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Smonroe

How Much Do We Really Have in Cap Space For FAs?

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toss out Vaughn and add Shipley in there

 

 

Yeah, the list I looked at didn't even mention Shipley so I forgot about him. I still think Vaughn has a chance to be resigned. Grigson saw something in him he liked.

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I know I heard somewhere, either on NFL network or ESPN, them talking about teams must spend 89% each yr.. Maybe they have misinterpreted the rule though. I thought it was each yr., but I guess we'll eventually find out. All we can do now is guess and hope for the best with all these free agents wish lists.

 

Yeah, that's what everyone says. However, I interpret the CBA as saying its 89% over a 4 year period (the language seems really clear to me). Probably just a case of the typical uninformed media repeating the wrong information over and over.

 

Again, I don't think this is really even an issue for the Colts. This is in there for the Mike Brown owners who refuse to spend unless forced to. A lot of hype over something pretty insignificant. Like someone said earlier, the Colts, and most teams for that matter, will be much closer to spending 92-95% of cap going into the season.

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Yeah, the list I looked at didn't even mention Shipley so I forgot about him. I still think Vaughn has a chance to be resigned. Grigson saw something in him he liked.

athleticism Im sure is what Grigson liked, the dude showed absolutely no field awareness

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Given we will have a decent amount of cap, and people here are very well informed, I want to ask this question in this manner:

What is a 3rd down pass rushing OLB specialist, at the end of his career (DF) worth? Obviously there's a place for a guy like that on any team. The Seahawks drafted a young version of him in Bruce Irvin and that turned out great for them.

I'm not saying Dwight would stay for the amount, or he would even want to stay if he doesnt start. And I fully realize that some team will overpay for him.

I'm just asking what he's legitimately worth to this team?

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Given we will have a decent amount of cap, and people here are very well informed, I want to ask this question in this manner:

What is a 3rd down pass rushing OLB specialist, at the end of his career (DF) worth? Obviously there's a place for a guy like that on any team. The Seahawks drafted a young version of him in Bruce Irvin and that turned out great for them.

I'm not saying Dwight would stay for the amount, or he would even want to stay if he doesnt start. And I fully realize that some team will overpay for him.

I'm just asking what he's legitimately worth to this team?

 

 

 

IMO and I want to stress, it's just my opinion, Freeney is nothing more than a very limited situational pass rusher in our system, therefore I wouldn't even offer him a contract because I think he'll want to go to a 4-3 team to finish out his career and make a push for himself as a HOFer. He literally has no chance of accomplishing that goal if he remains a Colt IMO. I really don't think Freeney wants to play out his career in a system where he doesn't really fit.

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90% of the money we have to spend is right at 34 million dollars. I think the guys we will resign will cost in the neighborhood of 10 million and the rookies will account for 4-5 million. So that would leave about 19-20 million to spend. This is exactly why I keep harping over and over that we will not sign the big name FA WR that people keeping clamoring about. No way we spend 10 million a yr. for a WR when we need so many other positions filled first.

 

I don't think your numbers take into account the fact that the Colts will still carry only 53 players on the active roster. I believe the $40M estimate is a projection based on the current roster. They will lose unrestricted (and possibly restricted) free agents and free up additional cap space in the process. The new CBA makes signing drafted players a bargain versus re-signing veterans. So the net effect will be the free agent losses will offset the money it takes to re-sign certain free agents and draft picks.

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Something I haven't seen mentioned is restructuring losses. I personally see this FA class as being weak for the Colts. The positions we need filled probably won't yield the right fits. So it may be possible that the Colts will restructure for the future.

 

Let's take a look at Satele's current situation: 

In 2013 he is due to make 2,700,000

In 2014 he is due to make 4,200,000

 

Because of how much cap space the Colts actually have, I would not be surprised to see them restructure a contract like this to make it easier in the future.

Grigson could:

1) Flip it, Satele makes 4,200,000 in 2013 and 2,700,000 in 2014

2) Split the difference, Satele could make 3,450,000 in both years

 

Both methods help the Colts reach the cap minimum this year, with an eye on a better future. 

 

The point is that you shouldn't get too caught up in believing we have to spend all of that money on draft picks and the FA, other options exist. 

 

Good stuff.

