Manning's legacy is a done deal now - Greatest only in regular season

[jvan1973]

For all the talk about Brady's playoff success, he is now the one to choke in big moments.

2007- Leading an NFL RECORD SETTING OFFENSE ALL REGULAR SEASON, Tom Brady and the pats were undefeated in the Super Bowl against a #5 seed. Brady and co. Could only muster up two touchdowns with one coming late in the game.

2009- got blown out at home against a underdog ravens team.

2010- go one and done against a jets team they blew out 45-3 in the regular season in the same building.

2011- find a way to lose to Eli again in the Super Bowl after being favored again.

So for all the talk of manning being a playoff failure, Brady sure has plenty of failures as well. There's a reason why the patriots haven't won a Super Bowl since spygate.

Not to mention blowing an 18 point lead to the colts in 2006

[indy1888]

The broncos scored 35 points. Should have easily been enough to win. the ravens had 1:13 and no timeouts. If the broncos secondary didn't give up a gift touchdown at the end of regulation we are having a much different conversation today. To put all the blame on Peyton is absurd

Agreed.

To put no blame on Peyton is just as absurd.

[jvan1973]

Agreed.

To put no blame on Peyton is just as absurd.

I agree. He has some blame no doubt

[tonychen]

For all the talk about Brady's playoff success, he is now the one to choke in big moments.

2007- Leading an NFL RECORD SETTING OFFENSE ALL REGULAR SEASON, Tom Brady and the pats were undefeated in the Super Bowl against a #5 seed. Brady and co. Could only muster up two touchdowns with one coming late in the game.

2009- got blown out at home against a underdog ravens team.

2010- go one and done against a jets team they blew out 45-3 in the regular season in the same building.

2011- find a way to lose to Eli again in the Super Bowl after being favored again.

So for all the talk of manning being a playoff failure, Brady sure has plenty of failures as well. There's a reason why the patriots haven't won a Super Bowl since spygate.

Talking about failures, during the same period, Brady has been 4-5 with 2 1-and-dones, manning is 2-5 with 4 1-and-dones. Not to mention before 06 it was not even close.

[Restored]

Talking about failures, during the same period, Brady has been 4-5 with 2 1-and-dones, manning is 2-5 with 4 1-and-dones. Not to mention before 06 it was not even close.

One and dones are irrelevant to me if the other side doesn't win the Super Bowl. Brady could lose this weekend to the ravens and he will be watching the Super Bowl on the couch like Peyton. Doesn't matter if he won one more game and still get knocked out in my mind. Just dropping down on the draft board is all.

After 2006, Brady and co. Have come annual playoff chokers. It's just a matter of what round.

[tonychen]

I agree. He has some blame no doubt

Just some blame? Imagine if it's not Manning but some other qb having the 3 turnovers resulting in 17 pts and end he big game with an int, would there be anybody trying this hard to find excuses for him?

I don't really understand why this is happening so many times - if a player's teammates continuously fails him in big games and when he finally switches to a new team the exact things happen again, I would think he has more than some blames in the issue.

[tonychen]

One and dones are irrelevant to me if the other side doesn't win the Super Bowl. Brady could lose this weekend to the ravens and he will be watching the Super Bowl on the couch like Peyton. Doesn't matter if he won one more game and still get knocked out in my mind. Just dropping down on the draft board is all.

After 2006, Brady and co. Have come annual playoff chokers. It's just a matter of what round.

If you say one and done doesn't matter then I have no argument. How about Manning's regular season success isn't more impressive than Brady's record as far as both teams generally makes the playoff?

You showed me your blinded love to your hero. Impressive.

[jvan1973]

Just some blame? Imagine if it's not Manning but some other qb having the 3 turnovers resulting in 17 pts and end he big game with an int, would there be anybody trying this hard to find excuses for him? I don't really understand why this is happening so many times - if a player's teammates continuously fails him in big games and when he finally switches to a new team the exact things happen again, I would think he has more than some blames in the issue.

The pick six hit Decker right in the hands and his arm was being held by the defender.. How is that on Peyton.. Peyton had three td passes against the ravens. How many qbs have been able to do that this season?

