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LETS GET THINGS STRAIGHT ABOUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE


needanoline63

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be patient, how long did it take to our last true LT, tarik glenn?  like 4 years

AND....AC was injured part of last year without much learning from a training camp due to lockout....trust me AC is fine.  If he goes anywhere he goes to LT because we latched onto a Pro Bowler like Long....etc.... :thmup:

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This is my wish list for our 2013 O-line.

 

LT - Castanzo

LG - Andy Levitre

C - Shipley

RG - Louis Vasquez

RT - Jermon Bushrod / Phil Loadholt

 

If we could make this happen, I would be very satisfied and confident in our O-line.

while i like that OL...does levitre really fit? im assumming we keep the same OL scheme.

 

isnt Buffallo more of zone type OL? i confess i really didnt see any game of buffallo, so its an honest question.

question is, does GM really want to use that much cap room JUST on OL or would he spread that around? how much cap space will it take to get those 3 guys, vasquez, loadholt and levitre? arround 20 millions?

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AND....AC was injured part of last year without much learning from a training camp due to lockout....trust me AC is fine.  If he goes anywhere he goes to LT because we latched onto a Pro Bowler like Long....etc.... :thmup:

Honestly i dont think AC is like a top 5 LT or will be...but he is good enough, its just that he is the best piece on a crappy OL and everybody seems worse than they really are. Mcglynn for example, didnt look that bad when he was the starting C of the eagles, but the rest of the OL was better. everybody seems worse because none of them are all that good to be honest, maybe just Castonzo eventually will. if we had 2-3 really good OL we wouldnt be complaining at all about castonzo, im sure of it

 

I think Bushrod is another example, everyone wants him, heck i want him as RT (not LT) but since brees is such a good qb and he has nicks/grubs evans, etc. he doesnt look exposed AND he can get help from RB/TE because the rest of the OL can handle their blocks

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while i like that OL...does levitre really fit? im assumming we keep the same OL scheme.

 

isnt Buffallo more of zone type OL? i confess i really didnt see any game of buffallo, so its an honest question.

question is, does GM really want to use that much cap room JUST on OL or would he spread that around? how much cap space will it take to get those 3 guys, vasquez, loadholt and levitre? arround 20 millions?

 

 

I thought about that too, whether Levitre would fit the scheme, but I honestly think he is talented enough that he could play in a man blocking scheme. It normally wouldn't be that difficult for an O-lineman to add 10 to 15 lbs of muscle to strengthen himself up. 

 

I was thinking about 16 to 20 million for all three players. That would still leave over 20 million dollars to add to other area's of need. There should be plenty of money to add 3 quality O-lineman and still have more than enough to add others as well. IMO, O-line is where the money needs to be spent. We do not need to add a high dollar WR as others keep suggesting. That would be a total waste of resources IMO.

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I thought about that too, whether Levitre would fit the scheme, but I honestly think he is talented enough that he could play in a man blocking scheme. It normally wouldn't be that difficult for an O-lineman to add 10 to 15 lbs of muscle to strengthen himself up. 

 

I was thinking about 16 to 20 million for all three players. That would still leave over 20 million dollars to add to other area's of need. There should be plenty of money to add 3 quality O-lineman and still have more than enough to add others as well. IMO, O-line is where the money needs to be spent. We do not need to add a high dollar WR as others keep suggesting. That would be a total waste of resources IMO.

I agree, i hope we really use our money on OL and not prima donna WR. we can get one on the draft(hopefully not this draft).  However i woudln't be mad either if we get a WR only if we get at least 2 OL pieces on the same FA.

 

i just hope we go OL OL OL, and hopefully a pass rusher...if we get a cb is a bonus for me

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I agree, i hope we really use our money on OL and not prima donna WR. we can get one on the draft(hopefully not this draft).  However i woudln't be mad either if we get a WR only if we get at least 2 OL pieces on the same FA.

 

i just hope we go OL OL OL, and hopefully a pass rusher...if we get a cb is a bonus for me

 

 

 

Yeah, if we could get the 3 O-lineman I suggested and any combination of these guys -OLBer's - Anthony Spencer/Conner Barwin/Paul Kruger

SS's - Jairius Byrd/Kenny Phillips

CB's - Cary Williams/Mike Jenkins/ Maybe Tracy Porter.

 

I would be happy with the offseason. I think it would be possible to sign these guys with the money we have to spend, plus resign the guys from our own roster that they are interested in bringing back.