 

Another example is Cory Redding. He has base salaries in 2013 and 2014 of $3.5m, and a cap hit of $4.4m. We could give him a $4m roster bonus in 2013, a base salary of $1m, and his cap hit in 2013 would go up to $5.9m. Then his 2014 cap hit would be $2.9m. Would work out to being a bit of a reward for a good 2012, and make it easier for us to carry him in the last year of his contract.

 

There are several candidates for that kind of restructuring in 2013 in order to meet the minimum cap number, and that kind of restructuring would free up future cap space. We don't have to go spend like crazy on free agents to get there.

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athleticism Im sure is what Grigson liked, the dude showed absolutely no field awareness

 

Yeah, he's a decent depth/special teams guy. Him, Lefeged and Sergio Brown are very good on punt coverage.

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I don't want to get off topic, but reading the replies to this thread has really demonstrated to me how dead wrong so many in the media were when they said that Colts fans were fickle. They were so sure that we all were moving to Denver and that LOS would be half empty in 2012....

The Colts have some of the most loyal and knowledgeable fans in the NFL and the fact that we take the time to analyze player contracts and the CAP on this forum is further proof of that. I love this game and my home team. I consider myself lucky to have been raised in this market and I am proud to be counted among the members of this fanbase and forum with all of you...

Now watch somebody make another "RGIII vs. Luck" or "Denver or Bust"  thread and make me look dumb...

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I don't want to get off topic, but reading the replies to this thread has really demonstrated to me how dead wrong so many in the media were when they said that Colts fans were fickle. They were so sure that we all were moving to Denver and that LOS would be half empty in 2012....

The Colts have some of the most loyal and knowledgeable fans in the NFL and the fact that we take the time to analyze player contracts and the CAP on this forum is further proof of that. I love this game and my home team. I consider myself lucky to have been raised in this market and I am proud to be counted among the members of this fanbase and forum with all of you...

Now watch somebody make another "RGIII vs. Luck" or "Denver or Bust"  thread and make me look dumb...

I agree, esp some radio hosts who live in Indy and said losing Manning would be a huge mistake.      And really hurt the Colts in the long run.     Whatever.... 

 

Anyone who lives in the state of Indiana has witnessed first hand a transformation in this states sports psyche.    Indiana was once a BASKETBALL state true blue.     But over the last 20 years a change has occured...  and a HUGE change.    High School football has taken over.    And the Indy Colts and Manning are a huge reason, factor in IN destroying the state BB tourney and going to class BB and there you have it.   

 

The IN state BB tourney WAS the greatest sports tourney H.S., college, or Pro in the entire US.    It was awesome.   The PTB went to class BB (thinking they could get more money, in reality the tourney now loses money) and now nobody cares about it anymore.    Football has taken over.   HS football stadiums are sold out.   I live in Marion, the Bill Green arena used to sell out EVERY home BB game (7,000+) every game.    They can't get 2,000 people in there now.  The Wigwam in Anderson has closed. 

 

Indiana has turned into a football state.    And the presure for IU and Purdue to start producing is really ramping up also.    Colt fans are COLT fans not Manning fans.    Last season was a perfect example...  this team sucked and the entire fan base stood by them the whole way through.    Colt football is here to stay.

 

Rock ON Colts... 

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I agree, esp some radio hosts who live in Indy and said losing Manning would be a huge mistake. And really hurt the Colts in the long run. Whatever....

Anyone who lives in the state of Indiana has witnessed first hand a transformation in this states sports psyche. Indiana was once a BASKETBALL state true blue. But over the last 20 years a change has occured... and a HUGE change. High School football has taken over. And the Indy Colts and Manning are a huge reason, factor in IN destroying the state BB tourney and going to class BB and there you have it.

The IN state BB tourney WAS the greatest sports tourney H.S., college, or Pro in the entire US. It was awesome. The PTB went to class BB (thinking they could get more money, in reality the tourney now loses money) and now nobody cares about it anymore. Football has taken over. HS football stadiums are sold out. I live in Marion, the Bill Green arena used to sell out EVERY home BB game (7,000+) every game. They can't get 2,000 people in there now. The Wigwam in Anderson has closed.

