Luck Era vs Manning Era

[chad72]

This one was going down the path of SB rings vs regular season success from the beginning, wasn't it?

 

To me, SB rings are not the beginning, nor are they the end all to measure a QB's success. They serve as the tie-breaker for a QB's comparative evaluation.

 

I will try to put my objective hat on and try to theorize as best as I can :

 

1. Brady has had similar regular season success as Peyton and has more SB rings than Peyton. So, by virtue of that, he does have an edge over Peyton when being judged among all time QB greats.
2. A guy like Eli or Big Ben who have had multiple SB rings but are not nearly the field generals that Brady and Peyton are, have to settle for a place behind Brady and Peyton in the list of QB greats
3. A guy like John Elway who was on less talented teams compared to both Brady and Peyton (just my two cents) till his last 2 years, needs to be given credit for his 3 SB losses just for getting his team there. By winning those 2 rings with a more talented team, he sits above Eli and Big Ben too, on the same level as Brady and Peyton, IMO. You can easily make a case he will sit above Peyton too.
4. So, Luck, if his regular seasons are sporadic like Eli or Big Ben, but manages to win 2 SBs, he will fare no better than Eli or Big Ben in the list of all time QBs, IMO.
5. Brees and Rodgers, if they continue their regular season pace that they are having, but manage to win one more SB each, they will have to be mentioned alongside Brady and Peyton and will vault above Eli and Big Ben, IMO.

Lost in all this shuffle is the coaching factor that Belichick and Walsh brought to the picture that have had a considerable impact in team playoff success, IMO.

[amfootball]

He threw 2 picks in 2 games vs San Diego in the playoffs. He also threw 4 TDs and over 700 yards. A little research once in a while doesn't hurt.

This is going to be painful. Billy Volek beat you in 2007. Bill Volek? I will give you a mil bucks if you can tell me anything about him other than he beat Manning in the playoffs. A year later at 12-4 you visited the 8-8 Chargers who might have been the worst team to ever make the playoffs and lost. Again, tell me how either game was a defensive collaspe?

[Dustin]

This is going to be painful. Billy Volek beat you in 2007. Bill Volek? I will give you a mil bucks if you can tell me anything about him other than he beat Manning in the playoffs. A year later at 12-4 you visited the 8-8 Chargers who might have been the worst team to ever make the playoffs and lost. Again, tell me how either game was a defensive collaspe?

 

I didn't say they were. I just said that you were wrong.

[amfootball]

This one was going down the path of SB rings vs regular season success from the beginning, wasn't it?

 

To me, SB rings are not the beginning, nor are they the end all to measure a QB's success. They serve as the tie-breaker for a QB's comparative evaluation.

 

I will try to put my objective hat on and try to theorize as best as I can :

 

1. Brady has had similar regular season success as Peyton and has more SB rings than Peyton. So, by virtue of that, he does have an edge over Peyton when being judged among all time QB greats.
2. A guy like Eli or Big Ben who have had multiple SB rings but are not nearly the field generals that Brady and Peyton are, have to settle for a place behind Brady and Peyton in the list of QB greats
3. A guy like John Elway who was on less talented teams compared to both Brady and Peyton (just my two cents) till his last 2 years, needs to be given credit for his 3 SB losses just for getting his team there. By winning those 2 rings with a more talented team, he sits above Eli and Big Ben too, on the same level as Brady and Peyton, IMO. You can easily make a case he will sit above Peyton too.
4. So, Luck, if his regular seasons are sporadic like Eli or Big Ben, but manages to win 2 SBs, he will fare no better than Eli or Big Ben in the list of all time QBs, IMO.
5. Brees and Rodgers, if they continue their regular season pace that they are having, but manage to win one more SB each, they will have to be mentioned alongside Brady and Peyton and will vault above Eli and Big Ben, IMO.

Lost in all this shuffle is the coaching factor that Belichick and Walsh brought to the picture that have had a considerable impact in team playoff success, IMO.

Great stuff. I agree with your points and would put Elway behind Brady but ahead of Peyton. But let me ask you what if Eli or Ben get a third ring? Are they then above Peyton?  Does it take two more rings to suspercede the regular season stats and achievements?

[Vance]

WHOOOO BOY!!!!!!

