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Did Colts ever fulfill Manning's capability?


tonychen

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The AFCCG was as intensive as any Manning's playoff games at the beginning, but very soon it made people relax - not because of the score, but how he played the game. Pats D could not generate any pressure, and actually they couldn't even touch Manning for the most of the game. The big OL kept the pass rush 4 yards away.

 

Unlike Manning's old days with Colts when the margin for error was within inches, the receivers where WIDE open, as unlike the smaller receivers in Wayne and Harrison who used to be knocked around by Pats DBs, this group of bigger guys were more physical and faster than the Pats DBs.

 

Compared with the old Colts RBs who depended on the stretch plays but constantly got stuffed by the opposing penetration, Denver RBs just ran physically between tackles and the OL out-muscled the opponent.

 

Terrance Knighton was a beast and I cannot recall any Colts DL to be this big and fast. Their DEs and OLBs were not Freeney-Mathis caliber but they played the run consistently.

 

Major injuries and free-agent losses happened, but the team smartly added talents from both drafts and free agency. Sylvester Williams and Ball played well as rookies, but DRC, Shawn Phillips, Welker, and Vasques as FAs all contributed immediately. In comparison Colts almost did nothing in FA in the Manning era.

 

This game shows what Manning is capable of when he is given an adequate supporting cast. Manning's earlier years with Colts he was still learning and had to play a much better Pats team. In 04-06 Colts started to become the better team, but after winning the SB in 06 when people believed Manning had it figured out, Colts followed that with multiple draft busts and eventually a depleted roster when Manning left. After 06, 5 years were wasted. The D could not stop anybody and were always on the field. The O aged and degenerated. The special team gave up big plays on a consistent basis.

 

Looks like it is a good decision for Colts and Manning to part ways. But for Colts although they have made the playoff for two consecutive years, they need to learn from the lessons of wasting Manning's talent to avoid the same things to happen on Andrew Luck.

 

 

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If we could build a team, that had no QB eating up the cap, and then in one season insert a HOF QB, it wouldn't hard to have instant success.

Manning, not purposefully, was culpable in the decay of our team. Because he ate so much of the cap.

We had multiple teams more than capable of winning it all, but for whatever reason we didn't win. I don't think we let Peyton down. And I don't think he let us down. Sometimes things just don't go perfectly.

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If we could build a team, that had no QB eating up the cap, and then in one season insert a HOF QB, it wouldn't hard to have instant success.

Manning, not purposefully, was culpable in the decay of our team. Because he ate so much of the cap.

We had multiple teams more than capable of winning it all, but for whatever reason we didn't win. I don't think we let Peyton down. And I don't think he let us down. Sometimes things just don't go perfectly.

 

Isn't Manning eating the same amount of salary cap at Denver now, not to mention the percentage may be even higher with the lowered cap total? Even if he eats about 15% of the entire cap, there is no excuse to keep drafting busts in the first two rounds for nearly a half decade.

 

The two DEs took over 20% of the entire cap room at the time and they had nobody to generate any pressure the interior, which allowed the opponents to run through the middle just to negate the edge rushers. Not a wise move as well.

 

The current Colts team is supposedly enjoying the low cap hit by Luck, but is the team much better now? The team has potential as it defeated both SB teams, but allowing a mediocre Chiefs to score 44 pts and a washed out RB in Blount to run 166 yards and 4 TDs were as bad as any lost games in Manning's era. Not to mention Luck will earn top QB salary in 2 years and they will face the same problem.

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If we could build a team, that had no QB eating up the cap, and then in one season insert a HOF QB, it wouldn't hard to have instant success.

Manning, not purposefully, was culpable in the decay of our team. Because he ate so much of the cap.

We had multiple teams more than capable of winning it all, but for whatever reason we didn't win. I don't think we let Peyton down. And I don't think he let us down. Sometimes things just don't go perfectly.

 

I think this is overstated. You have a great QB, you have to pay him. 

 

What was more impactful was the rigid approach management and the coaching staff took. Management refused to add players in free agency, even at positions of dire need. The one time they actually made some moves to shore up the offensive line, we won a Super Bowl. Low level moves like signing depth at DL -- akin to the Terrance Knighton or Shaun Phillips signings -- were disregarded in favor of using UDFAs and other lower tier players. We never signed anyone like DRC to help the secondary, we preferred to stick with guys like Jacob Lacey and Tim Jennings. And Dungy was a rigid believer in his 1-gap system, which relied on smaller guys up front. We wouldn't have even wanted someone like Paris Lenon or Robert Ayers (or we'd have moved Ayers to DT like we did Raheem Brock). Later on, Caldwell, Coyer and Christensen didn't make the proper adjustments to take better advantage of the players we did have.

