Fire Pep

[SilentHill]

Personally I like Arians, but you are using the wrong argument. Palmer is out with an injury and Stanton got drilled several times yesterday.

 

 

what he said.....

 

 

He got sacked twice, I don't think it's that bad. Palmer's injury isn't from Arian's. He shouldn't have went shoulder first into a safety while trying to get a 1st down.

[Cynjin]

He got sacked twice, I don't think it's that bad. Palmer's injury isn't from Arian's. He shouldn't have went shoulder first into a safety while trying to get a 1st down.

Stanton may have only been sacked twice, but he was hit more than that. Like I said I like Arians, but his offensive approach does lead to the QB holding onto the ball longer increasing the chances that the QB will be hit.

[SteelCityColt]

I'm fairly sure someone posted a break down of QB hits under Arians across the Steelers/Colts/Cardinals showing how QB hits do get skewed upwards in his offense. When you consider that he's had two pretty good "evasive" QBs in Rustlersburger and Luck I do think his O lends itself to exposing QB to holding the ball looking for a big pay off on slow developing routes. 

 

As a quick scan Luck went from 41 sacks under Arians to 32 sacks last season. Palmer however went from 26 sacks to 41 under Arians. I'd like to look into it deeper but can't until later. QB hits is not the easiest stat to find apparently! 

[GoColts8818]

I'm fairly sure someone posted a break down of QB hits under Arians across the Steelers/Colts/Cardinals showing how QB hits do get skewed upwards in his offense. When you consider that he's had two pretty good "evasive" QBs in Rustlersburger and Luck I do think his O lends itself to exposing QB to holding the ball looking for a big pay off on slow developing routes. 

 

As a quick scan Luck went from 41 sacks under Arians to 32 sacks last season. Palmer however went from 26 sacks to 41 under Arians. I'd like to look into it deeper but can't until later. QB hits is not the easiest stat to find apparently!

oh yeah those hits where why people wanted him fired when he was the OC here. The only coordinator fans have liked here was Tom Moore.

[CoachLite]

I think the problems with our offensive scheme and play-calling are more complicated and subtle than most folks realize - and these problems are not new. Not only have they been around for a while, but they are not being addressed and corrected. I think this is the fundamental issue with Pep Hamilton and perhaps the rest of the coaching staff.

It boils down to this: The coaching staff has certain deeply-held beliefs - about playing rookies, about overall football strategy, about what kind of team the coaches want the Colts to be - but this may or may not align with the talents of the players currently on the roster. Seems we are often trying to put round pegs in square holes. THIS is the problem some of us see in the coaching staff.

Football is a team sport, and coaching is an integral part of the team. It is obvious to some of us that there is a partial disconnect between the coaching and the players - at many levels. Last year we thought (hoped) that Pep got the message. I'm not so sure he understands what the problem is. Further, I'm not sure he believes there is a problem.

[Superman]

What is the counter argument, that he would get luck "killed" I don't see Palmer or Stanton getting killed.

 

We finally have the O-line coming together to make that offense work.

 

No, the counter argument is that his offensive philosophy is counter to I personally think an offense should do. He's not about efficiency, he's about big chunks. He doesn't like to include backs in the passing game. The route combinations are often maddeningly slow to develop. He doesn't use hot routes.

 

All of those things often lead to his QBs getting hit more, unless he has a really good offensive line. We all want a good offensive line, so that's not the main gripe, it's just a byproduct of a system that I personally don't care for.

 

However, I think Arians is a better coordinator than Pep Hamilton. Difference is that I think Pep can learn and get better, whereas Arians is a 62 year old football coach that's been running his offenses basically the same way his entire career. I hope Pep does get better, and I think there have been signs of that, but we've still got a long way to go.

[SilentHill]

No, the counter argument is that his offensive philosophy is counter to I personally think an offense should do. He's not about efficiency, he's about big chunks. He doesn't like to include backs in the passing game. The route combinations are often maddeningly slow to develop. He doesn't use hot routes.

 

All of those things often lead to his QBs getting hit more, unless he has a really good offensive line. We all want a good offensive line, so that's not the main gripe, it's just a byproduct of a system that I personally don't care for.