[tonychen]

Not to mention blowing an 18 point lead to the colts in 2006

Now you don't think it's the pats defense blowing it? I believe after leading by 21-6 in the first half Brady scored another 13 pts in the second. Using you guys' logic 34 pts is enough for the qb to be immune from blames. Actually Brady didn't turn the ball over until desperation time.

[jvan1973]

Now you don't think it's the pats defense blowing it? I believe after leading by 21-6 in the first half Brady scored another 13 pts in the second. Using you guys' logic 34 pts is enough for the qb to be immune from blames. Actually Brady didn't turn the ball over until desperation time.

Find one post from me that says

Peyton didn't deserve blame

[dynasty13]

One and dones are irrelevant to me if the other side doesn't win the Super Bowl. Brady could lose this weekend to the ravens and he will be watching the Super Bowl on the couch like Peyton. Doesn't matter if he won one more game and still get knocked out in my mind. Just dropping down on the draft board is all.

After 2006, Brady and co. Have come annual playoff chokers. It's just a matter of what round.

 

So let me just follow your logic. Losing in the first round is choking....losing in the Superbowl is choking...so unless a team wins the Superbowl literally every single year, they become 'annual playoff chokers'?

 

I'm sorry, but consistently making a deep, legitimate playoff run is NOT the same as consistently losing your first game and not even having a real shot. You cant win every year. You just cant. 'Choking' is one of the most overused and misused terms in sports...

[tonychen]

The pick six hit Decker right in the hands and his arm was being held by the defender.. How is that on Peyton.. Peyton had three td passes against the ravens. How many qbs have been able to do that this season?

If you talk about driving for 3 TDs to beat the ravens this season, sorry its not like they are holding AFCs best record. Mike Vick, Brady, Schaub and even Charlie batch all had nice games against them, with the first two winning when the ravens were completely healthy.

[jvan1973]

If you talk about leading 3 TDs to beat the ravens this season, sorry its not like they are holding AFCs best record. Mike Vick, Brady, Schaub and even Charlie batch all had nice games against them, with the first two winning when the ravens were completely healthy.

How many of then had three td passes

[tonychen]

How many of then had three td passes

Don't need them all to be passes. If they can score rushing td when the QBs drove them near the end zone I believe the qb already did his job. It just happened that manning opted to throw in this past game. He let his rbs score twice in their last meeting with ravens but had only 1 passing td but I still think he played much better in that regular season game.

[chad72]

There are several things to look at in a TEAM game.

 

One, Brady's performance in his last 3 AFCCG has something like 4 TDs, and 8 INTs or something like that. But he won all those 3 games and got 3 SB appearances out of those. If Peyton has those stats - one, he is roasted by Peyton critics, and two, his teams are very likely to lose it because his teams have not made enough plays on D. Think about it. In the SB winning playoff run, had 3 INTs vs Chiefs, 2 INTs vs Ravens, 1 INT vs Pats, and 1 INT vs Bears. But...wait a minute...here it comes...he won all those games. How did that magically happen, just like Brady's 3 AFCCG mentioned above? That is right...it is a TEAM game and his team stepped up enough to make up for it. Big Ben had the lowest QB rating in a SB and his team won. Come on...

 

This, I will give you. Peyton's teams, the make up of the teams, the routes that are being called on offense, and the inability to stretch the field against good man coverage because they are conservative to make mistakes can result in patterns like Marvin Harrison going MIA in the playoffs, and also expose some of Peyton's arm strength limitations of being able to drill the ball into a tight window with an arm like Brady or Rodgers. This has been singularly the pattern of Peyton's playoff life.

 

I see other QBs throwing picks and they rarely go for pick sixes while Peyton's Indy offense, the routes being called, the spacing has to be executed perfectly that if it is not, the results are disastrous, and I think it is a flawed offensive spacing, IMO. Peyton has already thrown 3 pick sixes with the Broncos - 2 vs the Chargers in 2 games, and 1 in the recent playoff game. We can also remember the Asante Samuel and Tracy Porter pick sixes too.

