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#81 Coltsman1788

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:50 PM

Not a great game by Brady by his standards but he surpassed montana in playoff wins and yardage. Still has 3 TDs to go to pass him there. But right now they are neck and neck. I personally don't believe Brady needs the 4th ring to be considered better than him. I think he already is and the numbers bear it out both in the post season and regular season. Brady has done way more with much less talent.

Congrats to him for any records he did set.  I'm sure he'd much rather have the "W" though.  I typically respect posters of other teams but I was raggin on the Pats in the post you quoted only to get at the OP in particular...although I think you did make a similar thread.  However, you don't have the history of provocative antics that the OP possesses.  So yeah I was letting him have it a little.  But credit to you for showing up here to back your team at least.  We haven't seen hide nor hair of Snowy since the game.  :banana:

 

As far as you and most of the other Pats fans...my response to you guys was..."my condolences and congrats on a nice season.  It was just Ray Ray's year."  Best you'll get from me...being a Colts fan and all.  :whatever:


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#82 amfootball

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:51 PM

The chiefs also beat the broncos and 49ers that year

He had a very good year for them. Look, Montana is great. I just would not put him above Brady or Elway. They did way more with less and Brady is still playing. He may get to 20 playoff wins before he is done which is mind boggling.



#83 amfootball

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:52 PM

Congrats to him for any records he did set.  I'm sure he'd much rather have the "W" though.  I typically respect posters of other teams but I was raggin on the Pats in the post you quoted only to get at the OP in particular...although you did make a similar thread.  However, you don't have the history of provocative antics that the OP possesses.  So I yeah was letting him have it a little.  But credit to you for showing up here to back your team at least.  We haven't seen hide nor hair of Snowy since the game.  :banana:

 

As far as you and most of the other Pats fans...my response to you guys was..."my condolences and congrats on a nice season.  It was just Ray Ray's year."  Best you'll get from me...being a Colts fan and all.  :whatever:

Yeah, another tough loss in a big game but still happy to get to the big games. Not sure if it is Ray's year. I think the niners will be too much.



#84 Jules

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:19 PM

He had a very good year for them. Look, Montana is great. I just would not put him above Brady or Elway. They did way more with less and Brady is still playing. He may get to 20 playoff wins before he is done which is mind boggling.

 

I don't get the love for wanting to rank Brady ahead of past greats who IMO are better then he is despite his playoff win/loss record right now.

 

For the record, I do not put any of todays QBs above the classic all time greats either.

 

As great as Brady has been too I still have not seen enough of him since his last SB win even though he has won some playoff games. Against a physical defensive team such as the Giants or Ravens I feel he and the Pats tend to fold as their new found finesse ways since 2007 start to show through even more.

 

Quite frankly I am disappointed. I expected more from Tom Brady vs. the Ravens and especially after his awful showing vs. them last year in the AFCCG which he was fortunate to have survived. I have said this before here but Adam missed a FG in Baltimore, technically Andrew Luck in his first start in the playoffs on the road put up 1 less point then Brady did vs. the Ravens at home with better protection as a heavy favorite.

 

JMO



#85 Coltsman1788

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:47 PM

One thing about Joe...he never lost a Super Bowl.  4-0.  Brady won't touch that regardless of how many playoff wins he amasses. When one thinks of Montana you think only of the titles won.  When one thinks of Brady, you think of the Super Bowls lost as much as the ones he won. 


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#86 Mameluc

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:15 PM

I would put Montana third. I have never understood the obession with him to be honest. I know he played lights out in the SBs but he had the best football player of all time in Jerry Rice for most of his career and the best HC in Bill Walsh not to mention a team full of HoFers. The fact that the niners traded him away when he still had a couple of more good years in him tells you all you need to know. Young stepped in and won the SB that is how stacked those niners team were.
 
Both Brady and Elway did more with much, much less talent.

I am sorry what!? did more with less talent? i can believe that his Defenses the last years havent been that great but please my god Brady did Have Bill Bellichik..who is considered by many the GOAT or right there with Bill Walsh so i realy dont see how you omit that yet bring Bill Walsh as a way to discredit Joe...

