  They're in a better position to know, but once in a while don't make the correct choices.  Fans have a right to question them.  Doesn't make the fan right, but they may not be wrong either.  And coaches and teams rarely explain.  So outside sources of people dedicated to that type of grading is the only choice.  But the more the merrier IMHO.  Too bad there aren't that many reputable sites. Because everybody does miss at times.  Teams coaches, football sites, scouts, Mel Kiper and Todd McShay, Scouts Inc., etc... 

 

So not calling anybody out, but trying to make way in a very uncertain area.  I feel those who are not in agreement with coaching decisions and have researched at sites such as the few listed above have informed opinions that at least illustrate why their opinion was formed, and such cannot be dismissed out of hand by blanket statements like the coaches know better than you, or you're wrong, etc... Likely the coaches do, OTOH...  maybe not always.  Fortunately we have a  nice forum here to discuss such items. :thmup:

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If we would stop living in their shadow..... I wouldn't have to post so much. I give them the credit they deserve

Most colts fans have a vendetta against them or whatever they wanna call it, I don't. They're the better team, nothing wrong with admitting it and giving them credit especially given how well they're playing right now. Can't wait for their matchup against GB. Gonna be an offensive explosion!!!!!

:Nuke:

We who? I can freely admit that I wish Belichick didn't beat us down nearly every time the Colts and Pats have met in the past decade, but living in their shadow? If anything, Luck is living under Peyton's very long shadow. It'll take years for him to get out from under it.

And I wouldn't call it a vendetta; I'd call it a rivalry. It's football not the mafia, though I am well aware that for many it is just as serious.

I'm pleading with you, though: please stop with all the flying elvis iconography. It unsettles my apple juice.

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We who? I can freely admit that I wish Belichick didn't beat us down nearly every time the Colts and Pats have met in the past decade, but living in their shadow? If anything, Luck is living under Peyton's very long shadow. It'll take years for him to get out from under it.

And I wouldn't call it a vendetta; I'd call it a rivalry. It's football not the mafia, though I am well aware that for many it is just as serious.

I'm pleading with you, though: please stop with all the flying elvis iconography. It unsettles my apple juice.

You drink apple juice too???!!!! Oh, we have so much in common

:hug:

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Fortunately we have a  nice forum here to discuss such items. :thmup:

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying. I kind of feel like we're going in a different direction, though. A couple of thoughts:

So when something doesn't pass the smell test, they have to rely Pro football focus , or Football outsiders, etc... to see independent evaluation of players they could never make on their own.  Then they can see if they're on the right track, or the coaches really do know what they are doing.

Doesn't that suggest that PFF is the authority? If the casual fan who can't/doesn't re-watch games or pay attention to details thinks the coaches are wrong about something, and PFF says "yeah, Player X is better than Player Y," then that means the coaches are wrong? I don't mean to over-simplify, but I don't really agree with that reasoning.

 

PFF is the only site I know of that publishes individual player grades, game by game. Other sites do some breakdowns, but PFF deserves credit as being an exclusive outlet for the kind of grades that they publish. A site like FO might do individual grading, I don't think they publish them. FO does a lot of per unit grading, advanced and aggregate statistical analysis, etc. I don't think anyone else does what PFF does, and reportedly, player agents and even some teams make use of some of PFF's stuff. I don't mean to undermine them in any way, but I don't think they should be considered an authority. A resource? Absolutely.

 

I should note that I subscribe to PFF. I obviously see a lot of value in what they do.

That's an excellent article, and it speaks to a lot of the rest of your post, which I cut out. I agree with most of that.

 

But that's not really my beef. I know there's stuff going on behind the scenes that can't be accounted for, including egos and even blind spots by the coaching staff. I'm not arguing that, just because a coaching staff says so, that it's gospel. Like you said, some coaching staffs are terrible. Some front offices don't know what they're doing.

 

My argument is only against referring to PFF as the authority, especially when you haven't done any research or studying yourself. I re-watched every game Shipley started for us, and I have a much different opinion of his performance than PFF. That's all I'm really saying here. And just like team staffs can have blind spots, ego, bias, etc., PFF graders are human. In this particular case, their writers derided the Colts' decision to trade Shipley in 2013. Does that influence their grading of him now? Is it a "told you so" kind of situation? Regardless, I just don't think Shipley played as well as PFF thinks. I still think they are a valuable resource, especially to people like the majority of us who can't watch every game.

 

Another thing, PFF doesn't take into consideration team building and player development. I think it's pretty obvious that Harrison has more upside and potential than Shipley, despite not having as much professional skill and experience. So even if Shipley was better in the first four games, that doesn't mean it's necessarily the right call to continue starting him. I'd also say that Shipley didn't do a good job of picking up inside pressure or adjusting protections.

 

TL;DR, I'm not saying never second guess the coaching staff, PFF doesn't know what they're talking about. I'm just saying "PFF says Shipley is better" isn't legitimate analysis.