 

Very few teams overcome their flaws like the Patriots, come playoff time, and THAT is good coaching. The 2 big games Brady lost, that is right, Eli probably turned it over 1 time (in 2007, I think), and Brady probably turned it over 1 time (fumble before the half, I think), and the bigger the game, the lesser the turnovers from both these QBs.

 

Peyton does turn it over more than Brady but the points that result from his turnovers has to be analyzed and as much as his offense has been successful for the last decade, and benefits from great route running and execution, it calls for more perfection than humanly possible against the best playoff Ds and results in more points than most QBs I have seen in playoff history.

 

However, his legacy is that of a QB with limitations in arm strength overcome with accuracy and anticipation, having to take more chances because he cant gun it or sneak it in like Brady, or make plays out of the pocket like Big Ben or Rodgers. The results manifest from those limitations, objectively speaking.

[tonychen]

There are several things to look at in a TEAM game.

 

Peyton does turn it over more than Brady but the points that result from his turnovers has to be analyzed and as much as his offense has been successful for the last decade, and benefits from great route running and execution, it calls for more perfection than humanly possible against the best playoff Ds and results in more points than most QBs I have seen in playoff history.

 

However, his legacy is that of a QB with limitations in arm strength overcome with accuracy and anticipation, having to take more chances because he cant gun it or sneak it in like Brady, or make plays out of the pocket like Big Ben or Rodgers. The results manifest from those limitations, objectively speaking.

This is one of the most objective comments on Manning's legacy. I agree with most. On the other hand, for manning to eventually overcome the weaknesses and win big games, I expect him to actively seeking for more options other than sticking with his same strategies for yrs. however, it looks like he is only transferring his system even when he goes to a new team and gave up infusing that team's elements very quickly.

[colts8718]

Not to mention blowing an 18 point lead to the colts in 2006

Ever since they where caught cheating they can't win the BIG ONE

[jjcolts]

This is one of the most objective comments on Manning's legacy. I agree with most. On the other hand, for manning to eventually overcome the weaknesses and win big games, I expect him to actively seeking for more options other than sticking with his same strategies for yrs. however, it looks like he is only transferring his system even when he goes to a new team and gave up infusing that team's elements very quickly.

It seems that you are hurt "for" Manning because of what his perception from the media and fans of what his legacy is.

 

Okay....from your vantage point Brady better than Manning?  So what now? What else do you need?

Manning suckzzzzzz.....is that better?

[jvan1973]

It seems that you are hurt "for" Manning because of what his perception from the media and fans of what his legacy is.

Okay....from your vantage point Brady better than Manning? So what now? What else do you need?

Manning suckzzzzzz.....is that better?

Multiple z's makes everything better

[Fx Stryker]

Manning as a Patriot would have 5 rings. I don't think Brady even gets one in Indy. I'm sorry, but Bledsoe could have well been the QB for Tom's three rings.

[dynasty13]

Ever since they where caught cheating they can't win the BIG ONE

 

Football is a game of inches. We won three Superbowls by a total of 9 points, we lost two by a total of 7. A bounce here a bounce there, one play here one play there, and we could easily have 5 Championships. We could just as easily only have 2. Sometimes you are the best team but you just run into a buzz saw, as the Rams did with the Patriots in 2001 and as the Patriots have with the Giants in 2007 and 2011. Spygate has nothing to do with it.

 

Manning as a Patriot would have 5 rings. I don't think Brady even gets one in Indy. I'm sorry, but Bledsoe could have well been the QB for Tom's three rings.

 

Ignorant, ignorant comment...and quite possibly one of the worst this board has ever seen. 

[jvan1973]

Manning as a Patriot would have 5 rings. I don't think Brady even gets one in Indy. I'm sorry, but Bledsoe could have well been the QB for Tom's three rings.

I take nothing away from Brady.. He its a great qb. But i think the pats success has more to do with Belichick than Brady.

[pacolts56]

And just think....with all the analysis of Peyton Manning's illustrious career achievements.....it's VERY likely that his legacy would be entirely different had the Colts, and now Denver, been able to get one lousy, stinking 1st down doing what???

 

RUNNING the football, getting that 1st down and bleeding out the clock.

 

Teams that can do that at the end of close playoff games usually win....teams that cannot usually don't.

