Mike Vanderjagt Is Up For The Hall Of Fame

[Superman]

Im sorry but that was a ridiculous post. I quote you "How is he not clutch? Because he missed a couple of big kicks?" umm yeah, and it's more than a couple. Let's not compare Adam with Vanderjerk. Vanderjerk didn't make 2 super bowl winning kicks, he is not known as the clutchest kicker of all time. No kidding he had a great year in 2003, he made 17 field goals from 20 to 29 yards. Although still quite good, it's not that impressive; he only made 1 field goal of over 50 yards that year. He's only made 15 field goals over 50 yards in his career. That's why he's so accurate, because all he kicks is the 35, 40 yarders. It's more like 3 great years, 2 good years, and 3 mediocre years. He may be more accurate than Adam, but let's not compare "clutchness" because I think we know who wins that. Let me ask you this "Superman" what game winners has Mike kicked, because I got a long list of what Adam has:

- 2 Super Bowl winners

- Late field goal that gave the Colts the lead vs the Jets, it was 51 yards.

- Game winner vs Titans

- Tuck Rule game, which was in a blizzard

- Game winner vs Vikings in 08

- 51 yard game winner vs Chargers in 08

- Game winner vs Chiefs in 07

- 5 field goals in 15-6 win over Ravens in 06 playoffs... reason we won

Your turn Wonderwoman...

Sorry for the pretty bad quality, but let's just remind everyone of this jerk.

It's obvious that you have something against Vanderjagt. And now, I guess you have something against me because I don't share your hatred. It makes no matter. I'm not interested in defending Vanderjagt's character, or explaining away his shortcomings. I'm certainly not interested in demeaning Vinatieri. My point is really simple: Vanderjagt was a really good kicker, despite how things ended for him here.

Take that and throw on it whatever "funny" nicknames you like.

[Andy]

It's obvious that you have something against Vanderjagt. And now, I guess you have something against me because I don't share your hatred. It makes no matter. I'm not interested in defending Vanderjagt's character, or explaining away his shortcomings. I'm certainly not interested in demeaning Vinatieri. My point is really simple: Vanderjagt was a really good kicker, despite how things ended for him here.

Take that and throw on it whatever "funny" nicknames you like.

Hey, I don't hate you, and don't take little nicknames like that seriously. I've been called some harsh things on this forum, but I've lived through it. Now, Vanderjagt was a good kicker, an accurate one, but the point you made that he was clutch, and Adam wasn't was absurd, and you know it. He doesn't deserve to go in the HOF, but he was a good kicker, but all his failed misses will overshadow his accuracy on the 35 yarders. I, personally, would rather have a clutch kicker than an accurate kicker in the 1st and 2nd quarter. Just saying. I'm sorry about the name calling, I was just a little upset about your comment.

[GoColts8818]

I'm not fan of him. I just think that every kicker misses some. Including AV. I don't think Vandy is HOF material. I think maybe Vinatieri is. I obviously think more highly of AV than of Vandy. It just puzzles me the way people talk about him like he was a terrible kicker. He wasn't.

I agree with you on that point. Frankly I think the biggest issue people have with Vandy was his mouth and Manning and Dungy incident. Again if you are going to call them out you better darn well come threw when the game is on the line and he wasn't even 50/50 in that department. I'll give Vandy his due he did have some good moments here that people tend to over look but at he sametime we can't just ignore his bad moments either.

I also hate the "clutch vs not clutch" argument, period. I don't think that a field goal as time is expiring is any more important than a field goal in the middle of the second quarter. It's three points. And all too often, we pump up the ones that come at the end of the game because they're special, but then we act like they somehow mean more than the ones throughout the game. Several people have pointed out the kicks AV missed in the Super Bowls before the game winners. Those count, or actually they don't, because they were missed. It really doesn't matter. We could go back and forth all day. All I'm saying is that Vanderjagt wasn't a bum, he was one of the best kickers in the game. Vinatieri is probably one of the best kickers of all time, but he's not infallible. I'd rather have AV than Vandy. It's just completely overblown.

It might not be any different on the score board but people tend to feel there is more pressure when you know the game is on the line than there is when you can make it up later in the game. That's where the idea of clutch comes from.

[WoolMagnet]

Are you sure that's not the "Jack Daniels" hall of Fame?

[Superman]

Hey, I don't hate you, and don't take little nicknames like that seriously. I've been called some harsh things on this forum, but I've lived through it. Now, Vanderjagt was a good kicker, an accurate one, but the point you made that he was clutch, and Adam wasn't was absurd, and you know it. He doesn't deserve to go in the HOF, but he was a good kicker, but all his failed misses will overshadow his accuracy on the 35 yarders. I, personally, would rather have a clutch kicker than an accurate kicker in the 1st and 2nd quarter. Just saying. I'm sorry about the name calling, I was just a little upset about your comment.

