Why the hate on Whalen?

[camcolts2621]

I've noticed in the chat rooms on Gameday that everyone is dissing Griff Whalen on his return abilities... If you ask me...

Whalen is not only a solid returner (both punt and kick off), but he is there whenever you need him if someone (like Reggie Wayne) gets hurt. He's Mr. reliable in my opinion. Think of another guy that you would want to return.....Think about it. That other guy is going to be there for just those things (KR & PR). When you have a guy like Whalen, you have a guy that is reliable and that can step up at any time. He's also fifth in the league in KR yards... not bad for a guy that most consider "slow" 

 

Just from what i've seen in the last 7 games... yeah there's that one fumble, but he made it up the following week and you could tell he was much improved. In my opinion, we keep him there, he's going to break one soon, I can sense it.

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

Probably due to his recent woes.

[camcolts2621]

Probably due to his recent woes.

Is it just because of those two plays against the Ravens (i.e the fumble and the deep return off the kickoff)? 

[fatboy]

Aside from fumble, he has been a decent return guy. However he doesn't seem to have the elusiveness or speed to break big returns, making a Returner an area of possible improvement.

[ruksak]

He's solid. He's reliable, as return men go. He has also flashed a few great returns that were called back, either due to penalty, or his knee grazing the ground while spinning away. He made a few bad judgements several weeks ago, but seemed to respond to the errors well. 

 

Here's the facts;

 

Whalen has only had 8 returns. 

 

His average KO Return (27.6) would be ranked about #5 among players with 8 or more returns. 

 

Only 1 player has a kickoff return for a TD in 2014 that I'm aware of (C.J. Spiller). 

 

Only 4 players have punt returns for a TD in 2014. 

 

Whalen has the most punt returns (20) in 2014 with a low average of only 6.7. This is a testament to our defense forcing punts (league high btw), as well as a poor reflection on our punt return blocking. This is reflected dually by his high amount of fair catches (14). 

 

The numbers reflect a great Colts defense, solid kickoff returning by Whalen and poor punt return squad performance. 

 

He'll bust one before the years out, I betcha. 

 

References;

NFL Punt

NFL Kickoff

[Smash Mouth]

I like the role that Whalen plays for now.  I would like to see the Colts upgrade and get a return guy that is more dynamic.  The reality is that there are just a few guys that can take it to the house.  But having a guy who is reliable and sure-handed is more important.  He had one bad game against the Ravens where he tried to do too much.  Fortunately he's smart and coachable and made the adjustments.

 

I don't have much love for him as a WR.  But he's the 5th WR and I can't expect a lot from the role.

[chrisfarley]

he carries the ball and just acts like he's an accident waiting to happen.  I'm really not convinced of that but it's a perception thing.  Just looks a bit reckless and, at times, slow for some reason.

[Indygal1218]

I think the problem is that he's solid but not spectacular. People are looking for highlight reel type of returns and he's not that type of player.

[Chucklez]

Aside from fumble, he has been a decent return guy. However he doesn't seem to have the elusiveness or speed to break big returns, making a Returner an area of possible improvement.

I disagree, I think he is elusive and makes guys miss, but he just never gets the necessary time to be able to pull off a big return. As soon as he catches that ball the kicking team are already on top of him.

Our punting and kickoff units are second almost to no one in terms of kicking away, but in terms of receiving punts and kickoffs we could definitely improve on the blocking upfield and delaying of their gunners getting to Whalen before he catches the ball.

[Chucklez]

He's solid. He's reliable, as return men go. He has also flashed a few great returns that were called back, either due to penalty, or his knee grazing the ground while spinning away. He made a few bad judgements several weeks ago, but seemed to respond to the errors well. 

 

Here's the facts;

 

Whalen has only had 8 returns. 

 

His average KO Return (27.6) would be ranked about #5 among players with 8 or more returns. 

 

Only 1 player has a kickoff return for a TD in 2014 that I'm aware of (C.J. Spiller). 

 

Only 4 players have punt returns for a TD in 2014. 

 

Whalen has the most punt returns (20) in 2014 with a low average of only 6.7. This is a testament to our defense forcing punts (league high btw), as well as a poor reflection on our punt return blocking. This is reflected dually by his high amount of fair catches (14). 

 

The numbers reflect a great Colts defense, solid kickoff returning by Whalen and poor punt return squad performance. 