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I said before AQ lost the job that why would you fix something if it isn't broken, in regards to starting Holmes over Shipley.  Then somebody made the comment there is a bigger upside to starting Harrison in the long term.  I do agree when Harrison is 4 years pro, he will be a beast, but that's not the case right now.  I do think he needs experience, but it shouldn't come with the price of a faultering O Line!  We have way to many inexperienced players on the interior part, and that's a recipe for disaster.  Im not saying Shipley is great but we actually could somewhat run the ball when he was in and Andrew wasn't always running for his life.  This Harrison experiment has failed just like it was when they thought Holmes was the guy of the future.  I do believe one of those two guys should be crowned, but in no way are either of them ready to handle the pressure right now.  That is why we brought in AQ wasn't it.  Holmes was a no go, and they wanted someone who could step in and do a satisfactory job.  

 

Is the coaching staff more interested in developing Harrison, even if it means we aren't as good?  The way I see it, the Colts have this year and next for a great opportunity at a SB, and neither of those Centers will be playing at a high level until after next season.  Not saying they wont be in contention the following year, because they will, however they will more than likely lose quite a few pieces to the puzzle after next season.  I don't think playing an inexperienced player now will outweigh the benefits of it in the future, compared to what they could have if the coaching staff was committed to having the best possible O Line today!

 

I do admit, when Harrison first started I was on board and pleased with the result, but now as the season progresses I see his liabilities.  Yes, there is more upside with the younger guy, but that is coming at a costly expense given what we could have.  A measely 1 yard extra per carry for our RB's and another second in the pocket could be the difference.  I know it sounds minor, but I think the effect would be substantial.

let the young line get experience when we have a game in hand., not when we need a game dominated

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Someone thinks you are a Pats fan?

 

If they didn't like him he would be cut, and he wouldn't have seen the field yesterday. I don't agree with him being on the bench, but the coaching staff has some bizarre reason to keep him on the bench.

Maybe he flunked a pi$$ test....who knows?

 

Sooner or later they'll probably say something.

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Why they replaced Shipley in the first place is beyond me.  Maybe the coaching staff is going for a feel-good story?  Undrafted guy comes in and becomes the starting center for the best offense in the league, overtaking a spot held by a veteran player and now protecting the league's best young QB....that's what happens when you [insert Pagano-isms here]

 

Acceptable Pagano-isms:

-Work your tail/butt/behind off

-Just keep grinding

-Are a warrior/tough as nails

-Have a lot of heart

-Play 60 minutes

 

"Just stick to the process..."

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Amen! I have no clue why Shipley is not starting at center. I also would like to know why Khaled Holmes is not getting a look at guard. 

 

Hugh Thornton does not appear to be the long term answer at right guard. Between Xavier Nixon, AQ Shipley, and Khaled Holmes, there has to be someone that can play better. 

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Amen! I have no clue why Shipley is not starting at center. I also would like to know why Khaled Holmes is not getting a look at guard. 

 

Hugh Thornton does not appear to be the long term answer at right guard. Between Xavier Nixon, AQ Shipley, and Khaled Holmes, there has to be someone that can play better. 

 

I want to know who actively watched these particular guys and thought that they were the answer to our O-Line problems. It seems as if none of our drafted o-linemen can play consistant except for maybe Castanzo.

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I want to know who actively watched these particular guys and thought that they were the answer to our O-Line problems. It seems as if none of our drafted o-linemen can play consistant except for maybe Castanzo.

 

Castanzo was a Polian draft pick. Mewhort looks good, but Thornton has been awful since drafted and Holmes has hardly even touched the field.

 

My issue with the Holmes pick was that prior to the draft there were questions about his ankles. I read that his ankle issue that stemmed from college could derail his NFL career. Somehow we viewed him as a 4th round talent and reached to take him. 

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Castanzo was a Polian draft pick. Mewhort looks good, but Thornton has been awful since drafted and Holmes has hardly even touched the field.

 

My issue with the Holmes pick was that prior to the draft there were questions about his ankles. I read that his ankle issue that stemmed from college could derail his NFL career. Somehow we viewed him as a 4th round talent and reached to take him. 

 

I agree. Maybe we thought he was going to be drafted sooner but with ankle problems he fell to the 4th and Grigs "had to grab him". Castonzo and Mewhort look good and Cherilus has been good but shaky this season. We had something great going earlier in the season, now it is changed... Why change what wasn't broke?

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I agree. Maybe we thought he was going to be drafted sooner but with ankle problems he fell to the 4th and Grigs "had to grab him". Castonzo and Mewhort look good and Cherilus has been good but shaky this season. We had something great going earlier in the season, now it is changed... Why change what wasn't broke?

 

The benching of Shipley is an absolute mystery. I have no clue what they see in Harrison or what the problem was with Shipley that led to the change. 

