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#41 Hammer

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:26 AM

I wonder what percentage of Baltimore Colts fans transferred their allegiance to Indianapolis when the Colts relocated ? To most people from my generation in Baltimore, we had two franchises, the Baltimore Colts, then a twelve year gap, and now the Baltimore Ravens. We still celebrate our four Championships with the Baltimore Colts, and our 2000 Championship with the Ravens. Hopefully, we'll add another Championship this Sunday. The post 1984 Indianapolis Colts are just another franchise, albeit with familar colors and helmets.

 

As an Orioles fan, I don't count the St.Louis Brown's years, although, like the Colts, it's technically part of the franchise. It just seems convoluted to me to compare the Baltimore and Indy players in one conversation. It seems the NFL, Pro Football Hall of Fame, and other media types, have tried to whitewash history and pretend the Colts never played in Baltimore. It just seems odd mentioning Memorial Stadium and Johnny Unitas on an Indianapolis forum. I guess when you think of Unitas, you think of Baltimore, and when you think of Jackie Robinson, you think of Brooklyn, and not LA. I guess I never understood the mindset of the Baltimore Colts fan from Baltimore, who went with Indy, and not the Ravens, when pro football returned to Baltimore.

I'm a 60 year old lifelong Colts fan. Now, when 'you' hear the name Unitas, you may think of Baltimore but I think of the Colts! Now, go away!



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#42 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:14 AM

Mike Vanderjagt anybody????

 

Nah, not so much. OTOH, you did remind me I liked Dean Biasucci quite a bit.  :)


“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


#43 Hammer

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:14 PM

I watched "The Greatest Game Ever Played" on my living room floor when I was 9 going on 10. I was raised in a Chicago suburb but a fanatical Colts fan. My dad took pictures of me going nuts in that game and sadly they are all lost. Mamy of you may not know but the Colts and Bears used to be in the same conference. I believe it was the NFC Central, too long to recall. When the Colts went to the AFC I thought it sucked but that was long ago. I believe the Browns and someone else switched that same year.

      My biggest heartache as a Colt fan was the catastrophe of losing to the Jets in SB3. I simply never even thought it had a chance ot turning out like it did. It's funny that Don Shula known for the perfect season with the Dolphins is not equally recognised for the head coach that lost to the AFC and in those days it was a huge event and got him fiired as the Colts owner never forgave him for losing. Don't forget the AFC was considered then as a joke  primarily because it was.   

 

 In 1958, there were 2 divisions in the NFL. The Eastern and Western. Baltimore, oddly enough was in the Western. The AFC didn't come into play until after the merger of the AFL and NFL which took place the year after SB4. By the way King Colt, I still think SB3 was rigged.



#44 The Old Crow

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:16 AM

 

I'm a 60 year old lifelong Colts fan. Now, when 'you' hear the name Unitas, you may think of Baltimore but I think of the Colts! Now, go away!

 

Most think , including Johnny when he was alive, Baltimore Colts. When you think Peyton Manning, you think Indy Colts, hopefully not Denver Broncos. You can't re-write history.

#45 BLOODontheTRACKS

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:48 AM

I wonder what percentage of Baltimore Colts fans transferred their allegiance to Indianapolis when the Colts relocated ? To most people from my generation in Baltimore, we had two franchises, the Baltimore Colts, then a twelve year gap, and now the Baltimore Ravens. We still celebrate our four Championships with the Baltimore Colts, and our 2000 Championship with the Ravens. Hopefully, we'll add another Championship this Sunday. The post 1984 Indianapolis Colts are just another franchise, albeit with familar colors and helmets.
 
As an Orioles fan, I don't count the St.Louis Brown's years, although, like the Colts, it's technically part of the franchise. It just seems convoluted to me to compare the Baltimore and Indy players in one conversation. It seems the NFL, Pro Football Hall of Fame, and other media types, have tried to whitewash history and pretend the Colts never played in Baltimore. It just seems odd mentioning Memorial Stadium and Johnny Unitas on an Indianapolis forum. I guess when you think of Unitas, you think of Baltimore, and when you think of Jackie Robinson, you think of Brooklyn, and not LA. I guess I never understood the mindset of the Baltimore Colts fan from Baltimore, who went with Indy, and not the Ravens, when pro football returned to Baltimore.


The history of the franchiseis the history of the franchise whether it's in Baltimore or Indy. Boeing moved it's headquarters from Seattle to Chicago...and it's history moved with it. Cities and fans don't own the history of a franchise. despite the nfl attempts to whitewash history everyone knows the ravens = browns.

#46 Hammer

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:49 AM

  

Most think , including Johnny when he was alive, Baltimore Colts. When you think Peyton Manning, you think Indy Colts, hopefully not Denver Broncos. You can't re-write history.

Most from Baltimore think Baltimore. Most Colts fans from the rest of the country, I am convinced, think Colts no matter what city they reside. Johnny Unitas was my boyhood hero. His attitude after 1984 dropped him a notch or two regarding my admiration for him.



#47 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:05 PM

Most from Baltimore think Baltimore. Most Colts fans from the rest of the country, I am convinced, think Colts no matter what city they reside. Johnny Unitas was my boyhood hero. His attitude after 1984 dropped him a notch or two regarding my admiration for him.