And the first 2 superbowls at least is not like he willed his team...his team KEPT him on the game, and yes he delivered the game winning drives (FG not TD its fair to be pointed) but the only reason he could win the game was because of how the D held up...isnt that a talented team!? how on earth is having Randy moss wes welker, Gronkowski, hernandez, a 1000 yard runner, welker(108+ receptions) supposed to equal to less talent?

Also, just gonna bring this one time cause i dont want to start another PM vs Brady stuff, but people keep saying "his numbers are so high on regular season and his avg points in postseason is way lower(btw thats innacurate check the stats)".... how is scoring 0 points on the second half good? how is 13 points scored on the sb with the highest scoring offense in HISTORY not mentioned? i swear i dont get the media and fans... Brady and Manning games are pretty close but perception takes over.


I do agree on Elway btw

#87 braveheartcolt

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:28 AM

Get a good rush into Brady's face, and he is average. When he get's 5 seconds to throw, he's a super star......


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#88 Yehoodi

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:41 AM

He started every game in '05, '06, '07, '09, '10, '11, '12. In every year he has had the ability to start every game and a game in the playoffs he has not won a Super Bowl.

I know what you meant . . . I was just rasing you a tad . . . :-) . . .

#89 Yehoodi

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:47 AM

Joe Montana is the greatest ever. He took the cheifs to the afc championship game in the extreme twilight of his career

Just to be clear the Cheifs were a playoff team in each of the three years preceeding Montana's arrival in Kansas City . . . its not like he went on the 2000 Lions . . .

#90 dynasty13

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:51 AM

One thing about Joe...he never lost a Super Bowl.  4-0.  Brady won't touch that regardless of how many playoff wins he amasses. When one thinks of Montana you think only of the titles won.  When one thinks of Brady, you think of the Super Bowls lost as much as the ones he won. 

 

Maybe some do presently, but that wont be the case when history looks back. If Brady wins a 4th and in process goes to 6 Superbowls in his 14-16 years as a starter, THAT will be the story. 


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#91 Coltsman1788

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:46 AM

Maybe some do presently, but that wont be the case when history looks back. If Brady wins a 4th and in process goes to 6 Superbowls in his 14-16 years as a starter, THAT will be the story. 

Correct, Brady's story isn't completely written yet (and neither is Peyton's for that matter).  But if we are doing the comparison of Brady to Montana right now, it is what it is.  Even if Brady goes on to finish his career as you desire there are still several other things that will come to mind when thinking of him quite honestly.  There will always be the Spygate stuff that people will throw around to diminish his early Super Bowls.  If he ends up winning another one afterwards though it would help alleviate some of that but it hasn't happened yet.  Also the fact that his team blew the chance of the perfect season in the biggest game of his career won't just go away.  Losing twice to Eli Manning will also be remembered.  Montana has none of that kind of baggage attached to him.  All you can think of with him is that he just won Super Bowls...the pass to Dwight Clark...him walking off the field with his finger in the air...stuff like that.  I also think most NFL fans simply like Montana better.  There is a lot of Patriots hate out there whether warranted or unwarranted and that hurts how Brady is perceived.  One thing I will say for Brady though is that he has some personal records that Montana doesn't hold...like the TD record for instance.  That elevates him in the conversation.  His career would be comparable but because of some of the baggage attached to him it would be difficult to revere him above Joe in my opinion. 


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#92 braveheartcolt

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:54 AM

Correct, Brady's story isn't completely written yet (and neither is Peyton's for that matter).  But if we are doing the comparison of Brady to Montana right now, it is what it is.  Even if Brady goes on to finish his career as you desire there are still several other things that will come to mind when thinking of him quite honestly.  There will always be the Spygate stuff that people will throw around to diminish his early Super Bowls.  If he ends up winning another one afterwards though it would help alleviate some of that but it hasn't happened yet.  Also the fact that his team blew the chance of the perfect season in the biggest game of his career won't just go away.  Losing twice to Eli Manning will also be remembered.  Montana has none of that kind of baggage attached to him.  All you can think of with him is that he just won Super Bowls...the pass to Dwight Clark...him walking off the field with his finger in the air...stuff like that.  I also think most NFL fans simply like Montana better.  There is a lot of Patriots hate out there whether warranted or unwarranted and that hurts how Brady is perceived.  One thing I will say for Brady though is that he has some personal records that Montana doesn't hold...like the TD record for instance.  That elevates him in the conversation.  His career would be comparable but because of some of the baggage attached to him it would be difficult to revere him above Joe in my opinion. 

