Mike Vanderjagt Is Up For The Hall Of Fame

[GoColts8818]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7031496/drew-bledsoe-tiki-barber-bill-cowher-pro-football-hall-fame-2012-candidates

No joke...

[coltsfanej]

Good ol Vandershank... if its being voted on the ability to choke or have no clutch then he is first ballot hands down lol

[MAC]

I'm not clear on why so many Colts fans don't respect the man. You could have a conversation about whether ANY kickers belong in the hall, but that's a different matter. Personally I think they do, but perhaps in a corner by themselves with a nice card table.

But in considering Vanderjagt you obviously don't compare him to other players, you compare him to other kickers. If you think that his nomination is laughable, then who from his generation do you think is more deserving? But instead of just focusing on one kick against Pittsburgh (at a distance where you would expect failure a good 30% of the time from any kicker in the history of the sport), you'd better compare all lifetime statistics first. The guy was a phenomenal kicker.

[coltsfanej]

I'm not clear on why so many Colts fans don't respect the man. You could have a conversation about whether ANY kickers belong in the hall, but that's a different matter. Personally I think they do, but perhaps in a corner by themselves with a nice card table.

But in considering Vanderjagt you obviously don't compare him to other players, you compare him to other kickers. If you think that his nomination is laughable, then who from his generation do you think is more deserving? But instead of just focusing on one kick against Pittsburgh (at a distance where you would expect failure a good 30% of the time from any kicker in the history of the sport), you'd better compare all lifetime statistics first. The guy was a phenomenal kicker.

He was a great regular season kicker. He just didnt have the ability to come through in the clutch the way some other kickers do.

Yes it may have been a kick thats missed 30% of the time, but is a guy that falls into the 70th percentile worthy of the hall of fame? IMO a hall of fame kicker makes a kick for the win that is missed 30% of the time.

I think of the hall of fame as guys that fall into the 90th percentile or the 95th or 99th.

[Fr33UpFr33ney]

He was a great regular season kicker. He just didnt have the ability to come through in the clutch the way some other kickers do.

Yes it may have been a kick thats missed 30% of the time, but is a guy that falls into the 70th percentile worthy of the hall of fame? IMO a hall of fame kicker makes a kick for the win that is missed 30% of the time.

I think of the hall of fame as guys that fall into the 90th percentile or the 95th or 99th.

So your saying Manning, like Vandejact...should NOT be considered for Hall of fame Induction? Because heaven knows Manning has come through time after 40% of the time in the playoffs.

[coltsfanej]

So your saying Manning, like Vandejact...should NOT be considered for Hall of fame Induction? Because heaven knows Manning has come through time after 40% of the time in the playoffs.

No, thats not what I'm saying at all. Last I checked Peyton has like a million 4th qt comebacks and has had multiple records and is 2nd on almost every passing category in the history of the league. Peyton is obviouly in the top of all the QBs and players of all time.

Is Vanderjagt?

[ColtsLegacy]

No, thats not what I'm saying at all. Last I checked Peyton has like a million 4th qt comebacks and has had multiple records and is 2nd on almost every passing category in the history of the league. Peyton is obviouly in the top of all the QBs and players of all time.

Is Vanderjagt?

I wasn't aware Vanderjagt was a QB.

[coltsfanej]

QB and Kicker are two totally different positions anyway.

A QB has an entire body of work. Yards TDs INTs Wins Leadership comebacks and more

A kicker has makes and misses. The only time a kicker is important is when it affects the outcome of a game. If a kicker cant come through the only time it matters then I dont think he is a HOF. Adam V is a HOF IMO. Hes clutch and has proved it throughout his career. He mad FG when they mattered and thats all that matters for a kicker.

And if I remember right Vanderjagt tried to come back and play for the Cowboys but he sucked to bad and was released.

[coltsfanej]

I wasn't aware Vanderjagt was a QB.

I was obviously referring to his respective position. I will try to be more clear so that you can comprehend in the future.

[Coltssouth]

Good for him. Hope he makes it in.