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while i like that OL...does levitre really fit? im assumming we keep the same OL scheme.

 

isnt Buffallo more of zone type OL? i confess i really didnt see any game of buffallo, so its an honest question.

question is, does GM really want to use that much cap room JUST on OL or would he spread that around? how much cap space will it take to get those 3 guys, vasquez, loadholt and levitre? arround 20 millions?

You're right, Levitate doesn't really fit...he is something like 6'2 305 and is playing in a zone blocking scheme

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You're right, Levitate doesn't really fit...he is something like 6'2 305 and is playing in a zone blocking scheme

 

 

He's the same size as Olsen and a 100 times more talented than Olsen. If they thought Olsen could play in a man blocking scheme, I see no reason why Levitre couldn't play in the scheme either.

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He's the same size as Olsen and a 100 times more talented than Olsen. If they thought Olsen could play in a man blocking scheme, I see no reason why Levitre couldn't play in the scheme either.

Olsen was brought in to be a cheap back up plug...sometimes u gotta make due. If I wanted a guard for a man power running game I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a undersized guard

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He's the same size as Olsen and a 100 times more talented than Olsen. If they thought Olsen could play in a man blocking scheme, I see no reason why Levitre couldn't play in the scheme either.

Olsen belongs in a Zone Blocking scheme to thats what he was originally in with the old regime here(also drafted into a Zone scheme by the Broncos) before the change over in the offseason, neither are strong enough to be in a Man/Power scheme

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Olsen was brought in to be a cheap back up plug...sometimes u gotta make due. If I wanted a guard for a man power running game I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a undersized guard

 

 

 

Thats the point though. Levitre is way better than Olsen and like I said earlier, it isn't real difficult for an O-lineman to pack on some weight. He just didn't need the weight playing a zone blocking scheme in Buffalo. Hey, if there is a better option out there, I'm all for it, but the guard cupboard is pretty bare this yr. in the free agent market. 

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Thats the point though. Levitre is way better than Olsen and like I said earlier, it isn't real difficult for an O-lineman to pack on some weight. He just didn't need the weight playing a zone blocking scheme in Buffalo. Hey, if there is a better option out there, I'm all for it, but the guard cupboard is pretty bare this yr. in the free agent market. 

I get that he is 10x more talented than Olsen, but if I'm going to pay a FA a lot of money I want him doing something I know he can do..not what I think or hope he can do. IMO, guys like Vasquez and Slauson would be better targets

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Maybe I am old school, but to me if you are a good offensive lineman you should be able to block in any scheme....get in the trenches and kick some tail!  Sure one may be better in one or the other.  Sooooooo yes it makes sense if you are looking at the OL who fits better....

 

I still think too much emphasis is put on the schemes....can the guy block Watt or can't he?  (The obvious answer is NO! :):funny:

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I get that he is 10x more talented than Olsen, but if I'm going to pay a FA a lot of money I want him doing something I know he can do..not what I think or hope he can do. IMO, guys like Vasquez and Slauson would be better targets

 

 

Actually Vasquez was one of the others that I suggested. In case you missed it. I said Levitre, Vasquez, and either Bushrod or Loadholt would be the 3 I would pick up. I honestly think Levitre would have no problem playing a man blocking scheme and I know Grigson will know one way or the other. So I will just wait to see what Grigson does and hope everything pans out.

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I agree about Castanzo and Shipley being our two best Oline.  I will also say this about Winston.  The guy is very quick in getting back into his pass blocking stance.  Almost like Tarik.  You swear he's moving before the snap of the ball, he's so quick to set up.  Injuries though.

 

As far as Castanzo, he's "good" if compared to our Oline, but IMO, just a shade above average if compared to the top teir LT.  The guy is fine as a run blocker, but his pass protection is still shaky to me.  He gets beat way too often for my tastes.  Shipley should be starting over Satele from day 1.

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Actually Vasquez was one of the others that I suggested. In case you missed it. I said Levitre, Vasquez, and either Bushrod or Loadholt would be the 3 I would pick up. I honestly think Levitre would have no problem playing a man blocking scheme and I know Grigson will know one way or the other. So I will just wait to see what Grigson does and hope everything pans out.