 

^ ^ ^ This ^ ^ ^

 

I'm not from Baltimore/  But after a couple years with the Purple People Eaters, supported the Horseshoe. Before, and after the move.


“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


#48 mahagga73

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:10 PM

Good for both of you...and hang in there as Colts fans!

 

Even if things are not always so good.

 

Me and a couple other fossils here on the Forum can recall some great names like Art Donovan, Jim Parker and Lenny Moore, and other lesser known guys that played in the Unitas era. And then there were those couple long stretches since then having a top 5 draft pick almost every year...and striking out with several of them.

 

But it was well worth hanging with the Colts thru all those years of really bad football and a franchise that lost its direction for a while, to come out of it with Peyton Manning and the group you guys grew up with....and now Andrew Luck.

 

The Colts have cemented themselves as a great NFL franchise and are adding another exciting chapter with these new guys.

 

So enjoy the Andrew Luck era and whatever follows....hang with them if things get tough for a few years, because its very satisfying when they come back on top. :)

 

Good for both of you...and hang in there as Colts fans!

 

Even if things are not always so good.

 

Me and a couple other fossils here on the Forum can recall some great names like Art Donovan, Jim Parker and Lenny Moore, and other lesser known guys that played in the Unitas era. And then there were those couple long stretches since then having a top 5 draft pick almost every year...and striking out with several of them.

 

But it was well worth hanging with the Colts thru all those years of really bad football and a franchise that lost its direction for a while, to come out of it with Peyton Manning and the group you guys grew up with....and now Andrew Luck.

 

The Colts have cemented themselves as a great NFL franchise and are adding another exciting chapter with these new guys.

 

So enjoy the Andrew Luck era and whatever follows....hang with them if things get tough for a few years, because its very satisfying when they come back on top. :)

Hopefully we will get to see another title before we go pacolt. My dearly departed Dad saw 58-9 , 71. and 06. All I got is 06 so far and maybe 30-35 more years to go.



#49 mahagga73

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:15 PM

Most from Baltimore think Baltimore. Most Colts fans from the rest of the country, I am convinced, think Colts no matter what city they reside. Johnny Unitas was my boyhood hero. His attitude after 1984 dropped him a notch or two regarding my admiration for him.

I agree Hammer, I was also a Baltimore Colt fan and was pretty dismayed at the hypocritical and childish attitude of a lot of our great players from that era. I can't stand the Ravens, I actively root against them, I hate some of their fans classless attitudes towards Indy, like that pathetic excuse of a shock jock Nestor Aparicio. But they won it all again, so too bad for me I guess.  Unitas was just being stupid with the Ravens stuff. He looked really odd and out of place with that ugly purple jersey on. Now the Ravens franchise, stole from Cleveland, claims him like one of their own, just stupid.Not putting Colt's on their scoreboard 30 years later......



#50 mahagga73

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 01:58 PM

I've had the same underwear longer than you've been a colts fan.  ;) 

 

But anyway, Johnny U was my childhood hero.

 

I've had the same underwear longer than you've been a colts fan.  ;) 

 

But anyway, Johnny U was my childhood hero.

Bert Jones here.



#51 The Old Crow

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:00 PM

 

I agree Hammer, I was also a Baltimore Colt fan and was pretty dismayed at the hypocritical and childish attitude of a lot of our great players from that era. I can't stand the Ravens, I actively root against them, I hate some of their fans classless attitudes towards Indy, like that pathetic excuse of a shock jock Nestor Aparicio. But they won it all again, so too bad for me I guess.  Unitas was just being stupid with the Ravens stuff. He looked really odd and out of place with that ugly purple jersey on. Now the Ravens franchise, stole from Cleveland, claims him like one of their own, just stupid.Not putting Colt's on their scoreboard 30 years later......

Here's the bottom line, Cleveland still has a team and it is called the Browns. Browns does not equal Ravens, and it is different from the Baltimore scenario. Baltimore lost it's history, most of the best history, mind you, before the Irsay's purchased the team in 1972. I don't think Johnny hated Indianapolis, or anything like that, but he never played in that city and felt no affinity towards it. Same for the other old Baltimore Colts Hall of Famers, who all rallied behind the Ravens, and would prefer to be included in a Baltimore exhibit in the Hall of Fame. All the old Championships in the history books still say Baltimore Colts, so it's senseless for another city to claim all of this as part of their past. For Colts fans that followed both eras, it's like the DVD they put out. You have the Baltimore era, and the Indianapolis era. Even though it's considered one franchise, everyone regards it as seperate eras. If you told a Steeler's fan that Indianpolis won two Super Bowls in 1970 and 2006, they'd laugh in your face, and tell you the Baltimore years don't count.

Yes, technically the records follow the franchise, but most NFL fans would tell you something different. Merlin Olsen and Deacon Jones played for the LA Rams, not the St. Louis Rams, and nothing in this world can change that history. The reason the Ravens don't put the Colts on the scoreboard is because the Irsays broke two promises. One they promised to support Baltimore for an expansion team, which they didn't. Secondly, they promised to return the colors when a team came to Baltimore, which they failed to do. The Browns are still in Cleveland with their legacy intact. Baltimore has the split legacy of great Championships with two franchises, the Baltimore Colts and Ravens. Indy has their own legacy with Peyton Manning and their 2006 Championship. Unitas is Baltimore, Baltimore is Unitas, and Unitas we stand !