 

He'll bust one before the years out, I betcha. 

 

References;

NFL Punt

NFL Kickoff

^ This is what I was trying to say.

[Smonroe]

I've noticed in the chat rooms on Gameday that everyone is dissing Griff Whalen on his return abilities... If you ask me...

Whalen is not only a solid returner (both punt and kick off), but he is there whenever you need him if someone (like Reggie Wayne) gets hurt. He's Mr. reliable in my opinion. Think of another guy that you would want to return.....Think about it. That other guy is going to be there for just those things (KR & PR). When you have a guy like Whalen, you have a guy that is reliable and that can step up at any time. He's also fifth in the league in KR yards... not bad for a guy that most consider "slow" 

 

Just from what i've seen in the last 7 games... yeah there's that one fumble, but he made it up the following week and you could tell he was much improved. In my opinion, we keep him there, he's going to break one soon, I can sense it.

 

If he breaks one, it's going to be because of bad coverage and very good blocking.  He's not going to outrun anyone.

 

I like him, for all the reasons you said.  He's solid.  Besides the fumble, my only complaint about him is that he sometimes makes bad decisions. 

 

When you're averaging 27 yards on KO returns and you're only getting to the 22 yard line, then you're really not helping.  In those situations, we have more of a chance getting a penalty or getting someone hurt than we do of getting great field position.

[crazycolt1]

It seems like some pick the flavor of the week to rag on. One week it will be Fleener. Next it is TRich. Next it is Whalen. I cant understand why some must whine and complain about something every week. The is no perfect game or player. These players are not robots and this is not a game played on a X-Box or PS3. It blows my mind sometimes when I read the comments about players and coaches. What is it with this point the finger at somebody non stop?

[Smonroe]

It seems like some pick the flavor of the week to rag on. One week it will be Fleener. Next it is TRich. Next it is Whalen. I cant understand why some must whine and complain about something every week. The is no perfect game or player. These players are not robots and this is not a game played on a X-Box or PS3. It blows my mind sometimes when I read the comments about players and coaches. What is it with this point the finger at somebody non stop?

 

Well said. Remember when Walden was the whipping boy?  People wanted Grigs fired for wasting money on him.

 

Guys like Whalen are icing, they're a bonus.  The team is spending next to nothing on them, no draft pick, no trade, etc.  The fact that they can add anything should be applauded.

 

I don't think he's the greatest returner, but he may be the best one we've had in a lot of years.

[MTC]

Besides the one game (Baltimore I think), Griff has played well. A lot of decent returns.

[masterlock]

If he breaks one, it's going to be because of bad coverage and very good blocking.  He's not going to outrun anyone.

The same could be said for almost any other punt returner. It's not so much speed as it is quickness that matters when it comes to getting through that first wave of oncoming traffic. And in that regard, I think Whalen has the potential to break off a big one any time. But I don't think he's getting enough time.

 

I also think it's important, when talking about who's "fast" and who's not, to remember that usually it's little more than a difference of 3/10ths of a second, based on combine 40-yard dash times. Rarely does this difference in "speed" matter. Factors like quickness, blocking, vision and instincts probably account for 90 percent of big plays.

[House]

Because he's mediocre, and has shown poor decision making the last few games.

[Dustin]

Low floor, low ceiling.

[ruksak]

I think the problem is that he's solid but not spectacular. People are looking for highlight reel type of returns and he's not that type of player.

I'll add to that by saying; We have the #1 offense in the NFL. We don't need a guy to bail us out with Hester-esque quality returns. We just need a guy that doesn't fumble/muff or make poor decisions to run out from 7 yards deep. 

 

We just need a guy to set us at or beyond the 20 and let the real show begin. For the most part Whalen has done this, with only 1 game where he made some judgement errors. 

[ruksak]

Because he's mediocre, and has shown poor decision making the last few games.

Wrong. He's got one of the highest averages (KO returns) and he only had 1 bad game (2 returns errors). 

[Dustin]

Wrong. He's got one of the highest averages (KO returns)

So did David Reed.

[ruksak]

So did David Reed.

Elaborate please

[BrentMc11]

Reed was absolutely ignorant as a kick returner.  He would bring it out from the back and rarely make it to the 10 or 12.  OH...that IS a 20 yard return

 

We did not sign Holliday, so coach McMahon and Pags must like Griff's judgement.  That is all that matters.       

[pgt_rob]

So did David Reed.

