Who has the Edge..Jim Caldwell or Chuck Pagano?

[betheafan41]

Caldwell only knows the manning led colts. and the 4-3 defensive scheme. alot of things have changed in indy since last season so i would have to say caldwell does not know as much as you would think he would know.

as far as pagano goes, its tough to say. he should know the weaknesses of flacco and the raven offense as im sure he has ran his defense against the starting offense numerous times during practice and camp. BUT whats to say they hadnt changed up things this week to throw pagano off??

[terpsnation]

Caldwell only knows the manning led colts. and the 4-3 defensive scheme. alot of things have changed in indy since last season so i would have to say caldwell does not know as much as you would think he would know.

as far as pagano goes, its tough to say. he should know the weaknesses of flacco and the raven offense as im sure he has ran his defense against the starting offense numerous times during practice and camp. BUT whats to say they hadnt changed up things this week to throw pagano off??

I would say that any value from Chuck's time in Baltimore would come when your offense is on the field.  He doesn't know much about the Ravens' offense - but he should know somewhat how our defensive schemes are set up, and ways to exploit their flaws.

[austriancolt]

Caldwell had no clue as he was the Colts head coach why should he know now anything about us? 

It's a clear advantage for Pagano, he knows the Ravens Defense, he knows the Players etc. Colts changed a lot last summer, new coaches, new schemes, new players, this should be a small edge for Indy.

[Hans Moleman]

Beyond that I think Pagano is a better coach than Caldwell, the Colts have had much more turnover/change in terms of roster and philosophy in the last year than the Ravens have had. So, Pagano's history with the Ravens should be more relevant and useful. 

[NewEra]

havent read through, but theres no doubt in my mind Pagano has the clear cut edge. hands down!!

[Jason_]

Sure, Pagano would probably have some knowledge of the defense the ravens will run.  However, on the flip side, the ravens would have some knowledge of the type of defense Pagano will run due to the fact that he was running his defense with them just last year.  The ravens know Pagano's defense.  Pagano knows the ravens know his defense.  The ravens know that Pagano knows that the ravens know his defense.  And Pagano knows that the ravens know that pagano knows that the ravens know his defense.  And so on and so on to infinity....and vice versa. 

 

They'll both have to change things up to keep the other from knowing what they're going to do so I honestly don't think there's an edge either way in regards to familiarity. 

[oldunclemark]

mark this is a loaded question if I've ever seen one. Lets see Pagano vs Blinky, heck Arians vs Blinky, no contest! Plus Calwell doesn't know the Colts at all, we are a horse of a different color.

I'm just causing trouble....

[GoColts8818]

Without question pagano and that has nothing to do with pagano being the better coach. This is not the same Colts Caldwell coached. 37 new players. A new system on defense and offense. This is a very different team from Caldwell Colts. Odds are he would be more familiar with the Broncos and Peyton's offense than he would be with ours.

The ravens on the other hand run pretty much do the same stuff on D they did under pagano. He will know what they like to do. Rather the Colts have the talent to attack it or not or out execute them will decide if we win this game or not. Keep in mind the ravens also know what we are trying to do on defense as well and they play the steelers twice a year which our offense is based on as well. That's where the ravens will go for game planning this week not Caldwell's time with a very different Colts team.

[Jason_]

Without question pagano and that has nothing to do with pagano being the better coach. This is not the same Colts Caldwell coached. 37 new players. A new system on defense and offense. This is a very different team from Caldwell Colts. Odds are he would be more familiar with the Broncos and Peyton's offense than he would be with ours.

The ravens on the other hand run pretty much do the same stuff on D they did under pagano. He will know what they like to do. Rather the Colts have the talent to attack it or not or out execute them will decide if we win this game or not. Keep in mind the ravens also know what we are trying to do on defense as well and they play the steelers twice a year which our offense is based on as well. That's where the ravens will go for game planning this week not Caldwell's time with a very different Colts team.