#52 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:38 PM

  The reason the Ravens don't put the Colts on the scoreboard is because the Irsays broke two promises. One they promised to support Baltimore for an expansion team, which they didn't. Secondly, they promised to return the colors when a team came to Baltimore, which they failed to do.

 

Can you prove via links or attached official documentation of these assertions of 'broken promises'?


“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


#53 The Old Crow

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:54 AM

Can you prove via links or attached official documentation of these assertions of 'broken promises'?

Check Baltimore Colts relocation to Indianapolis in Wikipedia. it says :

 

1.  Representatives of the city of Baltimore and the Colts organization reached a settlement in March 1986 in which all lawsuits regarding the relocation  were dismissed,and the Colts would endorse a new NFL team for Baltimore.  

 

Irsay and the Colts did not support expansion for Baltimore and broke this promise and settlement.

 

2. Art Modell attempted to get the Colts name and colors back to Baltimore when the Browns moved to Baltimore in 1996. Modell was told by Jim Irsay that the price started at 25 million to even consider it.

 

It was a golden chance to write a wrong that was never fulfilled.



#54 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:24 AM

Check Baltimore Colts relocation to Indianapolis in Wikipedia. it says :

 

1.  Representatives of the city of Baltimore and the Colts organization reached a settlement in March 1986 in which all lawsuits regarding the relocation  were dismissed,and the Colts would endorse a new NFL team for Baltimore.  

 

Irsay and the Colts did not support expansion for Baltimore and broke this promise and settlement.

 

So my question was/is- is there proof Indy actively voted against expansion?  I don't know, just have never seen any, but...

 

2. Art Modell attempted to get the Colts name and colors back to Baltimore when the Browns moved to Baltimore in 1996. Modell was told by Jim Irsay that the price started at 25 million to even consider it.

 

It was a golden chance to write a wrong that was never fulfilled.

 

But I thought you said  R. Irsay promised to give it back once a team went to Baltimore.  I know J. Irsay likely didn't and set a high bargaining rate to negotiate.  I still don't see proof yet they broke two promises.  I might to do some digging.  If these things were agreed up[on and binding, it must be in public record somewhere.

 

Wiki can be very informative, but they still allow unsubstantiated entries too, and when caught notate it.


“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


#55 slowsi

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:37 AM

I started my colts loyalty watching jack tredeu,bicket,billy brooks,albert bently,and company...



#56 The Old Crow

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:29 AM

So my question was/is- is there proof Indy actively voted against expansion?  I don't know, just have never seen any, but...

 


 

But I thought you said  R. Irsay promised to give it back once a team went to Baltimore.  I know J. Irsay likely didn't and set a high bargaining rate to negotiate.  I still don't see proof yet they broke two promises.  I might to do some digging.  If these things were agreed up[on and binding, it must be in public record somewhere.

 

Wiki can be very informative, but they still allow unsubstantiated entries too, and when caught notate it.

 

 

This was part of the 1986 agreement to drop litigation between Baltimore and the Indianapolis Colts. I believe the agreement stated that Irsay would support a Baltimore franchise for expansion if it occured within eight years, and that he would consider giving the Colts name back if this occured. In 1993, for example, Indy owner Robert Irsay , supported Jacksonville over Baltimore for an NFL expansion franchise despite the eight year promise. The only owner to vote for Baltimore were Norman Brahman of the Eagles, and Robert Tisch of the New York Giants. After two Super Bowl wins in Baltimore, and sold out stadiums since 1996, it looks like these two were clearly right, and Irsay and the other NFL owners wrong about the city that was selected. What people in Indy don't know is, before Irsay bought the team in 1972, you couldn't get a ticket to a Colts game from 1958- 1971. It was sell-out after sell-out like it is with the Ravens.  

 

After Modell moved to Baltimore in 1996, he approached Jim Irsay about buying the Colts name back for Baltimore, but was told the price STARTED at 25 million. Modell , who didn't have the cash, had to walk away . These were percieved as broken promises in Baltimore.  Some other interesting tidbits, as part of this settlement the Super Bowl Five replica trophy was awarded to Baltimore. It is also interesting that Indy doesn't hang any of the Baltimore era Championship banners, and the Indy Super Bowl ring from 2006, does not have a second diamond on it, signifying the Baltimore Colts win in 1970. Why keep this history, when you don't really want it . It's best to retire it in Baltimore, and let the Hall of Famers from the old Colts era, be under a City of Baltimore moniker.

 

If Jim Irsay did this, I think all would be forgiven. Most people in Baltimore have moved onto the Ravens, and the Colts have been in Indy a long time, and have their own history. What people have to understand is , most people in Baltimore will never let go of this history and heritage of the Baltimore Colts, and will not rest until this wrong has been righted. We do it for the old Baltimore Colts, who love their city, and want to celebrate their past triumphs with the fans that love them , and were there at the time. We want to celebrate these old heroes, along with past Ravens, at our stadium in Baltimore. People have gotten over the move, and can even stomach the horseshoes in Indy, but the heritage must return. It's the right thing to do.