 

 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Defensive collapses? Colts lost 24-14 and 17-3 to the Pats in 03 and 04 and then lost 21-18 to the Steelers in 2005. How exactly are those losses on the defense? And I have not even touched on the Charger losses against whom Manning routinely threw multiple picks...

 

All I'm saying is our defense has let my Colts down many times . Peyton Manning would get us in a position to win & defense failed consistently year after year although Tony Dungy was hired to fix the defense , We went to the Superbowl & Won with a defense that in the regular season was the worst . 2 Superbowl appearances 1 win . And countless one & dones in the playoffs . You are not a Colts fan & I realize this your examples are a small window into a big picture a small sampling of a 14 year career that the Colts franchise & Ryan Grigson have learned from & Andrew Luck will benefit from - No dream team here just a solid team building a monster Defense that will drive the ball down the throat of the AFC for years to come . When your 12 retires I'll save ya a seat on the Colts freight train , Go Blue .

[chad72]

Great stuff. Let me ask you what if Eli or Ben get a third ring? Are they then above Peyton?  Does it take two rings to suspercede the regular season stats and achievements?

 

That is hard to say because Eli, in his 2 SB runs, had a superior QB rating compared to Big Ben, who was pitiful in the 2005 SB (everyone probably remembers that). In Eli's case, I would say "yes" because he was a No.1 pick going to a team drafting at No.4 and Big Ben's Steelers were a better unit than Eli's Giants when they were drafted thus leading to Big Ben winning a SB in his 2nd year. Big Ben's Steelers gave up 17 vs Bengals, 18 vs Colts, 17 vs Broncos, en route to his first SB, and 10 vs Seahawks in the 2005 SB, pretty impressive average, IMO.

 

I would say yes for Eli with a 3rd ring, and not yet for Big Ben, if you wanted an answer. Of course, this assumes Eli would maintain a level of consistent QB play, greater than or equal to what he is showing now across seasons.

[amfootball]

All I'm saying is our defense has let my Colts down many times . Peyton Manning would get us in a position to win & defense failed consistently year after year although Tony Dungy was hired to fix the defense , We went to the Superbowl & Won with a defense that in the regular season was the worst . 2 Superbowl appearances 1 win . And countless one & dones in the playoffs . You are not a Colts fan & I realize this your examples are a small window into a big picture a small sampling of a 14 year career that the Colts franchise & Ryan Grigson have learned from & Andrew Luck will benefit from - No dream team here just a solid team building a monster Defense that will drive the ball down the throat of the AFC for years to come . When your 12 retires I'll save ya a seat on the Colts freight train , Go Blue .

I don't disagree that some years Peyton was playing with sub-par defenses. But I find the argument flawed to say his teams were not good when they won 12-13 games every year but then it was the D fault when they lost in the playoffs. Some of the games like the 41-3 drubbing against the Jets was on the D but still Manning only managed 3 points. Many of his playoff losses have come from a lack of scoring IMO as much as from a poor defense.

 

I have said this before, I ama huge Luck fan and believe he is the real deal. I am already voting for the Colts now just not when they play my team. :-)

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

I don't disagree that some years Peyton was playing with sub-par defenses. But I find the argument flawed to say his teams were not good when they won 12-13 games every year but then it was the D fault when they lost in the playoffs. Some of the games like the 41-3 drubbing against the Jets was on the D but still Manning only managed 3 points. Many of his playoff losses have come from a lack of scoring IMO as much as from a poor defense.

 

I have said this before, I ama huge Luck fan and believe he is the real deal. I am already voting for the Colts now just not when they play my team. :-)

 

Hang on Peyton Manning made mistakes when you carry the team as much as he did it happens - Our team giving up 100's of yards to RB's most the time kept 18 off the field & cased many more losses than you realize I watched all the games , Did you ?

In the playoffs New England has looked like the Colts now for a few years only better yet no more rings. People always point at 18 for the 1 & dones yeah he shares some blame for trying too hard in a shoot out playoff scenario , Guilty His realization that the defense  has failed consistently for years is obvious with the desperation throws that sometimes fall into the wrong hands balls get batted up what ever if our defense had played as good as Manning the Colts would have dominated the AFC & New England . Be thankful for the good defense the Patriots fielded in Brady's early years . Offense draws crowds Defense wins games . Bill Polian got it half right . Now Grigson will seal the deal .

