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Manning's legacy is a done deal now - Greatest only in regular season


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#441 GoPats

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:08 PM

There was never any proof that Spygate actually lead to an advantage. Zero. Zip. Nada. BB was asked by Kraft on a scale of 1 to 100 how much spygate helped and BB said 1. You should know this.

 

I remember that story. Wasn't Kraft's response to BB something like, "Well, then you're a putz." (Meaning, if it didn't help, you just called everything into question for no reason whatsoever.)



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#442 amfootball

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:09 PM

Objectively outside Pats nation I dont think it can ever be put to bed until you guys win another SB. Maybe there is very little practical benefit for taking those tapes, for whose exixtence Belichick never denied, but mentally feeling more prepared could also be useful. Also do you really think a smart guy like Belichick would do anything completely useless?

 

On the other hand to talk about the achievement of Manning and Brady in regular season is really not the point for people's discussions here since Manning has an obvious edge.

Sure outside of pat nation that is the standard because it fits your bias. I get that. But don't say pats fans have that standard. A perfect regular season and seven AFC chmap games and two SBs with a potential third puts it to bed.

 

Not sure what your basis is for saying Manning is above Brady in the regular season when Brady has a high winning percentage, more divisional titles (10 to 8) and a bunch of passing records. Manning may have more yards and TDs but he has three seasons on Brady. If Brady ever gets those seasons back should Manning retire before him, he will catch up there too.



#443 tonychen

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:12 PM

So, Tony (I assume that's your name), a man you referred to prior to this loss was your "super hero"? He loses a game and is no longer a hero or super hero to you? Isn't that called a fairweather fan? I'll be a fan of the Colts and Peyton Manninig regardless. So I guess if the Broncos make it to the SB next year and win, Peyton Manning is your super hero again? I have the utmost respect for Peyton Manning as a person and a player for his accomplishments on and off the field. I thought super heros were for kids, but depending on your definition of a hero, maybe Peyton Manning is my hero among many other good people. 

 

I said it was not one game but multiple 1-and-dones finally changed my mind. Prior to Saturday's loss I used to believe many bad things on Manning were due to a lack of talent by his Colts team, but after having such a promising season the very similar bad things happened again and what's worse the game was ended by his bad throw. I then knew Manning had his limitations and should be responsible at least for a large portion of all the mishaps.

 

No offense ever to his classy as a person and accomplishment. He is the only OC-on-the-field and no QB can run an offense and no OC can execute a play like he does. But for him to win another SB before he retires I believe he needs to admit his limitations and seek for a little more help. Just my 2 cents.



#444 southwest1

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:16 PM

For everyone who is blaming the safety for giving up the TD bomb, Stop it! The game didn't end then. There was a whole extra quarter of football. The Broncos D, in over time, shut the Ravens offense down, that is, until Peyton threw a horrible pick which pretty much set the Ravens in field goal range.

It's not like the ravens got the ball first in over time and drove down the field and scored the game winning touchdown with out Manning having a chance. Manning had plenty of chances in over time. He just unfortunately had a bad quarter.

 

 

There was never any proof that Spygate actually lead to an advantage. Zero. Zip. Nada. BB was asked by Kraft on a scale of 1 to 100 how much spygate helped and BB said 1. 

Exactly gentlemen. The game was in Peyton's hands & both he & Coach Fox made a poor decision. No more pardons for either one from here on out. Also, this Spygate excuse and FG Vineterri blame game has to stop now. The Patriots got to the SB in 2012 & almost beat the NY Giants with either a Gronk or Welker catch in that game. NFL Commissioner Goodell refusing to release the tapes doesn't prove any gross violations regarding the alleged theft of stealing hand signals from opposing teams. It just means that Goodell say no value in opening up a subjective can of worms that no camp of supporters or detractors would be satisfied with.