#57 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:31 PM

  

Most think , including Johnny when he was alive, Baltimore Colts. When you think Peyton Manning, you think Indy Colts, hopefully not Denver Broncos. You can't re-write history.

 

But not so if you're a Colt fan from a youth that was never even within 3 states or Maryland.  Likewise today with me and the Rams.  You say Rams, I am just as apt to think Deacon Jones and Merlin Olsen as I am Kurt Warner and Marshall Faulk.  Not LA vs. St. Louis.  And I don't think Baltimore vs. Indy when the name Colts comes up.  Yes, it is true I know they were in those different cities and I respect that. It's just that unless you are from one of those cities, you probably associate a player more with the franchise/team than the city/team.  I know Baltimore wants the history, but how can you take it away from the franchise without changing their name?  The Rams and Cardinals have to also change theirs, as should have the Raiders, too. I also realize the Oilers (now Titans) and Browns (now Ravens) did, however.


“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


#58 schwamm

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:25 PM

Blah, blah, blah... Random attempts to justify ridiculous need to hate on the Colts nearly 30 years after they left B'more


Baltimore "stole" Cleveland's team in every bit the same way Indy supposedly "stole" from B'more. You can try to dig up all the BS you want about unkept promises or name rights, but how you can talk out of both sides of you mouth baffles me. Either both thefts are acceptable or both are criminal. Either way, it would seem your best position in the argument is one where you cork it.

If you are so interested in documenting the "histories", Irsay was saving his franchise from having it claimed by eminent domain. Modell didn't have anywhere near as good an excuse. I'm no fan of Irsay Sr., but cannot imagine being OK with having anyone just take my property away from me, especially if I could conceive of a way to prevent it from happening.

I am forever grateful for all the great players I've been fortunate enough to watch play the game with horseshoes on their helmets,

and I'm eagerly anticipating the opportunity to see which new Colts become the stars and fan favorites of tomorrow.


#59 The Old Crow

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:58 PM

But not so if you're a Colt fan from a youth that was never even within 3 states or Maryland.  Likewise today with me and the Rams.  You say Rams, I am just as apt to think Deacon Jones and Merlin Olsen as I am Kurt Warner and Marshall Faulk.  Not LA vs. St. Louis.  And I don't think Baltimore vs. Indy when the name Colts comes up.  Yes, it is true I know they were in those different cities and I respect that. It's just that unless you are from one of those cities, you probably associate a player more with the franchise/team than the city/team.  I know Baltimore wants the history, but how can you take it away from the franchise without changing their name?  The Rams and Cardinals have to also change theirs, as should have the Raiders, too. I also realize the Oilers (now Titans) and Browns (now Ravens) did, however.

 

 

There are a small percentage of fans like yourself that would follow a team to any city. I think the history occured where the event took place, but if you like the Colts, it's like the DVD, with two eras where you can enjoy both. I think the majority of fans follow the local teams in their city, and would not follow a team when they leave. There are a few Oiler fans that may have followed the Titans, but most moved onto the Texans. Irsay could simply vacate the Baltimore years back to Baltimore. Very few in Indy care about this anyway. If you are just a  Colts fan, and don't care what city they play or played in, the split histories are still there to enjoy, be it in Baltimore, or Indy.



#60 The Old Crow

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:25 PM

Baltimore "stole" Cleveland's team in every bit the same way Indy supposedly "stole" from B'more. You can try to dig up all the BS you want about unkept promises or name rights, but how you can talk out of both sides of you mouth baffles me. Either both thefts are acceptable or both are criminal. Either way, it would seem your best position in the argument is one where you cork it.

If you are so interested in documenting the "histories", Irsay was saving his franchise from having it claimed by eminent domain. Modell didn't have anywhere near as good an excuse. I'm no fan of Irsay Sr., but cannot imagine being OK with having anyone just take my property away from me, especially if I could conceive of a way to prevent it from happening.

 

My position is both were wrong in moving. Had Irsay, and the other owners, made the correct expansion pick of Baltimore, over Charlotte and Jacksonville, the Cleveland deal would have never happened. I think all would agree that Baltimore is clearly the better football market compared to these two cities. The Eminent Domain deal was extremely stupid by the Maryland legislature, and trust me, they are as dumb in 2013 as they were in 1984. You forget that Cleveland built the Indians a stadium, and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, while Modell was languishing in the old stadium. Both Modell and Irsay, as well as Al Davis , left solid NFL cities. Perhaps they had to leave, but for the love of god, start fresh in your new city with your own legacy. Indy has proven to be a good football town, but Baltimore should have never had to wait twelve years, and be told by Taglibue that they should build a museum. Baltimore is a town that has come to terms with these moves, but wants it's history back like Cleveland has theirs. If Baltimore didn't have the storied NFL history it has, it wouldn't be as big as an issue. We owe it to the old Baltimore Colts who want their legacy to be aligned with Baltimore, to keep this argument going, until Jim Irsay and the Pro Football Hall of Fame do the right thing.