 

However, I think Arians is a better coordinator than Pep Hamilton. Difference is that I think Pep can learn and get better, whereas Arians is a 62 year old football coach that's been running his offenses basically the same way his entire career. I hope Pep does get better, and I think there have been signs of that, but we've still got a long way to go.

 

I'd trade it all for Arians game planning ability, He is becoming one of the best game planners in the NFL, and his situational play calling is great too.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I'm fairly sure someone posted a break down of QB hits under Arians across the Steelers/Colts/Cardinals showing how QB hits do get skewed upwards in his offense. When you consider that he's had two pretty good "evasive" QBs in Rustlersburger and Luck I do think his O lends itself to exposing QB to holding the ball looking for a big pay off on slow developing routes. 

 

As a quick scan Luck went from 41 sacks under Arians to 32 sacks last season. Palmer however went from 26 sacks to 41 under Arians. I'd like to look into it deeper but can't until later. QB hits is not the easiest stat to find apparently! 

 

 

Get hits stats on an O line here-

 

http://wp.advancedfootballanalytics.com/teamOL.php?year=2013&season=reg

 

95 hits + 31 sack last year, 101 hits + 40 sacks in 2012.  But Arians threw the football 57 more times in 2012 than Pep did in 2013.  Throw more, you're going to get hit more.  and in 2012 Arians had the 31st ranked pas and run blocking O-Line.  Then he took a job for the team with the 32nd (worst) pass and run blocking team in the NFL.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/

[SilentHill]

I didn't want to make a new topic on pep, but i feel we should discuss how pep said his offense is all about mismatches, bu what about plus matchups?

 

Hakeem Nicks 1 on 1 on the outside in the red zone, we never try to throw it up to him, especially out of this I formation where everyone is expecting the run. IMHO when we are getting single coverage with the safety trailing towards the line expecting the run we should take advantage. Give the receivers some opportunity to make some plays.

[ruksak]

Players need to execute in order for Pep's vision to be properly judged. We've seen how well Pep's offense can function when players execute. Conversely, it matters not who the OC is, if the players cannot execute, it looks really bad.

[SilentHill]

Players need to execute in order for Pep's vision to be properly judged. We've seen how well Pep's offense can function when players execute. Conversely, it matters not who the OC is, if the players cannot execute, it looks really bad.

 

We've been down this road before, If the players can't execute consistently, why keep trying to force it? Find something that works consistently.

[jskinnz]

I didn't want to make a new topic on pep, but i feel we should discuss how pep said his offense is all about mismatches, bu what about plus matchups?

 

Hakeem Nicks 1 on 1 on the outside in the red zone, we never try to throw it up to him, especially out of this I formation where everyone is expecting the run. IMHO when we are getting single coverage with the safety trailing towards the line expecting the run we should take advantage. Give the receivers some opportunity to make some plays.

 

This is what I don't understand.  Nicks has 2 td catches in 3 games.  I think that is a ratio that we would all accept at the end of the year should it continue.  Does it really matter what type of passes those were?  Secondly, the offense is really not having too much trouble at moving the ball or scoring.  Sure there are instances where they could have been better but to me that is more about execution.  Plus, look at the way they have attacked each game.  They do make game plan changes based on the opponent.

 

I think this really gets at there are those who have made up their minds about the guy and no matter the evidence are not going to change their minds.

[ruksak]

We've been down this road before, If the players can't execute consistently, why keep trying to force it? Find something that works consistently.

I'll take the Dungy approach, thank you very much. "We aren't changing a thing. We just need to execute better". 

 

When I see overthrown balls, backs missing blocking assignments, wide open receivers being ignored etc etc....It's really hard for me to think that the problem is the scheme preventing players from execution. They just need to do their jobs. 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

I didn't want to make a new topic on pep, but i feel we should discuss how pep said his offense is all about mismatches, bu what about plus matchups?

 

Hakeem Nicks 1 on 1 on the outside in the red zone, we never try to throw it up to him, especially out of this I formation where everyone is expecting the run. IMHO when we are getting single coverage with the safety trailing towards the line expecting the run we should take advantage. Give the receivers some opportunity to make some plays.

 

It's been 3 games, I'm assuming there are huge chunks of the playbook that haven't been used yet.