 

If you believe the Patriots are innocent, you will cling to any piece of evidence that furthers that result. If you believe the Patriots are guilty, you will cling to any piece of evidence that justifies that result. Also, stating that the Patriots haven't won a SB since Spygate proves that the Patriots can't win without cheating is laughable to me. The absence of winning a trophy in that timeframe does nothing to add credence to that argument. If I said I was a tennis star who hadn't won a Wimbledon trophy since I was married to wife x & I later got divorced from wife x, could I blame failing to win another Wimbledon trophy in my career on my former wife x for no longer being in the picture? Absolutely not. The absence of a SB Championship since Spygate broke in 2008 doesn't mean that cheating lead to Lombardi hardware. Nor does it serve as a justification for a lack of a SB in 2012. 

 

For the record, NE won their rings legitimately. People must take a fair look at their own team's weakness's 1st before they blame the Patriots level of success on their own football team's vulnerabilities IMHO. 


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#445 Yehoodi

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:18 PM

I already went through this stuff on another post. I don't have time to argue my point again, but the game was lost on the "bomb play". As I said in a previous post, and this will be the only time I'll reference that again (I'm tired of arguing the/my point). If you could some how magically go through the entire game and assign some kind of value to fault for the loss, where do you honestly think Manning would stand in his fault value? How many mistakes did you see Manninig make during the game? How many mistakes were made by D? What key player(s) came out of the game to effect a change? The biggest play everyone is pointing to is the pick in double OT. What about the defense not performing as it had all season? What about the missed FG? What about Moreno getting injured? What about the big bomb at the end? They shouldn't have been in the position to throw a pick.

Was the post in this thread or another? . . . I would like to read it . . . just let me know the thread and I can find it . . .

As for your points I would like to say the following . . . the pick 6 was a bad bounce (i don't think it was PI frankly), the WR was looking into the sun and it was cold . . . the pass was a tad high but that was it from Manning, it was otherwise a fine pass . . . the fumble was a fumble and was past the tuck point, bad luck for Manning had he just dropped the ball it would of been a incomplete pass, like what happen to Romo in a game last year, but he lost control of the ball and tried to corral it and was able to grab it with both hands, so to that extent it was on mannning and just bad luck it was past the point of the tuck (whereas Romo was saved by dropping the ball). . . the final pick was on manning . . .

The D did not play lights out, but on the other hand were not awful either, they gave up 21 points on hail marys that work about once in 15 tries, the other 14 points were on the pick 6 and the short field based on Manning's fumble . . . so not great, but not awful, bad luck maybe

the team was helped by 14 points on ST, the missed FG i believe was from beyond his range and, like a golfer trying to kill a ball, you can hit the dirt before the ball . . .

so was the game on manning . . . no it was not . . . nor was it totally on the D either . . . the one thing that i will say is that in games like that, you really need to avoid trying to make a mistake, and it has happened to everyone . . .so to that extent I feel that it was ill advise for Manning not to throw away the ball OT, was it the be all end all, no of coarse not, but merely a situation were a mistake was made, like the safety play and coaching, could not be afforded . . .

hey all QBs have had mistakes and many times have made ones that are just a mere part of a game . . . this is simple what happened . . . so the pick, like the coaching and safety play, were all parts of the loss . . . alas, when your team around you are making mistakes it carries an extra burden on teammates not to make a mistake themselves . . .

#446 tonychen

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

Sure outside of pat nation that is the standard because it fits your bias. I get that. But don't say pats fans have that standard. A perfect regular season and seven AFC chmap games and two SBs with a potential third puts it to bed.

 

Not sure what your basis is for saying Manning is above Brady in the regular season when Brady has a high winning percentage, more divisional titles (10 to 8) and a bunch of passing records. Manning may have more yards and TDs but he has three seasons on Brady. If Brady ever gets those seasons back should Manning retire before him, he will catch up there too.

 

If you call people's not having your "bias" as Pats fans toward the Pats a "bias" then maybe I am biased :)

 

I think it is also a general agreement outside Pats nation that Manning has a little bit but "statistically significant" more success in regular seasons. It is backed up by his 4 and maybe 5 regular season MVPs. Yes Brady broke Manning's TD record but you also should check how many of them are from intentionally running up scores even when the game is already out-of-reach, while Manning's old record was made even with some games not played into the 4th qtr. (BTW a record is a record so nobody care about how it comes from, and I have always preferred Brady over Manning in my Fantasy Football leagues since Brady gets you pts regardless game situation). But if you are Pats fans, having your bias is what you are supposed to be and there is nothing wrong in it.