[jjcolts]

You guys have Andrew Lucke now. The kid is going to be awesome. Despite ESPN's love affair with RG3, Lucke is the best rookie quarterback in the league.

 

Go with it and stop defending things that can't be defended anymore.

 

Brady has taken his play to a whole different level since the early 2000 back and forths.

 

The Brady v Manning debate was decisively settled. In every way. Stats. Rings. Records. Post season success. Style. The prolific nature of the offenses each run. Brady is just an all around vastly superior package.

This is condescending to us Colts fans, IMO. You are alluding that we don't have the smarts to defend one of the Colts legend and root for the Colts at the same time?  Telling us to move on...what the???  What does Luck have to do with this thread.

 

Darn right we have Andrew Luck, and I guarantee you, you will eat those words, when we start talking about Luck having the "vastly" superior package over another QB. You know a rookie taking  2-14 team to the playoffs, winning 11 games.

Unlike when Brady was gone for a season and the Patriots didn't skip a beat, you know Cassell, picking up right where Brady left off.  And oh wait, what is Cassell up to now??

 

Brady is Elite, one of the top QB's, his success is undeniable; but don't ever compare him to Montana.  Different times, different defense, and different rules.

[Fx Stryker]

Ignorant, ignorant comment...and quite possibly one of the worst this board has ever seen. 

 

 

No I'll stand by it. Circumstances dictate. If Marino was drafted by the Steelers, like he was suppose to be, he retires with 2 maybe 3 rings.

 

I take nothing away from Brady.. He its a great qb. But i think the pats success has more to do with Belichick than Brady.

 

Hence my comment.

 

Brady is Elite, one of the top QB's, his success is undeniable; but don't ever compare him to Montana.  Different times, different defense, and different rules.

 

Let him compare. Montana isn't even the best. Peyton gets compared to Johnny U.

[dynasty13]

 No I'll stand by it. Circumstances dictate. If Marino was drafted by the Steelers, like he was suppose to be, he retires with 2 maybe 3 rings.

 

But you're also ignoring the circumstances that have led to the 'legacies' that we're debating in the first place.

 

For example...Peyton Manning struggles in cold weather...yet we're supposed to just 'assume' that he'd have 5 rings if he played up in New England? We didn't just 'make up' these situations that have led to why fans perceive players in the way that they do. It's based on their play, their trends. So many here want so badly for everyone to just 'admit' that Peyton is the greatest ever, yet then spend the majority of the time making excuses for why he didn't live up to the expectations that they themselves put on him by proclaiming him as the best. It's just amazing...he's not even yours anymore and many of you STILL feel like they need to deflect blame and make excuses any time someone criticizes him. 

[braveheartcolt]

This is the funniest thread I've seen in a while. Keep it going chaps!

[Yehoodi]

And just think....with all the analysis of Peyton Manning's illustrious career achievements.....it's VERY likely that his legacy would be entirely different had the Colts, and now Denver, been able to get one lousy, stinking 1st down doing what???

 

RUNNING the football, getting that 1st down and bleeding out the clock.

 

Teams that can do that at the end of close playoff games usually win....teams that cannot usually don't.

yes a bounce here and a bounce there can make the difference in a win and a loss, and the same holds true for getting a critical first down or not . . . and you are correct about a few of PMs lossess . . .

but then again what would Peyton's legacy had been if the Pats were able to get a first down near the end of the 2006 AFCCG (not to mention the fact that a RB Heath Evans was the 12th man in the huddle to make it 1st and 15, and a few others things that did not fall the pats way starting late in the first half), what if Troy Brown runs the out route like he was supposed to do as opposed to running in and into another NE player allowing the defender on that player to break up the play and deny a first down to end the game . . .

for me I look at the body of work as much as I do the end results of SBs . . .for manning he has been in the hunt twice, 2006 and 2009 in which he did what he had to do to help his team get to the lady luck table and the spin of the bottle decided if the colts win or lose the SB . . .

with exception of 2004 in which I believe no one was going to beat NE, but in the years of 2001, 2003, 2006, 2007, and 2011, TB did what he had to do get team to the table of lady luck and the bottle spun to NE in 01 and 03 but not in 06, 07 or 11, but none the less TB has been to the table 5 times with a SB in pocket for 6 overall . . .