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I don't disagree with most of what you're saying. I kind of feel like we're going in a different direction, though. A couple of thoughts:

Doesn't that suggest that PFF is the authority? If the casual fan who can't/doesn't re-watch games or pay attention to details thinks the coaches are wrong about something, and PFF says "yeah, Player X is better than Player Y," then that means the coaches are wrong? I don't mean to over-simplify, but I don't really agree with that reasoning.

 

That's fine.  We;re probably closer than apart on most of these things.  OTOH, I feel that it mean a case for the coaches hasn't proven solid, and the investigation and questioning can continue to proceed. Now if the whole was proving greater than the sum of the parts, I don't think it would even be under discussion.  Folks would be happy if Luck wasn't getting sacked 5 times in a half, and not running for his life seemingly nearly every play (pass) because running and run blocking is nearly non-existant.

 

PFF is the only site I know of that publishes individual player grades, game by game. Other sites do some breakdowns, but PFF deserves credit as being an exclusive outlet for the kind of grades that they publish. A site like FO might do individual grading, I don't think they publish them. FO does a lot of per unit grading, advanced and aggregate statistical analysis, etc. I don't think anyone else does what PFF does, and reportedly, player agents and even some teams make use of some of PFF's stuff. I don't mean to undermine them in any way, but I don't think they should be considered an authority. A resource? Absolutely.

 

A resource that is used to try to leverage pay raises for a player by his agent is just as good a resource in determining his accomplishments, and compared to his peers.  Then it gives insight to their use- where, when, and how often?  Try to determine the objective- then assess whether the objective is met.  If not, is there another route to meeting the objective?  Having read these things, a fan might observe more closely next round. Then try to see from their own perspective. It's all good.

 

I should note that I subscribe to PFF. I obviously see a lot of value in what they do.

That's an excellent article, and it speaks to a lot of the rest of your post, which I cut out. I agree with most of that.

 

But that's not really my beef. I know there's stuff going on behind the scenes that can't be accounted for, including egos and even blind spots by the coaching staff. I'm not arguing that, just because a coaching staff says so, that it's gospel. Like you said, some coaching staffs are terrible. Some front offices don't know what they're doing.

 

My argument is only against referring to PFF as the authority, especially when you haven't done any research or studying yourself. I re-watched every game Shipley started for us, and I have a much different opinion of his performance than PFF. That's all I'm really saying here. And just like team staffs can have blind spots, ego, bias, etc., PFF graders are human. In this particular case, their writers derided the Colts' decision to trade Shipley in 2013. Does that influence their grading of him now? Is it a "told you so" kind of situation? Regardless, I just don't think Shipley played as well as PFF thinks. I still think they are a valuable resource, especially to people like the majority of us who can't watch every game.

 

That might true, we're all biased in some way as well.  OTOH, do you not think it could easily be just as possible the staff saw their deficiency on the O line earl and had to eat some crow to get A.Q. back to plug the hole in the *. Then when his replacement was almost as proficient as the fill in vet, replace the vet for basically no other reason than he's not 'their guy', and 'their guy' seems to be ready compete for the spot, so he gets it by default and we'll say it's because he shines in practice? It can and does happen.  Some folks here appear to be wondering if it may be true in this case. Personally, I don't think either is that good and one over the other won't convert a previous loss into a win. But to a fault, if one has performed any amount of research or work into their argument, I try to understand the angle.  Even if I don't (at least initially) agree.  A compelling argument just may sway me. Or not.  ;-)

 

Another thing, PFF doesn't take into consideration team building and player development. I think it's pretty obvious that Harrison has more upside and potential than Shipley, despite not having as much professional skill and experience. So even if Shipley was better in the first four games, that doesn't mean it's necessarily the right call to continue starting him. I'd also say that Shipley didn't do a good job of picking up inside pressure or adjusting protections.

 

Other teams have been able to take dismal O line performance early and develop them into stout run and pass blocking forces.  We have regressed somewhat.  We had a run game at one point, now we really don't.  Pep has been forced into Arians 2.0 playcalling and Luck once again pays the price in hits and sacks, along with forced errors.  Pep's schemes were supposed to dramatically eliminate much of that.  We were supposed to run the ball and stop the run when it counted.  We can't effectively perform either right now. Also know in my mind, our Run the Ball means to me, when we do run it, we are effective and can count on decent gains whenever we decide to go to it.  Not that we become a run dominant scheme and team.

 

TL;DR, I'm not saying never second guess the coaching staff, PFF doesn't know what they're talking about. I'm just saying "PFF says Shipley is better" isn't legitimate analysis.

 

I don't know if PFF says that or not.  I haven't followed it that close [ It's hair splitting IME, I've bigger fish to fry...  ;-)  ]  Even if they do, the fallacies of their (PFF) analysis need pointed out in order for a counter argument to attain notable credibility, IMO.  PFF may be hugely wrong, but 'showing  the work' in counter argument raises the bar well above just objection. Many won't take what PFF says, ans evaluate that, I agree. But as you point out, there aren't any other sites that do that so hard to find online counter arguments.  So individuals will have to supply the counter, or coaches become more transparent. 