#447 18Manning

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

Was the post in this thread or another? . . . I would like to read it . . . just let me know the thread and I can find it . . .

As for your points I would like to say the following . . . the pick 6 was a bad bounce (i don't think it was PI frankly), the WR was looking into the sun and it was cold . . . the pass was a tad high but that was it from Manning, it was otherwise a fine pass . . . the fumble was a fumble and was past the tuck point, bad luck for Manning had he just dropped the ball it would of been a incomplete pass, like what happen to Romo in a game last year, but he lost control of the ball and tried to corral it and was able to grab it with both hands, so to that extent it was on mannning and just bad luck it was past the point of the tuck (whereas Romo was saved by dropping the ball). . . the final pick was on manning . . .

The D did not play lights out, but on the other hand were not awful either, they gave up 21 points on hail marys that work about once in 15 tries, the other 14 points were on the pick 6 and the short field based on Manning's fumble . . . so not great, but not awful, bad luck maybe

the team was helped by 14 points on ST, the missed FG i believe was from beyond his range and, like a golfer trying to kill a ball, you can hit the dirt before the ball . . .

so was the game on manning . . . no it was not . . . nor was it totally on the D either . . . the one thing that i will say is that in games like that, you really need to avoid trying to make a mistake, and it has happened to everyone . . .so to that extent I feel that it was ill advise for Manning not to throw away the ball OT, was it the be all end all, no of coarse not, but merely a situation were a mistake was made, like the safety play and coaching, could not be afforded . . .

hey all QBs have had mistakes and many times have made ones that are just a mere part of a game . . . this is simple what happened . . . so the pick, like the coaching and safety play, were all parts of the loss . . . alas, when your team around you are making mistakes it carries an extra burden on teammates not to make a mistake themselves . . .

 

I pretty much agree with everything you said here. Anyone I've disagreed with basically put the loss on Manning alone (the pick in double OT was the loser as far as they're concerned). I'd have to look back to see where I commeneted before, but I'm basically in agreement with what you posted.


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#448 amfootball

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:36 PM

If you call people's not having your "bias" as Pats fans toward the Pats a "bias" then maybe I am biased :)

 

I think it is also a general agreement outside Pats nation that Manning has a little bit but "statistically significant" more success in regular seasons. It is backed up by his 4 and maybe 5 regular season MVPs. Yes Brady broke Manning's TD record but you also should check how many of them are from intentionally running up scores even when the game is already out-of-reach, while Manning's old record was made even with some games not played into the 4th qtr. (BTW a record is a record so nobody care about how it comes from, and I have always preferred Brady over Manning in my Fantasy Football leagues since Brady gets you pts regardless game situation). But if you are Pats fans, having your bias is what you are supposed to be and there is nothing wrong in it.

50TDs is 50 TDs. Junk time usually began in the middle of the second quarter in '07 because Brady put up so many points so fast. That record is the equilavent of the home run record in baseball.

 

If we are judging regular seasons, wouldn't the barometer actually be winning? Brady has won more than Manning in terms of winning percentage and divisional titles. Not sure what else there is to debate? Brady's TD to INT ratio is significantly better than Manning and his stats are not all that far behind if you factor in Manning's three seasons he has over Brady. In terms of the MVPs, Brady is the only one that has a unanimous MVP and also received 49 out of 50 in 2007. Both of Brady's MVP seasons were historic. Manning has four and may get five although I think AP will get it. So, the MVPS are really not a strong point for Manning. If Brady had none, I could see it but he is right there. He will most likely finish second or third in voting this year just like last year so he is always right there year and year out. Don't forget too that Brayd threw for more than 5,000 yards last year something Manning has never done and just broke Unitas' consecutive game TD streak with only 6 to go to catch Brees.



