Would YOU have traded a draft pick and Fleener for Mankins?

[Loneranger]

This would have been a very short term fix for the OL.  Fleener is still growing as a player and has not yet reached his full potential.  No way would I give up a young, talented player like Fleener for a guy like Mankins who could be on his last legs.

 

Now if it were Fleener for say, Cordy Glenn, then I would definitely consider it.

You have to give up something to get something but, go ahead, and if our QB is injured, remember it.

[Jason_]

You have to give up something to get something but, go ahead, and if our QB is injured, remember it.

 

This is kind of ridiculous.  The willingness or lack thereof to trade Fleener has nothing to do with the ability to upgrade the OL.  And if I'm going to trade a player away, then I'm going to make sure I get a player of comparable ability and potential in return, and in this scenario (Fleener for Mankins) I do not believe that would be the case.

 

Like I said, Fleener for Glenn (or another OL of similar talent and age) then we can talk, but Fleener for a 32 year old, quite possibly broken-down Mankins?  Not a chance!

 

Hey we need help at Safety too...should we trade Hilton and a draft pick for Charles Woodson?

[ProblChld32]

A very young talented TE, for a old washed up OL ? PASS

[Loneranger]

A very young talented TE, for a old washed up OL ? PASS

I don't think he is washed up. I also believe he is far better than anyone else we have on the Oline. A young TE with average talent. They are a dime a dozen.

[ProblChld32]

I don't think he is washed up. I also believe he is far better than anyone else we have on the Oline. A young TE with average talent. They are a dime a dozen.

 

I find it hard to belive Bill just trades away a pro-bowl caliber player in Mankins if there isnt a catch, something has to be wrong with him. IMO performance is on the decline he is getting up their in age. 

[SteelCityColt]

I don't think he is washed up. I also believe he is far better than anyone else we have on the Oline. A young TE with average talent. They are a dime a dozen.

So ok lets run this through, we're going to carry 3TEs you'd agree? So what price would you pay in a trade with Fleener and who would you pick up as a replacement? Bearing in mind of course the extra cap hit of Mankins and the price premium the Pats would levy in trading to a conference rival.

[esmort]

I don't think he is washed up. I also believe he is far better than anyone else we have on the Oline. A young TE with average talent. They are a dime a dozen.

 

TE's like Fleener are not "a dime a dozen" , and he is only getting better.

[throwing BBZ]

As many of you know, the Buccaneers traded a 60+ catch receiving TE and a 4th round pick for Logan Mankins of NE, who has been ALL PRO the last 5 years (or perhaps Pro Bowl, can't recall).  

 

So would you have traded Fleener and a 4th (or perhaps 5th) for Mankins?

 

I'd be on the fence.  I don't know the financials, but I think Mankins is expensive.  But will we be able to resign all those 2012 Draft Picks? And if not, Fleener is the one I would let go first of the big 4 that year.  

 

Thoughts?  

 

 laughable.

[JPFolks]

 laughable.

What is laughable?  The trade actually happened, therefore it is anything but laughable.  You may be in love with Fleener, that's fine.  But if Luck goes down, or if he's healthy but our ability to run the ball is removed due to interior line play, then all the Fleeners in the world aren't going to help you.   Fleener only had the numbers he had because he was one of two real options for Luck to throw to most of the season once Reggie went down.  Or were you laughing at my comment that of the four big 2012 picks, (Luck, Hilton, Allen, Fleener) that Fleener was by far the most expendable.  If there is ANY question on us being able to afford all of them, then Fleener should go.  If that is coming, why not trade him for something that not only could help us a lot now and for Lucks prime years 3, 4, 5... but ALSO could help bring along those young interior lineman in a way that the coaches can't, as an on the field leader playing next to them.  

 

I posed the question simply to see what folks thought.  I couldn't care less how many of you got your panties in a bunch over it, but I am pleased that it sparked a lot of activity since last night when I posted it on a slow time on the board.  Posing questions that evoke passionate (and some really interesting points pro and con from those who took it on merit rather than knee jerk dismissal with snarky lame responses such as you've given (wow.. just how much thought did you put into your brilliant retort? How much did you add to the conversation? If it was so "laughable" why did you even engage?  Do you not put more value on your time than to waste it on what you think is worthless?)  Get over yourself.  If you're such a powerful football mind, please create some thought provoking posts yourself so we can all be enlightened.  

