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THAT'S why Vinny is here!/Is Adam Vinateri worth the money we're paying him? (Merge)


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#41 Superman

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:19 PM

Vinatieri is still a very good kicker, despite the infuriating misses. If you look around the league the past couple of seasons, you'll note that we're doing pretty well at the position. It could be a LOT worse. I'd much rather keep our veteran kicker for the last year of his contract.


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#42 imacoltfan

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:44 PM

I thought McAfee hurt the team more than Vinatieri's miss.Never flipped the field; low punts enabled returns. The Ravens had over 100 return yards if I'm not mistaken. We had 0. Their special teams outplayed ours. Simple.

#43 GoColts8818

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:31 PM

Vinatieri is still a very good kicker, despite the infuriating misses. If you look around the league the past couple of seasons, you'll note that we're doing pretty well at the position. It could be a LOT worse. I'd much rather keep our veteran kicker for the last year of his contract.

I guess that's kinda my feeling.  Adam's numbers are down slightly from his career average.  It ended up being 79% but you have to adjust for two blocks which are not his fault.  He then ends up at 84% which is above his career average.  Frankly Adam rebounded from a slow start and had a VERY good back half of the season.  He went basically the last two months of the season without missing till yesterday.  I wonder how much of his struggles at the start were in part due to adjusting to a new long snapper.  Kickers are funny people and slight things like that throw them off.  Also that's just life with Adam.  He's seemingly always has a shaky stretch during the season which is why he doesn't go to more Pro-Bowls.  He has made a name for himself not by being perfect but for drilling last second kicks. 

 

I can see a scenario were maybe we go in a different direction but a good kicker is hard to find and you generally don't appreciate one till you no longer have one.  Also you can have a good kicker and then sometimes something just makes them lose it.  See what happened with Vandy.  Look at Ackers this year with the 49ers or Billy Cundiff last year with the Ravens.  You generally get no warning with it.  While I would agree Adam is probably not what he was in the prime of his career I think he's still good enough to stick with for his final season of his deal. 

 

It just gets to me when people seemingly sit around and wait for Adam to miss and then rush in here and call for his release and site age is the reason he should be released.  Well if age is the reason then people should be saying that all year not just when he misses a kick.  That strikes me as just being mad that he missed a kick.  Someone brought up Hilton and drops before while people might get upset with him for dropping it people don't wait for him to do it and then call for him to be released as a result.  Also people don't try to twist the game to blame the loss on his drops like they do with Adam. 

 

Again if people want to be upset that Adam missed a kick that's fair but when he's missed one kick since early November and it came from 40 yards into the wind I think it's also fair to go okay he missed one it happens.  You don't like it but it's not the end of the world either. 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#44 Colts420

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

Hate him? Blame him for the loss? Where did I say or imply that?

He missed a critical kick. Period.

There's plenty of blame to go around.

 

 

thats it. Bring back Vanderdrunk



#45 Fx Stryker

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:47 PM

Yea except the one he shanked to keep us in the game.

 

Still running that engine..



#46 Superman

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:15 PM

I guess that's kinda my feeling.  Adam's numbers are down slightly from his career average.  It ended up being 79% but you have to adjust for two blocks which are not his fault.  He then ends up at 84% which is above his career average.  Frankly Adam rebounded from a slow start and had a VERY good back half of the season.  He went basically the last two months of the season without missing till yesterday.  I wonder how much of his struggles at the start were in part due to adjusting to a new long snapper.  Kickers are funny people and slight things like that throw them off.  Also that's just life with Adam.  He's seemingly always has a shaky stretch during the season which is why he doesn't go to more Pro-Bowls.  He has made a name for himself not by being perfect but for drilling last second kicks. 

 

I can see a scenario were maybe we go in a different direction but a good kicker is hard to find and you generally don't appreciate one till you no longer have one.  Also you can have a good kicker and then sometimes something just makes them lose it.  See what happened with Vandy.  Look at Ackers this year with the 49ers or Billy Cundiff last year with the Ravens.  You generally get no warning with it.  While I would agree Adam is probably not what he was in the prime of his career I think he's still good enough to stick with for his final season of his deal. 