#449 Yehoodi

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:28 PM

I pretty much agree with everything you said here. Anyone I've disagreed with basically put the loss on Manning alone (the pick in double OT was the loser as far as they're concerned). I'd have to look back to see where I commeneted before, but I'm basically in agreement with what you posted.

agreed . . .

yes . . . it is tough when people try to pin something on one person . . . and tough too when you are the last one to turn off the lights and everyone is going to blame you . . . but for me unless there are clear bonehead mistakes . . . it is generally a mix among all players and coaches and of coarse the other team performing well . . . alas, it was a game in which you could not afford a mistake and sadly for Manning there was no time for make up after the pick . . .

I remember late in SB 38 leading by 5 Brady the pats were driving down the field in a similiar one score you can't make a mistake game. we were in the red zone and thus had a sure 3 points to make it at least a 8 point game . . . Brady rolled out and threw an inexcusable pick, as opposed to throwinng the ball through the back of the endzone . . . 3 plays later on 3rd and long , Delomne throws an 85 yard TD pass and now we are down by 2 points . . . an alsolute killer, but fortunately we had some time left and drove the field for a TD to go ahead . . . but not the less Brady threw a back pick but, unlike Manning, had time to correct the mistake . . . the Brady pick is mostly forgotten about, but i have not, it was a costly mistake that fortunately Brady had time to make up for, had it been later in the game, result of the game could of been different . . .

you may of already seen this article, but its a good read . . .

http://bleacherrepor...in-the-playoffs

#450 GoPats

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:41 PM

I think it is also a general agreement outside Pats nation that Manning has a little bit but "statistically significant" more success in regular seasons.

 

 

My take on that, which I think is a fair one, is that Manning has been more consistent, but Brady's best seasons are better than Manning's.

 

Take passing yards for instance. Overall Manning has more 4,000+ yard seasons, with a career high of 4,700. On the flip side, Brady has not had as many 4,000 yard seasons, but has three where he eclipsed Manning's career season-high in that category. He also has a 5,000 yard season under his belt, whereas Manning doesn't.

 

It's similar when you look at other statistics, such as TDs. Brady's two best seasons were 50 and 39; Manning's were 49 and 37 (this season, prior to that it would have been 33).

 

Back in the day, Manning had a clear edge statistically, but at this point they're pretty close.



#451 18Manning

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

agreed . . .

yes . . . it is tough when people try to pin something on one person . . . and tough too when you are the last one to turn off the lights and everyone is going to blame you . . . but for me unless there are clear bonehead mistakes . . . it is generally a mix among all players and coaches and of coarse the other team performing well . . . alas, it was a game in which you could not afford a mistake and sadly for Manning there was no time for make up after the pick . . .

I remember late in SB 38 leading by 5 Brady the pats were driving down the field in a similiar one score you can't make a mistake game. we were in the red zone and thus had a sure 3 points to make it at least a 8 point game . . . Brady rolled out and threw an inexcusable pick, as opposed to throwinng the ball through the back of the endzone . . . 3 plays later on 3rd and long , Delomne throws an 85 yard TD pass and now we are down by 2 points . . . an alsolute killer, but fortunately we had some time left and drove the field for a TD to go ahead . . . but not the less Brady threw a back pick but, unlike Manning, had time to correct the mistake . . . the Brady pick is mostly forgotten about, but i have not, it was a costly mistake that fortunately Brady had time to make up for, had it been later in the game, result of the game could of been different . . .

you may of already seen this article, but its a good read . . .

http://bleacherrepor...in-the-playoffs

 

That's a great article. But, even with all that data at hand, many will still blame Manning entirely. If you look at the post immediately below the article, there's a prime example. It amazes me that so many fans can't seem to look at an entire game to draw a logical conclusion. Most will only consider Peyton Manning is the common variable, therefore the reason for the losses.


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#452 Yehoodi

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

If you call people's not having your "bias" as Pats fans toward the Pats a "bias" then maybe I am biased :)
 
I think it is also a general agreement outside Pats nation that Manning has a little bit but "statistically significant" more success in regular seasons. It is backed up by his 4 and maybe 5 regular season MVPs. Yes Brady broke Manning's TD record but you also should check how many of them are from intentionally running up scores even when the game is already out-of-reach, while Manning's old record was made even with some games not played into the 4th qtr. (BTW a record is a record so nobody care about how it comes from, and I have always preferred Brady over Manning in my Fantasy Football leagues since Brady gets you pts regardless game situation). But if you are Pats fans, having your bias is what you are supposed to be and there is nothing wrong in it.