 

Most people would agree that Lovie Smith is a quality coach.  His team is far far away from being a Super Bowl contender, yet he STILL saw the value in plugging in the widest, deepest hole on his team.  That happens to still be ours as well.  He saw merit.  I didn't hear ANYONE in the press or from the industry who found the trade laughable.  In fact, the commentary leaned a bit towards New England giving more up than they got.  

 

And to answer the question as to why NE made the trade, it is because they want to get back to 2 tight end threats and this guy will fit in nicely with Gronk.  I have a feeling we might just see how good of a trade it was when we face them.  A 60+ reception TE alongside a healthy Gronk with Brady at the helm sounds like a much more serious threat than Gronk alone.  You may strongly disagree but I think the two tight ends in question, Fleener and the Tampa TE are pretty similar receiving tight ends.  And if Fleener is measurably better, then the trade might have gone down player for player or even with us getting a low round pick out of it instead of the other way around.  I simply asked the question.  Thanks to those who responded with effort and class and added something useful to the post on both sides. 

[Loneranger]

I find it hard to belive Bill just trades away a pro-bowl caliber player in Mankins if there isnt a catch, something has to be wrong with him. IMO performance is on the decline he is getting up their in age. 

Bill always trades players away while they still have value. There are several around the league.

[Loneranger]

So ok lets run this through, we're going to carry 3TEs you'd agree? So what price would you pay in a trade with Fleener and who would you pick up as a replacement? Bearing in mind of course the extra cap hit of Mankins and the price premium the Pats would levy in trading to a conference rival.

If they think he is shot, why would they want a premium? There are tight ends being cut. Draft one next year. We need oline help right NOW.

[Loneranger]

This is kind of ridiculous.  The willingness or lack thereof to trade Fleener has nothing to do with the ability to upgrade the OL.  And if I'm going to trade a player away, then I'm going to make sure I get a player of comparable ability and potential in return, and in this scenario (Fleener for Mankins) I do not believe that would be the case.

 

Like I said, Fleener for Glenn (or another OL of similar talent and age) then we can talk, but Fleener for a 32 year old, quite possibly broken-down Mankins?  Not a chance!

 

Hey we need help at Safety too...should we trade Hilton and a draft pick for Charles Woodson?

Having a bad safety won't get your QB hurt.

[SteelCityColt]

If they think he is shot, why would they want a premium? There are tight ends being cut. Draft one next year. We need oline help right NOW.

Kinda contradicting your logic here for the trade by agreeing he might be shot, I'm saying we're a conference rival, they would make us pay more than Tampa did.

If you're going to venture this opinion at least back it up! Name the trade price, name who you pick up to replace Fleener this season and we can discuss it rather than panic bleating about the Oline.

[SteelCityColt]

Having a bad safety won't get your QB hurt.

The Oline is better than 2012 at least, and even with a HOF line across the board no grantee your QB won't get hurt so stop throwing it out as an absolute. We can all recklessly speculate.

[Warhorse]

Trade a fantastic TE that was a recent draft selection for an aging player? That is how teams disappear from relevance. 

[Loneranger]

Kinda contradicting your logic here for the trade by agreeing he might be shot, I'm saying we're a conference rival, they would make us pay more than Tampa did.

If you're going to venture this opinion at least back it up! Name the trade price, name who you pick up to replace Fleener this season and we can discuss it rather than panic bleating about the Oline.

I would trade Fleener and a 4 for him if that is what it would take. I already said one could get a waiver wire TE and then draft one next year but during that time, your world class QB is protect a lot more.

[Loneranger]

Trade a fantastic TE that was a recent draft selection for an aging player? That is how teams disappear from relevance. 

Fantastic?