 

My feelings are I'm disappointed in the Holmes situation, and that the O line they continue to try to piece together falls further and further behind the progress of many other teams O lines.  and I don't know of the fix (I don't think Shipley is, but many others do).

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The coaches do not tell fans why, just who.  When things don't go well, fans can only blame coaching / execution/ combination.  Either way, it then becomes a case of is there a guy on the squad that can do a better job.  Most fans (myself included) don't have the ability, resources, or time to evaluate talent.  So when something doesn't pass the smell test, they have to rely Pro football focus , or Football outsiders, etc... to see independent evaluation of players they could never make on their own.  Then they can see if they're on the right track, or the coaches really do know what they are doing.

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/article.php?article=bitolrank2014

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/10/08/offensive-line-rankings-2/

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/03/06/nfl-offensive-linemen-grades/

 

I've heard a very few ex players and office people admit in interviews that egos sometimes do get in the way of sound decisions at times.  And previous choices made can hold them hostage, notably personal selection and use.  Fans have always suspected this, but I think it happens a lot less than the casual fan believes.  But it does happen, but is a little hidden secret. Other times a better player gets demoted because of internal issues (insubordination, breaking team rules, etc...) and fans don't often know of this either. But they can still question a teams coaching decisions.  Coaches and GM's lose their jobs  for lack of performance.  They're in a better position to know, but once in a while don't make the correct choices.  Fans have a right to question them.  Doesn't make the fan right, but they may not be wrong either.  And coaches and teams rarely explain.  So outside sources of people dedicated to that type of grading is the only choice.  But the more the merrier IMHO.  Too bad there aren't that many reputable sites. Because everybody does miss at times.  Teams coaches, football sites, scouts, Mel Kiper and Todd McShay, Scouts Inc., etc... 

 

So not calling anybody out, but trying to make way in a very uncertain area.  I feel those who are not in agreement with coaching decisions and have researched at sites such as the few listed above have informed opinions that at least illustrate why their opinion was formed, and such cannot be dismissed out of hand by blanket statements like the coaches know better than you, or you're wrong, etc... Likely the coaches do, OTOH...  maybe not always.  Fortunately we have a  nice forum here to discuss such items. :thmup:

An opposing, credible view on Shipley comes from former nfl coach rick ventur.....who doesn't get fan's fascination with Shipley at all. Says AQ has never been more than just a guy and believes Harrison is the right way to go.

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My feelings are I'm disappointed in the Holmes situation, and that the O line they continue to try to piece together falls further and further behind the progress of many other teams O lines.  and I don't know of the fix (I don't think Shipley is, but many others do).

 

I think we understand each other on PFF. I think they're good, but I don't think they're gospel.

 

Specific to Shipley and the coaches' evaluation, it could be that they don't like Shipley and want to go with "their guy," but then what happened to Holmes? "Khaled's our center." That was May, after the draft, and didn't change until he got hurt. It's been three months, and he hasn't dressed. If the staff was about being stubborn and going with "their guy," I think Holmes would at least get a game jersey at some point. There's a lot of evidence that, in my opinion, suggests that the staff is being fair in their evaluations. I think if they're playing Harrison, it's because they believe he's the right guy, not just "their guy." Of course, there could still be blinders and bias there...

 

As for our line play this year, I don't think we've regressed. I think we've played better defenses, and the game situations have determined how much running we're going to do. But in our last five games, the only game where the run game simply didn't work was the Pats game. The run game was really good against the Bengals, it didn't get tried against the Steelers, it was efficient against the Giants, but that was a weird game where we hardly ran for some reason, then the Pats shut it down, but it was back to good against the Jags. 

 

Pass pro, yeah, there's been issues there, but I don't think any of that relates to who's playing center. You mentioned the Jags game, and I'm of the opinion that three of those five sacks were made worse by Luck making bad decisions and/or missing open receivers early in the play. That's a step that he needs to take to take some pressure off of his line, whether it's playing well or not. Still too much pressure in that game, but I firmly believe that better QBing is more critical than anything else.

 

It looks like Thornton, who has been disappointing this year, will be out for a little bit. Cherilus was playing bad, but had two decent games before missing the Jags game. If he comes back this week, and we use Reitz or preferably Nixon at RG, I think life is easier for whoever plays center, and definitely easier for Luck. 

 

Overall, the staff has chosen to try to develop some young players on the offensive line, rather than plug in vets. Long term, probably the right thing, but these growing pains are part of the process. If the young guys develop, that strategy will pay off well. Mewhort looks like a stud. He's had some bad games, but he's only given up 14 pressures in 432 pass pro chances. That's pretty good for a rookie, and it's possible that he's still nursing injuries from the offseason and preseason. Harrison and Thornton's issues are mostly technical, IMO. If neither of them can get it done, we still have veteran backups. And Holmes is technically still on the roster (I'm thoroughly confused by the situation). I don't think the line is beyond hope.