 

And like I said, the ravens then will also know what Pagano likes to do.  So I don't really think there's much of an advantage either way in that regard.

[GoColts8818]

And like I said, the ravens then will also know what Pagano likes to do.  So I don't really think there's much of an advantage either way in that regard.

Right which I addressed later in my post.

 

With that said the one thing that goes in the Colts favor is that it is different players trying to run the defense.  Rather than with the Ravens it's the exact same players for the most part playing the defense that Pagano coached.  He knows what those players don't do well in that defense and how to attack it.  Now is that some trump card?  I don't think so.  Like I said before I think it will come down to how well do the Colts execute with the game plan that Pagano comes up with.  

 

Either way if you asked me which would be the greater edge the Colts having Pagano for Sunday or the Ravens having Caldwell for Sunday I am going with Pagano because it's the same defense with mostly the same players he coached in Baltimore where as the Colts are almost completely different than from a few players that Caldwell coached in Indy.  How much of advantage is it?  That I would agree with you in that I doubt it is that much. 

[ConBro]

I would say Chuck based on all of the changes to schemes and everything. It's practically brand new from both a defensive and offensive standpoint. Chuck has some insight to provide on that defense though. It will be interesting to watch this chess match unfold!

[deedub75]

Caldwell owes us a favor......

[NM_Colts]

Not sure where you are pulling your data from on Flacco vs Luck.

 

Over the last 7 games, Luck has had an average QB rating of 74.95.  Throwing out the Ravens game against the Bengals where Flacco only had 8 attempts, Flacco has an average QB rating of 93.12.

 

Flacco has clearly performed better than Luck in recent games, even though the Colts have a better record in those games.

 

EDIT: Also - looking at the defensive rankings for those games - the average pass defense ranking for the Colts opponents in the last 7 games was 17.6.  On the other hand, Ravens opponents ranked 14.4.  Therefore, Flacco not only played better than Luck in the last 7 games, he also did it against better pass defenses.

 

Not criticizing or questioning Flacco.... what is his QB rating under Caldwell as opposed to that under Cameron?

 

Not questioning play, but how will Flacco perform under Caldwell's questionable game calling?

[PrincetonTiger]

Pagano

[terpsnation]

Not criticizing or questioning Flacco.... what is his QB rating under Caldwell as opposed to that under Cameron?

 

Not questioning play, but how will Flacco perform under Caldwell's questionable game calling?

Joe's only had two full games under Caldwell.  Came out against the Broncos w/ 76.5 and then dominated the Giants w/ 114.4.

 

Hard to tell anything from just those two games though.  I agree - we will see how it goes.

[NM_Colts]

Joe's only had two full games under Caldwell.  Came out against the Broncos w/ 76.5 and then dominated the Giants w/ 114.4.

 

Hard to tell anything from just those two games though.  I agree - we will see how it goes.

 

Another question Terps:

I didn't watch those 2 games. Did Caldwell let Flacco run his own plays (with a little guidance) or did it seem he (Caldwell) was more involved?

 

I'm curious because (a) 1 of the criticisms on Cam was that he didn't allow Flacco a little more freedom make adjustments on the field when necessary and (b) because Caldwell is inexperienced as an OC.

[GwinnettColt]

Pagano knows Baltimore's defense.

 

Cory Redding has practiced against Baltimore's offense. 

 

Caldwell wouldn't recognize Indy's offense or their defense, although he has played against similar types. 

 

Other advantages/disadvantages:

 

Baltimore:  home game, Ray Lewis' last season,

 

Indy:  playing high, Defense has done well lately (at least in the second half).

[terpsnation]

Another question Terps:

I didn't watch those 2 games. Did Caldwell let Flacco run his own plays (with a little guidance) or did it seem he (Caldwell) was more involved?

 

I'm curious because (a) 1 of the criticisms on Cam was that he didn't allow Flacco a little more freedom make adjustments on the field when necessary and (b) because Caldwell is inexperienced as an OC.

