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Bjorn Werner first round pick (merge)

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You mean the trade where pats don't pick until 52nd now and what they got in return was 640 points less than what the 29th pick was worth

 

I think this is incorrect, HTown....   I've done the math...

 

They gave up a 1st round pick worth 640 points....   and the four picks they got back are worth.....   649 points.

 

I don't see a problem with this deal for the Pats....

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Hello Colts fans...I'm gonna start out by saying I'm a Browns fan primarily but the Colts are one of my top secondary teams I've rooted for over the years, if not my top secondary. Manning pulled me in and Freeney/Mathis kept me coming back. You guys were my yearly hope of keeping the f'ing patriots out of the superbowl. Ok, so why I am signing up now? To tell you guys you freakin stole one in this years draft. I've been following that kid for a few months now, I've watched almost all his games from the past two seasons. Youtube has awesome "VS" highlights which take a player and show only the offense or defensive snaps from an entire game and highlight said player before every snap. I watched a bunch of these video's from all the top guys, Moore/Jones/Mingo/Ansah/Jordan etc, etc. Basically anybody that had a shot of becoming a Cleveland Brown. Months ago before the draft some mocks had Werner going 2nd but some people were saying this kid could possibly go to a 3-4, so I looked him up.

 

   Honest to god this german kid is the real deal. The only defensive guy who's "overall" tape looks as good as Werner's was Demontre. All these guys put on great highlight reels, heck so does Werner. But when you look at a guys every snap from multiple games...you realize these highlights are just complete * with a lot of these guys. I'll use our pick tonight as an example....Barkevious Mingo is AWESOME when nobody's touching him. Same with Ansah. Just freaks that when they get their wheels rolling just flash all over the place. The problem is those are highlights. WHat happens to em play after play in succession? Mingo, Ansah and Jordan had real problems when offensive lineman from good programs were able to get a hold of them. When Mingo got run at, he couldn't hold the point. I'm really curious as to what my browns expect of him in our 3-4 cause if the play goes his way he's either gonna get trucked or he has to sidestep a lineman too much and the play is by him. He's freakin 6'4 240.....can't play the run as a 3-4 OLB at that weight and frame, not in the NFL, not if you're expected to hold up at the point and turn runs inside.

 

    So now Werner. I invite all of you who don't know who this guy is to go to youtube and type in "Bjoern Werner Vs.". Look at the senior games especially. He had an awesome junior year but he was playing in the 270's. They dropped him to like 255-260 and he may have gotten even better. First off, the kid is the most explosive front seven player off the line in the entire draft this year....hands down. When he gets in his 4 point he blows off the ball like a boss. I remember reading that * kipper talking about Werners lack of "fast twitch" or explosiveness blah blah blah....utterly ridiculous I don't think he watched a minute a tape. Tape doesn't lie. Werner got what, 14 sacks in the ACC? All of the edge. If there's one cut on him it's that he got all his sacks off pretty much the same move to the outside, lacks experience in making moves to the inside...big deal that can be taught, especially when tackles in the NFL are gonna have to cheat to the edge with him. He develops one solid inside move and you guys replaced Freeney.

 

    Ok so you're saying well alex, that's all fine and good but he did that with his hands down...we run a 3-4. Yes, yes that is an issue. One that FS St. kind of negated this past year cause they dropped him to OLB weight, he kept his strength, and they stood up him on a lot of plays when they thought it was a run. Ok so I can't vouch for how the guys gonna cover in space, that is a definite issue with him cause he barely did at all in college....but what I do know is that when they stood him up to stop the run he was a golem. Straight up land squatting golem. Even though he was like 3rd in the nation in sacks, remember he played in the ACC so he played the best of the best including the SEC on a regular basis, his strength is his run stopping. It was jaw dropping to see the guy stuff monstrous offensive lineman, even push them back into the run lane...disengage at will and if not make the tackle, get in on it or at the very least redirect to the inside. I mean this freak fcker was taking on tackle and fullback combo blocks and still holding the point. There was just a ridiculous play he made against Miami where he lined up to the inside between the guard and tackle and both combo blocked him. I mean these two OL were utterly enormous, well over 600lbs of meat blocking down on him. He held them up for an instant and then disappeared...it looked like he just got swallowed up. Next thing I see is that freaks helmet pop up on the other side of the tackle. So he fired out into the block, read the play, then dipped down and to his left to come out on the other side of the tackle as the two OL spill out past him. His pad level was the same when he popped up on the other side, facing up field looking for the incoming runner. The runner looked like he might break to the outside but he saw Werner and cut inside after the two lineman. By that time the defense had collapsed down. Runner still got a few yards but it could have been a lot worse. That whole Miami game Werner was going up against Centrell Henderson who's gonna be a top 10 pick likely when he comes out. Miami even had to send help with the fullback on Werners side. Werner still was literally inches from potentially have 5 or 6 sacks in that game cause he was brushing by the qb around the edge all game long. The tackle did alright against him I'm not gonna say Werner dominated him...but as the game wore on Werner started to grind him down. There was no drop of in performance from him. But that was in pass protection...Werner stuffed the run on his side the whole game.