[Fr33UpFr33ney]

The point is, as of 2005, Vanderjact was the most accurate kicker in NFL History. I dont know if that still holds true, but he was clutch most of the time. My favorite time was that MNF game against Denver in the Snow in early 2000, from 56 yards away.

He missed a couple of good attempts, including the Pitt game (which should have really never been attempted seeing that Palamalu's interception was unfairly over ruled) But he was still more accurate than any other NFL kicker, including Adam Viniteri.

[ColtsLegacy]

I was obviously referring to his respective position. I will try to be more clear so that you can comprehend in the future.

Aren't you sweet.

[coltsfanej]

The point is, as of 2005, Vanderjact was the most accurate kicker in NFL History. I dont know if that still holds true, but he was clutch most of the time. My favorite time was that MNF game against Denver in the Snow in early 2000, from 56 yards away.

He missed a couple of good attempts, including the Pitt game (which should have really never been attempted seeing that Palamalu's interception was unfairly over ruled) But he was still more accurate than any other NFL kicker, including Adam Viniteri.

Based on regular season numbers and career accuracy, he more than deserves it. But I just put more weight into Viniteri's playoff kicks than I do Vanderjagt's regular season accuracy. Its just my opinion. Im not saying that any other opinion is wrong.

People look at things differently.

[Peyton>brady]

Most accurate kicker ever? I think maybe? Someone with more time should look it up.

He definately belongs in the HOF. I'll take all replies with a grain of Curtis Painter

[coltsfanej]

Aren't you sweet.

I do what I can to accommidate

I figured one rude remark deserved another. Unless you werent trying to be, in which case I apologize. But Im pretty sure u were trying to be lol

[ColtsLegacy]

Most accurate kicker ever? I think maybe? Someone with more time should look it up.

He definately belongs in the HOF. I'll take all replies with a grain of Curtis Painter

He was most accurate, he is now second to Nate Kaeding. That's right, Nate Kaeding.

I'm not sure if Vanderjagt belongs in the HOF, but I don't think he deserved all the crap he got from Colts fans, either.

[Malakai432]

I remember when he shanked a 49 yarder against the dolphins in OT (Playoffs) when Lamar Smith had 200+ yards against the Colts, early 2000-2001 year. Not even going to talk about the horrible Pitts shank.

That sucked, but he gave us some good kicks, in the regular season that is. He was a great kicker, he just needed to nail those game winners or tie ball game goals.

[MAC]

Based on regular season numbers and career accuracy, he more than deserves it. But I just put more weight into Viniteri's playoff kicks than I do Vanderjagt's regular season accuracy. Its just my opinion. Im not saying that any other opinion is wrong.

People look at things differently.

The problem with holding Vinatieri up as an example is that all everyone remembers is the famous last second field goals before he and Brady skipped happily into the locker room. What they don't remember (on at least two playoff occasions if memory serves) is the first half whiffs. In both cases if he had made the first half field goals, the last second field goals wouldn't have even been necessary. Often times bringing him in for a first half 35 yarder is like bringing in a baseball closer in the 7th inning with a 5 run lead. Without the adrenaline rush they just can't concentrate. Vanderjagt hit on a significantly higher percentage of his kicks, meaning that he scored more points for his team. I'm also pretty sure that he had a stronger leg.

Granted, I doubt that there has ever been a "clutch" kicker like Vinatieri, but Vanderjagt made many clutch kicks of his own. In a perfect world you'd have both on your squad, and just leave Vinatieri in a glass cabinet on the sidelines with a hammer and a note to the effect: "Open only with under two minutes to go".

[swflacoltsfans]

He was a great regular season kicker. He just didnt have the ability to come through in the clutch the way some other kickers do.

Yes it may have been a kick thats missed 30% of the time, but is a guy that falls into the 70th percentile worthy of the hall of fame? IMO a hall of fame kicker makes a kick for the win that is missed 30% of the time.

I think of the hall of fame as guys that fall into the 90th percentile or the 95th or 99th.