I am not going to get into overall career stats comparison but did want to respond to your 49/50 points . . . when you get some time check out how many possessions Brady and Manning both played after the game was in hand . . . and check out how many possessions Cassell played versus Sorgie . . . and check out whether there was a drop off or not in the number of rushing TD . . . what you find when you check these facts out will very likey surprise you and will change your perceptions on the two seasons . . .

yes Manning did not play much in the last game which was a franchise decision, but so is not having a roof and having your team play in a monsoon and no TDs are scored by either offense . . .

#453 tonychen

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

I am not going to get into overall career stats comparison but did want to respond to your 49/50 points . . . when you get some time check out how many possessions Brady and Manning both played after the game was in hand . . . and check out how many possessions Cassell played versus Sorgie . . . and check out whether there was a drop off or not in the number of rushing TD . . . what you find when you check these facts out will very likey surprise you and will change your perceptions on the two seasons . . .

yes Manning did not play much in the last game which was a franchise decision, but so is not having a roof and having your team play in a monsoon and no TDs are scored by either offense . . .

 

2004 Colts regular season stats Passing

 

 

Player Att Cmp Pct Yds Avg Lg TD TD% Int Int% Sack Loss Rating Peyton Manning 497 336 67.6 4557 9.17 80t 49 9.9 10 2.0 13 101 121.1 Jim Sorgi 29 17 58.6 175 6.03 71t 2 6.9 0 0.0 1 8 99.1 Jeff Saturday 1 0 0.0 0 0.00 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 39.6 TOTALS 527 353 67.0 4732 8.98 80t 51 9.7 10 1.9 14 109 119.7

 

 

2007 Pats regular season stats Passing

 

 

Player Att Cmp Pct Yds Avg Lg TD TD% Int Int% Sack Loss Rating Tom Brady 578 398 68.9 4806 8.31 69t 50 8.7 8 1.4 21 128 117.2 Matt Cassel 7 4 57.1 38 5.43 21 0 0.0 1 14.3 0 0 32.7 Matt Gutierrez 1 1 100.0 15 15.00 15 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 118.8 TOTALS 586 403 68.8 4859 8.29 69t 50 8.5 9 1.5 21 128 116.0

 

attempts/game

07 Brady 36.125

04 Manning 31.0625

 

By qtr

2004 Colts regular season stats Passing

 

BY QUARTER ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A YDS/G LONG TD TD% INT INT% SACK YDSL RATE Quarter = 1 141 95 67.4 1216 8.7 0.0 59 15 10.6 2 1.4 2 16 124.2 Quarter = 2 155 106 68.4 1378 9.1 0.0 71 17 11.0 1 0.6 5 32 130.8 Quarter = 3 110 80 72.7 1152 10.7 0.0 80 12 10.9 4 3.6 3 26 128.5 Quarter = 4 119 70 58.8 819 7.2 0.0 45 7 5.9 3 2.5 4 35 90.1 Overtime 2 2 100.0 58 29.0 0.0 35 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 118.8

 

 

2007 Pats regular season passing

 

 

BY QUARTER ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A YDS/G LONG TD TD% INT INT% SACK YDSL RATE Quarter = 1 152 106 69.7 1192 8.0 0.0 43 12 7.9 0 0.0 5 31 120.0 Quarter = 2 167 120 71.9 1358 8.4 0.0 63 20 12.0 4 2.4 6 37 126.4 Quarter = 3 122 83 68.0 955 8.0 0.0 56 8 6.6 3 2.5 4 21 103.7 Quarter = 4 145 94 64.8 1226 8.7 0.0 69 10 6.9 2 1.4 6 39 109.7



#454 Snowglobe

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:21 PM

I remember that story. Wasn't Kraft's response to BB something like, "Well, then you're a putz." (Meaning, if it didn't help, you just called everything into question for no reason whatsoever.)