 

   So this is why I wanted my browns to take a look at him and possibly try to convert him. I understood the reluctance of my fellow fans to use the #6 pick on him especially when we have glaring issues in our backfield and we picked up Paul Kruger in the offseason. But despite already having 3 OLB'ers we still took Mingo with Milliner on the board. Bizarre but that's why we're not good. Oh well. YOu guys though, with Luck running the offense and a top 5 running game which I don't believe you ever had with Manning right? Dear god you guys look potentially sick. The defense was 7th against the pass but 22 against the run...that number is coming down with Werner I promise. No question about it. You guys have Walden on the other side and Mathis is still the premier pass rusher...you're set. The Werner pick was sick for you guys. You got "exactly" what your defense needed. It's possible in the next year or two you have a defense that Manning never had behind him and Luck looks to be no worse. The Colts are back in the AFC championship in two years.

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Like I originally stated I hope I have to come back and have to admit I was wrong and Werner is a stud.  I agree with many of your points, there just seemed like so many more options the way the draft was falling .... personally I wanted to trade back. They actually took a while to make the pick (5-6 mins) I even thought they were making a trade they took so long ... which is another reason I question whether if they were as excited about the pick is what they are portraying.

 

I don't think its the end of the world, I would have just liked to see us have some more 2-4 round picks, especially the way this draft is falling and as much late talent as there seems to be.

Hey I was all for trading back myself but I think Grigson and Pagano know more about what they are doing than I do and frankly neither has given me a reason not to trust them yet so till they do they have my trust.  Like I said if they get it wrong there is going to be plenty of time to bash them for it later.  Maybe that's just me though. 

 

They didn't take 5 to 6 minutes to make the pick.  The NFL just held off on announcing it because they took a commercial break.  Almost as soon as the Colts went on the clock you'll notice it said the pick is in by the Colts name.  Also if you were on twitter all the local guys had the name of the pick a minute or two after and still a good couple of minutes before the league officially announced the pick. 

 

If this guy comes in and is the replacement for Freeney and Mathis we are probably going to be glad the Colts picked who they did and didn't trade back.  If the strikes out then we are going to be all over them for not trading the pick.  I have no clue what the answer is going to be I just know we aren't going to know it tonight. 

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Werner also has experience dropping back into coverage in a short zone (Clemson 2012 bowl game which I am watching now)

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I think this is incorrect, HTown.... I've done the math...

They gave up a 1st round pick worth 640 points.... and the four picks they got back are worth..... 649 points.

I don't see a problem with this deal for the Pats....

I was going off what a thread was in the NFL draft section, I assumed they were correct, that's what I get for assuming.

I still wouldn't feel comfortable dropping to 52 with so many options still on the board

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Restructure or get cut its his choice next offseason lol, because all I see him as now is a back up role just like he was in GB

 

 

Sorry,   but no one restructures a deal they just signed.   I'm not even sure it's legal.   And it certainly would give the Colts a terrible name with all agents in the future.    Why would they trust Grigson in the future if he tries to pressure a guy he just signed to re-do his new deal?!?

 

Come on now.....

 

Walden will likely get all the running downs and Werner will likely get all the passing downs.

 

I expect Mathis and Walden to start,  with Hughes and Sidbury to get their moments or play special teams...  and I would expect Werner to play in sub-packages to start with until he shows what he can and can't do....

 

I think all 5 OLB's will be our opening day roster.....

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Sorry, but no one restructures a deal they just signed. I'm not even sure it's legal. And it certainly would give the Colts a terrible name with all agents in the future. Why would they trust Grigson in the future if he tries to pressure a guy he just signed to re-do his new deal?!?

Come on now.....

Walden will likely get all the running downs and Werner will likely get all the passing downs.