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I think we understand each other on PFF. I think they're good, but I don't think they're gospel.

Specific to Shipley and the coaches' evaluation, it could be that they don't like Shipley and want to go with "their guy," but then what happened to Holmes? "Khaled's our center." That was May, after the draft, and didn't change until he got hurt. It's been three months, and he hasn't dressed. If the staff was about being stubborn and going with "their guy," I think Holmes would at least get a game jersey at some point. There's a lot of evidence that, in my opinion, suggests that the staff is being fair in their evaluations. I think if they're playing Harrison, it's because they believe he's the right guy, not just "their guy." Of course, there could still be blinders and bias there...

As for our line play this year, I don't think we've regressed. I think we've played better defenses, and the game situations have determined how much running we're going to do. But in our last five games, the only game where the run game simply didn't work was the Pats game. The run game was really good against the Bengals, it didn't get tried against the Steelers, it was efficient against the Giants, but that was a weird game where we hardly ran for some reason, then the Pats shut it down, but it was back to good against the Jags.

Pass pro, yeah, there's been issues there, but I don't think any of that relates to who's playing center. You mentioned the Jags game, and I'm of the opinion that three of those five sacks were made worse by Luck making bad decisions and/or missing open receivers early in the play. That's a step that he needs to take to take some pressure off of his line, whether it's playing well or not. Still too much pressure in that game, but I firmly believe that better QBing is more critical than anything else.

It looks like Thornton, who has been disappointing this year, will be out for a little bit. Cherilus was playing bad, but had two decent games before missing the Jags game. If he comes back this week, and we use Reitz or preferably Nixon at RG, I think life is easier for whoever plays center, and definitely easier for Luck.

Overall, the staff has chosen to try to develop some young players on the offensive line, rather than plug in vets. Long term, probably the right thing, but these growing pains are part of the process. If the young guys develop, that strategy will pay off well. Mewhort looks like a stud. He's had some bad games, but he's only given up 14 pressures in 432 pass pro chances. That's pretty good for a rookie, and it's possible that he's still nursing injuries from the offseason and preseason. Harrison and Thornton's issues are mostly technical, IMO. If neither of them can get it done, we still have veteran backups. And Holmes is technically still on the roster (I'm thoroughly confused by the situation). I don't think the line is beyond hope.

why would Nixon at rg help the center?

Harrison rarely helps the right side. He is usually helping mewhort

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An opposing, credible view on Shipley comes from former nfl coach rick ventur.....who doesn't get fan's fascination with Shipley at all. Says AQ has never been more than just a guy and believes Harrison is the right way to go.

 

There we go. Hopefully it is a podcast, or an interview archived.  Is there a link to it? Does he go into any detail why, or just throwing his educated opinion out there?  Be nice if he tossed a few good reasons to back it and thus fans would focus on the many other items that need cleaning up as we make the playoff push. 

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I think we understand each other on PFF. I think they're good, but I don't think they're gospel.

 

Specific to Shipley and the coaches' evaluation, it could be that they don't like Shipley and want to go with "their guy," but then what happened to Holmes? "Khaled's our center." That was May, after the draft, and didn't change until he got hurt. It's been three months, and he hasn't dressed. If the staff was about being stubborn and going with "their guy," I think Holmes would at least get a game jersey at some point. There's a lot of evidence that, in my opinion, suggests that the staff is being fair in their evaluations. I think if they're playing Harrison, it's because they believe he's the right guy, not just "their guy." Of course, there could still be blinders and bias there...

 

As for our line play this year, I don't think we've regressed. I think we've played better defenses, and the game situations have determined how much running we're going to do. But in our last five games, the only game where the run game simply didn't work was the Pats game. The run game was really good against the Bengals, it didn't get tried against the Steelers, it was efficient against the Giants, but that was a weird game where we hardly ran for some reason, then the Pats shut it down, but it was back to good against the Jags. 

 

Pass pro, yeah, there's been issues there, but I don't think any of that relates to who's playing center. You mentioned the Jags game, and I'm of the opinion that three of those five sacks were made worse by Luck making bad decisions and/or missing open receivers early in the play. That's a step that he needs to take to take some pressure off of his line, whether it's playing well or not. Still too much pressure in that game, but I firmly believe that better QBing is more critical than anything else.

 

It looks like Thornton, who has been disappointing this year, will be out for a little bit. Cherilus was playing bad, but had two decent games before missing the Jags game. If he comes back this week, and we use Reitz or preferably Nixon at RG, I think life is easier for whoever plays center, and definitely easier for Luck. 