 

He may have lost the 'perfect season' game, but at least they had the guts to go for it.....


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#93 Coltsman1788

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:10 AM

He may have lost the 'perfect season' game, but at least they had the guts to go for it.....

Agreed. Respect to them for that.  But only disgruntled Colts fans who saw our team shy away from a chance at history ourselves will really care about that...and Pats fans.  Most other fans years from now will see that they were 18-1 with the one loss coming in the Super Bowl.  Great season but still second place.  :dunno:


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#94 dynasty13

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:11 AM

Correct, Brady's story isn't completely written yet (and neither is Peyton's for that matter).  But if we are doing the comparison of Brady to Montana right now, it is what it is.  Even if Brady goes on to finish his career as you desire there are still several other things that will come to mind when thinking of him quite honestly.  There will always be the Spygate stuff that people will throw around to diminish his early Super Bowls.  If he ends up winning another one afterwards though it would help alleviate some of that but it hasn't happened yet.  Also the fact that his team blew the chance of the perfect season in the biggest game of his career won't just go away.  Losing twice to Eli Manning will also be remembered.  Montana has none of that kind of baggage attached to him.  All you can think of with him is that he just won Super Bowls...the pass to Dwight Clark...him walking off the field with his finger in the air...stuff like that.  I also think most NFL fans simply like Montana better.  There is a lot of Patriots hate out there whether warranted or unwarranted and that hurts how Brady is perceived.  One thing I will say for Brady though is that he has some personal records that Montana doesn't hold...like the TD record for instance.  That elevates him in the conversation.  His career would be comparable but because of some of the baggage attached to him it would be difficult to revere him above Joe in my opinion. 

 

I agree with what you said, but I think what you also unintentionally did was make a case for why its even more difficult to compare players in different eras. The Patriots hate out there is based primarily because the rise of fan interaction through message boards coincided with when the Patriots were winning titles. Essentially, as fans were getting sick of the Patriots for winning, the over exposure to the arrogance that that success bred from its fan base was on full display. That media over exposure wasn't there for the 49ers...it wasn't there for the Cowboys. There's an NFL dynasty in every decade, but the Patriots were the first to have it in a time where everything gets reported, the ESPN hype machine, message boards and fan interaction...I think that goes a long way when talking about 'who fans like better'. With that said, it has nothing to do with legacy. Spygate will not influence the perception of Brady when history looks back. People will always hate the Patriots, but that means they were relevant. Look at Dallas...they haven't been relevant since they last won in '95, but people still hate them, and that foundation of hate began when they were winning as much as they did in the 90's. There's a reason people hate the Yankees. There's a reason people hate the Lakers. And when you think about it, those teams also had some of the greatest players that ever played.

 

Success breeds contempt....especially in today's world of media over-exposure.


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#95 GrizzColt

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

Obviously, Pats fans are way too engrossed in how kind history will be to Brady when most teams are trying to get the most Lombardi trophies.  You should be wanting to overtake the Steelers,  49ers and Cowboys, regardless of your QB.  Colts fans know this all too well now.  Bellichek throws players away easily and he will do the same thing to Brady and Brady will find a team his last year or 2.  It almost always happens.  