 

I definitely wouldn't say that Caldwell was any more involved than Cam - but I don't think Joe had much more control either.  I didn't really expect to see too much of a change since Caldwell has been OC for only 3 weeks so far, and it's relatively difficult to change an offensive style on a dime.  

 

Also, this year it appeared that Cam was being forced to allow Joe to run the no-huddle and call his own plays.  I think the main issue that the Ravens had with Cam was his vanilla playbook, his inept play calling, and the fact that he was a complete control freak.

 

I do believe that the move to Caldwell was to allow Flacco some more control in calling the plays, but also to give the ball to Ray Rice more often on a consistent basis.  With Cam, there would be games where we'd get behind, and all of a sudden Rice would no longer carry the ball.  He's an integral part of our offense, and to completely shut down the running game early in games was mind boggling.  I also think we will try to use more complex plays, including actually utilizing the middle of the field on passing routes, which Cam never ever did.

 

I'm not sure if we will keep Caldwell as OC during the offseason, or if it was just a temporary position until we can find a seasoned OC.

[Hamboning Will Save URLife]

Obviously Pagano, cause Caldwell is an * !!!!!!

[NM_Colts]

I definitely wouldn't say that Caldwell was any more involved than Cam - but I don't think Joe had much more control either.  I didn't really expect to see too much of a change since Caldwell has been OC for only 3 weeks so far, and it's relatively difficult to change an offensive style on a dime.  

 

Also, this year it appeared that Cam was being forced to allow Joe to run the no-huddle and call his own plays.  I think the main issue that the Ravens had with Cam was his vanilla playbook, his inept play calling, and the fact that he was a complete control freak.

 

I do believe that the move to Caldwell was to allow Flacco some more control in calling the plays, but also to give the ball to Ray Rice more often on a consistent basis.  With Cam, there would be games where we'd get behind, and all of a sudden Rice would no longer carry the ball.  He's an integral part of our offense, and to completely shut down the running game early in games was mind boggling.  I also think we will try to use more complex plays, including actually utilizing the middle of the field on passing routes, which Cam never ever did.

 

I'm not sure if we will keep Caldwell as OC during the offseason, or if it was just a temporary position until we can find a seasoned OC.

 

Thanks Terps.

 

I wonder if either of our teams would be in the running for Norv Turner?

[NewColtsFan]

Good thread....    and I'm late to this party....

 

But I think the Colts have the edge on multiple levels, and I'd like to bring a new one into the discussion....

 

As hard as find this to believe,  Jim Caldwell, their brand new OC,  has never been a play-caller in his life.

 

I'll say that again.    JC has never been a play caller in his life.    I think that gives the Colts a big advantage.

 

Playoff football is a different animal altogether.    Every call is magnified.   Much more important.    If we can hang around and stay close,  then everyone will start thinking about our record number of comeback wins this year.   That puts more pressure on JC and Flacco and the Ravens offense.    Pressure builds.    Don't make a mistake.   Make the right call.     

 

If I'm JC I'm putting the rock in the hands of Ray Rice until Indy shows we can stop him.   I look at the game tape from the KC game.     But Flacco won't like that much.    He wants his throws and glory too.    Stay close,   and come the 4th quarter, all bets are off....     

 

Hopefully Jim Caldwell's inexperience as a play caller is the gift that keeps on giving....    to the Colts!        

[terpsnation]

Good thread....    and I'm late to this party....

 

But I think the Colts have the edge on multiple levels, and I'd like to bring a new one into the discussion....

 

As hard as find this to believe,  Jim Caldwell, their brand new OC,  has never been a play-caller in his life.

 

I'll say that again.    JC has never been a play caller in his life.    I think that gives the Colts a big advantage.

 

Playoff football is a different animal altogether.    Every call is magnified.   Much more important.    If we can hang around and stay close,  then everyone will start thinking about our record number of comeback wins this year.   That puts more pressure on JC and Flacco and the Ravens offense.    Pressure builds.    Don't make a mistake.   Make the right call.     