 

Overall, the staff has chosen to try to develop some young players on the offensive line, rather than plug in vets. Long term, probably the right thing, but these growing pains are part of the process. If the young guys develop, that strategy will pay off well. Mewhort looks like a stud. He's had some bad games, but he's only given up 14 pressures in 432 pass pro chances. That's pretty good for a rookie, and it's possible that he's still nursing injuries from the offseason and preseason. Harrison and Thornton's issues are mostly technical, IMO. If neither of them can get it done, we still have veteran backups. And Holmes is technically still on the roster (I'm thoroughly confused by the situation). I don't think the line is beyond hope.

This is a solid primer - fair and balanced - about the O-line situation and takes into account the progress that was clearly exhibited during the first half of the season.  Your points about the QB's involvement are particularly insightful as well.  

 

To those that think there is some big problem to solve on the O-line with grand sweeping moves to be made: Let's consider that our 3 interior starters go Rookie, Rookie, Year 2(nicked up).  Added to the mix is poor performing and injured RT.  It is standard procedure for us fans to live in the moment - no surprise that we'd call for change based on recent output, but we have good players, and they will be given more time to mature no matter the call of the fans for change.  

 

Staying the course is the only economically viable path to the quality of O-line play we seek.

 

At full strength, we thought this was a group we could enjoy watching, and they are clearly worth the investment in the future.

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There we go. Hopefully it is a podcast, or an interview archived.  Is there a link to it? Does he go into any detail why, or just throwing his educated opinion out there?  Be nice if he tossed a few good reasons to back it and thus fans would focus on the many other items that need cleaning up as we make the playoff push. 

 

Here's a small tidbit from Kravitz:

 

"I am inclined to defer to people who know the game better than I do, namely Ryan Grigson, who was himself an offensive lineman, and former coach Rick Venturi, who's gone on record as saying Harrison is the better center."

 

http://www.wthr.com/story/27186878/2014/11/02/kravitz-unhappy-shipley-still-waiting-his-turn

 

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Here's a small tidbit from Kravitz:

 

"I am inclined to defer to people who know the game better than I do, namely Ryan Grigson, who was himself an offensive lineman, and former coach Rick Venturi, who's gone on record as saying Harrison is the better center."

 

 

http://www.wthr.com/story/27186878/2014/11/02/kravitz-unhappy-shipley-still-waiting-his-turn

 

 

Interesting how much light Grigson shines on the Holmes situation that we've all been confused by this year....doesn't look very confusing at all when you put it into this context by Grigson:

 

“I think it's a culmination of things. You look at how it even transpired. Khaled (Holmes) is doing a great job, gets hurt. He has nine snaps to go off of in terms of his evaluation. You have practice but the games are obviously the bulk of what you go off of. If he gets another opportunity, I'm sure he'll do well. But he's got to stay out of the training room. I've told him that. That's just the bottom line. A.Q. (Shipley) came in and played quality snaps for us. We're up-front with these guys. Ultimately, it's up to them. Like I said, the performance level, we're always trying to get to a championship level, a winning level. That's what we're aspiring to. It's not because we're heartless or cold, it's just the expectation. If you're going to be a part of the train, you've got to hop on and keep playing that way.”

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Here's a small tidbit from Kravitz:

 

"I am inclined to defer to people who know the game better than I do, namely Ryan Grigson, who was himself an offensive lineman, and former coach Rick Venturi, who's gone on record as saying Harrison is the better center."

 

 

http://www.wthr.com/story/27186878/2014/11/02/kravitz-unhappy-shipley-still-waiting-his-turn

 

 

 

 

but then He goes on to say-  "But, then, Grigson wanted us to buy lock, stock and barrel into Khaled Holmes this preseason, even got a bit defensive about the line of questioning when asked a few months ago"  and "I don't get it. And neither does Shipley."

 

Interesting how much light Grigson shines on the Holmes situation that we've all been confused by this year....doesn't look very confusing at all when you put it into this context by Grigson:

 

“I think it's a culmination of things. You look at how it even transpired. Khaled (Holmes) is doing a great job, gets hurt. He has nine snaps to go off of in terms of his evaluation. You have practice but the games are obviously the bulk of what you go off of. If he gets another opportunity, I'm sure he'll do well. But he's got to stay out of the training room. I've told him that. That's just the bottom line. A.Q. (Shipley) came in and played quality snaps for us. We're up-front with these guys. Ultimately, it's up to them. Like I said, the performance level, we're always trying to get to a championship level, a winning level. That's what we're aspiring to. It's not because we're heartless or cold, it's just the expectation. If you're going to be a part of the train, you've got to hop on and keep playing that way.”

 

So Grigson is saying, to me in a way, he doesn't care about typical football culture or sticking to his (earlier) guns.  Starting guy that got injured lost their starting job.  In order to get it back, you get evaluated in game day situations.  But you can't get game day snaps, or reps with the #1's in practice until the other guys that jumped you get hurt.  Then prove yourself again. I'm probably reading him wrong, but that's what I read here. Now if Holmes is still hurt, then say so.  OTOH, isn't it mandatory to report that to the league office in a weekly injury report?