Indiana has turned into a football state. And the presure for IU and Purdue to start producing is really ramping up also. Colt fans are COLT fans not Manning fans. Last season was a perfect example... this team sucked and the entire fan base stood by them the whole way through. Colt football is here to stay.

Rock ON Colts...

Classing the bb tourny really has ruined it. I miss sectional bball from my youth. It was like the superbowl

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Yep, winning the sectional for a "smaller" school was like winning the state tourney.   It really meant something.   Now you get 4 or 5  different champions?  I don't even know....   don't care.

 

The movie Hoosiers ...    was based on the Indiana HS BB tourney.     David took down Goliath.       We will never see another Milan again.   And that is a sad thing.   I really hate this "everyone gets a trophy society we live in now"  

 

Oh well... 

Classing the bb tourny really has ruined it. I miss sectional bball from my youth. It was like the superbowl

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Yep, winning the sectional for a "smaller" school was like winning the state tourney. It really meant something. Now you get 4 or 5 different champions? I don't even know.... don't care.

The movie Hoosiers ... was based on the Indiana HS BB tourney. David took down Goliath. We will never see another Milan again. And that is a sad thing. I really hate this "everyone gets a trophy society we live in now"

Oh well...

I agree.. There wasn't anything like high school basket ball back then

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I just have a feeling that Vasquez and Cary Williams are going to be 2 of our primary targets. Some don't think San Diego will let Vasquez get away, but I'm not sure they will be able to keep him no matter how hard they may try. San Diego only has 8.7 million available to spend on FA's. They have 21 of their own FA's, including 3 CB's, 3 LBers, and they have 4 OG's on their roster that are free agents. I don't see how they can possibly make a better offer than us. They are in pretty bad shape cap wise.

The other thing about Vasquez is that new Chargers coach Mike McCoy and his O-line coach Joe D'Alessandris have primarily used zone schemes...and Vasquez has been playing the man scheme Pep Hamilton is expected to employ. I think the Chargers may just let him walk. I hope so anyway.

IMO...a free agent RT should be on Grigson's radar as well. Some combination of RGs Vasquez or Geoff Schwartz and RTs Sebastian Vollmer, Andre Smith or Phil Loadholt would really cement that side of the O-line and free up draft picks for whatever else Grigson wants to do.

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The other thing about Vasquez is that new Chargers coach Mike McCoy and his O-line coach Joe D'Alessandris have primarily used zone schemes...and Vasquez has been playing the man scheme Pep Hamilton is expected to employ. I think the Chargers may just let him walk. I hope so anyway.

IMO...a free agent RT should be on Grigson's radar as well. Some combination of RGs Vasquez or Geoff Schwartz and RTs Sebastian Vollmer, Andre Smith or Phil Loadholt would really cement that side of the O-line and free up draft picks for whatever else Grigson wants to do.

 

I think you hit it on the nose.  Of course, we won't be the only team bidding for Vasquez, or Vollmer (who I think may stay).  

 

One thing we have going for us is that we're a team on the rise.  Every player in the league knows that, and knows there which way teams are trending.  $$$ sometimes mean more than championships to some guys, but we don't want those guys anyway.

 

I know it's not popular to say, but I have to admire the Patriots organization in that respect.

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I guess it was the theme of this thread but why would the colts only spend 90% this season when they've never done it before? Grigson and Irsay aren't going to leave 12 million sitting there when the team has so many needs. If anything they may front load some contracts to free up more money down the road. With needs on Oline and at corner and with talent available at both positions, money will be spent.

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In all honesty, we should sign Gregg Jennings if we decide to go big time. He's the ONLY player out of the big names who'd I sign. Has struggled with the injury bug lately but when he's healthy he's a top WR. If anyone saw the pro bowl, they saw how Luck with a big deep threat can light it up, albeit being the pro bowl. Imagine him, Wayne and Hilton. Luck would have MVP type numbers in just his second year.

Other than signing Jennings, keep mcafee, butler and Moala. Everyone else is expendable.

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Agreed. I really hate my generation. Bunch of entitled whiny brats. If I had kids, and they acted like kids act today, I would literally beat it out of them. Swear to god, I honestly can't stand the whiny turds complaining about how tough their lives are, when they haven't actually seen real life. I fear for what this country's future looks like. God Bless this country...