Just understand: I never said Adam wasn't clutch. I simply said that Vanderjagt made his share of game winners, and Adam missed his share. Letting a handful of hits or misses from either of them determine what kind of performer they were isn't my style. I said several times that I'd rather have AV, and I also said that if any kicker from this era is going to the HOF, it will be him. I'm simply pointing out that people get way too hung up on a few misses from Vandy, and they can't forgive him for speaking out of turn against Manning and Dungy, and so now he's remembered as Vandershank, instead of one of the most accurate kickers of all time. Remember him however you want; it doesn't really matter at this point. He's not going to the HOF. Just know that he was a really good kicker, despite the way things ended for him.

[Andy]

Just understand: I never said Adam wasn't clutch. I simply said that Vanderjagt made his share of game winners, and Adam missed his share. Letting a handful of hits or misses from either of them determine what kind of performer they were isn't my style. I said several times that I'd rather have AV, and I also said that if any kicker from this era is going to the HOF, it will be him. I'm simply pointing out that people get way too hung up on a few misses from Vandy, and they can't forgive him for speaking out of turn against Manning and Dungy, and so now he's remembered as Vandershank, instead of one of the most accurate kickers of all time. Remember him however you want; it doesn't really matter at this point. He's not going to the HOF. Just know that he was a really good kicker, despite the way things ended for him.

Understood

[WoolMagnet]

Vandy never made game-winners in BIG games.

He broke my heart too many times.

Who care about a game-winner in week three against the bengals?

I seem to remember the shanks in Miami and against Pittsburgh more.

I would NEVER call Vandy "clutch".

[Superman]

It might not be any different on the score board but people tend to feel there is more pressure when you know the game is on the line than there is when you can make it up later in the game. That's where the idea of clutch comes from.

I'm not pretending that there's no such thing as a clutch moment, or that some people don't perform better in those moments. Break this down to its simplest form, and obviously AV was better in those moments than Vanderjagt was. That doesn't mean Vanderjagt didn't have his clutch moments himself. He did.

And again, my problem with the clutch argument is that people take it and run with it, and once a perception takes root, it grows beyond reality, to the point that it can never be overturned, regardless of what reality actually is. Brady is great in the clutch; Manning always comes up short. Kobe is great in the clutch; Dirk always comes up short. Jeter is great in the clutch; A-Rod always comes up short. I could go on and on. And while it's true that those players who get credit for being great in the clutch have earned that reputation, no one ever tempers their viewpoint when they falter in the clutch. When Brady throws a game-ending interception, it's just an anomaly, but when Manning throws one, it's just more evidence that he doesn't perform in big situations. Despite the fact that he has more game-winning drives than any quarterback in the game. We make up metrics to defend our perceived reality rather than adjusting. We take a handful of moments out of a person's career and let it define them for all time. I've always been sensitive to this clutch argument, even before the Manning/Brady debate began, and it's always got on my nerves.

It's like the Caldwell timeout issue. I hate the Jets timeout as much as anyone else, and I hate the defense of it. But what about all the times he's made good timeout calls and managed the clock well? Those don't matter. Just the one time he got it wrong. And then it mushrooms even further to the point that even good timeout calls are criticized, just because he called them.

I'm ranting now. I'll stop. I'm just saying I don't think the divide between AV and Vandy in the clutch is as great as it's made out to be. AV is obviously better. I'm glad we have him.

[GoColts8818]

I'm not pretending that there's no such thing as a clutch moment, or that some people don't perform better in those moments. Break this down to its simplest form, and obviously AV was better in those moments than Vanderjagt was. That doesn't mean Vanderjagt didn't have his clutch moments himself. He did.

and again I've told you I agreed with you on that. I just pointed out just like we can't ignore the good Vandy did we can't ignore the bad he did too.

[Yehoodi]

Im sorry but that was a ridiculous post. I quote you "How is he not clutch? Because he missed a couple of big kicks?" umm yeah, and it's more than a couple. Let's not compare Adam with Vanderjerk. Vanderjerk didn't make 2 super bowl winning kicks, he is not known as the clutchest kicker of all time. No kidding he had a great year in 2003, he made 17 field goals from 20 to 29 yards. Although still quite good, it's not that impressive; he only made 1 field goal of over 50 yards that year. He's only made 15 field goals over 50 yards in his career. That's why he's so accurate, because all he kicks is the 35, 40 yarders. It's more like 3 great years, 2 good years, and 3 mediocre years. He may be more accurate than Adam, but let's not compare "clutchness" because I think we know who wins that. Let me ask you this "Superman" what game winners has Mike kicked, because I got a long list of what Adam has:

- 2 Super Bowl winners

- Late field goal that gave the Colts the lead vs the Jets, it was 51 yards.