 

Sure Grigson is always changing things and looking to improve, almost to a fault.  I fear players may see this and be less likely to stay here, or come here; fearing they could be jettisoned from the Championship Train in a seconds notice by way of their own injury bug. OK, some will point to Tom Brady taking Drew Bledsoes starting QB spot afte Bledsoe got hurt.  True.  Then again, Harrison is not the Tom Brady of centers, either.

 

Now I need to point out I'm not a Shipley supporter, but I can see the angle they are coming from.  Shipley didn't get hurt or play atrociously  in his starts. But he was replaced by Harrison.  Question is why?  Harrison had no game days resume`, Shipley wasn't hurt (that I know of).  To me, as in player production possibilities, it's 6 one way, a half dozen the other.  The who is immaterial, but the why is puzzling, and borderline troubling IMO.

 

Some reported PFF rates Shipley above Harrison.  I haven't seen or read those article(s), but I do have this quote from PFF (comparing to last year and Satele in particular)  -

 

"The team is getting better play at center (even after bizarrely benching A.Q. Shipley)"

 

So it appears that report is likely true.  But PFF can only grade on what they know and see.  And while they may be good and fair about that part, there are things that the coaches expect from an assignment that can be unknown to us and PFF.  Those might weigh heavily in internal grades and thus we will never really know.  It could also be some bias is involved (Shipley was sent packing, then hurriedly brought back in to plug the leaks until Holmes or Harrison was ready to be serviceable out there.) as Shipley isn't really this regimes guy. And his level and ceiling is known, guaranteed average at best. I get that.

 

While Harrison has made errors, I don't think any was game losing (unless you count stepping on Andrew Luck's foot in Pittsburgh and helping put a dagger in our comeback chances with the well known Buttt Safety. So I see the long range development angle too.  Future wise investment.

 

But for this year, the 'gelling' of our line really hasn't happened.  As it becomes playoff season, getting healthy and having a gelled and dominant O and D line is imperative to making noise in the playoffs.  I see we have a big uphill battle in this area, and no real solution viable; including insertion of Shipley.  I hope I'm wrong. Or, they can get healthy fast and get good at working together quickly.  Still time for that, especially for those glass half full fans. 

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So Grigson is saying, to me in a way, he doesn't care about typical football culture or sticking to his (earlier) guns.  Starting guy that got injured lost their starting job.  In order to get it back, you get evaluated in game day situations.  But you can't get game day snaps, or reps with the #1's in practice until the other guys that jumped you get hurt.  Then prove yourself again. I'm probably reading him wrong, but that's what I read here. Now if Holmes is still hurt, then say so.  OTOH, isn't it mandatory to report that to the league office in a weekly injury report?

 

Sure Grigson is always changing things and looking to improve, almost to a fault.  I fear players may see this and be less likely to stay here, or come here; fearing they could be jettisoned from the Championship Train in a seconds notice by way of their own injury bug. OK, some will point to Tom Brady taking Drew Bledsoes starting QB spot afte Bledsoe got hurt.  True.  Then again, Harrison is not the Tom Brady of centers, either.

 

Now I need to point out I'm not a Shipley supporter, but I can see the angle they are coming from.  Shipley didn't get hurt or play atrociously  in his starts. But he was replaced by Harrison.  Question is why?  Harrison had no game days resume`, Shipley wasn't hurt (that I know of).  To me, as in player production possibilities, it's 6 one way, a half dozen the other.  The who is immaterial, but the why is puzzling, and borderline troubling IMO.

 

Some reported PFF rates Shipley above Harrison.  I haven't seen or read those article(s), but I do have this quote from PFF (comparing to last year and Satele in particular)  -

 

"The team is getting better play at center (even after bizarrely benching A.Q. Shipley)"

 

So it appears that report is likely true.  But PFF can only grade on what they know and see.  And while they may be good and fair about that part, there are things that the coaches expect from an assignment that can be unknown to us and PFF.  Those might weigh heavily in internal grades and thus we will never really know.  It could also be some bias is involved (Shipley was sent packing, then hurriedly brought back in to plug the leaks until Holmes or Harrison was ready to be serviceable out there.) as Shipley isn't really this regimes guy. And his level and ceiling is known, guaranteed average at best. I get that.

 

While Harrison has made errors, I don't think any was game losing (unless you count stepping on Andrew Luck's foot in Pittsburgh and helping put a dagger in our comeback chances with the well known Buttt Safety. So I see the long range development angle too.  Future wise investment.

 

But for this year, the 'gelling' of our line really hasn't happened.  As it becomes playoff season, getting healthy and having a gelled and dominant O and D line is imperative to making noise in the playoffs.  I see we have a big uphill battle in this area, and no real solution viable; including insertion of Shipley.  I hope I'm wrong. Or, they can get healthy fast and get good at working together quickly.  Still time for that, especially for those glass half full fans. 