Yep, winning the sectional for a "smaller" school was like winning the state tourney.   It really meant something.   Now you get 4 or 5  different champions?  I don't even know....   don't care.

 

The movie Hoosiers ...    was based on the Indiana HS BB tourney.     David took down Goliath.       We will never see another Milan again.   And that is a sad thing.   I really hate this "everyone gets a trophy society we live in now"  

 

Oh well... 

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The other thing about Vasquez is that new Chargers coach Mike McCoy and his O-line coach Joe D'Alessandris have primarily used zone schemes...and Vasquez has been playing the man scheme Pep Hamilton is expected to employ. I think the Chargers may just let him walk. I hope so anyway.

IMO...a free agent RT should be on Grigson's radar as well. Some combination of RGs Vasquez or Geoff Schwartz and RTs Sebastian Vollmer, Andre Smith or Phil Loadholt would really cement that side of the O-line and free up draft picks for whatever else Grigson wants to do.

Rather draft a tackle. Most teams won't let good tackles leave. Also, you can get much better quality in the draft. Look out for Menelik Watson, FSU. The kid is a beast. Raw, but like JPP, has the numbers (for OTs) and the work ethic and plays with a chip on his shoulder. 

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Yeah, that talk about signing Boldin or Bowe is fantasy stuff. Grigs is too smart for that. He's already on record saying he's not going to break the bank for any one player unless everyone agrees they absolutely need him. No WR fits that definition.

I don't expect him to go after Long either. But for $20m he can pick up at least 4 really solid players. Or he could get Kruger for around $8m and then get two decent OGs.

Don't forget, though, you can alter the payments to either front or backload the deal. But I completely agree. However my thoughts were we need to spend the money on the lines and draft for the other positions.

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I don't think your numbers take into account the fact that the Colts will still carry only 53 players on the active roster. I believe the $40M estimate is a projection based on the current roster. They will lose unrestricted (and possibly restricted) free agents and free up additional cap space in the process. The new CBA makes signing drafted players a bargain versus re-signing veterans. So the net effect will be the free agent losses will offset the money it takes to re-sign certain free agents and draft picks.

 

 

 

I guess I'm not getting what you're saying. The 46 million we have available already takes into account all of our current free agents. We currently have 23 free agents that are no longer counting against our cap. That free's up the 46 million dollar figure.

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Rather draft a tackle. Most teams won't let good tackles leave. Also, you can get much better quality in the draft. Look out for Menelik Watson, FSU. The kid is a beast. Raw, but like JPP, has the numbers (for OTs) and the work ethic and plays with a chip on his shoulder. 

We might have to go that route since Vollmer, Smith and Loadholt may very well be re-signed by their current teams. The Bengals have a lot of cap space to keep Smith with, and Adrian Peterson is openly campaigning for the Vikings to keep Loadholt. We'll see what happens with Vollmer.

 

Unless they have ideas of flipping Castonzo to RT and signing a free agent LT, which I kinda doubt, we might have to draft that RT...and literally any RT we take in the draft will save contract dollars for some other area.

 

Watson or Dallas Thomas from Tennessee would be good RT picks in the 3rd round IMO.

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We really need to strengthen the interior of our line. Luck had no room to step up into the pocket and deliver a bullet because often there was no pocket, just pressure in his face from the middle forcing off target throws. Our guards and C were usually quite lacking in pass pro skills.

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We really need to strengthen the interior of our line. Luck had no room to step up into the pocket and deliver a bullet because often there was no pocket, just pressure in his face from the middle forcing off target throws. Our guards and C were usually quite lacking in pass pro skills.

Olsen hurt his back by always having to turn around to see who just got by him.

Grigs talked about the lack of continuity on the O line, due to so many injuries. I think that's a not so subtle way of saying he wants guys that can play an entire game without being hurt for two weeks. I suspect that's going to play into whoever he signs.

Castonzo is a starter. Out of the rest of the O linemen we probably have 5 good backups.

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Olsen hurt his back by always having to turn around to see who just got by him.

Grigs talked about the lack of continuity on the O line, due to so many injuries. I think that's a not so subtle way of saying he wants guys that can play an entire game without being hurt for two weeks. I suspect that's going to play into whoever he signs.