Your basing he didn't come through in the clutch on one kick. He made many clutch kicks some in the snow.

He missed a 47 yarder not a gimme. So Adam Vinatieri doesn't belong in the HOF because he missed a clutch kick against SD a few years ago?

Dungy should have tried to gain ten more yards instead of trying two long passes to Wayne in the endzone.

Steelers were deflated after the Bettis fumble.

[Thewholefnshow28]

I'm not clear on why so many Colts fans don't respect the man. You could have a conversation about whether ANY kickers belong in the hall, but that's a different matter. Personally I think they do, but perhaps in a corner by themselves with a nice card table.

But in considering Vanderjagt you obviously don't compare him to other players, you compare him to other kickers. If you think that his nomination is laughable, then who from his generation do you think is more deserving? But instead of just focusing on one kick against Pittsburgh (at a distance where you would expect failure a good 30% of the time from any kicker in the history of the sport), you'd better compare all lifetime statistics first. The guy was a phenomenal kicker.

It is pretty simple actually. Fans need a scapegoat to blame things on when things go bad. Look at the Cubs and the Bartman incident. Everyone blames him for the Cubs loss in the series, but ignore the fact that they had an entire game to play after that game. The guy was told to commit suicide and and literally went into hiding after that loss.

Colts fans use Vandy and Hank as their scapegoats instead of looking at the team as a whole and saying they loss the Steelers and Satins game respectively.

Yes, Vandy missed some big kicks, but he also made some big kicks and was one of the best kickers in the league while he was here. People just remember him shanking the Steelers game and now he carries the blame for the loss while ignoring the terrible play of our offense and inconsistent play of our offense. They ignore how long of a field goal it was because our offense just kept trying to go deep instead of trying to get a closer kick. It is just easier as a fan to blame one person for a loss then look at our bigger stars and say its their fault.

It is the same way for Hank. Yes, he screwed up big time, but we had an entire second half to play. Our team blew that game not Hank.

[Balzer40]

I think the fact that there is only 1 kicker in the hall of fame is probably evidence enough that Vandershank won't make it in. Vinitieri is more than likely the next kicker that will get in.

[Steagles]

No HOF, the Hall is for players who can win games for teams, not shank a field goal. Vinny on the other hand deserves it when he's up.

I think the fact that there is only 1 kicker in the hall of fame is probably evidence enough that Vandershank won't make it in. Vinitieri is more than likely the next kicker that will get in.

George Blanda, Doak Walker, Paul Hornung and Jan Stanerud are all in the Hall, but only Stanerud was only a kicker, the others played other positions.

[JoKeR]

Well its obviously based on his time with the Colts so im all for it.

[Exodus]

He's not going in. There is only one kicker in the hall of fame, and Adam Vinatieri will be the next one to go in.

[Balzer40]

No HOF, the Hall is for players who can win games for teams, not shank a field goal. Vinny on the other hand deserves it when he's up.

George Blanda, Doak Walker, Paul Hornung and Jan Stanerud are all in the Hall, but only Stanerud was only a kicker, the others played other positions.

Thats my point. Only 1 kicking specialist, like you said, those other players played in a time that a lot of players played more than 1 posistion.

[Superman]

The problem with holding Vinatieri up as an example is that all everyone remembers is the famous last second field goals before he and Brady skipped happily into the locker room. What they don't remember (on at least two playoff occasions if memory serves) is the first half whiffs. In both cases if he had made the first half field goals, the last second field goals wouldn't have even been necessary. Often times bringing him in for a first half 35 yarder is like bringing in a baseball closer in the 7th inning with a 5 run lead. Without the adrenaline rush they just can't concentrate. Vanderjagt hit on a significantly higher percentage of his kicks, meaning that he scored more points for his team. I'm also pretty sure that he had a stronger leg.

Granted, I doubt that there has ever been a "clutch" kicker like Vinatieri, but Vanderjagt made many clutch kicks of his own. In a perfect world you'd have both on your squad, and just leave Vinatieri in a glass cabinet on the sidelines with a hammer and a note to the effect: "Open only with under two minutes to go".