Yeah, if grison signs Levitre i would be happy...he knows 100x more than my *

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I get that he is 10x more talented than Olsen, but if I'm going to pay a FA a lot of money I want him doing something I know he can do..not what I think or hope he can do. IMO, guys like Vasquez and Slauson would be better targets

You are right on target with this. You do not pay top notch money for something you hope to make work. You pay too notch money on something you have seen work and know will work. How many teams get a player with big name, big stats only to Gail in a different scheme/approach. Don't pay for something just to do it IMO.

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Actually Vasquez was one of the others that I suggested. In case you missed it. I said Levitre, Vasquez, and either Bushrod or Loadholt would be the 3 I would pick up. I honestly think Levitre would have no problem playing a man blocking scheme and I know Grigson will know one way or the other. So I will just wait to see what Grigson does and hope everything pans out.

I don't know much about Vasquez but I like loadholt and bushrod as well. Regardless of who we get, they have to be bonofied starters. If justice was just injured all season and the coaches feel he can come back an play next season strong, I'm all for getting the two best guards in FA and picking up a RT project in the mid rounds to groom for the following year.

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Per his own admission B.P. was no judge of O-Line talent and we have long suffered for that. Ryan Grigson had little ability to fix our long standing O-Line problems last summer but that's going to change soon. I feel very sure that he will go after quality O-Line and frankly I'm comfortable with whatever combination of free agent(s), trades or draft picks that he's going to acquire. The Colts (and Luck) will be upgraded in this area but I doubt even Grigson knows right now what form that upgrade will take.

As for our existing O-Line, A.C. is a good tackle and will continue to improve, Shipley got a 40 on his wonderlic (higher that Luck), will always play hard and is hungry so he also stays but after those 2 guys I don't really see any lineman that is a must keep.

I think that O-Line is a fairly portable skill (unlike say a CB) so a FA that plays well somewhere else can kinda plug in (and I don't see how we cannot commit some $ to at least 1 FA) but the bang for the buck has to be in drafting multiple linemen in middle and late rounds.

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Thats the point though. Levitre is way better than Olsen and like I said earlier, it isn't real difficult for an O-lineman to pack on some weight. He just didn't need the weight playing a zone blocking scheme in Buffalo. Hey, if there is a better option out there, I'm all for it, but the guard cupboard is pretty bare this yr. in the free agent market. 

 

Levitre was considered lacking in upper body strength when he came out of college. I wouldn't call him weak or undersized, but he definitely fits a zone blocking scheme more than a man blocking scheme. I personally think we should go back to a zone scheme, and Levitre would be a good addition, but either way, he's an upgrade over what we've had at guard the past three seasons. Just wouldn't want us to pay $30-40m for a guard that isn't a good fit.

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Yeah, if we could get the 3 O-lineman I suggested and any combination of these guys -OLBer's - Anthony Spencer/Conner Barwin/Paul Kruger

SS's - Jairius Byrd/Kenny Phillips

CB's - Cary Williams/Mike Jenkins/ Maybe Tracy Porter.

 

I would be happy with the offseason. I think it would be possible to sign these guys with the money we have to spend, plus resign the guys from our own roster that they are interested in bringing back.

 

What do you see those guys listed signing for?

 

Last year the 20 UFAs/RFAs took up over $13m.  21 rosters spots are on that list though - Freeney isn't included in the 20.  I think it's safe to assume the roster will be filled out with around the same amount - some will go (Moore), some may well get raises (McAfee, Avery).  So I'll leave that where it was.

 

Over $3m for the draft will be needed.  The 24th pick in rounds 1,3,4,6, and 7 last year cost $3.12m or so. 

 

The Colts will leave some 'oh-oh' money, in-season signing room.  They'll spend over 89%, but I doubt 100%.  My guess is another $3m - maybe that's high, I don't know.

 

That leaves $24m to shop.  Those OLBs might get $8m - Spencer made $8.8m this season, Kruger reports say 4yr, $32m, Barwin turned down 3yr, $15m already.  Levitre might get Grubbs, Hicks, Joseph money, which is over $8m.  Byrd is a ball hawk, he won't come cheap.  After the big names go, and most I think will be tagged or resigned, the demand on what's left, like a Bushrod, goes up, not down.  Loadholt won't get Thomas/Clady/Long money, but it might be close. 

 

I love your list, would love to see it, I'm just having a hard time seeing how.  Unless you think those guys are going to sign for far less than I do.

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What do you see those guys listed signing for?

 

Last year the 20 UFAs/RFAs took up over $13m.  21 rosters spots are on that list though - Freeney isn't included in the 20.  I think it's safe to assume the roster will be filled out with around the same amount - some will go (Moore), some may well get raises (McAfee, Avery).  So I'll leave that where it was.