 

It just gets to me when people seemingly sit around and wait for Adam to miss and then rush in here and call for his release and site age is the reason he should be released.  Well if age is the reason then people should be saying that all year not just when he misses a kick.  That strikes me as just being mad that he missed a kick.  Someone brought up Hilton and drops before while people might get upset with him for dropping it people don't wait for him to do it and then call for him to be released as a result.  Also people don't try to twist the game to blame the loss on his drops like they do with Adam. 

 

Again if people want to be upset that Adam missed a kick that's fair but when he's missed one kick since early November and it came from 40 yards into the wind I think it's also fair to go okay he missed one it happens.  You don't like it but it's not the end of the world either. 

 

Add Mason Crosby to that list. McCarthy decided to go for 4th and 5 from the 35 (or so) the other night rather than have Mason Crosby try a long kick. A good kicker isn't a given anymore. You don't want to get rid of one when you have him. Vinatieri is worth the money we're paying him, and I expect us to keep him around for another year.

 

I agree that this smacks of people being bitter over a missed kick, coupled with the incessant need to have something to complain about. Vinatieri's misses earlier this season were frustrating, to say the least. The miss against the Ravens might have been a lot bigger than just three points, given that everything changes if you go from an eight point lead to a five point lead, not to mention field position. But still, when you have a veteran kicker who does what you ask him to do the majority of the time, you should be glad.


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#47 IndyTrav

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

Add Mason Crosby to that list. McCarthy decided to go for 4th and 5 from the 35 (or so) the other night rather than have Mason Crosby try a long kick. A good kicker isn't a given anymore. You don't want to get rid of one when you have him. Vinatieri is worth the money we're paying him, and I expect us to keep him around for another year.

I agree that this smacks of people being bitter over a missed kick, coupled with the incessant need to have something to complain about. Vinatieri's misses earlier this season were frustrating, to say the least. The miss against the Ravens might have been a lot bigger than just three points, given that everything changes if you go from an eight point lead to a five point lead, not to mention field position. But still, when you have a veteran kicker who does what you ask him to do the majority of the time, you should be glad.

I think Crosby and SFs Akers are a prime example of what happens to a kicker. When it goes, it goes FAST.

I like to argue. 


#48 House

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:38 PM

When does Bama's kicker come out. I want that guy lol.
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#49 Narcosys

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:32 AM

He's been mediocre at best all season. It's time for him to retire.

he was 26/33.  thats mediocre?



#50 SilentHill

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:18 AM

he was 26/33.  thats mediocre?

 

:yes:


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#51 Gramz

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:26 AM

Vinatieri is still a very good kicker, despite the infuriating misses. If you look around the league the past couple of seasons, you'll note that we're doing pretty well at the position. It could be a LOT worse. I'd much rather keep our veteran kicker for the last year of his contract.

Agree.  And I'm sure it's already been noted elsewhere,  but if Not for Vinny,  our score would have been 24-0  on Sunday.

He scored 9 of our only 9 points.  


"The attitude with which we approach the situation can determine our success or failure" ~ Peyton Manning.


#52 lollygagger8

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:44 PM

I mean really. He used to be Mr. Clutch. Used to be.

 

I know the missed FG in Baltimore wouldn't have changed much, but it seems like he's good for almost one miss per game if he kicks more than once.

 

He is in the bottom five (as far as kickers) and his paycheck exceeds his performance......

http://espn.go.com/n...ct/seasontype/2

 

Is there a better option?



#53 bavanlan

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:52 PM

Is he worth the money we're paying him?  Probably not, but his contract isn't so outrageous that we'll have to replace him this year regardless of whether or not we can find someone better.


Haters Gonna Hate.

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#54 Narcosys

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:20 PM

he was 26/33.  thats mediocre?

 

 

:yes:

So what were the distances and locations that he missed?



#55 GoColts8818

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:28 PM

he was 26/33.  thats mediocre?