Great, great points. Vinatieri deserves the reputation he has as a clutch kicker, but Vanderjagt made many game winners and clutch kicks, including playoff kicks, over his years with us. People completely forget about the snow game in Denver. I don't think there's another kicker who would have made those kicks. The man holds several records, including the longest streak of field goals made, spanning three seasons. He was absolutely a great kicker.

As for the Hall of Fame, I think if a kicker goes in, he has to be a cut above the rest. Vandy was the best kicker in the league for about three years, but I don't think that's good enough. Plus, he completely imploded after the playoff miss in 2005. I don't think that his career was good enough overall to vote him into the Hall of Fame. He deserves recognition though, certainly more than he gets. I don't think Vinatieri has had a Hall of Fame career, either. He might wind up getting in because of his highlights, but his overall body of work isn't so impressive that he should be one of two kickers there, I don't think.

[Andy]

Ah Vanderjerk, instead of going straight on the highway, he'll turn right... Accurate when the game was in the first 3 quarters, not accurate in the 4th. Still can't believe he missed that 45 yarder against the Steelers in 05.

[Superman]

Ah Vanderjerk, instead of going straight on the highway, he'll turn right... Accurate when the game was in the first 3 quarters, not accurate in the 4th. Still can't believe he missed that 45 yarder against the Steelers in 05.

He missed one big kick. How does that undo all the big kicks he made over the years? What about the game-winner to clinch the division in 2003? What about the snow kicks in Denver?

[GoColts8818]

He missed one big kick. How does that undo all the big kicks he made over the years? What about the game-winner to clinch the division in 2003? What about the snow kicks in Denver?

What about his miss against Miami in the playoffs that would have beaten the Dolphins in over time? What about his miss vs. the Bucs on MNF that he needed a redo on and then clinked it in off the off right from 29 yards which is a chip shot for most NFL kickers? He also missed a field goal in the pro-bowl the one year he made it that would have won it and yes I know the pro-bowl isn't a real game but it's not that drastic of a change for a kicker like it is for other players. He's missed more than one big kick here. He's missed several. He's the anti Vinatieri in terms of being clutch. He also went to Dallas and didn't even make it a season there before they let him go because he couldn't hit anything.

No he didn't stink nearly as much as some Colts fans make him out to be but he missed his fair share of big kicks here beyond the Steelers game and frankly he brought that on himself by calling out Dungy and Manning after the playoff loss. If you are going to call out other players and the coach for not coming threw when the game is on the line you better darn well do it when it's your turn with the game on the line and he didn't.

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

No, thats not what I'm saying at all. Last I checked Peyton has like a million 4th qt comebacks and has had multiple records and is 2nd on almost every passing category in the history of the league. Peyton is obviouly in the top of all the QBs and players of all time.

Is Vanderjagt?

Mike was a very reliable kicker and a very accurate kicker. All those 4th qtr comebacks might not have been wins without Mike. And if I do recall correctly, and I do. He made a decent kick to win the game in the middle of a blizzard AT Denver... the guy makes kicks. Give him the credit. He miss one. Peyton threw an INT in the SUPERBOWL! Not his fault? thats debatable. Just give the guy what he deserves. I believe Mike is HOF worthy.

[Malakai432]

He missed one big kick. How does that undo all the big kicks he made over the years? What about the game-winner to clinch the division in 2003? What about the snow kicks in Denver?

Correction two big kicks, against Pitts and the Dolphins in the playoffs. Probably some others out there as well.

[Superman]

What about his miss against Miami in the playoffs that would have beaten the Dolphins in over time? What about his miss vs. the Bucs on MNF that he needed a redo on and then clinked it in off the off right from 29 yards which is a chip shot for most NFL kickers? He also missed a field goal in the pro-bowl the one year he made it that would have won it and yes I know the pro-bowl isn't a real game but it's not that drastic of a change for a kicker like it is for other players. He's missed more than one big kick here. He's missed several. He's the anti Vinatieri in terms of being clutch. He also went to Dallas and didn't even make it a season there before they let him go because he couldn't hit anything.