 

Reed's average came out to about 24 yards on returns. His longest in a Colts uniform is apparently 39 yards.

[Smonroe]

The same could be said for almost any other punt returner. It's not so much speed as it is quickness that matters when it comes to getting through that first wave of oncoming traffic. And in that regard, I think Whalen has the potential to break off a big one any time. But I don't think he's getting enough time.

 

I also think it's important, when talking about who's "fast" and who's not, to remember that usually it's little more than a difference of 3/10ths of a second, based on combine 40-yard dash times. Rarely does this difference in "speed" matter. Factors like quickness, blocking, vision and instincts probably account for 90 percent of big plays.

 

I get you, elusiveness is more important than straight line speed.  But that 3/10ths of a second can be the difference between someone reaching an arm out and getting you or missing you.  I'm not doing the math, but it could equate to somewhere between 6 inches to a foot.

[Kamran98]

I really hope whalen will be involved as a receiver this week especially with wayne out. What do you guys think?

[Dustin]

Elaborate please

Reed was like 8th in KR average.

[Coffeedrinker]

I said this in another thread and I like the phrase and have used it on my own team.  When you have an offense that can score from anywhere on the field the possession is much more important than the position.

 

Yes, ideally Whalen would have the speed and elusiveness of a young Devin Hester, have the hands and reliability of a young Jerry Rice, have the tackle breaking ability of Earl Campbell in his prime and have the smarts and field awareness an aging Peyton Manning.  Since that player doesn't exist, I personally will take the trade off of smart, reliable and quick over big play/big flop potential of many returners in the game today.

[1959Colts]

I noticed in the Steelers vs Texans game, that the Steelers kicker did not kick the ball out of the endzone too often.

The kicks were returned out, but the Steelers did a good job of stuffing the returner deep inside the 20.

This weeks game may be a challenge for Whalen. Something to I'll be watching for.

[ruksak]

Reed was like 8th in KR average.

I was answering a post from House that Whalen is "mediocre". To the contrary, I believe Whalen's average shows otherwise, as he isn't prone to force a return when one is unadvisable (with the exception of a few goofs in 1 game). 

 

Reed's average has no bearing on Whalen and his performance. Griff has quicks, smarts and a high average. Reed and Whalen, mutually exclusive, and I think my first post in this thread covers that quite well. 

[BlueShoe]

Low floor, low ceiling.

 

That is the same thing that was said about Welker when he was in Miami his first couple of years. ;)

[House]

Wrong. He's got one of the highest averages (KO returns) and he only had 1 bad game (2 returns errors).

Clearly a situation where stats don't tell the whole story.

His ceiling is limited. But his MO is not making mistakes. Well he's had a game which he made two huge ones. And he has a tendency to run back kicks too deep in the end zone.

Thus people are mad. Maybe overboard in a manner, but it's hard to be happy about a high risk low reward player., when Griff is making questionable decisions.

[House]

I was answering a post from House that Whalen is "mediocre". To the contrary, I believe Whalen's average shows otherwise, as he isn't prone to force a return when one is unadvisable (with the exception of a few goofs in 1 game).

Reed's average has no bearing on Whalen and his performance. Griff has quicks, smarts and a high average. Reed and Whalen, mutually exclusive, and I think my first post in this thread covers that quite well.

Reed's average was Dustin's way of demonstrating stats not telling the whole story. But sure why not.

[BuckingColt]

Lately, his decision making has been suspect, and he's become a liability.

[ruksak]

 And he has a tendency to run back kicks too deep in the end zone.

 

Most (if not all) return men suffer from the same lack of judgement while executing their limited duties. It's their opportunity to shine, and all too often, they get too froggy. 

 

I feel Whalen has been superb in this regard, with the exception of a few goofs in 1 game. 

 

 

 

Reed's average was Dustin's way of demonstrating stats not telling the whole story. But sure why not. 

The difference I already highlighted. Reed was clumsy and careless, adding little bonus to this respectable average. 

[ruksak]

Lately, his decision making has been suspect, and he's become a liability.

Again, wrong. 1 game, 2 bad decisions. That's literally the only memory I have of him exercising poor judgement in 2014. 

 

Aside from 2 returns in the Balt game, he's been very smart and dependable. He gets the ball past the 20 and our offense gets it's turn without undue hardship by way of an id10t returner getting himself pounded inside the 10 yard line. 