[Loneranger]

The Oline is better than 2012 at least, and even with a HOF line across the board no grantee your QB won't get hurt so stop throwing it out as an absolute. We can all recklessly speculate.

Yes, it is a bit better but not enough better. So, fine, if you want Luck to keep taking the most punishment dished out in the NFL, more power to you. I want that line fixed and I want it fixed NOW. They should have gotten this player if they could.

[oldunclemark]

As many of you know, the Buccaneers traded a 60+ catch receiving TE and a 4th round pick for Logan Mankins of NE, who has been ALL PRO the last 5 years (or perhaps Pro Bowl, can't recall).  

 

So would you have traded Fleener and a 4th (or perhaps 5th) for Mankins?

 

I'd be on the fence.  I don't know the financials, but I think Mankins is expensive.  But will we be able to resign all those 2012 Draft Picks? And if not, Fleener is the one I would let go first of the big 4 that year.  

 

Thoughts?

No..absolutely not....WHY? the age difference.

Fleener will be all-pro and Mankins used to be

[OffensivelyPC]

Mankind is like 9.5m per year. And old. So no.

What he said.

[Dustin]

You have to give up something to get something but, go ahead, and if our QB is injured, remember it.

Trading for a guard that gave up 11 sacks last year will definitely help us protect Luck

.....

[oldunclemark]

Trading for a guard that gave up 11 sacks last year will definitely help us protect Luck

.....

You are all over this....Dustin...

,...Belichik must have seen something he didn't like in the playoffs last year .....

.....it couldn't have just all been about the money

[JPFolks]

Trading for a guard that gave up 11 sacks last year will definitely help us protect Luck

.....

Great fact which certainly adds to the topic.  But if he is that bad, why would Lovie Smith trade for him?  Sure, his guys were even worse, but 11 sacks given up seems like among the high end in the league.  Can you link us to the list you found this on? 

 

Thanks.  If this is true, it would certainly weigh in for avoiding any trade.  If he's THAT bad, how did he make the Pro Bowl the last 5 straight years?  How many sacks did Thornton give up last year? I'd like to see the list and see just how stupid Lovie Smith must be. 

[esmort]

Great fact which certainly adds to the topic.  But if he is that bad, why would Lovie Smith trade for him?  Sure, his guys were even worse, but 11 sacks given up seems like among the high end in the league.  Can you link us to the list you found this on? 

 

Thanks.  If this is true, it would certainly weigh in for avoiding any trade.  If he's THAT bad, how did he make the Pro Bowl the last 5 straight years?  How many sacks did Thornton give up last year? I'd like to see the list and see just how stupid Lovie Smith must be. 

 

I don't know where Dustins numbers came from, but here is the PFF comparison between the two for 2013 season:

 

Mankins = Overall: +15.6 / Pass Blk: -3.1 / Screen Blk: -0.5 / Run Blk: +18.8 / Pnlty: +0.4 / QB Sk: 10 / QB Hit: 5 / QB Hur: 22

 

Thornton = Overall: -18.3 / Pass Blk: -15.4 / Screen Blk: +1 / Run Blk: -5.7 / Pnlty: +1.8 / QB Sk: 7 / QB Hit: 17 / QB Hur: 19

 

10 was the most sacks given up by any G

 

17 was the most QB Hits given up by any G (If Luck was not QB more of these hits probably would have been sacks)

 

Mankins had 1269 snaps .... Thornton had 1009 snaps

[JPFolks]

Thank you esmort!  Appears that although Mankins is a dramatically better run blocker, that Mankins isn't keeping Luck any more upright.  I think this pretty clearly indicates a trade wouldn't be worth it.  Sure, we might actually have a run game, but since job #1 has to be to protect Luck, this is nearly a wash (the QB hit number is significantly different I see as well but it is not the huge upgrade that you'd expect).  Of course we have no idea what Mewhorts numbers will look like compared to Mankins, and who knows what happens if either of those guys (Thornton or Mewhort) can't play, perhaps we'd be better off with Incognito at Veterans Minimum on a one year deal to let him prove himself.  