 

That included Mathis and Wayne, who combined for $9.25m against the cap. We don't have any free agents of that caliber this season, although we have more of them. Still, McAfee, Moala, Mathews, Powers, Butler, Justice, Shipley, Overton, A. Johnson are probably the ones we'll try to keep. Something like that. That kind of group should probably be highly affordable. Without doing too much research, I'd think they would come in around $10m, but your figure is safe.

 

 

Over $3m for the draft will be needed.  The 24th pick in rounds 1,3,4,6, and 7 last year cost $3.12m or so. 

 

The Colts will leave some 'oh-oh' money, in-season signing room.  They'll spend over 89%, but I doubt 100%.  My guess is another $3m - maybe that's high, I don't know.

 

We left about $10m this season, and probably used $3-4m of it, depending on some variances. I think we'll leave close to $10m again.

 

 

That leaves $24m to shop.  Those OLBs might get $8m - Spencer made $8.8m this season, Kruger reports say 4yr, $32m, Barwin turned down 3yr, $15m already.  Levitre might get Grubbs, Hicks, Joseph money, which is over $8m.  Byrd is a ball hawk, he won't come cheap.  After the big names go, and most I think will be tagged or resigned, the demand on what's left, like a Bushrod, goes up, not down.  Loadholt won't get Thomas/Clady/Long money, but it might be close. 

 

I love your list, would love to see it, I'm just having a hard time seeing how.  Unless you think those guys are going to sign for far less than I do.

 

This is where we stray, I think. Take a closer look at some of those contracts and situations. Barwin, for one, turned down an offer and then went out and had a very mediocre year (sacks way down, tackles down). He'd be silly to hold out for more than three years, $15m at this point.

 

I don't know what you mean about Kruger, as he's still on a rookie contract and will be a free agent this year. Did you mean Jarrett Johnson? He left Baltimore for the Chargers and got four years, $19m. Even a highly paid guy like Ahmad Brooks (six years, $37m) has a low cap hit in Year 1 ($2.85m). If you did four years, $32m, you could do a $4m signing bonus + $3m roster bonus + $1m base salary in Year 1, and his cap hit in 2013 would be $5m. There's a ton you can do to bring that $8m average down in the first part of the contract. But I don't think it's going to take that much to get someone like Barwin or Kruger, if either of them even leave their teams.

 

Same thing with high level guards. Even Ben Grubbs ($2.7m cap hit) and Evan Mathis ($2m cap hit) would have been affordable; heck, we could have made Carl Nicks or Logan Mankins ($7m) work if we wanted to. Just have to get creative. I don't think there are any guards of that caliber available this year, but if we're looking at about $5-6m/year, we should be able to balance the cap hits out in a responsible way. We could sign two great linemen for $8-10m on the 2013 cap.

 

At safety, guys like Michael Griffin and Tyvon Branch got around $7m/year. They have $4.3m and $2.4m cap hits in 2012, respectively.

 

Per John Clayton, we'll have $46m in cap space in 2013.

 

If we went hog wild in free agency -- and I don't think we will, nor do I think we should -- we could sign two linemen, an outside backer, and a safety, all premium tier guys, and come in around $15-20m on the cap in 2013 for those four players. Plus $13m for our own free agents, plus $3m for draft picks, and we've spent $31-36m against the 2013 cap. (I should do a spreadsheet/table.) We'd still have an additional $10m in wiggle room.

 

I think we'll be okay.

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I'm tired of hearing colts fans say how joe reitz and Anthony castonzo are our 2 best linemen. Castonzo still has a lot to learn, needs to be more consistent and get stronger. Joe reitz is not a good guard whatsoever, he got mollywhopped a lot this season, a move to tackle needs to happen or release him. As for our best performer on the offensive line, that award goes to AQ Shipley, he did good bass blocking and a good job run blocking, in my opinion he can only get better, if he gets to play that is. H*** if we cant find 2 guards in the draft or free agency then I wouldn't mind seeing Shipley as a guard.

I only have one thing to say about your comments.

 

What the hell is mollywhopped???

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I only have one thing to say about your comments.

What the hell is mollywhopped???