He was really 26 of 31.  Two were blocked and unless Adam has learned how to kick the ball threw someone that's not really his fault.  He averaged out to 84% when you factor in the two blocks.  His career average is 82%.  Looks like a normal year for Adam to me.  I know this doesn't apply to you so please don't take it as directed as you but haters are going to hate when it comes to Adam. 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#56 Narcosys

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:30 PM

He was really 26 of 31.  Two were blocked and unless Adam has learned how to kick the ball threw someone that's not really his fault.  He averaged out to 84% when you factor in the two blocks.  His career average is 82%.  Looks like a normal year for Adam to me.  I know this doesn't apply to you so please don't take it as directed as you but haters are going to hate when it comes to Adam. 

Thank you very much for that.  People always look for a reason to blame someone or something, kickers are easy targets.



#57 Superman

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:30 PM

he was 26/33.  thats mediocre?

 

It is. That's 27th in the league this season. Even adjusted for the two blocks, he'd be 26/31, and that's 84%, and he'd be 19th. He had a mediocre year.


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#58 shakedownstreet

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

we have much more important issues to deal with than adam  :dunno:



#59 SilentHill

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

So what were the distances and locations that he missed?

 

irrelevant.


“What he does on the field – he’s an assassin…Class with cruelty.” – Jim Harbaugh on Andrew Luck

 

"It's okay to be smarter than everyone else, but you can't go around pointing it out!" – Mary Cooper


#60 Narcosys

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:39 PM

irrelevant.

Distances are relevant.  Missing a 20 yarder is less expected than missing a 52 yarder.  difficulty of distance and exterior factors on the ball.  Locations are relevant because if its indoor, there are no outside factors affecting the ball.  If its in an open stadium, wind and weather conditions have factors on the ball which make it difficult to adjust and be more accurate.

 

Relevant.



#61 Narcosys

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:45 PM

On top of all this, Half of his made field goals were over 40 yards.  9 over 40 and 4 over 50.  How does that compare to the rest of the league.  Cause thats pretty damn good.



#62 Superman

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:50 PM

I mean really. He used to be Mr. Clutch. Used to be.

 

I know the missed FG in Baltimore wouldn't have changed much, but it seems like he's good for almost one miss per game if he kicks more than once.

 

He is in the bottom five (as far as kickers) and his paycheck exceeds his performance......

http://espn.go.com/n...ct/seasontype/2

 

Is there a better option?

 

Is he worth the money we're paying him?  Probably not, but his contract isn't so outrageous that we'll have to replace him this year regardless of whether or not we can find someone better.

 

I don't think there's a better option. I'm sure there's a cheaper option. But we have peace of mind with Vinatieri, at least I do. I expect him to make every kick. He hasn't suffered any kind of inexplicable breakdown, like Akers or Crosby. Yeah, he missed a few, but he's always done that. He's the same kicker he's always been. The difference is that, when the game is on the line, you can bet that he's going to come through.

 

I'm fine with letting him walk after his contract is up. We're carrying him at $3.4m against the cap for 2013, and then he's a free agent. That's about 2.8% of the cap, nothing to get worked up about. Releasing him would result in a dead hit of $1.2m, then you sign or draft his replacement with a $450k cap hit, and you're still paying about $1.7m for kickers, 1.4% of the cap. Negligible difference. I'd rather let Vinatieri finish his contract and then draft or sign his replacement in 2014.


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#63 Superman

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:50 PM

On top of all this, Half of his made field goals were over 40 yards.  9 over 40 and 4 over 50.  How does that compare to the rest of the league.  Cause thats pretty damn good.

 

I bet that's in the top half of the league. Hadn't thought about that.


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#64 GoColts8818

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:52 PM

irrelevant.

No it's not missing kicks from inside 40 yards is not the same as missing from beyond 40 yards. 

 

He missed a 37 yarder in the season opener in Chicago

 

He missed a 36 yarder vs. the Jags.

 

He missed a 54 yarder vs. the Packers

 

He had a 37 yarder blocked at the Titans

 

He missed a 48 yarder vs. Miami

 

He had a 54 yarder blocked vs Miami

 

He missed a 58 yarder at New England.