#61 schwamm

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:16 PM

My position is both were wrong in moving. Had Irsay, and the other owners, made the correct expansion pick of Baltimore, over Charlotte and Jacksonville, the Cleveland deal would have never happened. I think all would agree that Baltimore is clearly the better football market compared to these two cities. The Eminent Domain deal was extremely stupid by the Maryland legislature, and trust me, they are as dumb in 2013 as they were in 1984. You forget that Cleveland built the Indians a stadium, and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, while Modell was languishing in the old stadium. Both Modell and Irsay, as well as Al Davis , left solid NFL cities. Perhaps they had to leave, but for the love of god, start fresh in your new city with your own legacy. Indy has proven to be a good football town, but Baltimore should have never had to wait twelve years, and be told by Taglibue that they should build a museum. Baltimore is a town that has come to terms with these moves, but wants it's history back like Cleveland has theirs. If Baltimore didn't have the storied NFL history it has, it wouldn't be as big as an issue. We owe it to the old Baltimore Colts who want their legacy to be aligned with Baltimore, to keep this argument going, until Jim Irsay and the Pro Football Hall of Fame do the right thing.

I guess it's all a question if who truly owns the legacy: the fans or the team owner. The team has a city's name attached, and that city's fans pay to watch, but the team owner takes the financial risks to field that team.

I take issue with the idea that a team owner works to assemble, field and maintain a team, but is somehow obligated to forfeit the history of what was done because he operated his business in an ungrateful city. I didnt forget that Modell was stuck in a crap stadium, i just dont really care. And as for your "solid NFL city" comment, why were they struggling so mightily for so long to fill the stadium?

Frankly, I really don't care what Bob may or may not have promised. The guy never earned much respect from me. His son, though, is something special. From my perspective, "Colts" is still first and foremost an Irsay legacy, and as a fan, I pay (through season tickets and merchandise) for the right only to enjoy that legacy.

Again, it's my perspective, but neither you nor the city of Baltimore own any more than the right to have enjoyed it while it was there. Perhaps if you (collectively) took a more active part in that role then, Memorial would have sold out more, the city could have justified investing in a better stadium, the State could have avoided its stupid impulse to steal the team, the trucks wouldn't have been hired, and we wouldn't be having this rediculous conversation.

I am forever grateful for all the great players I've been fortunate enough to watch play the game with horseshoes on their helmets,

and I'm eagerly anticipating the opportunity to see which new Colts become the stars and fan favorites of tomorrow.


#62 schwamm

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:37 PM

Another part of your arguement that gets my goat:

 

Somehow it seems logical to you for Cleveland to hold onto the Brown's legacy when the entire team of players ended up playing in Baltimore after the move, and the new Browns were essentially an expansion team... But the fact that the Colts team stayed pretty much in tact from '83 to '84 leads you to want Colts fans after '84 to give up any right to that team's legacy?

 

This thread is about appreciating great players from the Colts past, not about whether or not you think it's fair that Indy now "owns" the legacy.  You are welcome to hold onto your 30 year misery for as long as you'd like, but I'm not asking for your permission to appreciate the full history of this franchise, even the parts that predate Baltimore, if I so choose.


I am forever grateful for all the great players I've been fortunate enough to watch play the game with horseshoes on their helmets,

and I'm eagerly anticipating the opportunity to see which new Colts become the stars and fan favorites of tomorrow.


#63 The Old Crow

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:00 PM

I guess it's all a question if who truly owns the legacy: the fans or the team owner. The team has a city's name attached, and that city's fans pay to watch, but the team owner takes the financial risks to field that team.

I take issue with the idea that a team owner works to assemble, field and maintain a team, but is somehow obligated to forfeit the history of what was done because he operated his business in an ungrateful city. I didnt forget that Modell was stuck in a crap stadium, i just dont really care. And as for your "solid NFL city" comment, why were they struggling so mightily for so long to fill the stadium?

Frankly, I really don't care what Bob may or may not have promised. The guy never earned much respect from me. His son, though, is something special. From my perspective, "Colts" is still first and foremost an Irsay legacy, and as a fan, I pay (through season tickets and merchandise) for the right only to enjoy that legacy.

Again, it's my perspective, but neither you nor the city of Baltimore own any more than the right to have enjoyed it while it was there. Perhaps if you (collectively) took a more active part in that role then, Memorial would have sold out more, the city could have justified investing in a better stadium, the State could have avoided its stupid impulse to steal the team, the trucks wouldn't have been hired, and we wouldn't be having this rediculous conversation.

 

You have to understand that the history we are talking about occured before the Irsays swapped for the Colts. This would be pre-1972. Bob Irsay got the team in 1972, so all of this occured before his family owned the franchise, and he was in Chicago probably. As I said earlier, the Baltimore Colts had record sellouts before Bob Irsay ran the team into the ground. Yes, attendance was low in Baltimore during the final years, but I would also remind you the Indianapolis attendance was quite low the last years of Bob Irsay. When fans have no hope, many stay away. It's that way in most cities. I would also remind you that Baltimore has had sellouts since 1996, with combined with the years before Irsay, make it a great NFL city. I would also say that Indy has also proven itself to be a solid NFL city, with a great stadium.