He is right about his comments in my opinion. No

one was good on the offensive line. Mollywhopped means just getting beat. Honestly some of you sound like Anthony Castonzo's mother the way you stick up

for him. He was just as bad as the rest of them. Needed TE help all season long. I don't wanna hear "what OT doesn't get beat" They get beat, but not as often as Castonzo has. Second year is another filled with excuses. NUMBER ONE OFFENSE LINEMAN.

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He is right about his comments in my opinion. No

one was good on the offensive line. Mollywhopped means just getting beat. Honestly some of you sound like Anthony Castonzo's mother the way you stick up

for him. He was just as bad as the rest of them. Needed TE help all season long. I don't wanna hear "what OT doesn't get beat" They get beat, but not as often as Castonzo has. Second year is another filled with excuses. NUMBER ONE OFFENSE LINEMAN.

 

Holy...

 

I don't know what the difference is between the way you watch the games and the way I do, but I didn't see Castonzo getting beat anymore than any other left tackle in the league (and I watch a lot of games), nor did I see him getting anymore help from tight ends and backs than anyone else. I saw him do a pretty good job against some really good pass rushers, and I saw him have a handful of bad games as well. 

 

Not to mention the fact that he's a second year player coming off of injury, or the fact that the passing schemes ask for a whole heck of a lot out of the blockers, or the fact that the left guard position was a revolving door all season (in more ways than one). Castonzo isn't the best left tackle in the league, but he has played well given the circumstances. He's easily our best lineman.

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Maybe I am old school, but to me if you are a good offensive lineman you should be able to block in any scheme....get in the trenches and kick some tail!  Sure one may be better in one or the other.  Sooooooo yes it makes sense if you are looking at the OL who fits better....

 

I still think too much emphasis is put on the schemes....can the guy block Watt or can't he?  (The obvious answer is NO! :):funny:

 

 

I'm glad you said that Brent, cuz I was thinking the same thing. Honestly I've always been under the impression that ALL lines use a zone scheme. Otherwise on stunts you'd see linemen flipping with each other and that would just look stupid. Either you're good at blocking the guy in front of you, or you're not....and most of our linemen fall into the latter category.

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What's everyone talking about, this is rubbish! Colts OL stood their ground solid rarely giving up sacks, pressure or even just knock downs! Any blown protection was just deceptive domination ninja tactics to get the opponents to feel better about themselves then bam, the OL steps up and finally makes a good block, crushing their dreams and the Colts get the win.

As Sun Tzu said in The Art of War:

"I'll tell you what, you can take a good look at a butcher's butt by sticking your head up there, but wouldn't you rather take his word for it?"

"No, I mean is, you can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up a butcher's butt... No, wait. It's gotta be your bull."

Uhhhhh, perhaps I'm getting Sun Tzu confused with someone else.

Hmmmm???

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Levitre was considered lacking in upper body strength when he came out of college. I wouldn't call him weak or undersized, but he definitely fits a zone blocking scheme more than a man blocking scheme. I personally think we should go back to a zone scheme, and Levitre would be a good addition, but either way, he's an upgrade over what we've had at guard the past three seasons. Just wouldn't want us to pay $30-40m for a guard that isn't a good fit.

Never should have left the Zone scheme, Castonzo, Reitz, Satele, Mcglynn and even Justice are all Zone Blocking O Linemen, I been saying that all year

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I really don't get all the hate people have for Castonzo.  He is clearly our best lineman if you watch them.  He's the only one they don't give some form of help too.  No he's not the best left tackle in the league but for a second year player he's more than held his own.  He is also very athletic and can get out and run block which is something we haven't see from a LT since Glenn was here.  If we can get one of the top left tackles in the NFL then and only then would I think about moving Castonzo but those guys tend to be really expensive and can eat a good chunk of even 43 million.  I would much rather see the Colts get two stud guards which is where we really need help on the line and a solid right tackle that I would see us break the bank to get a guy like Long. 

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I'm tired of hearing colts fans say how joe reitz and Anthony castonzo are our 2 best linemen. Castonzo still has a lot to learn, needs to be more consistent and get stronger. Joe reitz is not a good guard whatsoever, he got mollywhopped a lot this season, a move to tackle needs to happen or release him. As for our best performer on the offensive line, that award goes to AQ Shipley, he did good bass blocking and a good job run blocking, in my opinion he can only get better, if he gets to play that is. H*** if we cant find 2 guards in the draft or free agency then I wouldn't mind seeing Shipley as a guard.

I agree, his bass blocking was good, but he needs to improve his trout blocking.  And let's please not even talk about his blocking against pike!

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