 

The Colts defense thru out the Manning era was Sub Par  most years ,period .

[chad72]

The Colts defense thru out the Manning era was Sub Par  most years ,period .

 

You have to add special teams high on that list of reasons, more so than D, IMO.

 

Whether it is Vanderjagt missing a game winner vs Dolphins in 2000, or Dante Hall in the no punt playoff game vs Chiefs in 2003 getting a TD, or Vanderjagt shanking a kick in 2005, or Ellis Hobbs getting all those returns in the 38-34 2006 AFCCG, or Devin Hester getting a SB record opening kickoff TD in 2006, or Scifres having his way with pinning Peyton inside the 5 consistently with no successful counter tactics on our side in 2008, or Hank Baskett muffing the onside kick recovery in the Saints SB in 2009, or the Jets getting a 53 yard return from Cromartie after falling behind within a minute in 2010, HOW MANY YEARS did those playoff occurrences span, really???

 

In a close playoff game, field position and special teams play matters immensely.

 

Polian got it half right, the offense and half of the defense. He forgot half of the defense and the entire special teams . The year we won it all, our D played well enough to overcome the ugly step child, the ST, which still sucked and we won despite our ST woes.

[amfootball]

Hang on Peyton Manning made mistakes when you carry the team as much as he did it happens - Our team giving up 100's of yards to RB's most the time kept 18 off the field & cased many more losses than you realize I watched all the games , Did you ?

In the playoffs New England has looked like the Colts now for a few years only better yet no more rings. People always point at 18 for the 1 & dones yeah he shares some blame for trying too hard in a shoot out playoff scenario , Guilty His realization that the defense  has failed consistently for years is obvious with the desperation throws that sometimes fall into the wrong hands balls get batted up what ever if our defense had played as good as Manning the Colts would have dominated the AFC & New England . Be thankful for the good defense the Patriots fielded in Brady's early years . Offense draws crowds Defense wins games . Bill Polian got it half right . Now Grigson will seal the deal .

 

The Colts defense thru out the Manning era was Sub Par  most years ,period .

I think this is where Colts and Pats fans diverge. I am willing to admit that Brady simply did not get it done this year in the playoffs. 13 points won't cut it. He is the best in the game and needs to play like it. While the Pats are currently fielding one of the worse secondaries ever, Brady needs to and must do his part. And remember I am saying this about a sixth round pick who was supposed to be holding  a clip board his entire career.

 

For all the accolades and pedigree of Manning and his 100 mil contracts you sure do all have a lot of excuses for him. I doubt even he would lay all his playoff failures at the feet of his defense not when he has had multiple TO games like this year and back in the day against the Pats when Ty Law had as many catches as Harrison. I mean at some point you have to be realistic, even the year he won his only title he threw 3 TDs to 7 picks. Hardly much of a stat line for one of the all time greats.

[Jason_]

This is going to be painful. Billy Volek beat you in 2007. Bill Volek? I will give you a mil bucks if you can tell me anything about him other than he beat Manning in the playoffs. A year later at 12-4 you visited the 8-8 Chargers who might have been the worst team to ever make the playoffs and lost. Again, tell me how either game was a defensive collaspe?

 

ah yes that was embarrassing when Manning lost to volek in that game of one on one. 

[BleedingBlue]

We've lost our path.

 

the post is comparing Eras. Era is a measurement of Time.

 

We are comparing two teams of different Eras. Not two QBs.

 

What is the measurement of a success for an Era? IMO, Hardware. Period. The Yankees are the greatest baseball team because they have the most WS Trophies, for example.

 

this has nothing to do with the players...it has to do with the teams success over a span of a decade.

 

The word dynasty is used to describe a team that dominated an Era...not by single season wins, but by championships.

 

The OP used QB names to differentiate the ERAs but the subsequent posters have had trouble distinguishing the difference and want to keep comparing the QBs when we really need to focus on the success of the club.

 

So far, the Colts in the AL Era are on track to be just as good as the PM Era Colts.

 

One and done.

 

next topic.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

You have to add special teams high on that list of reasons, more so than D, IMO.