 

If this was an Irsay legacy, the NFL would have awarded the Super Bowl 5 replica trophy to Indianapolis, and Jimmy would have put a second diamond on your 2006 Super Bowl ring. He was asked about this and basically said this was the Indianapolis Colts first NFL Championship. I actually think he showed alot of class and sensitivity in this act.

 

I'm not replaying the move from Baltimore , or the reasons why. All I'm saying is that Jim Irsay could do what Modell was forced to do with Cleveland, and at least give the old records back and put the Baltimore Hall of Famers in their rightful place. The Colts moniker will obviously remain in Indianapolis, and the Ravens in Baltimore. For people that are merely Colts fans, and have no affinity to the cities of Baltimore or Indianapolis, you can just enjoy both eras.

 

I'm sure alot of people in Indianapolis have alot of civic pride , as they should have. I've been to Indy many times, and it's a great city, good NFL town, nice stadium, and of course St. Elmos. Bob Irsay once told Baltimore, " This isn't your team, our team, this is my team, my family's team. " While that may be technically true, these were the kind of comments , and shopping the team around, that killed attendance and hope in Baltimore. If he would have said this about Indianapolis, I would aslo have been insulted, because these NFL teams are important to the cities, a great source of civic pride, and we , as fans, do believe it is our team. I was also a season ticket holder in Baltimore from 1967-1983, and as I was there, I also believe I have a right to this leagcy, as well as the current Raven's legacy.



#64 The Old Crow

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:13 PM

Another part of your arguement that gets my goat:

 

Somehow it seems logical to you for Cleveland to hold onto the Brown's legacy when the entire team of players ended up playing in Baltimore after the move, and the new Browns were essentially an expansion team... But the fact that the Colts team stayed pretty much in tact from '83 to '84 leads you to want Colts fans after '84 to give up any right to that team's legacy?

 

This thread is about appreciating great players from the Colts past, not about whether or not you think it's fair that Indy now "owns" the legacy.  You are welcome to hold onto your 30 year misery for as long as you'd like, but I'm not asking for your permission to appreciate the full history of this franchise, even the parts that predate Baltimore, if I so choose.

 

 

We have no Brown's legacy. The Browns are in Cleveland, with all their past Championships, Hall of Famers, and records intact. As a result of what happened to Baltimore, the NFL resolved to not let this happen again. All Baltimore got was the contracts of the current players from Cleveland, and the Ravens were considered an expansion team. To all the Cleveland apologists out there, I remind you, Baltimore got a lousy team that lost the first three years we got them from 1996-1999. They only started winning with Baltimorean Steve Biscotti got involved with the team, and helped Modell. The Baltimore Colts legacy, pre-Irsay, is for some reason in Indianapolis.

 

I'm fine if you want to celebrate both eras. I'm just telling you most fans in the NFL won't recognize the Indy claims to Baltimore era Championships. If you don't believe me, go into Super Bowl, or NFL Championships, and look at the scores and the teams that won. What you'll see is, for example 1970, Baltimore 16 Dallas 13. No mention of Indy, which as how most people from other NFL teams view it. When I look at the Super Bowl winning teams I see Baltimore three times 1970, 2000, and 2012, and see Indy in 2006. I'm not critisizing, but it is confusing when an NFL fan from another city sees this.  



#65 schwamm

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:15 PM

You have to understand that the history we are talking about occured before the Irsays swapped for the Colts. This would be pre-1972. Bob Irsay got the team in 1972, so all of this occured before his family owned the franchise, and he was in Chicago probably. As I said earlier, the Baltimore Colts had record sellouts before Bob Irsay ran the team into the ground. Yes, attendance was low in Baltimore during the final years, but I would also remind you the Indianapolis attendance was quite low the last years of Bob Irsay. When fans have no hope, many stay away. It's that way in most cities. I would also remind you that Baltimore has had sellouts since 1996, with combined with the years before Irsay, make it a great NFL city. I would also say that Indy has also proven itself to be a solid NFL city, with a great stadium.

If this was an Irsay legacy, the NFL would have awarded the Super Bowl 5 replica trophy to Indianapolis, and Jimmy would have put a second diamond on your 2006 Super Bowl ring. He was asked about this and basically said this was the Indianapolis Colts first NFL Championship. I actually think he showed alot of class and sensitivity in this act.

I'm not replaying the move from Baltimore , or the reasons why. All I'm saying is that Jim Irsay could do what Modell was forced to do with Cleveland, and at least give the old records back and put the Baltimore Hall of Famers in their rightful place. The Colts moniker will obviously remain in Indianapolis, and the Ravens in Baltimore. For people that are merely Colts fans, and have no affinity to the cities of Baltimore or Indianapolis, you can just enjoy both eras.

I'm sure alot of people in Indianapolis have alot of civic pride , as they should have. I've been to Indy many times, and it's a great city, good NFL town, nice stadium, and of course St. Elmos. Bob Irsay once told Baltimore, " This isn't your team, our team, this is my team, my family's team. " While that may be technically true, these were the kind of comments , and shopping the team around, that killed attendance and hope in Baltimore. If he would have said this about Indianapolis, I would aslo have been insulted, because these NFL teams are important to the cities, a great source of civic pride, and we , as fans, do believe it is our team. I was also a season ticket holder in Baltimore from 1967-1983, and as I was there, I also believe I have a right to this leagcy, as well as the current Raven's legacy.