[Dustin]

I'm fairly sure someone posted a break down of QB hits under Arians across the Steelers/Colts/Cardinals showing how QB hits do get skewed upwards in his offense. When you consider that he's had two pretty good "evasive" QBs in Rustlersburger and Luck I do think his O lends itself to exposing QB to holding the ball looking for a big pay off on slow developing routes. 

 

As a quick scan Luck went from 41 sacks under Arians to 32 sacks last season. Palmer however went from 26 sacks to 41 under Arians. I'd like to look into it deeper but can't until later. QB hits is not the easiest stat to find apparently! 

 

Colts:

 

QBhits+sacks in 2012: 95

QBhits+sacks in 2013: 99

 

Cardinals:

 

QBhits+sacks in 2012: 105

QBhits+sacks in 2013: 96

 

Steelers:

 

QBhits+sacks in 2011: 59

QBhits+sacks in 2012: 64

 

Draw from this info what you wish.

[SilentHill]

I'll take the Dungy approach, thank you very much. "We aren't changing a thing. We just need to execute better". 

 

When I see overthrown balls, backs missing blocking assignments, wide open receivers being ignored etc etc....It's really hard for me to think that the problem is the scheme preventing players from execution. They just need to do their jobs. 

 

I mean blocking assignments and overthrown balls are on the individual players, but putting someone in a more comfortable situation could be what is best. If you tell me that tomorrow I'm going to be a oncologist, but I'm more comfortable being a podiatrist, is it in my best interest or the firm's best interest for me to be a oncologist? I'd still be a doctor, but is it the best fit?

 

In regards to Luck, Someone needs to coach him to at least check on all of his targets, even if a receiver is getting open and a hard throw is developing, look it off, look at the other receivers, and then look back if it's not there. I think he'll get there, but it looks like the coaching staff isn't even looking into this.

[SteelCityColt]

Colts:

 

QBhits+sacks in 2012: 95

QBhits+sacks in 2013: 99

 

Cardinals:

 

QBhits+sacks in 2012: 105

QBhits+sacks in 2013: 96

 

Steelers:

 

QBhits+sacks in 2011: 59

QBhits+sacks in 2012: 64

 

Draw from this info what you wish.

 

On that showing it would suggest BA's offense doesn't make a difference either way, but the "eye test" suggests otherwise.

 

I suppose the one thing to look at teams in consecutive seasons is to wonder how much the O-Lines changed from one to the next?

[ruksak]

I mean blocking assignments and overthrown balls are on the individual players, but putting someone in a more comfortable situation could be what is best. If you tell me that tomorrow I'm going to be a oncologist, but I'm more comfortable being a podiatrist, is it in my best interest or the firm's best interest for me to be a oncologist? I'd still be a doctor, but is it the best fit?

 

In regards to Luck, Someone needs to coach him to at least check on all of his targets, even if a receiver is getting open and a hard throw is developing, look it off, look at the other receivers, and then look back if it's not there. I think he'll get there, but it looks like the coaching staff isn't even looking into this.

I'll only say this much; If Arians was still here, our offense would be something to behold by this point. 

[SteelCityColt]

I'll only say this much; If Arians was still here, our offense would be something to behold by this point. 

 

With an improved O-Line and the weapons we've got I could agree with this, especially as Arians seems to get the best out of QBs.

[yakimacanutt]

I'm fairly sure someone posted a break down of QB hits under Arians across the Steelers/Colts/Cardinals showing how QB hits do get skewed upwards in his offense. When you consider that he's had two pretty good "evasive" QBs in Rustlersburger and Luck I do think his O lends itself to exposing QB to holding the ball looking for a big pay off on slow developing routes. 

 

As a quick scan Luck went from 41 sacks under Arians to 32 sacks last season. Palmer however went from 26 sacks to 41 under Arians. I'd like to look into it deeper but can't until later. QB hits is not the easiest stat to find apparently! 

I wonder how that looks if you consider all hits the QBs take and how many times they were pressured? I would expect that it will show the same thing but it would be nice to see.

[yakimacanutt]

Colts:

 

QBhits+sacks in 2012: 95

QBhits+sacks in 2013: 99

 

Cardinals:

 

QBhits+sacks in 2012: 105

QBhits+sacks in 2013: 96

 

Steelers:

 

QBhits+sacks in 2011: 59

QBhits+sacks in 2012: 64

 

Draw from this info what you wish.