 

And the money that would have gone to some free agents went to our own players. It's not like paying Manning meant no one else could be paid. Freeney, Mathis, Bethea, Brackett, Sanders, Clark, Harrison, Wayne, Lilja, etc., all got big money second contracts from the Colts. Problem is that we sometimes overpaid the wrong guys, rather than spending that money to replace them in free agency. We should have let Gary Brackett walk, for instance. And then, the declining quality of the drafting began to be a problem as well, which influenced decisions like paying Brackett.

 

I agree that paying a QB top money makes it difficult at times. But that's the cross you bear. It makes the other decisions that much more important, and we sometimes didn't do a good job with those other decisions. 

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If we could build a team, that had no QB eating up the cap, and then in one season insert a HOF QB, it wouldn't hard to have instant success.

Manning, not purposefully, was culpable in the decay of our team. Because he ate so much of the cap.

We had multiple teams more than capable of winning it all, but for whatever reason we didn't win. I don't think we let Peyton down. And I don't think he let us down. Sometimes things just don't go perfectly.

Manning only ate more than $11M three times in the thirteen years he was here. So that's less than 10% for 10/13 playing years.

These percentages are wrong. But just looking at the numbers it looks like his biggest hits were 03 and 09.

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There's little doubt in my mind that the current Broncos team is more complete than any of Manning's teams in Indy. On offense, they did well drafting prior to his arrival... Demaryus Thomas, Eric Decker, Julius Thomas, all very talented and productive guys. And having a real QB opened things up for their run game. So they're pretty solid on offense, obviously. 

 

But it's really the Denver defense (as much as they've been criticized all season) that's the difference right now, except for Indy's playoff run in 06-07. They were terrific against both the Chargers and the Patriots.

 

I've also thought that the coaching staff has done a nice job of adjusting in Denver. Fox seems to have eschewed his play-it-close-to-the-vest, conservative style. When the Broncos got the ball on those last couple of possessions Sunday afternoon, they were throwing it and trying to get first downs to kill the clock. I think Fox learned from last year and has been noticeably bolder with his strategy and play-calling.

 

This SB is going to be an interesting match-up. Seattle is built to beat teams like Denver but I am in no way counting the Broncos out. The Seahawks' offense is shaky at times and those guys can be beat. 

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I think this is overstated. You have a great QB, you have to pay him.

What was more impactful was the rigid approach management and the coaching staff took. Management refused to add players in free agency, even at positions of dire need. The one time they actually made some moves to shore up the offensive line, we won a Super Bowl. Low level moves like signing depth at DL -- akin to the Terrance Knighton or Shaun Phillips signings -- were disregarded in favor of using UDFAs and other lower tier players. We never signed anyone like DRC to help the secondary, we preferred to stick with guys like Jacob Lacey and Tim Jennings. And Dungy was a rigid believer in his 1-gap system, which relied on smaller guys up front. We wouldn't have even wanted someone like Paris Lenon or Robert Ayers (or we'd have moved Ayers to DT like we did Raheem Brock). Later on, Caldwell, Coyer and Christensen didn't make the proper adjustments to take better advantage of the players we did have.

And the money that would have gone to some free agents went to our own players. It's not like paying Manning meant no one else could be paid. Freeney, Mathis, Bethea, Brackett, Sanders, Clark, Harrison, Wayne, Lilja, etc., all got big money second contracts from the Colts. Problem is that we sometimes overpaid the wrong guys, rather than spending that money to replace them in free agency. We should have let Gary Brackett walk, for instance. And then, the declining quality of the drafting began to be a problem as well, which influenced decisions like paying Brackett.

I agree that paying a QB top money makes it difficult at times. But that's the cross you bear. It makes the other decisions that much more important, and we sometimes didn't do a good job with those other decisions.

I don't think it's understated at all. It's just the reality of having a top QB. You have to pay them.

But when you have to pay QBs top dollar, a little bit of decay sets in. It becomes harder to rebuild a team top to bottom. Which is what we had to go through in the 2011-12 period.

You see this plenty around the NFL. The Pats went through it. The Ravens just had to deal with it this past offseason. It's not the fault of the QB, but it's the nature of the beast.