I expect Mathis and Walden to start, with Hughes and Sidbury to get their moments or play special teams... and I would expect Werner to play in sub-packages to start with until he shows what he can and can't do....

I think all 5 OLB's will be our opening day roster.....

Carl Nicks just did it in Tampa, not like Walden really cost a lot anyway early on we can easily carry the contract, still Werner will take over starter duties by week 4 I hope. But hey Nick Perry beat walden out last year so we just have to watch training camp and preseason, let the best man win

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Transition like Terrell Suggs, Demarcus Ware, Aldon Smith, Tamba Hali, Cameron Wake, and countless others?

 

I did not say you could not transition players I said I would prefer someone I did not have to ... and without looking them up I am not sure what exactly each of those players you mentioned were listed as coming out of college ex. DE/OLB; or what their scouting reports said about how they translated to the NFL and/or switching positions.

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I was going off what a thread was in the NFL draft section, I assumed they were correct, that's what I get for assuming.

I still wouldn't feel comfortable dropping to 52 with so many options still on the board

 

 

I didn't want to drop to 52 either....    I was hoping to drop to roughly 40-44.....   and then pull the trigger on a guard.

 

Now,  we've got to hope the guard will be there in the 3rd or 4th round.....

 

Crossing my fingers and hoping.....      :goodluck:        :thmup:

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Carl Nicks just did it in Tampa

 

Nicks did it after his first year....   your post implied that Walden should do it now,  not a year from now.  At least,  that's the way I read your post....

 

Having re-read it,  I could've been wrong on your meaning.....   apologies if that's the case....

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Nicks did it after his first year.... your post implied that Walden should do it now, not a year from now.

I said next offseason, as in next year

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I didn't want to drop to 52 either....    I was hoping to drop to roughly 40-44.....   and then pull the trigger on a guard.

 

Now,  we've got to hope the guard will be there in the 3rd or 4th round.....

 

Crossing my fingers and hoping.....      :goodluck:        :thmup:

I could easily see us going guard in round three.  This is supposed to be a really deep draft for o-line and while this was supposed to be a weak draft in the first round the rest of the draft is deeper than normal to the point I heard someone you could probably get normal third round talent at some positions in the fifth round.  So I think the Colts third rounder could be a starter by the end of the year if taken at the right position. 

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Thanks, i'm tweeking on the Colts chances of being back in the SB hunt. I like hybrid defense's and I think they just picked up the premier hybrid DE/OLB that the draft has seen in some time. After watching Aldon become an average OLB when Justin Smith got hurt last year...I realized just how much Aldon plays off the 5 tech DE next to him. Werner will not need the best 3-4 5 tech in the game playing next to him.

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I could easily see us going guard in round three.  This is supposed to be a really deep draft for o-line and while this was supposed to be a weak draft in the first round the rest of the draft is deeper than normal to the point I heard someone you could probably get normal third round talent at some positions in the fifth round.  So I think the Colts third rounder could be a starter by the end of the year if taken at the right position. 

 

I see only two guards (Winter/Thornton) who are man blockers as opposed to zone blockers that might be there in the 3rd round...

 

And only two more guards (Bailey/Baca) who are man blockers who might be there in the 4th round....   

 

The rest of the possible guards I think are more zone blockers and would not be as effective in our system.

 

Our margin for error I think is pretty slim.

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I said next offseason, as in next year

 

 

Yes....  having re-read your post,  I see that now....    my bad.    Apologies...

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I didn't want to drop to 52 either....    I was hoping to drop to roughly 40-44.....   and then pull the trigger on a guard.

 

Now,  we've got to hope the guard will be there in the 3rd or 4th round.....

 

Crossing my fingers and hoping.....      :goodluck:        :thmup:

Lots of players dropping, some quality lineman will still be there, maybe Schwenke, or Jones in the 3rd or Bailey in the 4 th...

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Werner also has experience dropping back into coverage in a short zone (Clemson 2012 bowl game which I am watching now)

but was he any good at it? I can't judge well on coverage.

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if i recall correctly a lot of texans fans weren't too thrilled with the JJ Watt pick and look how that worked out.

 

If he turns out to be even close to JJ Watt ... I will happily eat my words and admit I was completely wrong for being against this pick.

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It was a consensus top ten pick before the combine, he ran a 4.8 and fell on mocks and rankings

I wouldn't look too much into his combine speed. He's quick (very good initial burst), but not fast, which is more important, in my opinion, as a front line player. If he's having to make plays 40 yards down field then we have a whole separate problem. The guy takes great angles on the ball and is very rarely beaten.