No he didn't stink nearly as much as some Colts fans make him out to be but he missed his fair share of big kicks here beyond the Steelers game and frankly he brought that on himself by calling out Dungy and Manning after the playoff loss. If you are going to call out other players and the coach for not coming threw when the game is on the line you better darn well do it when it's your turn with the game on the line and he didn't.

I won't dignify the Pro Bowl comment.

You're right, he missed more than one kick. I think fans get hung up on the Steelers kick, and that's why I get hung up on refuting that claim. Either way, you can point to several he made in addition to a few that he missed. But guess what? They all miss big kicks.

You call him the anti-Vinatieri, to which I say horse dung. I respect you, we agree more often than not, I think, but this is wildly unreasonable. First of all, it suggests that Vinatieri has not, does not, and will not miss big kicks in big games. He has. The gimme he missed in San Diego in 2007 was as brutal as any Vanderjagt ever missed. And it's not the only one he's missed over his career. People are projecting this idea of Vinatieri being infallible with the game on the line, and he's not. He's money, and I think he deserves recognition for being money, so understand that this isn't about pulling him down. I just think people have allowed projection to become reality, but if you'll put the highlights aside, you'll recognize that Vinatieri is not as perfect in the clutch as he's made out to be. And by contrast, Vanderjagt is not as awful in the clutch as he's made out to be.

As an aside, this clutch argument is really one of those things that gets blown out of proportion and takes on a life of its own. People still hang onto this as a support for why they'd prefer Brady over Manning, even though Manning has more 4th quarter comebacks and game tying or winning drives. And then, every time something happens to support that viewpoint, it gets banged to death, while also ignoring the multiple occasions where the opposite is true. Tom Brady is great, but the suggestion that Manning can't perform in the clutch is absurd. And this happens in all sports. Kobe Bryant is heralded as this great clutch performer, but he falters in the clutch significantly more than he succeeds. Meanwhile, a player like Dirk makes game-clinching plays every night, but if they're not buzzer beaters, they get no recognition.

Don't get me wrong. There's no question who I'd rather have kick a game-deciding field goal, AV or Vandy. I'm taking AV every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. But it's not because Vanderjagt can't or hasn't made big kicks with the game on the line. He has. It's just that AV is better in that situation. But all this nonsense that's led to people renaming him Vandershank, and acting like he never came through in the clutch, it's crazy to me. It sucks that the last kick he took was a brutal miss that cost us a chance at a playoff win, and it's even worse how he called out the coach and quarterback. And it's tragic how he melted down after leaving here. But none of that erases all the big kicks he made over his career.

[GoColts8818]

I won't dignify the Pro Bowl comment.

You're right, he missed more than one kick. I think fans get hung up on the Steelers kick, and that's why I get hung up on refuting that claim. Either way, you can point to several he made in addition to a few that he missed. But guess what? They all miss big kicks.

You call him the anti-Vinatieri, to which I say horse dung. I respect you, we agree more often than not, I think, but this is wildly unreasonable. First of all, it suggests that Vinatieri has not, does not, and will not miss big kicks in big games. He has. The gimme he missed in San Diego in 2007 was as brutal as any Vanderjagt ever missed. And it's not the only one he's missed over his career. People are projecting this idea of Vinatieri being infallible with the game on the line, and he's not. He's money, and I think he deserves recognition for being money, so understand that this isn't about pulling him down. I just think people have allowed projection to become reality, but if you'll put the highlights aside, you'll recognize that Vinatieri is not as perfect in the clutch as he's made out to be. And by contrast, Vanderjagt is not as awful in the clutch as he's made out to be.