[Buck Showalter]

Fans obsesdion with returners is funny...

Griffs a solid return guy, i hope he gets more targets as WR...

Fans saying hes suspect due to 2 plays is laughable...

[Dark_Indy]

The same could be said for almost any other punt returner. It's not so much speed as it is quickness that matters when it comes to getting through that first wave of oncoming traffic. And in that regard, I think Whalen has the potential to break off a big one any time. But I don't think he's getting enough time.

 

I also think it's important, when talking about who's "fast" and who's not, to remember that usually it's little more than a difference of 3/10ths of a second, based on combine 40-yard dash times. Rarely does this difference in "speed" matter. Factors like quickness, blocking, vision and instincts probably account for 90 percent of big plays.

 

Not really. Look at Patrick Peterson, Devin Hester, Ted Ginn, etc. These "return specialist" guys tend to have a lot more speed to their game. Not necessarily their footrace speed, but their decision making speed is MUCH faster than Whalen's.

 

 

Because he's mediocre, and has shown poor decision making the last few games.

 

Exactly. Especially that punt that he let bounce last week- why not just catch that at the 17ish yard line instead of letting it bounce down to the 4? 

I'll add to that by saying; We have the #1 offense in the NFL. We don't need a guy to bail us out with Hester-esque quality returns. We just need a guy that doesn't fumble/muff or make poor decisions to run out from 7 yards deep. 

 

We just need a guy to set us at or beyond the 20 and let the real show begin. For the most part Whalen has done this, with only 1 game where he made some judgement errors. 

 

Uh. I don't know about you, but it is absolutely backbreaking to the other team to have a kickoff run back for a TD. 

Why settle for a below average cog in the wheel when you could upgrade the position and not really spend that much more money to do it? If Demps can come up and return kicks, I'd be all for it. I had high hopes for Rainey, but then again- that fire extinguisher was just too tempting not to mess with.

[House]

Most (if not all) return men suffer from the same lack of judgement while executing their limited duties. It's their opportunity to shine, and all too often, they get too froggy.

I feel Whalen has been superb in this regard, with the exception of a few goofs in 1 game.

The difference I already highlighted. Reed was clumsy and careless, adding little bonus to this respectable average.

So because most return men make the same mistake means it shouldn't be a knock on your individual evaluation?

Even though he may statistically have one of the best averages in the league, absolutely no one would list him as one of the best. Just like Reed wasn't one of the best.

He's obviously not the pits of the world, but to act like he's playing great is overstating his production. He's average.

[BuckingColt]

Again, wrong. 1 game, 2 bad decisions. That's literally the only memory I have of him exercising poor judgement in 2014. 

 

Aside from 2 returns in the Balt game, he's been very smart and dependable. He gets the ball past the 20 and our offense gets it's turn without undue hardship by way of an id10t returner getting himself pounded inside the 10 yard line. 

 

He made a mistake in the Bengals game, but the exact mistake escapes my memory at the moment. Of course after the Baltimore game I find myself scrutinizing him more than ever.

[Coffeedrinker]

Not really. Look at Patrick Peterson, Devin Hester, Ted Ginn, etc. These "return specialist" guys tend to have a lot more speed to their game. Not necessarily their footrace speed, but their decision making speed is MUCH faster than Whalen's.

 

 

 

Exactly. Especially that punt that he let bounce last week- why not just catch that at the 17ish yard line instead of letting it bounce down to the 4? 

 

Uh. I don't know about you, but it is absolutely backbreaking to the other team to have a kickoff run back for a TD. 

Why settle for a below average cog in the wheel when you could upgrade the position and not really spend that much more money to do it? If Demps can come up and return kicks, I'd be all for it. I had high hopes for Rainey, but then again- that fire extinguisher was just too tempting not to mess with.

I must admit there is not much in this post that I agree with.

 

• Hester et al may be faster than Whalen but their decision making is not any faster.
• It's because the ball didn't hit at the 17ish yard line it hit at about the 10 yard line, that is not a punt that should be fielded.
• A return for a TD is not any more back breaking to a team than any other TD.  Look at the Colts SB win, Hester took the opening kickoff for a TD.  that did not quite break the back of the Colts in that game, as just one example.
• Whalen is not a below average cog.  He is an above average cog.  If a chance to upgrade the position happens then by all means the Colts should take it but an upgrade has to be in decision making and ball security not just speed.