 

Whether it is Vanderjagt missing a game winner vs Dolphins in 2000, or Dante Hall in the no punt playoff game vs Chiefs in 2003 getting a TD, or Vanderjagt shanking a kick in 2005, or Ellis Hobbs getting all those returns in the 38-34 2006 AFCCG, or Devin Hester getting a SB record opening kickoff TD in 2006, or Scifres having his way with pinning Peyton inside the 5 consistently with no successful counter tactics on our side in 2008, or Hank Baskett muffing the onside kick recovery in the Saints SB in 2009, or the Jets getting a 53 yard return from Cromartie after falling behind within a minute in 2010, HOW MANY YEARS did those playoff occurrences span, really???

 

In a close playoff game, field position and special teams play matters immensely.

 

Polian got it half right, the offense and half of the defense. He forgot half of the defense and the entire special teams . The year we won it all, our D played well enough to overcome the ugly step child, the ST, which still sucked and we won despite our ST woes.

 

I forgot about the Liquored up Kicker ..  Signing Adam Vinateri was a big deal as well .

 

The year we won it all is still something that I have issues with how could our defense step up get it done when they had been so bad it remains a mystery to me . Thanks for pointing out the special teams I had overlooked that .

 

Although I realized that punter Pat McAfee has been a huge asset.

[amfootball]

I forgot about the Liquored up Kicker ..  Signing Adam Vinateri was a big deal as well .

 

The year we won it all is still something that I have issues with how could our defense step up get it done when they had been so bad it remains a mystery to me . Thanks for pointing out the special teams I had overlooked that .

 

Although I realized that punter Pat McAfee has been a huge asset.

Unbelievable.

 

How about the Broncs special teams THIS year that spotted him 14 points? Does that count? Or is it still all Moore?

[jvan1973]

Unbelievable.

How about the Broncs special teams THIS year that spotted him 14 points? Does that count? Or is it still all Moore?

the broncos offense scored more than the pats offense FTW

[amfootball]

the broncos offense scored more than the pats offense FTW

If Luck got spotted 14 points against the Ravens, they win, period. Same for Pats and Brady.

[jvan1973]

If Luck got spotted 14 points against the Ravens, they win, period. Same for Pats and Brady.

if the broncos secondary doesn't give up two hail Marys the broncos win

[amfootball]

I forgot about the Liquored up Kicker ..  Signing Adam Vinateri was a big deal as well .

 

The year we won it all is still something that I have issues with how could our defense step up get it done when they had been so bad it remains a mystery to me . Thanks for pointing out the special teams I had overlooked that .

 

Although I realized that punter Pat McAfee has been a huge asset.

Don't forget to add to your ever growing list of excuses the weather gods that made it snow in foxboro all those years and made Denver chilly and windy this year...

[amfootball]

if the broncos secondary doesn't give up two hail Marys the broncos win

Mannin's three TOs=17 points>two hail mary's=14pts.

[chad72]

If Luck got spotted 14 points against the Ravens, they win, period. Same for Pats and Brady.

 

You cannot look at it like that. 35 points is 35 points. Just because Ellis Hobbs runs an 85 yarder in the 2006 AFCCG with the score tied 21-21 and Brady throws to Jabar Gaffney for the last 15 yards for a TD, now all the credit goes to Brady and not to Hobbs for generating that field position? So, if Holliday gets stopped at the 5 yard line and Peyton throws a TD pass, it shows up in Peyton's stats, some people will still say "it was not Peyton, it was Holliday" and others will want to give all credit to Peyton. We have to find middle ground here.

 

In fact, I could make a case in the thin air of Denver that if Peyton got an extra TD on offense as opposed to a ST TD, the Ravens' D, which looked gassed on that last drive that put the Broncos up 35-28, it would have worked to the Broncos' advantage, more so than the ST TD. So, that is not a straight forward extrapolation to make, IMO.

 

I will definitely agree that Brady and Eli take care of the ball more than Peyton in the playoffs in critical situations. They take the sacks, which are better than fumbles or picks. But then, if Peyton has an incomplete pass to Blair White and gets a potential game winning FG in the Jets 2010 playoff game, then the fact that he did not throw a pick then does not matter because he should have done more with the pass vs Blair White. Just pointing out situations that have happened in the past where Peyton cant win with naysayers.