As an aside, this clutch argument is really one of those things that gets blown out of proportion and takes on a life of its own. People still hang onto this as a support for why they'd prefer Brady over Manning, even though Manning has more 4th quarter comebacks and game tying or winning drives. And then, every time something happens to support that viewpoint, it gets banged to death, while also ignoring the multiple occasions where the opposite is true. Tom Brady is great, but the suggestion that Manning can't perform in the clutch is absurd. And this happens in all sports. Kobe Bryant is heralded as this great clutch performer, but he falters in the clutch significantly more than he succeeds. Meanwhile, a player like Dirk makes game-clinching plays every night, but if they're not buzzer beaters, they get no recognition.

Don't get me wrong. There's no question who I'd rather have kick a game-deciding field goal, AV or Vandy. I'm taking AV every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. But it's not because Vanderjagt can't or hasn't made big kicks with the game on the line. He has. It's just that AV is better in that situation. But all this nonsense that's led to people renaming him Vandershank, and acting like he never came through in the clutch, it's crazy to me. It sucks that the last kick he took was a brutal miss that cost us a chance at a playoff win, and it's even worse how he called out the coach and quarterback. And it's tragic how he melted down after leaving here. But none of that erases all the big kicks he made over his career.

Like I said it's the pro-bowl isn't a real game. I would agree with that. For most players I wouldn't even look at it but like I said for a kicker it's not that much different than any other game. he still kicks the same way and he missed the kick there too. If anything it was less presure than there was in any of the other big kicks he missed and he couldn't event handle that. Also if this was Vandy's only miss in a clutch situation I wouldn't think anything of it. However, it's just another in a long list of game winning situations he didn't come threw. That's why I brought it up.

Like I said in my first post I don't buy the whole Vandy is a joke that he has become since he left here. He did make some big kicks here when he was here too. With that said I can see while people go off on Vandy too, frankly had he not taken the shot at Dungy and Manning I think more fans would have been willing to give him a pass. Like I said if he's going to take a shot at them for not coming threw in a big game spot then he better darn well do it when it's his turn and frankly the two chances he had in the playoffs he failed and one of them he failed beyond bad.

[Andy]

He missed one big kick. How does that undo all the big kicks he made over the years? What about the game-winner to clinch the division in 2003? What about the snow kicks in Denver?

Ha you can't be serious, are you possibly saying he was clutch? :: What about that kick in Tampa in 03, where he originally missed the 40 yarder and then on the 25 yarder he hit the upright and went in... lucky. He also had one good season, actually one great season, which ended up being his only good season, and the reason he was the most accurate kickeri in the league. Without that 2003 season, he's nothing.

[Superman]

Ha you can't be serious, are you possibly saying he was clutch? :: What about that kick in Tampa in 03, where he originally missed the 40 yarder and then on the 25 yarder he hit the upright and went in... lucky. He also had one good season, actually one great season, which ended up being his only good season, and the reason he was the most accurate kickeri in the league. Without that 2003 season, he's nothing.

What a ridiculous post. He wasn't clutch because ... what, exactly? Because he missed a couple of big kicks? Guess who else missed big kicks in their career? I'll give you a hint. His name rhymes with Madam Schminatieri.

Vanderjagt had one BAD year, one mediocre year, and several more great years. There's a reason he was the most accurate kicker of all time, and it wasn't because of 37 attempts in 2003.

[Superman]

Like I said it's the pro-bowl isn't a real game. I would agree with that. For most players I wouldn't even look at it but like I said for a kicker it's not that much different than any other game. he still kicks the same way and he missed the kick there too. If anything it was less presure than there was in any of the other big kicks he missed and he couldn't event handle that. Also if this was Vandy's only miss in a clutch situation I wouldn't think anything of it. However, it's just another in a long list of game winning situations he didn't come threw. That's why I brought it up.

Again, it's the Pro Bowl.

And it's not another in a long list of misses. So far, we have three big kicks he missed (Miami, Tampa, Pittsburgh). I'll spot you New England in the opener in 2004. Even if there's more, how many game winners did he make? How many game tying kicks did he make? Come on. The great clutch Vinatieri has several clutch misses. Several. We never bring those up, though, do we?