PM has been to the table twice . . . with the bottle spinning in the colts favor in 2006 but not 2009 . . .

so for me when I look at Manning I dont just look at one SB, but two runs that had a chance for two . . . i find looking at it this way eliminates the absolute finality of a SB as being dispositive, and stepping back as seeing how good an effoft did the person bring to the table with the understanding that luck can effect it, but i look beyond the luck . . .

So Peyton has been to the table twice, which for some, may not be a much as they would expect with his pedigree and team . . .

[Fx Stryker]

*post*

 

I don't care about legacies. Peyton may not get the "intangibles" Brady has, but he is the better player of the two.

 

His last five losses the defense gave up the lead in the fourth quarter. The past two in the final minute of the game. Two losses have come down to a kicker missing the game winning/tying field goal.

 

Like you said sometimes it bounces your way sometimes it doesn't.

[dynasty13]

I don't care about legacies. Peyton may not get the "intangibles" Brady has, but he is the better player of the two.

 

His last five losses the defense gave up the lead in the fourth quarter. The past two in the final minute of the game. Two losses have come down to a kicker missing the game winning/tying field goal.

 

Like you said sometimes it bounces your way sometimes it doesn't.

 

Absolutely correct. But then again, you could look at Brady's last two Superbowls where he had the lead going into the final minutes of the game, and the losses came as the results of two crazy, historically nuts plays. Otherwise Brady is sitting here 5-0 in Superbowls and there is no debate about anything.

 

Circumstances determine a lot about a player's career, and how a player responds or reacts to those circumstances is what defines them as a player. You cant just say 'oh lets change this circumstance and we know Peyton would have done this'. No. Doesnt work like that. 

[hawkeyes]

Brady this Manning that ... complete nonsense!  They are members of a TEAM they dont win or lose on their own (well some times they might) but for the most part they do so as a team!

 

I have always hated that QBS are measured and compared by SB ring -  Brady did not win 3 SBs he was on a team that won three!   Manning did not win a SB - he was on a team that won one!

[OldManP]

Dude, the Broncos scored 35 points, the Pats didn't even match that score in two Super Bowls. It's not even close to the same thing.

How many points were scored by Manning and the offense?

[The Fish]

Absolutely correct. But then again, you could look at Brady's last two Superbowls where he had the lead going into the final minutes of the game, and the losses came as the results of two crazy, historically nuts plays. Otherwise Brady is sitting here 5-0 in Superbowls and there is no debate about anything.

 

Circumstances determine a lot about a player's career, and how a player responds or reacts to those circumstances is what defines them as a player. You cant just say 'oh lets change this circumstance and we know Peyton would have done this'. No. Doesnt work like that. 

There's no debate in my mind anymore. Brady is in as good of a situation and that smooths things over, but his body of work is stronger none the less. 5 SB appearances should settle it, but it won't. Oh well. 

 

Go Ravens.. (that felt gross to say)

[jvan1973]

How many points were scored by Manning and the offense?

Doesn't matter, its a team game

[Fx Stryker]

Absolutely correct. But then again, you could look at Brady's last two Superbowls where he had the lead going into the final minutes of the game, and the losses came as the results of two crazy, historically nuts plays. Otherwise Brady is sitting here 5-0 in Superbowls and there is no debate about anything.

 

Circumstances determine a lot about a player's career, and how a player responds or reacts to those circumstances is what defines them as a player. You cant just say 'oh lets change this circumstance and we know Peyton would have done this'. No. Doesnt work like that. 

 

Even if Brady is 5-0 in the Super Bowl I don't think I'd call him the greatest ever.

 

If the Patriots do not win another Super Bowl Tom's playoff record drops down to 11 losses, assuming he plays as long as he said he wants to play. Is he going to be judged differently now that he is tied for second possibly tied for first in playoff losses?

 

And say Peyton wins back to back Super Bowls next season and the year after. That'll put him at possible 16 wins, second all-time.

 

If it does happen to play out like that has Peyton suddenly become this amazing QB, no. He has played the same way he always has. Same goes for Tom. He didn't suddenly drop off the face of the Earth. He is the same QB he has always been.