 

If I'm JC I'm putting the rock in the hands of Ray Rice until Indy shows we can stop him.   I look at the game tape from the KC game.     But Flacco won't like that much.    He wants his throws and glory too.    Stay close,   and come the 4th quarter, all bets are off....     

 

Hopefully Jim Caldwell's inexperience as a play caller is the gift that keeps on giving....    to the Colts!        

Joe is a very unselfish quarterback.  He wants to win more than anything.

 

One of the reasons Cam Cameron was fired was because he couldn't bring himself to put the ball in Rice's hands more often.  This season there have been tons of times where Joe has audibled to a run play, or set a run play in motion in the no-huddle offense.

 

I don't think that will be a factor.  For the rest - I agree.

[NewColtsFan]

Joe is a very unselfish quarterback.  He wants to win more than anything.

 

One of the reasons Cam Cameron was fired was because he couldn't bring himself to put the ball in Rice's hands more often.  This season there have been tons of times where Joe has audibled to a run play, or set a run play in motion in the no-huddle offense.

 

I don't think that will be a factor.  For the rest - I agree.

 

For what it's worth,  I like Flacco.    Best I can tell,  I like him more than most here seem to.

 

But while I'm sure Flacco wants to win, I think he also wants to be recognized as a top-5 quarterback that he thinks he is.  I believe those were his words when his contract negotiations this past summer got public.    I don't think he's entirely comfortable turning and handing the ball off to Rice for 25 carries if JF is not a key part of the offense.

 

I could easily be wrong.    But this is his FA year, and I was surprised to see he's an UNrestricted FA.   He can go where he wants.    That surprised me.    Strange things could happen.

[terpsnation]

For what it's worth,  I like Flacco.    Best I can tell,  I like him more than most here seem to.

 

But while I'm sure Flacco wants to win, I think he also wants to be recognized as a top-5 quarterback that he thinks he is.  I believe those were his words when his contract negotiations this past summer got public.    I don't think he's entirely comfortable turning and handing the ball off to Rice for 25 carries if JF is not a key part of the offense.

 

I could easily be wrong.    But this is his FA year, and I was surprised to see he's an UNrestricted FA.   He can go where he wants.    That surprised me.    Strange things could happen.

I think it was his agent who stated that Flacco negotiates his pay by his performance on the field.

 

He hasn't played like an elite QB this year, therefore, by his own standards, he shouldn't get elite pay.

 

I do believe that the Ravens will reach an agreement with Joe, and I don't think his pay will be abnormally high.  If not, I'm sure he'll find "elite" pay in a place like Arizona...but I don't really know if he'd want to leave the team that he's grown up with.

[ConBro]

Well Jim made it to the SB until his QB threw a pick 6 or he could have a ring.

 

I think Pagano is the better coach though. He is the perfect guy right now for the Colts. 

Jim DOES have a ring. Remember Super Bowl XLI in 2006? Or did everything go hazy after blowing a  21-6 lead in the AFCCG? Caldwell was on the coaching staff from 2002 through last season.

[Snowglobe]

Jim DOES have a ring. Remember Super Bowl XLI in 2006? Or did everything go hazy after blowing a  21-6 lead in the AFCCG? Caldwell was on the coaching staff from 2002 through last season.

 

Obviously I'm talking about as coaches. Hence why I said "Pagano is the better coach though". Caldwell has that ring because of Manning.

[Susie Q]

Obviously I'm talking about as coaches. Hence why I said "Pagano is the better coach though". Caldwell has that ring because of Manning.

Don't most coaches have their SB rings because of their QB's and players?  They can coach but the players have to execute. 

[Gavin]

Obviously I'm talking about as coaches. Hence why I said "Pagano is the better coach though". Caldwell has that ring because of Manning.