You do have a right to the legacy. You just don't own it. I've never heard anyone say Baltimore can't celebrate the history of the Colts in their town. I just don't understand the logic that Jim has to somehow forfeit that history for Baltimore to be happy. It is his too.

I am forever grateful for all the great players I've been fortunate enough to watch play the game with horseshoes on their helmets,

and I'm eagerly anticipating the opportunity to see which new Colts become the stars and fan favorites of tomorrow.


#66 schwamm

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:32 PM

We have no Brown's legacy. The Browns are in Cleveland, with all their past Championships, Hall of Famers, and records intact. As a result of what happened to Baltimore, the NFL resolved to not let this happen again. All Baltimore got was the contracts of the current players from Cleveland, and the Ravens were considered an expansion team. To all the Cleveland apologists out there, I remind you, Baltimore got a lousy team that lost the first three years we got them from 1996-1999. They only started winning with Baltimorean Steve Biscotti got involved with the team, and helped Modell. The Baltimore Colts legacy, pre-Irsay, is for some reason in Indianapolis.

I'm fine if you want to celebrate both eras. I'm just telling you most fans in the NFL won't recognize the Indy claims to Baltimore era Championships. If you don't believe me, go into Super Bowl, or NFL Championships, and look at the scores and the teams that won. What you'll see is, for example 1970, Baltimore 16 Dallas 13. No mention of Indy, which as how most people from other NFL teams view it. When I look at the Super Bowl winning teams I see Baltimore three times 1970, 2000, and 2012, and see Indy in 2006. I'm not critisizing, but it is confusing when an NFL fan from another city sees this.

Interesting. I don't think I've ever heard any of my friends or fellow Colts fans bragging about any championships won while the team was in Baltimore, as if we somehow own that history. I think it is too far in the past for most to even care anymore, including me, and I'm old enough to remember. All I ever hear is people appreciating the history of the franchise, and understanding the broader picture of that history, including the less savory bits. Likewise, I've never heard anyone suggest Baltimore can't celebrate it's part in the history of the franchise, if they so choose.

I guess the whole Browns legacy thing is a little crazy to me. Owner, management, coaches, players, staffers, equipment, etc. all move to a new town. All that remained were a decrepit stadium... and the fans. Some of the best ever in Cleveland, but they had nothing to do with scouting the talent, drafting the players, creating the play books, executing the plays, taking the financial risks, or anything else of real importance to fielding an NFL football team, or to creating a team's legacy. They were only there to watch and be excited about it. I guess for my money, the legacy belongs with the part that moved, but you believe it is with the part that stayed. Your prerogative, but not something I understood when the NFL made the decision with the Browns, and not something I really get now.

I am forever grateful for all the great players I've been fortunate enough to watch play the game with horseshoes on their helmets,

and I'm eagerly anticipating the opportunity to see which new Colts become the stars and fan favorites of tomorrow.


#67 The Old Crow

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:40 PM

Interesting. I don't think I've ever heard any of my friends or fellow Colts fans bragging about any championships won while the team was in Baltimore, as if we somehow own that history. I think it is too far in the past for most to even care anymore, including me, and I'm old enough to remember. All I ever hear is people appreciating the history of the franchise, and understanding the broader picture of that history, including the less savory bits. Likewise, I've never heard anyone suggest Baltimore can't celebrate it's part in the history of the franchise, if they so choose.

I guess the whole Browns legacy thing is a little crazy to me. Owner, management, coaches, players, staffers, equipment, etc. all move to a new town. All that remained were a decrepit stadium... and the fans. Some of the best ever in Cleveland, but they had nothing to do with scouting the talent, drafting the players, creating the play books, executing the plays, taking the financial risks, or anything else of real importance to fielding an NFL football team, or to creating a team's legacy. They were only there to watch and be excited about it. I guess for my money, the legacy belongs with the part that moved, but you believe it is with the part that stayed. Your prerogative, but not something I understood when the NFL made the decision with the Browns, and not something I really get now.

 

It's an odd situation, for sure. If you look back on things with hindsight, the NFL was right to fight Al Davis when he tried to move from Oakland to LA. Good fans, great history. When Bob Irsay wanted to move, the NFL voted against it, but because they lost the Davis case, there was nothing to be done. Certainly, Baltimore made mistakes, as did Oakland, as well as the respective owners causing the move. There was plenty of blame to go around.

 

I think in a perfect world, if the city supports the team, and has good fans, if a team leaves, they should get a franchise immediately, and keep the old colors, history, etc. I would have prefered if Davis left Oakland, they would have been the LA something or other, and Oakland still had the Raiders. When Bob Irsay left, I wish he had retired the Colts name and history, and had a new name. I'm glad to say that Baltimore never became the Browns. Indy should probably have been first to get an expansion team back then, as I believe it is a better NFL city than Charlotte, Jacksonville, or Phoenix. Of course, we know it didn't go down that way.