Castonzo is a starter. Out of the rest of the O linemen we probably have 5 good backups.

 

 

That's good stuff right there, and completely true. Olsen should not even be on an NFL roster, he is truly terrible.

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The Colts have 57m in total and wont spend anywhere close to 10m to resign our own. I thought we had to spend up to 99% of our cap not 90%. We have more then enough money to address every need on our roster. Expect us to make a huge spash come FA.

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How about the chances of bringing back Joe Reitz . Starting guard that shoudn't be too costy ? I think if he wants to stay and has realistic demands , the Cots will resign him.

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How about the chances of bringing back Joe Reitz . Starting guard that shoudn't be too costy ? I think if he wants to stay and has realistic demands , the Cots will resign him.

 

I think Reitz is good depth, but I think we could do better this offseason. If we did keep him, I'd like to see us significantly upgrade the right side of the line with a new RG and RT.

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The Colts have 57m in total and wont spend anywhere close to 10m to resign our own. I thought we had to spend up to 99% of our cap not 90%. We have more then enough money to address every need on our roster. Expect us to make a huge spash come FA.

 

 

I don't know where your getting you're figures, but they are not correct. It's well documented the Colts have 46 million in cap space and we absolutely will spend right around 10 million or more on our own free agents. Also the amount we have to spend is 89% of the cap and even that is questionable. The rule states that we must spend 89% over a 4 yr. period and not necessarily 89% each yr..

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This is how I see it:

 

There's 46 million in free space.

 

- Spend: 3M on rookie contracts (Probably 6 contracts)

  • 1st Round: 1.4M
  • 3rd Round: 500K
  • 4th Round: 487K
  • 6th Round: 410K
  • Compensatory: 400K

- Spend approximately 12.5M on the Colts' free agents (If they keep 16 of the 23 free agents, and one of those 7 not resigned is Freeney)

 

- I personally would like to have about 12M left over to save some room for potential trades, midseason signings, but most importantly, have some breathing room for next year.

 

Based on my calculations, the Colts will have about 18.5M to spend on free agents. (3 + 12.5 + 12 = 27.5M) (46 - 25.5 = 18.5M)

 

These are of course my calculations, and is most probably not what the GM is thinking. So, to answer your question, I say the Colts have 18.5M to spend in Free Agency. 

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This is how I see it:

 

There's 46 million in free space.

 

- Spend: 3M on rookie contracts (Probably 6 contracts)

  • 1st Round: 1.4M
  • 3rd Round: 500K
  • 4th Round: 487K
  • 6th Round: 410K
  • Compensatory: 400K

- Spend approximately 12.5M on the Colts' free agents (If they keep 16 of the 23 free agents, and one of those 7 not resigned is Freeney)

 

- I personally would like to have about 12M left over to save some room for potential trades, midseason signings, but most importantly, have some breathing room for next year.

 

Based on my calculations, the Colts will have about 18.5M to spend on free agents. (3 + 12.5 + 12 = 27.5M) (46 - 25.5 = 18.5M)

 

These are of course my calculations, and is most probably not what the GM is thinking. So, to answer your question, I say the Colts have 18.5M to spend in Free Agency. 

 

 

Im not going to pretend to know how much we will really save for in season transactions, but 12 million seems like it's way too high. I would think it will be more in the 6 to 7 million range.

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Im not going to pretend to know how much we will really save for in season transactions, but 12 million seems like it's way too high. I would think it will be more in the 6 to 7 million range.

 

As mentioned, not only do the midseason transactions need to be taken into account, but so do the increased paydays. What if a guy like Vontae Davis has a huge year next year, and the Colts must keep him. They're going to have to give him a big payday next year. When deciding about how much you spend this year, you MUST consider next offseason also. I came to the conclusion that 12M was a good number. IMO, 6-7 million is cutting it thin a bit. 

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This is how I see it:

 

- Spend approximately 12.5M on the Colts' free agents (If they keep 16 of the 23 free agents, and one of those 7 not resigned is Freeney)

 

That's where I disagree mostly. I don't think we keep 16 of our free agents, and I don't think the ones we keep will necessarily equal $12.5m in cap space for 2013.