[GoPats]

(DISCLAIMER: I'm sure lots of you will hate this post. But this thread is just out of control.)

 

 

Interesting thread.

 

Some folks still making excuses for Manning, while others are a little less kind to your former QB. I've always asked, and have never gotten a good answer... if Manning gets so much credit for his play, play-calling, elevating other teammates, giving confidence to his defense, etc-etc... all the stuff we've heard this season and over the years... why is he so exempt from having any responsibility for these crushing playoff losses?

 

There's a lot of complaining about play-calling and offensive philosophy... reading about them all season on this board, all you'd hear was how Manning was the OC. What happened then?

 

I am not a hater, never really have been, but I'm also honest. When Brady plays like garbage, I say he plays like garbage. He stunk it up in some playoff losses. But he also left his team in position to win both of the SBs they lost.

 

You can't give one guy - Manning - all the credit for a team's accomplishments, and then exempt him from blame when he was clearly integral to the loss. All season long, all we heard was how Manning was essentially a one-man-show in Denver. There were MVP threads, there were endless heaps of praise showered on him.

 

Now, it's not on him? What happened? Did McCoy reassume play-calling duties just this week?

 

Manning was not the only Bronco who played poorly Saturday. But he was the last Bronco to touch the ball. If that game comes down to one play, it's the OT interception, and any neutral football-watching fan out there would say the same thing. Yes, the game-tying TD was inexcusable and had nothing to do with Manning at that moment, but the Broncos' failure to close the game out bit them in the end.

 

 

Ever since they where caught cheating they can't win the BIG ONE

 

This is when Patriots fans know a fan of an opposing team has been backed into a corner and has nothing else to say. Because while it's technically true, the two things (Spygate and winning a SB) are about as relevant as the color of Brady's socks on game day. It'd be one thing if the Patriots fell off the map and never won a playoff game after 2007. They've been to two SBs since then and lost them by a combined 7 points. Gimme a break.

 

 

Manning as a Patriot would have 5 rings. I don't think Brady even gets one in Indy. I'm sorry, but Bledsoe could have well been the QB for Tom's three rings.

 

Yes, sure. Manning is now 0-4 in games under 20 degrees and the Patriots generally play one, probably two home games each playoff season, when it is normally either cold as heck or maybe snowing. Solid point there.

 

Your comment shows so much bias it's not even funny... the Bledsoe comment punctuated it though. It's so inaccurate, so incredibly wrong, and you obviously have no idea why.

 

 

I take nothing away from Brady.. He its a great qb. But i think the pats success has more to do with Belichick than Brady.

 

I've heard BB say this 100 times:

 

"There's no one I'd rather have as our quarterback than Tom Brady."

 

I'm pretty sure he's including, you know, some other guy from this era who's had a remarkable HOF career. ;)

[dynasty13]

Even if Brady is 5-0 in the Super Bowl I don't think I'd call him the greatest ever.

 

If the Patriots do not win another Super Bowl Tom's playoff record drops down to 11 losses, assuming he plays as long as he said he wants to play. Is he going to be judged differently now that he is tied for second possibly tied for first in playoff losses?

 

And say Peyton wins back to back Super Bowls next season and the year after. That'll put him at possible 16 wins, second all-time.

 

If it does happen to play out like that has Peyton suddenly become this amazing QB, no. He has played the same way he always has. Same goes for Tom. He didn't suddenly drop off the face of the Earth. He is the same QB he has always been.

 

That's a lot of 'ifs' in that post. 

 

But you're right...IF Peyton goes and wins the next two Superbowls and his record gets a little more respectable, he's still the same guy hes always been. The problem with your point is that the stats and records that we are using to form our perceptions of him actually happened. THAT'S the guy hes always been. You're just saying 'well if he does better next year, will you change your opinion?'

 

Maybe. Sure. You judge a player in historical context and in terms of legacy once he's done. But we DO have a 14 year body of work to on, and the game on Sunday did nothing but reinforce some of the opinions people already felt about him...and now the defenders are once again trying to deflect blame and provide a bunch of 'what ifs' as a way to justify his once again and all too familiar playoff struggle.