It was a surprise pick for me as well, and I love the pick, but I think he has the skill-set and athleticism to play standing up or with a hand in the dirt. I think the comparison to Suggs is more accurate than the comparison to Krueger. A pass rusher who can play the run.

I think he suits this "hybrid" defense very well and can very well be an every down player. Walden? I don't him having enough of a pass rush skill-set to see him being an every down OLB.

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Yep and Polian thought bringing in Collins in such short notice would work........My point? Just because they have the title GM on there name dont make them right.....I like Werner, I think he needs to build some strength and has a ways to go but as a rotational piece we did very good

You think he needs to build some strength?!?!?! On of his best attributes is that he can go right through lineman with power. You are wrong about that my friend.

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Lots of players dropping, some quality lineman will still be there, maybe Schwenke, or Jones in the 3rd or Bailey in the 4 th...

 

 

My reading says Schwenke and Jones,  who I both like,  are zone blockers and not man....    that's part of the dilemma...

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but was he any good at it? I can't judge well on coverage.

well he didn't get a pick but he didn't look lost in my opinion watching this Clemson & Florida State Bowl Game, He also seems to have good play recognition, he keeps track of the ball, sheds blocks pretty good and closes fast

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I did not say you could not transition players I said I would prefer someone I did not have to ... and without looking them up I am not sure what exactly each of those players you mentioned were listed as coming out of college ex. DE/OLB; or what their scouting reports said about how they translated to the NFL and/or switching positions.

The point was the transition is not a big deal

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My reading says Schwenke and Jones, who I both like, are zone blockers and not man.... that's part of the dilemma...

Right...

Guess I've been high on them because the possibility of their availability in the third, ( although neither may make it to the end of the third), and both have versatility across the line...

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My reading says Schwenke and Jones,  who I both like,  are zone blockers and not man....    that's part of the dilemma...

I keep hearing Schwenke could play either style

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I think this is incorrect, HTown....   I've done the math...

 

They gave up a 1st round pick worth 640 points....   and the four picks they got back are worth.....   649 points.

 

I don't see a problem with this deal for the Pats....

Yeah. Point values for draft picks?

 

Huh? How does that even work? 

 

Especially in this draft, where it can legitimately be argued that rounds 2-6 have never been as talented as they are this year.

 

Assign point values to draft picks if you wish, seems like a waste of time to me. The point value of a pick doesn't reflect the talent that pick can yield.

 

And this year, a middle round pick can yield some really good talent.

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My reading says Schwenke and Jones,  who I both like,  are zone blockers and not man....    that's part of the dilemma...

I think getting a Guard that fits our scheme in the 3rd is going to be much much harder now unless we trade down or find a way to trade up, I was hoping Frederic would last till the 3rd but no I think Dallas panicked somewhat, I thought he could go in the 2nd somewhere, maybe even high 2nd round but did not see the 1st round coming, Getting a Guard that fits our scheme may have to come in the 4th.....and who knows, as creepy as it sounds maybe even later, dang Dallas!!  :flaming:  :cuss: I think you can also pass a little blame to Tennessee, them drafting Warmack came at a surprise to me

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"He's a dynamic pass rusher. We knew we needed to address that. It just so happens we addressed that. He was the highest-rated player on the board at the time. We can do a lot of things with this guy."

"(On) first and second down, he's going to be an edge-setter and play the run game for us," said Pagano. "On third down, there's a multitude of things we can do with this guy. The simplest is line him up opposite of Robert (Mathis) and tell him, 'Sick him. Go get the quarterback.' "

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You think he needs to build some strength?!?!?! On of his best attributes is that he can go right through lineman with power. You are wrong about that my friend.

But when he plays to high and pops straight up out of his stance he can be overpowered (Ok so really more of a matter of losing leverage and not a strength issue, so I take that back).......By the way....whats with the over reaction  O.o

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Ever heard of injuries folks? Just because he might play the same position that was just acquired in FA, doesn't mean we won't need both players.

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Didn't Pagano even joke about turning the German over to Pep in short yardage\goal line situations....

Guten Tag, mein kleinen freundchen!!!

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Yeah. Point values for draft picks?

 

Huh? How does that even work? 

 

Especially in this draft, where it can legitimately be argued that rounds 2-6 have never been as talented as they are this year.