You have some good perspective here, and you are all around the target, but you're still making it way too complicated based on what we can see and what Grigson has now said.  The words aren't enough, but actions and words together make the story simple:

 

Grigs/Pags to Shipley - "We love you and appreciate your service.  Thanks for helping us thru a tough spot.  Keep trying hard in this league and you'll piece together a living, but none of us, or even you, believe you are a starter in this league."

 

Grigs/Pags to Holmes - "We believe in your talent.  You didn't lose your job because a 300# man landed on your ankle...you lost your job and your gameday jersey because you haven't figured out how to be available and productive when your body isn't 100% healthy.  You needed to be ready to lead this line on week 1...or at least by week 3.  We saw you running around in that ice bucket video.  NFL linemen are rarely healthy once the season starts.  Figure it out.  We'll keep you around a little longer and hope that you do."

 

Grigs/Pags to Harrison - "We like you as well as the other guy, and really like your attitude.  Stay hungry, get better, and do all the little things that a center does to lead a group of men and you might just have a job for the next 10 years."

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You have some good perspective here, and you are all around the target, but you're still making it way too complicated based on what we can see and what Grigson has now said.  The words aren't enough, but actions and words together make the story simple:

 

Grigs/Pags to Shipley - "We love you and appreciate your service.  Thanks for helping us thru a tough spot.  Keep trying hard in this league and you'll piece together a living, but none of us, or even you, believe you are a starter in this league."

 

OK, fair enough and straight from the hip. But this is the type of stance I believe will keep other from coming over in the future.  Players want to play.  Now If Grigs said we want you back ...  but only until we feel Harrison has advanced to the point of almost being as good as you, then he will take over., then fine.  Shipley's confusion over the situation belies that conversation happened.  i don't think it is good policy, but it's Grigs show.. But what statement does it send to others?  I found the numbers and PFF grades Shipley much higher.  Conventional stats are close, but even they lean toward Shipley too.

 

Grigs/Pags to Holmes - "We believe in your talent.  You didn't lose your job because a 300# man landed on your ankle...you lost your job and your gameday jersey because you haven't figured out how to be available and productive when your body isn't 100% healthy.  You needed to be ready to lead this line on week 1...or at least by week 3.  We saw you running around in that ice bucket video.  NFL linemen are rarely healthy once the season starts.  Figure it out.  We'll keep you around a little longer and hope that you do."

 

Ok, sounds like cut material in short order if that is indeed the case...

 

Grigs/Pags to Harrison - "We like you as well as the other guy, and really like your attitude.  Stay hungry, get better, and do all the little things that a center does to lead a group of men and you might just have a job for the next 10 years."

 

Or don't screw up with this huge chance I gave you. You could be next in line behind Satele, Shipley, and Holmes...     ;-) 

 

I found a Stampede Blue article re-examining this very situation.  They cover every angle available to us fans.  At the end, it is close but they feel Shipley still should have the starting job. 

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2014/11/20/7255583/re-examining-whether-starting-jonotthan-harrison-is-the-right-move

 

The PFF grades below-

PFF_center_grades_zps77946019.png

 

The fan poll is markedly in favor of Shipley (and even Holmes!!)  The large margins surprised me! -

 

Center_Poll_zps389f7095.png

 

There's nothing concrete supporting the Grigson/Pagano story here, except faith and trust in their knowledge of internal secrets.  That is why the Shipley supporters continue to ask why.  And vote in polls as above.

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There we go. Hopefully it is a podcast, or an interview archived.  Is there a link to it? Does he go into any detail why, or just throwing his educated opinion out there?  Be nice if he tossed a few good reasons to back it and thus fans would focus on the many other items that need cleaning up as we make the playoff push.

They used to have the segments on iTunes, but I don't think they are available any longer. I think you can listen to his segments here

http://www.1070thefan.com

Venturi is on all three shows once a week.

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I found a Stampede Blue article re-examining this very situation.  They cover every angle available to us fans.  At the end, it is close but they feel Shipley still should have the starting job. 

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2014/11/20/7255583/re-examining-whether-starting-jonotthan-harrison-is-the-right-move

 

The PFF grades below-

PFF_center_grades_zps77946019.png

 

The fan poll is markedly in favor of Shipley (and even Holmes!!)  The large margins surprised me! -

 

Center_Poll_zps389f7095.png

 

There's nothing concrete supporting the Grigson/Pagano story here, except faith and trust in their knowledge of internal secrets.  That is why the Shipley supporters continue to ask why.  And vote in polls as above.

Stay in the "angles" and stay in confusion.  Include a behavioral translation and it looks pretty simple.

 

Players that might potentially join the Colts only care about this if they are personal friends with AQ Shipley.  AQ Shipley may be a little bit confused, because he gave his all and played competently, but he still should keep his mouth shut and see the big picture.

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