Thanks, I asked about this and I hadn't looked down to see that you provided it. The total hits says more about exposed the QB really is but the sacks have a more direct effect on the outcome of games.

[Gavin]

I'll only say this much; If Arians was still here, our offense would be something to behold by this point. 

Well right now we average 60 more total yards a game on offense then what we did with Arians, averaged more points a game last year and this year(Through the first three games), Lucks completion percentage is up (Thanks in large part to scheme)....Under Arians we were only 2 percent better on 3rd down conversion then what we are this year, He also  didn't do much of trying to use our running backs to catch passes to take some pressure off Luck from our O Line at the time

[ruksak]

Well right now we average 60 more total yards a game on offense then what we did with Arians, averaged more points a game last year and this year(Through the first three games), Lucks completion percentage is up (Thanks in large part to scheme)....Under Arians we were only 2 percent better on 3rd down conversion then what we are this year, He also  didn't do much of trying to use our running backs to catch passes to take some pressure off Luck from our O Line at the time

Caveat; It was Luck's rookie year. 

[BlueShoe]

To Moderators. 

 

I never ask for anything, but I ask for just this one thing.

 

Please do NOT lock this thread.

 

"Fire Pep" Thread, Stand Up! You in the Hall of Fame, Baby!

 

Sorry guys. I cannot help myself. I might have a problem

[hawkeyes]

Easy to look pretty darned good against some of the worse teams in the NFL - Jaguars / Titans ... lets look that good against a good team!

[austriancolt]

Only thing I don't understand is why keep running constantly through the middle if there is just no hole even for a mouse... Otherwise i was very satisfied over the last two games. Still it was against two of the worst teams in the NFL right now. But I hope it helped the Offensive to get into some beast mode...

[SteelCityColt]

Easy to look pretty darned good against some of the worse teams in the NFL - Jaguars / Titans ... lets look that good against a good team!

  

Only thing I don't understand is why keep running constantly through the middle if there is just no hole even for a mouse... Otherwise i was very satisfied over the last two games. Still it was against two of the worst teams in the NFL right now. But I hope it helped the Offensive to get into some beast mode...

You can only play what's put in front of you.

2 40+ games and people still can't give Pep a little credit?

[corgi]

Easy to look pretty darned good against some of the worse teams in the NFL - Jaguars / Titans ... lets look that good against a good team!

We have, they lost by a grand total of 10 to two of the best. You are either just uniformed, or miserable.

[peytonmanning18]

Pep's plan work perfectly against Jacksonville and Tennessee.  Not so well against actual NFL caliber teams.  We we're down 24-0 at halftime to Denver, and he showed that he was unable to make adjustments when Philadelphia shutdown the counter play in the second half.    

[cmgww]

Last year we beat the Titans by 3 and 8 points. Different teams, but we just buried them. The offense is finding a rhythm and it is light years ahead of this time last year. Bad team or not...remember we struggled with Oakland at home last year in the first game. Pep seems to be calling better games, even with bad opposition. 40+ points and blowouts in consecutive weeks is good, no matter who they're playing. This is still the NFL

[NewColtsFan]

I'll only say this much; If Arians was still here, our offense would be something to behold by this point. 

 

Nice.

 

We're doing incredibly well,  and you're STILL making negative posts.

 

Remember,  we didn't fire Arians,  the man got himself a promotion.

 

I'm sorry you're clearly so unhappy.......

[ruksak]

Nice.

 

We're doing incredibly well,  and you're STILL making negative posts.

 

Remember,  we didn't fire Arians,  the man got himself a promotion.

 

I'm sorry you're clearly so unhappy.......

I liked the Arians offense. That's all my post was meant to portray, that I saw it enabling Luck toward his strengths. I said nothing against the Pep offense, and have since come to be quite intrigued by Pep's vision of our offense. Sure helps when the players execute.

 

 

 

BTW: To some other posters from another thread; This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. I gave an honest, level headed opinion about a perceived shortcoming (right or wrong) and was attacked for it. THIS....this is why I got irritated earlier. 

[hawkeyes]

2 40+ games and people still can't give Pep a little credit?

 

Come on - Jags and Titans are going to have 40 put up against them a lot this year!