- Game winner vs Titans

- Tuck Rule game, which was in a blizzard

- Game winner vs Vikings in 08

- 51 yard game winner vs Chargers in 08

- Game winner vs Chiefs in 07

- 5 field goals in 15-6 win over Ravens in 06 playoffs... reason we won

Your turn Wonderwoman...

I can not comment on the Titans game you menioned as I don't remember it and not sure which game it is, perhaps you can tell me the year and i can check it . . . but in your list there is only ONE game in which you have the combination of a kick while your team is trailing and a win . . . the one game was the snow bowl game against Oakland, and there even a cavaet to that game, more on this later . . .

here are my thoughts on AV . . . but before I start I just want to mention one point, which I take a very critical, all of the games you mention, except for the Oakland game and last years Jets game, the game was NOT ON THE LINE, basically the games were tied so it was NOT like you miss and you got home, it was if you missed there is still a game to be played . . . big difference, the 05 playoff game with Vandy, Vandy kick in week 1 in '04, and Scott Norwood's kick against the Gmen was if you miss you go HOME . . . just a point that i want to make . . .

The two SBs game winning kicks, whatever, both games were tied at the time and if he missed the kick you still had OT. I am more impressed with SB36 than SB38, in SB38 he coughed up a fur ball in the first half, missing one FG and having another one blocked, if he did his job (like many other kickers in SBs) and made just one of those kicks, the Pats take knee and win by 3 pts, and its a moot, but since he did NOT do his job and was fortunate enough to be on a good team and TB go him back into FG range, he has 3 cracks to make just one FG, and he was 1 for 3. . .

yes the kick against the Jets was great at the time and i do give it some credence, but his team lost, and if we are looking at greatness, you live and die by how your team does, and his team lost . . .

The game in the snow against Oakland was great and at the time and conditions, but what many forgot about (because his team lost that game) was a kick by Jankowski late in the 3rd qtr at the same end of the field in the same blizzard and it wasn't the knockle ball that AV put up 20 feet on the ground, but a near perfect kick, that looked like it was kicked on a sunny day, moral of the story yes the condition might of been bad but another NFL kicker made the same kick in the same conditions and it was much better kick . . . also another NFL kicker made a kick, a better kick, but since his team lost we sadly it is forgotten about . . . fair or not

the chargers, vikes and KC games were all tied and in the regular season with the KC game had being nor more than an extra point . . .

yes teh Titan game he came through and gave a calmness to the team, but the team won 15-6 and not 15-14, so he really only had to make 3 out of 5 . . .

i do know that AV missed a key FG in our div game against Denver in '05 which is part help contribute to the loss . . .

but overall, yes AV had has some good kicks, but for the most part they were made with "less" pressure of a tied game and so its not like he has a long list of kicks that sime like to reference. . .

oh and one last point about Vandy's '05 kick, to be fair to him, the game was basically over, if I remember PM got sack on 4th down at his one 2 or somethings, and i think all pitt had to do was take 3 knees and kick a FG, i kind of forget but i remember it was kind of like game over after the sack, and understandably one's mind might not be into, then all of a sudden you have a chance and i think that it is a factor that AV and other kickers did not have had to deal with late in the game, typically your team is driving and you are getting mentally ready for it . . .

As for the topic of the thread, I think as there are so few kickers in the Hall, Vandy might be on the bubble, sure he is the most accurate kicker, but he has a few bumps in the road that might keep him out . . .

[PatMcAfeeFan]

I have this to say. The committee isn't going to go over highlight reels to figure out who to put in and who not to. They will look at stats. The worst stat for Vandy is from 2002 when he only made 74.2% of his FG. Even though really his worst is a 72%, but that was his Dallas year and he was only there for 10 games. Next worse is 80% and that was 2004. 2003 was his perfect year where he made all FG and XP. Vinatieri in 2003 only made 73% of his kicks. Yeah he may be better in a clutch situation, but Vandy is more accurate. Compare these two links.

Vandy Stats

A.V. Stats

[coltsfanej]

I agree with some of it, but there is definately a difference in a clutch kick and a not clutch kick. If you think that a FG to put a team up 38 to 14 instead of winning 35 to 14 is the same as a kick to win the game at 16 to 14 instead of losing 13 to 14 then your crazy. There is a ton of difference. Pressure makes all the difference. Some guys can handle and some guys cant.

[coltsfanej]

I have this to say. The committee isn't going to go over highlight reels to figure out who to put in and who not to. They will look at stats. The worst stat for Vandy is from 2002 when he only made 74.2% of his FG. Even though really his worst is a 72%, but that was his Dallas year and he was only there for 10 games. Next worse is 80% and that was 2004. 2003 was his perfect year where he made all FG and XP. Vinatieri in 2003 only made 73% of his kicks. Yeah he may be better in a clutch situation, but Vandy is more accurate. Compare these two links.

the may not look at highlight tape, but a guys stats is not all it will be based on. Adams ability to win games with clutch kicks will get him into the hall of fame.