 

He called him a * lol


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#455 Yehoodi

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:39 PM

 
  
attempts/game
07 Brady 36.125
04 Manning 31.0625
 
  

did you get a chance to look up the tidbits I ask you to? ...

btw where exactly on the field did these pass attempts occur? where there on thier own 20? between the 20s? did Brady have more pass attempts into the endzone, or WR running into endwzone? where there more pass attempts because the pats score more TDs and therefore were extending more drives and thus more passing while Manning was on the sideline as his drive stalled . . . ? Did pats (i.e Welker) run more WR screens in leau of run plays and gain 3-7 yards on these plays, as opposed to having welker run down field yo gain 10-15 thereby required more pass attempt to yeild the same yardage, did the pats get to throw extra pass attempts and got to score two TDs on the same possession?

see your problem with your stat? . . .

you quoted me stats that have no real meaning as there are numerous ways where these pass attempts fell . . . if you can find me a stat that says Brady threw many more passess in the red zone and/or resutling in a possible TD (like chucking the ball 50 times into the endzone from the oppoenents 35 yard line), then I might think about it . . . but a blanket stat which refers to something that has very little correlation to a passing TD has no meaning in my book . . .

for just one instance

in three possession we have the following between two QBs

QB 1A starts from his 20 and has three drives of 80 yards, 8 pass attempts each, 6 completions each and three TDS, for a total of 3 TDs and 24 pass attempts

QB 1B starts from his 20 has two similar drives but one the third gets one first down then punts with 4 pass attempts 2 completion on the third drive

so overall we have QB 1A with 3 TDs and 24 pass attempts and QB 1B with 2 TDs and 20 pass attempts . . . whcih QB had the better game? Yes QB 1A had more pass attempts but that due to the fact that he kept one drive going and I am not going to qualify his extrat TD merely becuae he was on the field and had more attempts . . .

and to just bring things full circle QB 1A is Brady and QB 1B is Manning, see how i got that to work out . . . :)

#456 jvan1973

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:43 PM

did you get a chance to loll up the tidbits I ask you to? ...

btw where exactly on the field did these pass attempts occur? where there on thier own 20? between the 20s? did Brady have more pass attempts into the endzone, or WR running into endwzone? where there more pass attempts because the pats score more TDs and therefore were extending more drives and thus more passing while Manning was on the sideline as his drive stalled . . . ? Did pats (i.e Welker) run more WR screens in leau of run plays and gain 3-7 yards on these plays, as opposed to having welker run down field yo gain 10-15 thereby required more pass attempt to yeild the same yardage, did the pats get to throw extra pass attempts and got to score two TDs on the same possession?

see your problem with your stat? . . .

you quoted me stats that have no real meaning as there are numerous ways where these pass attempts fell . . . if you can find me a stat that says Brady threw many more passess in the red zone and/or resutling in a possible TD (like chucking the ball 50 times into the endzone from the oppoenents 35 yard line), then I might think about it . . . but a blanket stat which refers to something that has very little correlation to a passing TD has no meaning in my book . . .

for just one instance

in three possession we have the following between two QBs

QB 1A starts from his 20 and has three drives of 80 yards, 8 pass attempts each, 6 completions each and three TDS, for a total of 3 TDs and 24 pass attempts

QB 1B starts from his 20 has two similar drives but one the third gets one first down then punts with 4 pass attempts 2 completion on the third drive

so overall we have QB 1A with 3 TDs and 24 pass attempts and QB 1B with 2 TDs and 20 pass attempts . . . whcih QB had the better game? Yes QB 1A had more pass attempts but that due to the fact that he kept one drive going and I am not going to qualify his extrat TD merely becuae he was on the field and had more attempts . . .

and to just bring things full circle QB 1A is Brady and QB 1B is Manning, see how i got that to work out . . . :)

Manning sat on the bench in at least for quarters in 2004. Brady played every snap

#457 tonychen

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

did you get a chance to look up the tidbits I ask you to? ...