#96 braveheartcolt

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:06 PM

I agree with what you said, but I think what you also unintentionally did was make a case for why its even more difficult to compare players in different eras. The Patriots hate out there is based primarily because the rise of fan interaction through message boards coincided with when the Patriots were winning titles. Essentially, as fans were getting sick of the Patriots for winning, the over exposure to the arrogance that that success bred from its fan base was on full display. That media over exposure wasn't there for the 49ers...it wasn't there for the Cowboys. There's an NFL dynasty in every decade, but the Patriots were the first to have it in a time where everything gets reported, the ESPN hype machine, message boards and fan interaction...I think that goes a long way when talking about 'who fans like better'. With that said, it has nothing to do with legacy. Spygate will not influence the perception of Brady when history looks back. People will always hate the Patriots, but that means they were relevant. Look at Dallas...they haven't been relevant since they last won in '95, but people still hate them, and that foundation of hate began when they were winning as much as they did in the 90's. There's a reason people hate the Yankees. There's a reason people hate the Lakers. And when you think about it, those teams also had some of the greatest players that ever played.

 

Success breeds contempt....especially in today's world of media over-exposure.

 

How do you explain the hate for the Bengals then????


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#97 Coltsman1788

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:15 PM

I agree with what you said, but I think what you also unintentionally did was make a case for why its even more difficult to compare players in different eras. The Patriots hate out there is based primarily because the rise of fan interaction through message boards coincided with when the Patriots were winning titles. Essentially, as fans were getting sick of the Patriots for winning, the over exposure to the arrogance that that success bred from its fan base was on full display. That media over exposure wasn't there for the 49ers...it wasn't there for the Cowboys. There's an NFL dynasty in every decade, but the Patriots were the first to have it in a time where everything gets reported, the ESPN hype machine, message boards and fan interaction...I think that goes a long way when talking about 'who fans like better'. With that said, it has nothing to do with legacy. Spygate will not influence the perception of Brady when history looks back. People will always hate the Patriots, but that means they were relevant. Look at Dallas...they haven't been relevant since they last won in '95, but people still hate them, and that foundation of hate began when they were winning as much as they did in the 90's. There's a reason people hate the Yankees. There's a reason people hate the Lakers. And when you think about it, those teams also had some of the greatest players that ever played.

 

Success breeds contempt....especially in today's world of media over-exposure.

Great post.  You raise some interesting points particularly with the correlation of the Patriots rise to relevance and the dawning of the media/internet, etc.  Personally, I found the Pats fans most annoying back when the Manning Colts were just finding their stride and couldn't beat New England if their lives depended on it.  I recall the Star Boards being flooded by Pat trolls back in the day.  However, when the Manning-era Colts actually started winning a few of those match ups and finally won a Super Bowl of their own by going through New England, I noticed that the tone of most Pats fans changed to more of respectful banter as opposed to mocking condenscension.  As such, I don't really have an issue with most New England fans now.  However, I do still "sports hate" the Patriots but its more for their off the field antics (Belicheck's post-game loss media snubbing; Brady's Pro Bowl protesting pouting episodes, etc.) and the thumb their nose to the world attitude of their coach in particular.  As a team though I respect them for being annual contenders even if I don't care much for them.  So there is a certain truth to what you say, but there are also other factors besides just their success that could lead to the Patriots being hated.  Actually, the New England Patriots really just became relevant this millenium.  Whether they will continue to be hated for generations like the Yankees, Lakers, Cowboys, etc. will depend in large part on how well they are able to continue to sustain that success long after the Brady and Belicheck era has passed.  If not then that "hatred" will probably gradually fade over time which could actually help how Brady's accomplishments are perceived in the future.


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#98 Deathiltis

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:48 PM

The New England Cheaters. I have had no respect for that organization since 2000, especially since spygate. Vince Wilfork is the only likeable guy on that team.



#99 Deathiltis

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:51 PM

Get a good rush into Brady's face, and he is average. When he get's 5 seconds to throw, he's a super star......


#100 GrizzColt

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:33 PM

The press is finally starting to bury the Brady led Pats.  I thought it would never happen.  The same gurus who fawned over him/them, are now saying he was 27 years old when he last won and now he will be turning 36 and that it is quite unrealistic to believe he could somehow win one now. 

 

Brady is living life as Peyton lived it.  Great offense, poor defense, getting beat by teams with great defenses.  However, Manning managed to win one under those circumstances and Brady hasn't.  








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