[amfootball]

You cannot look at it like that. 35 points is 35 points. Just because Ellis Hobbs runs an 85 yarder in the 2006 AFCCG with the score tied 21-21 and Brady throws to Jabar Gaffney for the last 15 yards for a TD, now all the credit goes to Brady and not to Hobbs for generating that field position? So, if Holliday gets stopped at the 5 yard line and Peyton throws a TD pass, it shows up in Peyton's stats, some people will still say "it was not Peyton, it was Holliday" and others will want to give all credit to Peyton. We have to find middle ground here.

 

In fact, I could make a case in the thin air of Denver that if Peyton got an extra TD on offense as opposed to a ST TD, the Ravens' D, which looked gassed on that last drive that put the Broncos up 35-28, it would have worked to the Broncos' advantage, more so than the ST TD. So, that is not a straight forward extrapolation to make, IMO.

Sorry man, you completely lost me. If Manning had another possession it probably would have resulted in another TO not a TD especially late in the game when his arm was toast.

[jvan1973]

Mannin's three TOs=17 points>two hail mary's=14pts.

Manning 3td passes > Brady 1td pass

[chad72]

Sorry man, you completely lost me. If Manning had another possession it probably would have resulted in another TO not a TD especially late in the game when his arm was toast.

 

I was talking about regulation when his arm was still good enough. Having another possession in regulation could have at least helped Peyton gass the Ravens' D a bit more, even if he did not get a TD out of it. The ST TDs took little out of the Ravens' D, that was my point. But 7 pts is 7 pts nevertheless.

 

The arm getting worse, I agree that it happened, and showed up more in OT, IMO. The situation was like Eli vs the 49ers in the NFCCG, Eli took sacks again and again and again, but kept punting. He trusted his D and ST and they showed up with a turnover in OT leading to the game winning FG. Eli did nothing in particular, much like Peyton, to get his team in positive territory in OT. But he won the game because his ST finally made a play and flipped field position.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Unbelievable.

 

How about the Broncs special teams THIS year that spotted him 14 points? Does that count? Or is it still all Moore?

Peyton Manning was my fav Indianapolis Colt -  Orange only looks good in Knoxville .

 

Dude I'm a Colts fan .  I followed everything he did his senior year at Tenn & his years as a Colt & I enjoyed them very much  . I can google his Bronco career if at some point I care . But you have more invested in this than I ,, I did'nt watch the games he played in last year other than a occasional glimpse as he moved on so did I .

 

I realize you like to push buttons try again .

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Don't forget to add to your ever growing list of excuses the weather gods that made it snow in foxboro all those years and made Denver chilly and windy this year...

 

 

LOL   Pumped in crowd noise was a good one . That  some used here in Indy .

 

[braveheartcolt]

I think this is where Colts and Pats fans diverge. I am willing to admit that Brady simply did not get it done this year in the playoffs. 13 points won't cut it. He is the best in the game and needs to play like it. While the Pats are currently fielding one of the worse secondaries ever, Brady needs to and must do his part. And remember I am saying this about a sixth round pick who was supposed to be holding  a clip board his entire career.

 

For all the accolades and pedigree of Manning and his 100 mil contracts you sure do all have a lot of excuses for him. I doubt even he would lay all his playoff failures at the feet of his defense not when he has had multiple TO games like this year and back in the day against the Pats when Ty Law had as many catches as Harrison. I mean at some point you have to be realistic, even the year he won his only title he threw 3 TDs to 7 picks. Hardly much of a stat line for one of the all time greats.

You made a mistake. He 'was' the best in the game, using your logic. He hasn't won a ring for 8 years. He's had his day, if, as you are spouting, it's all about the rings. All those fancy divisional titles and TD's and MVP's since 2004 are just decoration. He's also lost more SB's than anyone this century. I suppose we can use his wife as a 'tie breaker' though....

[amfootball]

You made a mistake. He 'was' the best in the game, using your logic. He hasn't won a ring for 8 years. He's had his day, if, as you are spouting, it's all about the rings. All those fancy divisional titles and TD's and MVP's since 2004 are just decoration. He's also lost more SB's than anyone this century. I suppose we can use his wife as a 'tie breaker' though....

He is still the best in the game and the best of his generation and in the discussion of the all time best.