Like I said in my first post I don't buy the whole Vandy is a joke that he has become since he left here. He did make some big kicks here when he was here too. With that said I can see while people go off on Vandy too, frankly had he not taken the shot at Dungy and Manning I think more fans would have been willing to give him a pass. Like I said if he's going to take a shot at them for not coming threw in a big game spot then he better darn well do it when it's his turn and frankly the two chances he had in the playoffs he failed and one of them he failed beyond bad.

None of that -- none of it -- means he wasn't a really dang good kicker, because he was. None of that means he didn't hit clutch kicks, because he did. I don't disagree with you that he put his foot so far down his throat that he couldn't pull it out when it was time in Pittsburgh. Then he went completely off the rails in Dallas. Take all of that into consideration, and he was still a really dang good kicker, who came through in the clutch on multiple occasions. To pretend that he wasn't betrays either a lack of perspective or an agenda.

[Andy]

What a ridiculous post. He wasn't clutch because ... what, exactly? Because he missed a couple of big kicks? Guess who else missed big kicks in their career? I'll give you a hint. His name rhymes with Madam Schminatieri.

Vanderjagt had one BAD year, one mediocre year, and several more great years. There's a reason he was the most accurate kicker of all time, and it wasn't because of 37 attempts in 2003.

Im sorry but that was a ridiculous post. I quote you "How is he not clutch? Because he missed a couple of big kicks?" umm yeah, and it's more than a couple. Let's not compare Adam with Vanderjerk. Vanderjerk didn't make 2 super bowl winning kicks, he is not known as the clutchest kicker of all time. No kidding he had a great year in 2003, he made 17 field goals from 20 to 29 yards. Although still quite good, it's not that impressive; he only made 1 field goal of over 50 yards that year. He's only made 15 field goals over 50 yards in his career. That's why he's so accurate, because all he kicks is the 35, 40 yarders. It's more like 3 great years, 2 good years, and 3 mediocre years. He may be more accurate than Adam, but let's not compare "clutchness" because I think we know who wins that. Let me ask you this "Superman" what game winners has Mike kicked, because I got a long list of what Adam has:

- 2 Super Bowl winners

- Late field goal that gave the Colts the lead vs the Jets, it was 51 yards.

- Game winner vs Titans

- Tuck Rule game, which was in a blizzard

- Game winner vs Vikings in 08

- 51 yard game winner vs Chargers in 08

- Game winner vs Chiefs in 07

- 5 field goals in 15-6 win over Ravens in 06 playoffs... reason we won

Your turn Wonderwoman...

[Andy]

Sorry for the pretty bad quality, but let's just remind everyone of this jerk.

[GoColts8818]

Again, it's the Pro Bowl.

And it's not another in a long list of misses. So far, we have three big kicks he missed (Miami, Tampa, Pittsburgh). I'll spot you New England in the opener in 2004. Even if there's more, how many game winners did he make? How many game tying kicks did he make? Come on. The great clutch Vinatieri has several clutch misses. Several. We never bring those up, though, do we?

None of that -- none of it -- means he wasn't a really dang good kicker, because he was. None of that means he didn't hit clutch kicks, because he did. I don't disagree with you that he put his foot so far down his throat that he couldn't pull it out when it was time in Pittsburgh. Then he went completely off the rails in Dallas. Take all of that into consideration, and he was still a really dang good kicker, who came through in the clutch on multiple occasions. To pretend that he wasn't betrays either a lack of perspective or an agenda.

and I have said it was the pro-bowl. We aren't talking a LB here who plays completely different in a pro-bowl. We are talking a kicker who does the exact samething in the pro-bowl that he does in a game. If anything the pro-bowl works in his favor because there is far less pressure on him than a regular game and he still missed the kick pretty bad. What does that say about him?