 

He would not miss again till the Ravens game where he missed a 40 yarder.

 

So he really missed two kicks inside of 40 yards all year both coming with a new snapper very early in the year I would guess that had more to do with the misses than we really know.  Taking out the two blocks of his six misses four were from 40 yards or more.  Those are much easier to understand than misses inside of 40 yards.  Again you don't like when it happens but it's not like he was missing chip shots all year. 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#65 Narcosys

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

No it's not missing kicks from inside 40 yards is not the same as missing from beyond 40 yards. 

 

He missed a 37 yarder in the season opener in Chicago

 

He missed a 36 yarder vs. the Jags.

 

He missed a 54 yarder vs. the Packers

 

He had a 37 yarder blocked at the Titans

 

He missed a 48 yarder vs. Miami

 

He had a 54 yarder blocked vs Miami

 

He missed a 58 yarder at New England.

 

He would not miss again till the Ravens game where he missed a 40 yarder.

 

So he really missed two kicks inside of 40 yards all year both coming with a new snapper very early in the year I would guess that had more to do with the misses than we really know.  Taking out the two blocks of his six misses four were from 40 yards or more.  Those are much easier to understand than misses inside of 40 yards.  Again you don't like when it happens but it's not like he was missing chip shots all year. 

Again, thank you. 

 

 Chicago is an open stadium is it not? Right next to a river.  It is windy there and I am  pretty sure that place has alot of misses.  Just me.



#66 GoColts8818

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

I don't think there's a better option. I'm sure there's a cheaper option. But we have peace of mind with Vinatieri, at least I do. I expect him to make every kick. He hasn't suffered any kind of inexplicable breakdown, like Akers or Crosby. Yeah, he missed a few, but he's always done that. He's the same kicker he's always been. The difference is that, when the game is on the line, you can bet that he's going to come through.

EXACTLY!!!

 

Adam's not paid what he's paid because he's perfect he never has been.  That's why he has not gone to more Pro-Bowls over the course of his career.  He's paid what he's paid because you know if you need a last second kick he's going to drill it.  He's missed one of those over his time since coming to Indianapolis and that was in 2007.  We got what we paid for. 

I'm fine with letting him walk after his contract is up. We're carrying him at $3.4m against the cap for 2013, and then he's a free agent. That's about 2.8% of the cap, nothing to get worked up about. Releasing him would result in a dead hit of $1.2m, then you sign or draft his replacement with a $450k cap hit, and you're still paying about $1.7m for kickers, 1.4% of the cap. Negligible difference. I'd rather let Vinatieri finish his contract and then draft or sign his replacement in 2014.

That's why I think Adam keeps his job we aren't really saving much by releasing him and going with another kicker to make it worth it and there is no real promise that the new kicker is going to be any better than what we already have. 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#67 jskinnz

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

I don't think there's a better option. I'm sure there's a cheaper option. But we have peace of mind with Vinatieri, at least I do. I expect him to make every kick. He hasn't suffered any kind of inexplicable breakdown, like Akers or Crosby. Yeah, he missed a few, but he's always done that. He's the same kicker he's always been. The difference is that, when the game is on the line, you can bet that he's going to come through.

 

I'm fine with letting him walk after his contract is up. We're carrying him at $3.4m against the cap for 2013, and then he's a free agent. That's about 2.8% of the cap, nothing to get worked up about. Releasing him would result in a dead hit of $1.2m, then you sign or draft his replacement with a $450k cap hit, and you're still paying about $1.7m for kickers, 1.4% of the cap. Negligible difference. I'd rather let Vinatieri finish his contract and then draft or sign his replacement in 2014.

 

Thanks for the reasoned response.  I especially appreciate the cap breakdown and how really small a percentage it is.  I have never understood why people get caught up in how much the Colts decide to pay a guy.  It is not their cash and as you point out, it is not like they are paying the kicker QB type money. 

 

Of the things to worry about in this off-season replacing AV is not one of them.



#68 Montana

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:39 PM

That's true, but saying they wouldn't have played better is equally unknowable.

Yeah???   Who said they wouldn't have??








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