 

Assign point values to draft picks if you wish, seems like a waste of time to me. The point value of a pick doesn't reflect the talent that pick can yield.

 

And this year, a middle round pick can yield some really good talent.

 

I understand your argument and don't disagree with it....   but the value chart, which is posted on the Draft Page of this website, has been in use by NFL teams for roughly 20 years.   Jimmy Johnson reportedly came up with it when he was with the Cowboys.

 

Not every team uses it....   but most do.   And today,   the point value on the big Patriots-Vikings deal is almost a perfect match.

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I like him.

 

:cloud9:

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I think getting a Guard that fits our scheme in the 3rd is going to be much much harder now unless we trade down or find a way to trade up, I was hoping Frederic would last till the 3rd but no I think Dallas panicked somewhat, I thought he could go in the 2nd somewhere, maybe even high 2nd round but did not see the 1st round coming, Getting a Guard that fits our scheme may have to come in the 4th.....and who knows, as creepy as it sounds maybe even later, dang Dallas!!  :flaming:  :cuss: I think you can also pass a little blame to Tennessee, them drafting Warmack came at a surprise to me

 

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think Dallas taking Fredrickson first really hurts us.   He was likely to go before we pick at 86....     I think the biggest problem is the lack of powerful big right guard types....   there just aren't that many and I'd hate to reach for one,   but we might have to.

 

As for Tennessee and Warmack,  I'm surprised you were surprised.   I thought that was one of the easier predictions to make.

 

Head Coach Mike Munchak is a Hall of Fame guard.   OL coach Bruce Matthews is a Hall of Fame guard.    The Titans were linked to either Warmack or Cooper on most mocks.  I thought that projection was a near slam dunk.   I would've been shocked had Warmack not been taken by them.

 

I get the sense you don't read many of those mocks....   not that they're required reading....   but they do give you a good feel for how others see the draft shaking out.....

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“You turn on the film and he jumps off the screen at you,” said Grigson.  “He’s one of those guys you watch and say, ‘He’s not going to be there.’

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I just woke up and came straight online to check out who drafted who and I was a little disappointed to find we drafted Bjoern Werner. I had Jones higher than him and he was still available. I also had Sylvester Williams (a different type of player, I know) higher than him and he was still there too.

I'm a little surprised we didn't take Xavier Rhodes too considering he was still around at 24.

Looking at the players that are still available, i think we definitely could have traded back and still drafted a good player. I'm disappointed we didn't go that way. But hey, maybe we had no offers once we were on the clock?

I'm not too heartbroken anyway, I can certainly get behind this kid, he just wasn't what I was expecting.

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In the grand scheme of things, I don't think Dallas taking Fredrickson first really hurts us.   He was likely to go before we pick at 86....     I think the biggest problem is the lack of powerful big right guard types....   there just aren't that many and I'd hate to reach for one,   but we might have to.

 

As for Tennessee and Warmack,  I'm surprised you were surprised.   I thought that was one of the easier predictions to make.

 

Head Coach Mike Munchak is a Hall of Fame guard.   OL coach Bruce Matthews is a Hall of Fame guard.    The Titans were linked to either Warmack or Cooper on most mocks.  I thought that projection was a near slam dunk.   I would've been shocked had Warmack not been taken by them.

 

I get the sense you don't read many of those mocks....   not that they're required reading....   but they do give you a good feel for how others see the draft shaking out.....

I pay attention to some mocks, more so Mayocks and Kiper and a couple of other guys at NFL.com but I dont take them to heart, they are mocks, None will be perfect

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For the record I had wished the Colts would've traded back to pick up extra picks in a draft really deep with talent..That didnt happen.  So im studying the move Grigs and Pags are looking to do, and when you really think about it one of the things Bjoern Werner brings to the D is something that was simply non-existent last year- pass rush and pressure..Think about it the guy batts down passes @ the line, he's got over 20 sacks in just the last two years alone, he's a versitile player who attacks from the line AND from the stand up, 18 TFL and 8 pass break up last year alone!! I see this guy as a chess piece for pags to line up to whatever the situation dictates.. rotate him on DE, OR on third and long line him up across from Mathis.  From the way Grigs is talking he's here to compete for opposite Mathis with Hughes and Walden(I dont think they care what his pay is) Which is awesome..and makes for a nasty camp competiton and eventual rotation. Took me a minute..but  I like it.

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If it's any consolation, when word came through that the Vikings' pick was in, the Colts' pick was immediately in as well. Grigson and Chuck got their man.

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