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Isn't Manning eating the same amount of salary cap at Denver now, not to mention the percentage may be even higher with the lowered cap total? Even if he eats about 15% of the entire cap, there is no excuse to keep drafting busts in the first two rounds for nearly a half decade.

The two DEs took over 20% of the entire cap room at the time and they had nobody to generate any pressure the interior, which allowed the opponents to run through the middle just to negate the edge rushers. Not a wise move as well.

The current Colts team is supposedly enjoying the low cap hit by Luck, but is the team much better now? The team has potential as it defeated both SB teams, but allowing a mediocre Chiefs to score 44 pts and a washed out RB in Blount to run 166 yards and 4 TDs were as bad as any lost games in Manning's era. Not to mention Luck will earn top QB salary in 2 years and they will face the same problem.

The Broncos are/were already assembled. You didn't have to add tremendous pieces to make them a great team. The team was built, and all they needed was a QB.

If this team stuck with Manning, or any team with any top QB, it's my opinion that a team starts to decay. That doesn't mean they can't succeed, but their absolute peak years are few.

This Colts team is leaps and bound better then the 2010-2011 team. Not all of that is Manning's fault, but we did have the ability to maneuver more pieces around without worrying about his cap.

This isn't just a problem with QBs either. It's just the nature, again in my opinion, of the salary cap era. Harder to pay those who deserve payed, and keep a team together for long periods of time.

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We were for long stretches of Manning's career, and continue to be now, overmatched at the interior of both lines versus playoff teams.

Screen passes and quick slants only go so far once you are facing physical and fast playoff defenses and/or teams with offensive lines and rushing attacks capable of denying you 1-2 offensive possessions.

Add in turnovers and sloppy special teams coverage... and it pretty much sums up why we won 1 Super Bowl when 2-3 were possible.

As for Manning's surrounding cast now...its no accident that Manny Ramirez and Louis Vasquez's stellar performance has immeasurably helped Moreno and Ball, with Peyton as always able to check into very effective run plays.

Their Front 7 should be solid enough to hold a fairly run dependent Seahawks offense in check.

Unless some really harsh weather hits Jersey I think Seattle is in big trouble.

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Colts had some great teams with a ton of great players.  Peyton, Edge, Marvin, Reggie, Freeney, Mathis and Bob Sanders.  Oh and a stellar oline.  I don't know what else they could have wanted.  Can't make a team "perfect" but they had some pretty close.

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The Broncos are/were already assembled. You didn't have to add tremendous pieces to make them a great team. The team was built, and all they needed was a QB.

If this team stuck with Manning, or any team with any top QB, it's my opinion that a team starts to decay. That doesn't mean they can't succeed, but their absolute peak years are few.

This Colts team is leaps and bound better then the 2010-2011 team. Not all of that is Manning's fault, but we did have the ability to maneuver more pieces around without worrying about his cap.

This isn't just a problem with QBs either. It's just the nature, again in my opinion, of the salary cap era. Harder to pay those who deserve payed, and keep a team together for long periods of time.

 

So how do you explain why Broncos can assemble a good team and meanwhile find the money to pay Manning and also add those FA pieces? Maybe the difference is they sucked for a period of time to pile up with earlier draft picks, but it is still no excuse for Colts to continue getting busts and having no contribution from 1-2 rounders for 4-5 yrs.

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Colts had some great teams with a ton of great players.  Peyton, Edge, Marvin, Reggie, Freeney, Mathis and Bob Sanders.  Oh and a stellar oline.  I don't know what else they could have wanted.  Can't make a team "perfect" but they had some pretty close.

 

This was the problem right here. Our three best players on defense weren't great football players.

 

Freeney and Mathis were so one dimensional at times they might as well not have even been out there against the run. And our best defensive player we ever had wasn't on the field half the time.

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Colts had some great teams with a ton of great players.  Peyton, Edge, Marvin, Reggie, Freeney, Mathis and Bob Sanders.  Oh and a stellar oline.  I don't know what else they could have wanted.  Can't make a team "perfect" but they had some pretty close.

 

That team could have won in 04 and 05 but they let the chance slip away. But the majority of these talents stayed in 06 and it paid off. What I am most disappointed with is the wasted time after 06 to assemble a team anywhere near that talent level.

 

When the entire league was obviously steering toward bigger and more powerful players, Colts in the late 2000s' continued to look for smaller players and it ended with a depleted roster in 2011.