btw where exactly on the field did these pass attempts occur? where there on thier own 20? between the 20s? did Brady have more pass attempts into the endzone, or WR running into endwzone? where there more pass attempts because the pats score more TDs and therefore were extending more drives and thus more passing while Manning was on the sideline as his drive stalled . . . ? Did pats (i.e Welker) run more WR screens in leau of run plays and gain 3-7 yards on these plays, as opposed to having welker run down field yo gain 10-15 thereby required more pass attempt to yeild the same yardage, did the pats get to throw extra pass attempts and got to score two TDs on the same possession?

see your problem with your stat? . . .

you quoted me stats that have no real meaning as there are numerous ways where these pass attempts fell . . . if you can find me a stat that says Brady threw many more passess in the red zone and/or resutling in a possible TD (like chucking the ball 50 times into the endzone from the oppoenents 35 yard line), then I might think about it . . . but a blanket stat which refers to something that has very little correlation to a passing TD has no meaning in my book . . .

for just one instance

in three possession we have the following between two QBs

QB 1A starts from his 20 and has three drives of 80 yards, 8 pass attempts each, 6 completions each and three TDS, for a total of 3 TDs and 24 pass attempts

QB 1B starts from his 20 has two similar drives but one the third gets one first down then punts with 4 pass attempts 2 completion on the third drive

so overall we have QB 1A with 3 TDs and 24 pass attempts and QB 1B with 2 TDs and 20 pass attempts . . . whcih QB had the better game? Yes QB 1A had more pass attempts but that due to the fact that he kept one drive going and I am not going to qualify his extrat TD merely becuae he was on the field and had more attempts . . .

and to just bring things full circle QB 1A is Brady and QB 1B is Manning, see how i got that to work out . . . :)

 

I dont have more stats to show since it will take more than a couple of days and a report over 2 pages but if you are willing to show them I will be waiting for you here. BTW you asked for Sorgi vs. Cassel it is 29 att vs. 7.

 

Manning did not play the majority of the last game and at least 4 qtrs (per jvan) in other games, while we all know Brady played every game in order to break that record until almost the last min of week 17 against Giants.



#458 braveheartcolt

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:54 PM

Right, my previous attempt to halt this ridiculous squabble over some meaningless 'virtual' greatness award failed, so I'll try again...

 

Brady is the best...ever. Can we stop now?

 

PS - after Manning threw his last ball ever in the play-offs last weekend, I really wanted to say, 'why the long face?'....


"If I make a comment and it is not backed up by factual evidence, take it as my opinion, and my opinion only"....

#459 tonychen

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:54 PM

I dont have more stats to show since it will take more than a couple of days and a report over 2 pages but if you are willing to show them I will be waiting for you here. BTW you asked for Sorgi vs. Cassel it is 29 att vs. 7.

 

Manning did not play the majority of the last game and at least 4 qtrs (per jvan) in other games, while we all know Brady played every game in order to break that record until almost the last min of week 17 against Giants.

 

In another word it took Brady another 81 attempts or ~=7 qtrs to get one more TD than Manning's.



#460 ViriLudant

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:12 PM

In another word it took Brady another 81 attempts or ~=7 qtrs to get one more TD than Manning's.
Brady allowed his team to rush for 17 TDs in '07.

Peyton? Master of play calling? Allowed his team to rush for 10.

#461 jvan1973

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:19 PM

Brady allowed his team to rush for 17 TDs in '07.

Peyton? Master of play calling? Allowed his team to rush for 10.

The colts didn't run up the score like the pats

#462 ViriLudant

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:27 PM

The colts didn't run up the score like the pats
Untrue.

That, and whining about "running up the score" smacks of a lack of understanding of professional sports.

#463 jvan1973

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:32 PM

Untrue.

That, and whining about "running up the score" smacks of a lack of understanding of professional sports.