 

Very educational guys.  Apparently those numbers were good enough for Tampa.  They apparently had nothing but have signed 2 quality but not earth shattering guards now.  

[SteelCityColt]

I would trade Fleener and a 4 for him if that is what it would take. I already said one could get a waiver wire TE and then draft one next year but during that time, your world class QB is protect a lot more.

 

Again it's easy to speculate, see I could speculate that we could pick up a waiver wire guard but I think it's unlikely we would find a starting calibre guard. Same as I very much doubt you find a 6'6" 250lb TE who runs a 4.52 40... let alone put up the production Fleener did. Go on name one. 

 

No one is arguing the line could do with improvement but this trade in the long term wouldn't improve the team but kudos for trying to argue for it without addressing any of the criticisms levelled at it, you'd make a good politician 

[sweetsurrender]

He's got 6 more years of solid play he'll probably be a pro bowler again this year. 

lol. six? Maybe two. And they won't be as good as when he was under 30.

[Loneranger]

lol. six? Maybe two. And they won't be as good as when he was under 30.

It always amazes me that people are so critical of a 32 year old lineman's age whose game isn't built on speed but then turn around and think they will get great productivity from a 37 year old receiver and talk about him playing another two or three years when speed is necessary for his game.

[Loneranger]

Again it's easy to speculate, see I could speculate that we could pick up a waiver wire guard but I think it's unlikely we would find a starting calibre guard. Same as I very much doubt you find a 6'6" 250lb TE who runs a 4.52 40... let alone put up the production Fleener did. Go on name one. 

 

No one is arguing the line could do with improvement but this trade in the long term wouldn't improve the team but kudos for trying to argue for it without addressing any of the criticisms levelled at it, you'd make a good politician 

I didn't say that trading Fleener would not be a loss. I think that is an area of strength for the Colts and they could play around that loss. I wasn't even suggesting that a waiver wire TE would be just as good only that we could get by until the draft and grab a TE there. What I was suggesting was that the oline is a glaring weakness that can't wait until the draft or cannot be filled adequately with a waiver wire lineman. But, you are willing to keep risking Luck's health and well being every week and I am not. This was a great opportunity to fix a problem for a couple of years while we keep drafting offensive linemen to make this an area of strength. Trading Fleener will not result in your QB being injured. Not trading him for a very good offensive lineman might result in just that. I am astounded that Luck has made it through the last two seasons without a serious injury. The clock is ticking on that. He is a big strong kid but he is not the man of steel and he will come down under all of this punishment eventually. It is a case of when he comes down, not if. I just don't want to see that happen.

[jvan1973]

Bill always trades players away while they still have value. There are several around the league.

who?

[sweetsurrender]

It always amazes me that people are so critical of a 32 year old lineman's age whose game isn't built on speed but then turn around and think they will get great productivity from a 37 year old receiver and talk about him playing another two or three years when speed is necessary for his game.

You do know that the average career of an NFL player is 3 years? And NFL lineman like Mankins who have played 10 years generally are retired before age 35. And what does speed have to do with anything? A lineman's effectiveness is based on his strength and quickness, all of which deteriorate after age 30. Very few receivers play and play well past age 35.

[jvan1973]

It always amazes me that people are so critical of a 32 year old lineman's age whose game isn't built on speed but then turn around and think they will get great productivity from a 37 year old receiver and talk about him playing another two or three years when speed is necessary for his game.

Reggie is 35, and he never made his money with speed. He gets open and moves the chains. I personally think this will be his last year, but i could be wrong

[chrisfarley]

They used the 2nd rounder they got to take Jamie Collins. I really like Patterson, but that might be enough to swing it in the Pats favor right there.

According to several teams, Patterson wasn’t impressive during interviews at the combine. He also scored 11 on the 50-question Wonderlic intelligence test, which caused more consternation.

Austin’s test score was even lower at 7, but the majority of scouts expect him to learn a playbook without a major hitch.

“He’s not a quick study and it will take him a little time,” another personnel director said. “He will work at it. He cares greatly about it.”

 

Patterson was expensive, but that combine was brutal.