 

TR 20 carries and 2.4 YPC I bet that threat really opens up the passing lanes for Luck .... LOL!

 

[SteelCityColt]

Come on - Jags and Titans are going to have 40 put up against them a lot this year!

 

TR 20 carries and 2.4 YPC I bet that threat really opens up the passing lanes for Luck .... LOL!

You still have to execute to put your points on the board. I don't care if it's the Jags or not the game Luck had last week was historically good.

Can't of been that bad on the old passing lanes, nearly 400 yards and 4 TDs against a D that was ranked quite high against the pass.

[austriancolt]

  

You can only play what's put in front of you.

2 40+ games and people still can't give Pep a little credit?

 

Don't get fooled by those two games. I give Pagano, Hamilton and Manusky some credit for winnig those two games but still it was against two of the worst teams in the NFL right now. They have to proof they can execute that well against the upcoming opponents. My hope is that the games against the Jaguars and Titans helped the Offense to create some chemistry and they will stay in beast mode. 

[Dr. Guildo]

Come on - Jags and Titans are going to have 40 put up against them a lot this year!

 

TR 20 carries and 2.4 YPC I bet that threat really opens up the passing lanes for Luck .... LOL!

Impressive note from @ColtsConti: The @Colts 1,027 net yards in back-to-back games is the most in franchise history.

— Kevin Bowen (@KBowenColts)

September 28, 2014

They are doing something right out there. 

[BlueShoe]

I'll only say this much; If Arians was still here, our offense would be something to behold by this point. 

 

For the life of me, I cannot understand why any fan would be unsatisfied with 1,027 yards of offense, 58 first downs, and 78 (offensive) points over the past 2 weeks. 

 

Care to elaborate on what you think Arian's could have done better?

[NewColtsFan]

I liked the Arians offense. That's all my post was meant to portray, that I saw it enabling Luck toward his strengths. I said nothing against the Pep offense, and have since come to be quite intrigued by Pep's vision of our offense. Sure helps when the players execute.

 

 

 

BTW: To some other posters from another thread; This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. I gave an honest, level headed opinion about a perceived shortcoming (right or wrong) and was attacked for it. THIS....this is why I got irritated earlier. 

 

It's interesting that you feel attacked over this and you believe it unfair.

 

In another thread a poster made a clear and obvious joke and you were basically the only poster who complained.   But, that wasn't enough.    When people, including the original poster as well as Superman joined in to stress that it was only a joke you just wouldn't let it go.     On and on and on, you fought a one man crusade.

 

And a post about how good our offense was today got closed.    By you.

 

Talk about unfair?

 

By the way,  one last point.....   look at your post again.   The one I responded to.   How was I, or anyone else for that matter, supposed to look at that and determine that you're actually quite pleased with Pep's offense?

What did you say there that would give anyone that impression?

[ruksak]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why any fan would be unsatisfied with 1,027 yards of offense and 78 (offensive) points over the past 2 weeks. 

 

Care to elaborate on what you think Arian's could have done better?

We've played two of the worst teams in the NFL over the last few weeks, so let's take that into account, and you better bet that matters. 

 

I liked Arians approach because it emphasized our strengths (passing) and devalued our weaknesses (run game). We aren't stretching the field well with Pep's offense. 

 

That being said, there's nothing wrong with objective conversation about our teams less flattering issues. Whether these opinions are necessarily accurate or not, we should still be respectful and not mock others for honest criticism. Demanding a coach get fired after 2 close games is ridiculous, I agree. But people are reacting the same to those such comments as they are to critique? It's not right. 

 

Pep's offense looks great when executed, and perhaps our players just need to execute as they should and Pep would become a unanimous hero here. 

[Dr. Guildo]

I liked the Arians offense. That's all my post was meant to portray, that I saw it enabling Luck toward his strengths. I said nothing against the Pep offense, and have since come to be quite intrigued by Pep's vision of our offense. Sure helps when the players execute.

 

 

It would be something alright & I'm not sure it would be the good kind of something. Andrew Luck would be heaving everything down field while his completion percentage would probably be a lot lower and while Pep deserves some criticism for his game plans like the one against the Eagles they have stepped things up in subsequent weeks. Luck & company are on a roll putting up solid number against anyone.