 

Of course, that number is highly dependent on the structure of each individual contract, so it's impossible to say. But I only think we keep 8 or 9 of the following 10 free agents: Butler, Fokou, A. Johnson, McAfee, Moala, Powers, Reitz, Shipley, Tevaseu, Vaughn. I think we definitely keep the guys in bold, and likely keep the others. Anyone else we keep is on the fringe of the 90 man roster, and won't count against the cap at any point. The preseason roster accounts for the top 51 guys, and the final roster is only 53 guys, and the rest of the guys we have probably won't make it.

 

I would expect that collection of guys to come in under $10m in 2013, assuming no abnormal structuring of contracts in there (which there very well might be). And if for some reason Freeney is included in that list, then all of this goes out of the window pretty quickly.

 

Good breakdown though.

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As mentioned, not only do the midseason transactions need to be taken into account, but so do the increased paydays. What if a guy like Vontae Davis has a huge year next year, and the Colts must keep him. They're going to have to give him a big payday next year. When deciding about how much you spend this year, you MUST consider next offseason also. I came to the conclusion that 12M was a good number. IMO, 6-7 million is cutting it thin a bit. 

 

 

There are always going to be other contracts and more money coming off the books each yr.. That is when you restructure contracts or let aging veterans walk in favor of youth. A lot of ways around this issue.

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There are always going to be other contracts and more money coming off the books each yr.. That is when you restructure contracts or let aging veterans walk in favor of youth. A lot of ways around this issue.

 

Most of the time, the reason the franchise lets people walk is because the franchise cannot fulfill their contractual needs. If the Colts can save enough money from the year before, they could avoid letting people walk. Vontae Davis is going to expect a big payday next year. If he has a good season, the Colts almost have to resign him. If they do, they'll need a good amount of money to keep him. Things like that are the reason why you need to save money.

 

If a player has performed well, he will ask for more in his next contract. It's not as simple as "use the extra money we have because of our free agents, and just resign all of them." It takes more money to resign those guys, and that's why I think it's a must to have extra money from the year before.

 

After thinking about this now, maybe my original proposal of 12M wasn't enough!

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Most of the time, the reason the franchise lets people walk is because the franchise cannot fulfill their contractual needs. If the Colts can save enough money from the year before, they could avoid letting people walk. Vontae Davis is going to expect a big payday next year. If he has a good season, the Colts almost have to resign him. If they do, they'll need a good amount of money to keep him. Things like that are the reason why you need to save money.

 

If a player has performed well, he will ask for more in his next contract. It's not as simple as "use the extra money we have because of our free agents, and just resign all of them." It takes more money to resign those guys, and that's why I think it's a must to have extra money from the year before.

 

After thinking about this now, maybe my original proposal of 12M wasn't enough!

 

 

 

Well we'll just agree to disagree. No matter what a team does they are eventually going to run into cap issue's unless they want to be an annual cellar dweller. Look at some of the teams that are 18 to 19 million over the cap right now, Yeah they'll have to restructure guys, let some guys leave, but they will work it out. No team that is interested in winning will penny pinch their money for future considerations. They will figure out ways to structure contracts to add better players to their rosters.

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Well we'll just agree to disagree. No matter what a team does they are eventually going to run into cap issue's unless they want to be an annual cellar dweller. Look at some of the teams that are 18 to 19 million over the cap right now, Yeah they'll have to restructure guys, let some guys leave, but they will work it out. No team that is interested in winning will penny pinch their money for future considerations. They will figure out ways to structure contracts to add better players to their rosters.

 

Last thing I'll say on this is that the Colts will still have somewhere in the high teens for free agency targets, they'll have money for their draft targets, and plenty of room to sign their free agents.

 

The goal of every GM is to not get themselves into trouble salary cap wise. Just because you have a well structured, organized plan doesn't mean you'll be a bottom dweller. For the Colts, the future of their franchise is in place. What they do now is only add to the core of great young players they have now.

 

Just because you're comfortable with the cap situation doesn't mean you're a bad team.

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Priorities for free agency for me would be either Levitre or Vasquez to upgrade our guard play, Byrd or Goldson at Safety. If we could get two of those four, plus Kruger we would be much stronger next year and I believe that we could fit those under our significantly improved cap situation.

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