What about the miss in New England in the season opener that would have sent the game to OT and frankly cost us homefield vs. New England that year in the playoffs in 2004? What about another miss against Miami this time in a regular season game that would have tied a game in 2000? So far we are up to about five big kicks he's missed in his career not counting the pro bowl miss and that's without thinking very hard. I can think of four he hit. A game in Buffalo one year he drilled a game winner, I remember that game because he came out he said he looked across the field and saw Flutie and thought "I am going to beat you." He made the two kicks in Denver in the snow and he made the kick to beat the Texans at home. So that's 5 big miss vs. 4 big makes, ignoring the pro-bowl kick. Vinatieri might have big misses (which you have yet to list just kinda thrown it out there that he has them) but he doesn't have more big misses with the game on the line than he does makes like Vandy does. That's why people get on Vandy. Also since coming here when we've asked Adam to kick something to win a game he has missed one. That's vs. the kick he made to ice the Ravens playoff game, the 50 something yarder to beat the Chargers, a kick he made to beat the Broncos, a kick to beat the Titans, and the kick that should have beat the Jets in the playoffs last year. Without thinking very hard I've come up with more big kicks Adam has made than Vandy has made and that is just here. That's not looking at anything he did in New England.

So yes Vandy's list of misses is very long for a kicker and way too long for a kicker to go into the Hall of Fame. I agreed with you that I think Vandy gets ragged on harder than he should at times by Colts fans but it's not without some merit. If you don't see that fine. I am not going to fault someone for being a fan of someone.

[Superman]

and I have said it was the pro-bowl. We aren't talking a LB here who plays completely different in a pro-bowl. We are talking a kicker who does the exact samething in the pro-bowl that he does in a game. If anything the pro-bowl works in his favor because there is far less pressure on him than a regular game and he still missed the kick pretty bad. What does that say about him?

What about the miss in New England in the season opener that would have sent the game to OT and frankly cost us homefield vs. New England that year in the playoffs in 2004? What about another miss against Miami this time in a regular season game that would have tied a game in 2000? So far we are up to about five big kicks he's missed in his career not counting the pro bowl miss and that's without thinking very hard. I can think of four he hit. A game in Buffalo one year he drilled a game winner, I remember that game because he came out he said he looked across the field and saw Flutie and thought "I am going to beat you." He made the two kicks in Denver in the snow and he made the kick to beat the Texans at home. So that's 5 big miss vs. 4 big makes, ignoring the pro-bowl kick. Vinatieri might have big misses (which you have yet to list just kinda thrown it out there that he has them) but he doesn't have more big misses with the game on the line than he does makes like Vandy does. That's why people get on Vandy. Also since coming here when we've asked Adam to kick something to win a game he has missed one. That's vs. the kick he made to ice the Ravens playoff game, the 50 something yarder to beat the Chargers, a kick he made to beat the Broncos, a kick to beat the Titans, and the kick that should have beat the Jets in the playoffs last year. Without thinking very hard I've come up with more big kicks Adam has made than Vandy has made and that is just here. That's not looking at anything he did in New England.

So yes Vandy's list of misses is very long for a kicker and way too long for a kicker to go into the Hall of Fame. I agreed with you that I think Vandy gets ragged on harder than he should at times by Colts fans but it's not without some merit. If you don't see that fine. I am not going to fault someone for being a fan of someone.

I'm not fan of him. I just think that every kicker misses some. Including AV. I don't think Vandy is HOF material. I think maybe Vinatieri is. I obviously think more highly of AV than of Vandy. It just puzzles me the way people talk about him like he was a terrible kicker. He wasn't.

I also hate the "clutch vs not clutch" argument, period. I don't think that a field goal as time is expiring is any more important than a field goal in the middle of the second quarter. It's three points. And all too often, we pump up the ones that come at the end of the game because they're special, but then we act like they somehow mean more than the ones throughout the game. Several people have pointed out the kicks AV missed in the Super Bowls before the game winners. Those count, or actually they don't, because they were missed. It really doesn't matter. We could go back and forth all day. All I'm saying is that Vanderjagt wasn't a bum, he was one of the best kickers in the game. Vinatieri is probably one of the best kickers of all time, but he's not infallible. I'd rather have AV than Vandy. It's just completely overblown.