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This was the problem right here. Our three best players on defense weren't great football players.

 

Freeney and Mathis were so one dimensional at times they might as well not have even been out there against the run. And our best defensive player we ever had wasn't on the field half the time.

 

Mathis was a complete player and underrated for years. But I do agree that Freeney was overrated as he never contributed much in the running defense.

 

The major problem was the philosophy they had for interior lineman and middle linebackers. If you cannot stop the run the opponents are just not going to pass.

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Until Train Glenn and Jake Scott left...yes. Afterwards we struggled pretty badly when the playoffs rolled around.

Our interior D-line was always soft when Manning was here.

 

They decided not to pay their best OL and Colts stopped to run between tackles afterward. Even for a passing team if your left tackle Charlie Johnson was pretty much a backup level for 25 NFL teams troubles were set to come.

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Mathis was a complete player and underrated for years. But I do agree that Freeney was overrated as he never contributed much in the running defense.

 

The major problem was the philosophy they had for interior lineman and middle linebackers. If you cannot stop the run the opponents are just not going to pass.

 

Before 2012, Robert was a clone of Freeney. He is different now, but back then he was nothing but another Freeney.

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So how do you explain why Broncos can assemble a good team and meanwhile find the money to pay Manning and also add those FA pieces? Maybe the difference is they sucked for a period of time to pile up with earlier draft picks, but it is still no excuse for Colts to continue getting busts and having no contribution from 1-2 rounders for 4-5 yrs.

I'm not trying to say we drafted like champions. Lord knows we didn't. Also a by product of continued success is drafting low, but that's another issue.

But we had plenty of teams loaded with talent that we didn't win it all with. Sometimes the best teams don't win. It happens.

The Broncos had really great pieces, but none of them really cost too much. In a few years a lot of these players will be asking for more pay. It's the perfect storm right now for Denver. Part of the reason, I believe, Peyton wanted to go there.

This Denver team wouldn't look the same 5 years from now if Peyton, hypothetically, player 5 more years. Salary cap makes it hard. But QBs are at a premium, and definitely a priority.

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They decided not to pay their best OL and Colts stopped to run between tackles afterward. Even for a passing team if your left tackle Charlie Johnson was pretty much a backup level for 25 NFL teams troubles were set to come.

Yep ...striking out on Tony Ugoh after Glenn retired began the crumbling. Johnson had his moments but that whole left side was average at best after 06/07.

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The biggest problem Manning had in Indy was Bill Polian. I've said it for yrs. and many disagree but Polian has always been over rated. His blatant disregard to fill obvious weak links on the roster with better talent was nothing more than Polian just being stubborn and wanting to prove to people how brilliant he was by filling those weak links with mediocre talent. If it would have worked(which it didn't) he wanted to look back and make backhanded remarks to those who questioned his "genius". He overpaid mediocre or just bad players instead of upgrading at those positions and he let players walk that he should have paid. 

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The biggest problem Manning had in Indy was Bill Polian. I've said it for yrs. and many disagree but Polian has always been over rated. His blatant disregard to fill obvious weak links on the roster with better talent was nothing more than Polian just being stubborn and wanting to prove to people how brilliant he was by filling those weak links with mediocre talent. If it would have worked(which it didn't) he wanted to look back and make backhanded remarks to those who questioned his "genius". He overpaid mediocre or just bad players instead of upgrading at those positions and he let players walk that he should have paid. 

 

Yes I agree with you. After the 09 team lost to Saints I also pointed this out. His earlier work was not bad but ever since his son took over they never hit the right pick.

 

Today's Pats somewhat look similar to this. They may still win enough games to make the playoff and sometimes go deep, but Belichick's failure to draft talented DBs and WRs have been hurting them, and the players they got to replace veterans did not pan out.

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Yes I agree with you. After the 09 team lost to Saints I also pointed this out. His earlier work was not bad but ever since his son took over they never hit the right pick.

 

Today's Pats somewhat look similar to this. They may still win enough games to make the playoff and sometimes go deep, but Belichick's failure to draft talented DBs and WRs have been hurting them, and the players they got to replace veterans did not pan out.