[amfootball]

Reggie is 35, and he never made his money with speed. He gets open and moves the chains. I personally think this will be his last year, but i could be wrong

I love Reggie. He is one of my favorite receivers of all time. I wish he had signed with the Pats a couple of years ago but he believed in Andrew which turned out to be the right move. I hope he comes back at 100 percent this season.

[jvan1973]

I love Reggie. He is one of my favorite receivers of all time. I wish he had signed with the Pats a couple of years ago but he believed in Andrew which turned out to be the right move. I hope he comes back at 100 percent this season.

Reggie is in my top five colts all time. He is a great guy as well as a great player

[Loneranger]

Again it's easy to speculate, see I could speculate that we could pick up a waiver wire guard but I think it's unlikely we would find a starting calibre guard. Same as I very much doubt you find a 6'6" 250lb TE who runs a 4.52 40... let alone put up the production Fleener did. Go on name one. 

 

No one is arguing the line could do with improvement but this trade in the long term wouldn't improve the team but kudos for trying to argue for it without addressing any of the criticisms levelled at it, you'd make a good politician 

I don't think people on this forum would ever make a trade to improve the team. Our players are just too precious and valuable to trade for any other players. NFL games are won and lost in the trenches. We have problems on both sides of the ball but more on the offensive line. We will have a decent regular season record because we have one of the greatest QBs in the game but when it comes to playoff time we will see, as we have seen so many times in the past, that the QB cannot pull you through those games by himself. The talent will out when it comes to crunch time and many experts looking at this team with an unbiased critical eye think that the overall talent with Luck out of the equation is below average. I have read a few that think that talent is average and even a few that think it is a bit above average. Average is average. You might make the playoffs but you aren't going anywhere. I hate the trade that Grigson made for TRich but I admire the boldness of it. We need that kind of approach right now to fix this offensive line. Waiting until the next two or three drafts is a waste of Andrew Luck's career.

[Jason_]

I don't think people on this forum would ever make a trade to improve the team. Our players are just too precious and valuable to trade for any other players. NFL games are won and lost in the trenches. We have problems on both sides of the ball but more on the offensive line. We will have a decent regular season record because we have one of the greatest QBs in the game but when it comes to playoff time we will see, as we have seen so many times in the past, that the QB cannot pull you through those games by himself. The talent will out when it comes to crunch time and many experts looking at this team with an unbiased critical eye think that the overall talent with Luck out of the equation is below average. I have read a few that think that talent is average and even a few that think it is a bit above average. Average is average. You might make the playoffs but you aren't going anywhere. I hate the trade that Grigson made for TRich but I admire the boldness of it. We need that kind of approach right now to fix this offensive line. Waiting until the next two or three drafts is a waste of Andrew Luck's career.

 

That's not true at all.  The truth, however, is that people on this forum would not make a trade that is so obviously in the other team's favor.

[Loneranger]

That's not true at all.  The truth, however, is that people on this forum would not make a trade that is so obviously in the other team's favor.

Yes, it may be in the other teams favor a bit but it fills a desperate need for this team and I think that turns it in our favor. It isn't going to happen so it doesn't matter but that is the kind of deal we need to make now.

[Jason_]

Yes, it may be in the other teams favor a bit but it fills a desperate need for this team and I think that turns it in our favor. It isn't going to happen so it doesn't matter but that is the kind of deal we need to make now.

 

That's where we disagree.  IMO, that trade is way in the Pats favor.  Like I said earlier, Fleener and a possible draft pick for a guy like Cordy Glenn, Kaleche Osemele, Kevin Zeitler etc...then we can talk.

[jvan1973]

Yes, it may be in the other teams favor a bit but it fills a desperate need for this team and I think that turns it in our favor. It isn't going to happen so it doesn't matter but that is the kind of deal we need to make now.

Teams rarely trade good starting OLINE men. There is a reason for that. Mankins is still good, but has a short shelf life. The bucs traded a fourth for him. Wright was an undrafted rookie last year in a different offense. BB wouldn't have traded him in conference for the same amount. Sorry you fail to see that logic