Explain why Peyton was on the bench for nearly five quarters that season.. How many snaps did Brady miss

#464 southwest1

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

PS - after Manning threw his last ball ever in the play-offs last weekend, I really wanted to say, 'why the long face?'....
Ionic, that you mention that braveheartcolt...After I finished swearing over the Broncos loss, the truth smacked me right across the face. Insufficient arm strength...Check, A lack of a backbone to neutralize your enemy...check. Another loss in a laundry list of Playoff shortcomings...Check. I have been here so many bleeping times before I was furious. Who was at mad at? Manning? Fox? Del Rio? No, it's my own darn fault. I believed he could do & he fell short. Big surprise there...Jesus, I should be used to it by now. Manning won't win another SB. Unless, you take it out of his hands with a suffocating defense & a smash mouth running game with an endless supply of power & scat backs...Manning has no monster kill switch. Is he too nice? Is that the problem? Where or how does Manning develop a venomous, mean streak? That's the crux of the bleeping manner. Again, regular season means nothing to me, I want an assassin mindset in the Playoffs. Get gritty, get bloody, get mean...I wanna see that fire, that intensity. Take up boxing & learn to punch back Peyton. Show me the animal side, the survival side, the it's him or me kill side.

I seriously think Peyton is too analylitical, cerebral, & smart for his own good. Just get that gleam in your eye that say's you're done mother bleeper. Peyton needs to get angry, mean, & spit blood. Show me your tenacity & get royally ticked off. Show me a bloodthirsty pitbull. Okay, now let's play some Championship football. I've said this before football is all about intimidation. You don't win Championships; you take them by force from 31 other NFL teams. NE understands this...Another reason I respect them as a franchise.
"Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack." Sun Tzu

#465 Yehoodi

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:21 PM

I dont have more stats to show since it will take more than a couple of days and a report over 2 pages but if you are willing to show them I will be waiting for you here. BTW you asked for Sorgi vs. Cassel it is 29 att vs. 7.
 
Manning did not play the majority of the last game and at least 4 qtrs (per jvan) in other games, while we all know Brady played every game in order to break that record until almost the last min of week 17 against Giants.

My question was not how many pass attempt the two had but how many possessions did Sorgi play as opposed to how many possession did Cassell play . . . translation - how many team possession did the respective back up play and thus took away from the starters . . . do you see the point now?

See the point that you and jvan1973 are trying to advocate is that Peyton was pulled and watched Sorgi take the field and that Brady did not get pulled and therefore Cassell did not see the field . .

So i simply ask the question, a logical one i think, is that why do we just see how many time Sorgi took the field and how many times Cassell took the field and we can see what the numbers are? Is there something i am missing in the logic of looking into something one is trying to advocate?

#466 Yehoodi

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:26 PM

Manning sat on the bench in at least for quarters in 2004. Brady played every snap

not to burst your bubble, but when the teams are leading late in the game, they are not running there normal start of the game offense and are trying to run the clock out, so when Brady and Manning where sitting it was not at a point in which either team was interesting in trying to score like it was the first drive of the game . . . so we can't try to extrapolate the missing times for Brady and Manning would be times that the offenses are running during a normal game time . . .

As for the missing times and when their back ups were in, you can refer to my prior posts of how often Sorgi and Cassell were in the games . . .

#467 Vance

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:02 PM

  
At least you know how it feels now....having your QB being 'unclutch' in the play-offs....

 

So what does it say that I'm not nearly as upset about my QB's 'un-clutchness' as you are about another QB who's not even on your team anymore?


Houston Texans fan and realist. Sarcasm is etched into my DNA.


#468 Dustin

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:08 PM

Luck will be better than both of them. /thread


A useful website for when you are debating:

 

yourlogicalfallacyis.com


#469 Jules

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:36 PM

So what does it say that I'm not nearly as upset about my QB's 'un-clutchness' as you are about another QB who's not even on your team anymore?

 

I am not even sure Schaub is good enough or worthy enough to have the un-clutch debate used against him. And I mean no disrespect.

 

At least Manning/Brady are worthy of having choker/cheating debates. Sigh.....



#470 21isSuperman

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:39 PM

This thread has really gone downhill.  It has resulted in a lot of unnecessary name calling and shots taken at others.  Thread closed


When Bob Sanders executes a push up, he does not push himself up. He pushes the world down.
When Bob Sanders was 12, a cobra bit him in the leg. After 4 days of excruciating pain, the cobra died.
Tom Brady can throw a football pretty far. Bob Sanders can throw Tom Brady even farther.
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