[pacolts56]

yes a bounce here and a bounce there can make the difference in a win and a loss, and the same holds true for getting a critical first down or not . . . and you are correct about a few of PMs lossess . . .

but then again what would Peyton's legacy had been if the Pats were able to get a first down near the end of the 2006 AFCCG (not to mention the fact that a RB Heath Evans was the 12th man in the huddle to make it 1st and 15, and a few others things that did not fall the pats way starting late in the first half), what if Troy Brown runs the out route like he was supposed to do as opposed to running in and into another NE player allowing the defender on that player to break up the play and deny a first down to end the game . . .

for me I look at the body of work as much as I do the end results of SBs . . .for manning he has been in the hunt twice, 2006 and 2009 in which he did what he had to do to help his team get to the lady luck table and the spin of the bottle decided if the colts win or lose the SB . . .

with exception of 2004 in which I believe no one was going to beat NE, but in the years of 2001, 2003, 2006, 2007, and 2011, TB did what he had to do get team to the table of lady luck and the bottle spun to NE in 01 and 03 but not in 06, 07 or 11, but none the less TB has been to the table 5 times with a SB in pocket for 6 overall . . .

PM has been to the table twice . . . with the bottle spinning in the colts favor in 2006 but not 2009 . . .

so for me when I look at Manning I dont just look at one SB, but two runs that had a chance for two . . . i find looking at it this way eliminates the absolute finality of a SB as being dispositive, and stepping back as seeing how good an effoft did the person bring to the table with the understanding that luck can effect it, but i look beyond the luck . . .

So Peyton has been to the table twice, which for some, may not be a much as they would expect with his pedigree and team . . .

Some good points there...and your "body of work" comment ties in very well with another encompassing point....your last.

 

Unfortunately this goes beyond the Brady vs Manning equation since the Patriots were only responsible for 2 Colts playoff exits out of the 7 served up to us with Manning under center. But the playoff issues for Peyton were always the same.

 

I've said repeatedly on this Forum...like a parrot on meth...that for all of the Ferrari-like qualities of the Colts offense in the Manning era, they were unable to muster the necessary power aspect in their running game to finish off San Diego in one playoff game....and extend their lead over the Saints in the 2009 Super Bowl. And a close examination of the 2006 playoff loss to Pittsburgh shows a complete abandonment of the running game in the 2nd half of that early exit.

 

The fact is....my expectations, temporarily buoyed by the 2007 Super Bowl win in which RBs Joseph Addai/Dominique Rhodes should have shared the SB MVP....began to wane again when LT Tarik Glenn retired and LG Jake Scott departed in free agency, never to be adequately replaced....despite laughably ridiculous claims you'll see on this Forum of how wonderful guys like LT Charlie Johnson and OG Mike Pollak were.

 

But it wasn't just the lack of O-line talent....because the Peyton Manning/Tom Moore/Bill Polian offensive construct increasingly de-emphasized the run game as Manning's career progressed. And that was every bit due to philosophy as it was talent level....which offends some of my fellow Colts fans.

 

Sorry...you can get by with that in the regular season and enjoy the individual accolades....but against playoff level defenses it can be a fatal flaw. And a highly frustrating one when we consider that solid, physical O-line play and a more physical corps of RBs....and the willingness to use them....can rectify it.

 

And if anyone chimes in about our vulnerabilities on defense in these early playoff exits...I would counter that SO much roster and scheme emphasis on a high-flying "pass-first" philosophy would share a generous portion of the blame. We can ask Mike McCarthy and Aaron Rodgers their opinion on this, by the way.

 

Physicality and balance...offensively and roster-wide....is something that your Bill Belichick ALWAYS understood.

 

And make no mistake...THAT has helped the Patriots and Tom Brady achieve greater overall playoff success than the Colts...and now the Denver Broncos, with Peyton Manning.

[OldManP]

Doesn't matter, its a team game

Manning fan-boys are more fan-boyish than any others.  Any excuse for their pal, whom they always refer to by first name.

[jvan1973]

Manning fan-boys are more fan-boyish than any others. Any excuse for their pal, whom they always refer to by first name.

Your right, it was Peytons fault... Dunce