 

You are so right about Giesle. She is totally the tiebreaker. It is as if he won her. I mean I saw an article not that long ago about why brady is the greatest ever. It gave 5 reasons and Giesle was number 4. lol. Totally cracked me up. His three Lombardi's are the same as her apparently and if he wins a fourth she will still equal his football success. amazing...

[jvan1973]

He is still the best in the game and the best of his generation and in the discussion of the all time best.

You are so right about Giesle. She is totally the tiebreaker. It is as if he won her. I mean I saw an article not that long ago about why brady is the greatest ever. It gave 5 reasons and Giesle was number 4. lol. Totally cracked me up. His three Lombardi's are the same as her apparently and if he wins a fourth she will still equal his football success. amazing...

welkers wife is hotter

[braveheartcolt]

He is still the best in the game and the best of his generation and in the discussion of the all time best.

 

You are so right about Giesle. She is totally the tiebreaker. It is as if he won her. I mean I saw an article not that long ago about why brady is the greatest ever. It gave 5 reasons and Giesle was number 4. lol. Totally cracked me up. His three Lombardi's are the same as her apparently and if he wins a fourth she will still equal his football success. amazing...

How is he the best in the game right now, if he hasn't won a ring in 8? You are contradicting yourself. Or are you just being a statistical cherry picker?

[amfootball]

How is he the best in the game right now, if he hasn't won a ring in 8? You are contradicting yourself. Or are you just being a statistical cherry picker?

Because championships don't expire. He is still playing and still has the most rings AND SB appearances of any current QB playing the game.

[amfootball]

Um, no. Not even close. Supermodels are in a class on their own...

 

welkers wife is hotter

[Gramz]

You made a mistake. He 'was' the best in the game, using your logic. He hasn't won a ring for 8 years. He's had his day, if, as you are spouting, it's all about the rings. All those fancy divisional titles and TD's and MVP's since 2004 are just decoration. He's also lost more SB's than anyone this century. I suppose we can use his wife as a 'tie breaker' though....

I disagree......   Ashley is beautiful,  inside and out   (and another PLUS ~ she doesn't run her mouth...)

[jvan1973]

Um, no. Not even close. Supermodels are in a class on their own...

she has zero curves. Kate Upton is waaay hotter

[Susie Q]

He is still the best in the game and the best of his generation and in the discussion of the all time best.

 

You are so right about Giesle. She is totally the tiebreaker. It is as if he won her. I mean I saw an article not that long ago about why brady is the greatest ever. It gave 5 reasons and Giesle was number 4. lol. Totally cracked me up. His three Lombardi's are the same as her apparently and if he wins a fourth she will still equal his football success. amazing...

I just have one question for you. If Tom terrific is the best ever why is it that they haven't won a SB since  Spygate happened? Been to 2 and lost them both to the Giants.  As far as I'm concerned looks like the Spygate was what helped them win the 3 they won.   If they had won a SB since that happened maybe my opinion would have been different but as it stands now I feel they cheated in all 3 games they won and then got caught.

[braveheartcolt]

Because championships don't expire. He is still playing and still has the most rings AND SB appearances of any current QB playing the game.

And history makes him the best current player? That sounds like an argument a five year old would come up with.

[amfootball]

she has zero curves. Kate Upton is waaay hotter

Giesle has curves. She was a victoria secrets model. I know you may be blinded by Brady's good looks when he stands next to her but believe me they are there and then some...

[braveheartcolt]

I disagree......   Ashley is beautiful,  inside and out   (and another PLUS ~ she doesn't run her mouth...)

I never said she would win the tie breaker...!

[BleedingBlue]

I disagree......   Ashley is beautiful,  inside and out   (and another PLUS ~ she doesn't run her mouth...)

love ya grams...but welkers wife ran her mouth...ask ray lewis.

 

did she say anything I don't say on a daily basis about ray ray? No.

 

but she said it nonetheless.

[amfootball]

And history makes him the best current player? That sounds like an argument a five year old would come up with.

I lost you. I said in the discussion of all the time best. As it stands Montana has one more ring them him but Brady has more wins in the regular season, more divisional titles and more post-season victories than Montana. And a better overall winning percentage and TD/INT ratio all time. I really can't quibble with people who still put Montana ahead of him as I am a firm believer in the rings but Brady has been playing in a much tougher era when players leave through FA. He has basically taken four different teams to the Sb whereas Montana got to keep his core together for all his SBs.