 

It's too late for that right now, as Indianapolis loves the Colts logo and has their own history. I don't blame them, as a fan in Baltimore came up with the Baltimore Colts name and logo during a contest back in 1953. As I told my son, it's like we had two franchises, the Baltimore Colts that died in 1984, and the Baltimore Ravens that are currently here. Rarely in any other city, does a fan have autographed helmets of two teams in their collections, but that is how it is here. The old Baltimore Colts are in a Ring of Honor in M & T Bank Stadium, and the Johnny Unitas statue is right outside, soon to be joined by Ray Lewis. I don't mind sharing the legacy with Indianapolis fans, I just wish the NFL and the Hall of Fame would stop pretending the Colts never played in Baltimore. On the Jackie Robinson bust at the baseball Hall of Fame, it says Jackie Robinson, Brooklyn, NL. If you go to Canton, it has all the old Colts listed under Indy. I don't know, it just doesn't seem right.



#68 The Old Crow

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:09 PM

You do have a right to the legacy. You just don't own it. I've never heard anyone say Baltimore can't celebrate the history of the Colts in their town. I just don't understand the logic that Jim has to somehow forfeit that history for Baltimore to be happy. It is his too.

 

It just seems that the way it is set up, neither Baltimore or Indianapolis can celebrate this history. Indianapolis doesn't fly the banners, and neither does Baltimore. The Hall of Famers are confused about being listed in a town they didn't play in. As an Orioles fan, I have no interest in the 1944 AL Championship of the St. Louis Browns, and would prefer this being purged from Orioles records. Had the Baltimore Browns come into being, it would be totally confusing celebrating the history of the Browns 1964 NFL Championship over the Baltimore Colts. As an Indy fan, when I look at Super Bowl results, I would hate seeing Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts 2-2, with Baltimore appearing in front of the current city where the Colts reside. I guess the only ones that may not care would be a Colts fan, from say Alabama, who followed the Baltimore Colts and moved onto Indianapolis.



#69 Balzer40

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:20 PM

It just seems that the way it is set up, neither Baltimore or Indianapolis can celebrate this history. Indianapolis doesn't fly the banners, and neither does Baltimore. The Hall of Famers are confused about being listed in a town they didn't play in. As an Orioles fan, I have no interest in the 1944 AL Championship of the St. Louis Browns, and would prefer this being purged from Orioles records. Had the Baltimore Browns come into being, it would be totally confusing celebrating the history of the Browns 1964 NFL Championship over the Baltimore Colts. As an Indy fan, when I look at Super Bowl results, I would hate seeing Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts 2-2, with Baltimore appearing in front of the current city where the Colts reside. I guess the only ones that may not care would be a Colts fan, from say Alabama, who followed the Baltimore Colts and moved onto Indianapolis.

 

 

 

As a fan of the Colts since they came to Indy in '84, In a way I have always thought that it would have been better if they left the Colors, the Logo, and the history behind in Baltimore. I'm probably in the minority in my thinking, but I would have liked to have started fresh with our own look and new name that represented Indianapolis and only Indianapolis. Heck, it took 15 yrs or so for the announcers of our games to not inevitable mess up and say the "Baltimore colts" during a broadcast. I just think it would have been nice to have started our own legacy here and not still have a lot of our history be associated with Baltimore.


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#70 The Old Crow

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:34 PM

As a fan of the Colts since they came to Indy in '84, In a way I have always thought that it would have been better if they left the Colors, the Logo, and the history behind in Baltimore. I'm probably in the minority in my thinking, but I would have liked to have started fresh with our own look and new name that represented Indianapolis and only Indianapolis. Heck, it took 15 yrs or so for the announcers of our games to not inevitable mess up and say the "Baltimore colts" during a broadcast. I just think it would have been nice to have started our own legacy here and not still have a lot of our history be associated with Baltimore.

 

I think the oddest thing is when ESPN and the NFL do something like Top 10 All time Colts lists. They then group Johnny Unitas and Raymond Berry in with Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning. I'm sure it upsets the Indianapolis fan when a Gino Marchetti from the Baltimore era bumps out a Reggie Wayne, for example. I think the oddest example of this is when ESPN did their restrospective on the 1958 NFL Championship game between the Baltimore Colts and NY Giants, and had current NY Giants and Indianapolis Colts, comment on the greatest game ever played. They should have gotten comments from people in New York and Baltimore who were actually there when the game was played. I agree that Indy should have started their own legacy, unfortunately the way things are set up now, the link between Baltimore and Indy will remain because of the common history with the horseshoes. Unlike most franchise shifts where the teams leaving usually stink, and have no history, the Colts were part of two very historically significant games that shaped the NFL. The 1958 game in OT , and the 1969 loss to the Jets, which solidified the combined AFL and NFL.  I think it's fine to have the logos here now because it's been 29 years since the Colts left, and Baltimore has the Ravens. Baltimore finally put Colts on the scoreboard instead of Indy. I would even be happy if the 1958, 59, and 70 Championship banners flew in Indy and Baltimore.  Also, if you have to put the old Colts under Indianapolis, at least designate them as old Baltimore Colts in the Hall of Fame. You just can't get over that era of 1958-71 in Baltimore , anymore than you can get over 2000-2013 with the Ravens. The Indianapolis fan had a great era from 1998-2010, and 2012 onward looks promising with Andrew Luck. It's a very interesting dynamic.



#71 Truckin Sanders

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:55 PM

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