 

 

 

Honestly, I haven't much cared for Polian since the very early 2000's. When he 1st came here he signed some free agents and it looked as if he was trying to build a balanced team all around. A few yrs. into his tenure here, it pretty much looked to me that he gave up on the balanced theme and just relied on Manning and the offense to take us to the promised land. They brought in Dungy to supposedly fix the defense but never gave him the talent he needed to become even a consistent decent defense. Polian has always been all about offensive weapons and never put the effort into building the trenches on either side of the ball. This has always been our downfall IMO. I have always been a big believer of building a team from the inside out and Polian done just the opposite. It got him to quite a few SB's and many good regular seasons, but he only accomplished the real goal 1 time out of all his yrs.. I don't doubt his knowledge of knowing great offensive skill players, but beyond that...I've never been impressed with him.

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If we could build a team, that had no QB eating up the cap, and then in one season insert a HOF QB, it wouldn't hard to have instant success.

Manning, not purposefully, was culpable in the decay of our team. Because he ate so much of the cap.

We had multiple teams more than capable of winning it all, but for whatever reason we didn't win. I don't think we let Peyton down. And I don't think he let us down. Sometimes things just don't go perfectly.

And he is not worth it?. Look around Indianapolis ( if you can ).

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For now I would like to see how Colts will build the so-called "better team with defense and special team talents" around Luck. The 2012 draft class was a hit but other than Luck how many of them can become franchise players remains to be seen. And by now they 2013 draft was a huge miss, and I think they already overpaid some FAs before wasting a 1st rounder on Richardson.

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Until Train Glenn and Jake Scott left...yes. Afterwards we struggled pretty badly when the playoffs rolled around.

Our interior D-line was always soft when Manning was here.

Tarrick Glenn unexpectedly retiring was the worst thing that ever happened to the Colts.  Not only was Tony Ugoh an epic fail as his replacement, but we STILL haven't found one.  Castonzo has done OK but he isnt an elite all pro like Glenn was.

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If our d could give Peyton a bone at the right time I think we could have made it to some More conference chip games at least.

More championship games does not equal 5 SBs though lol.

And it's not like Peyton was perfect in every single playoff game we ever played.

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Well thats Why I said "potential". Just like the pats made five, I think we could have just as "easily" made 5.

I don't think there is an easy way to get to 5 SBs and we certainly weren't close. We managed to make two. Better teams just bested us in the playoffs. Nothing shameful about that.

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I don't think there is an easy way to get to 5 SBs and we certainly weren't close. We managed to make two. Better teams just bested us in the playoffs. Nothing shameful about that.

It's not shameful at al. I just think we had turn personnel, coaches and talent to do it. Even with our defense. That's how highly I regard Peyton and crew.
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I don't think there is an easy way to get to 5 SBs and we certainly weren't close. We managed to make two. Better teams just bested us in the playoffs. Nothing shameful about that.

 

I don't think the 05 Steelers were a better team. The 05-06 Colts were probably the best in the entire league. In 07 Harrison started to decline very quickly and the replacement in Anthony Gonzalez was not close even before he got injured. Meanwhile the OL degenerated and there was no answer as well. Why they failed to assemble a team that is a little better in Manning's best years was mystery.

 

The 09 team making the SB was a miracle. The 14-0 to start the season was largely due to an easy schedule and a bunch of 1-score games going Colts way. And finally the playoff opponents got rid of Pats and Chargers.

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I think we had the potential to win 2-5 Superbowls in all honesty.

With that defense, special teams, and hyper conservative coaching?

 

Even when our defense showed up for once (2006) during the four game playoff span our special teams still blew. Who lets up a kickoff return TD to start the SB? Seriously?

 

That being said, we always had a chance by virtue of just making the playoffs nearly every season during Manning's time here. Every playoff team has a chance once they punch their ticket. However, we would have needed a LOT of luck to make up for our team's shortcomings and we rarely got any help from the zebras or lucky bounces.

 

The big exception being the Polamalu INT being overturned which was criminal. Justice prevailed since Ben tackled the guy who was stabbed in the ankle the night prior leading up to a Vandershank.

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With that defense, special teams, and hyper conservative coaching?

Even when our defense showed up for once (2006) during the four game playoff span our special teams still blew. Who lets up a kickoff return TD to start the SB? Seriously?

That being said, we always had a chance by virtue of just making the playoffs nearly every season during Manning's time here. Every playoff team has a chance once they punch their ticket. However, we would have needed a LOT of luck to make up for our team's shortcomings and we rarely got any help from the zebras.

The big exception being the Polamalu INT being overturned which was criminal. Justice prevailed since Ben tackled the guy who was stabbed in the ankle the night prior leading up to a Vandershank.

How many superbowls has Devin Hester played in

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