Actually it was our defense vs the Bears that got us that ring, Manning threw a TD in the first quarter and that was it (he also threw a pick)also a HUGE assist by our running game, Peyton was however 25 of 38 for 247 yards which is alright but nothing great, It can be argued Manning has that ring because of Caldwell and his coaching staffs gameplanning and its inarguable he has it because of the execution of the defense, Hey I love watching Peyton, always have and alway will but Caldwell had a hand in getting us that ring as much as anyone on that team or more

[Snowglobe]

Actually it was our defense vs the Bears that got us that ring, Manning threw a TD in the first quarter and that was it (he also threw a pick)also a HUGE assist by our running game, Peyton was however 25 of 38 for 247 yards which is alright but nothing great, It can be argued Manning has that ring because of Caldwell and his coaching staffs gameplanning and its inarguable he has it because of the execution of the defense, Hey I love watching Peyton, always have and alway will but Caldwell had a hand in getting us that ring as much as anyone on that team or more

 

But keep in mind how clutch Manning was in the AFCCG and the divisional game. Without that, the Colts don't have a ring. All I'm trying to say here is Caldwell is a terrible head coach. 

[Snowglobe]

Don't most coaches have their SB rings because of their QB's and players?  They can coach but the players have to execute. 

 

Yes true but Caldwell has done some stupid things. Look at the Colts '10 wild card game. He calls a timeout with 30 seconds left basically giving the Jets a free play or two. That was absolutely stupid.

[Susie Q]

Actually it was our defense vs the Bears that got us that ring, Manning threw a TD in the first quarter and that was it (he also threw a pick)also a HUGE assist by our running game, Peyton was however 25 of 38 for 247 yards which is alright but nothing great, It can be argued Manning has that ring because of Caldwell and his coaching staffs gameplanning and its inarguable he has it because of the execution of the defense, Hey I love watching Peyton, always have and alway will but Caldwell had a hand in getting us that ring as much as anyone on that team or more

Wasn't Dungy the Coach when we won the SB?

[Gavin]

But keep in mind how clutch Manning was in the AFCCG and the divisional game. Without that, the Colts don't have a ring. All I'm trying to say here is Caldwell is a terrible head coach. 

30 of 38 in wildcard game is indeed great but the 1 TD and 3 picks is not

Division game after that 15 of 30 good but 0 TD's and 2 picks

Conference game-27 of 47 1 TD 1 pick great yardage though no doubt 349

 

 

Hey Mannings career speaks for itself, He will go down as the best regular season QB ever given a few more years but our SB win was a team effort from the coaches on down

[subvet]

I've never heard of such a thing..The Baltimore offensive coordinator is the old Indy head coach.

He Knows the Colts.

But the new Indy head coach is the former Baltimore defensive co-ordinator.?

He knows the Ravens

Can that be real??

Who REALLY has the edge?

Caldwell didn't bother to learn the playbook when he was here, why does anyone expect him to remember it now?

[Gavin]

Wasn't Dungy the Coach when we won the SB?

ah thats right I got to lookin at the Bears vs Colts SB and not the New Orleans one, Gonna check out the other one now lol, but it still stands our defense did win that Bears vs Colts SB

[Snowglobe]

30 of 38 in wildcard game is indeed great but the 1 TD and 3 picks is not

Division game after that 15 of 30 good but 0 TD's and 2 picks

Conference game-27 of 47 1 TD 1 pick great yardage though no doubt 349

 

 

Hey Mannings career speaks for itself, He will go down as the best regular season QB ever given a few more years but our SB win was a team effort from the coaches on down

 

I'm okay with that. Rare chance I was sticking up for Manning but oh well

[Gavin]

                                 Division Game (Baltimore)

Manning 2 TD's and  a pick, 246 yards passing 30 of 44 passes completed

defense forced 4 turnovers

 

 

                                    Conference (Jets)

Manning had a huge game 377 yards 3 TD's  1 to Collie, Clark and Garcon

 

                                   SuperBowl (NO)

1 TD vs NO, 1 pick 31 of 45 333 yards

 

 

Manning was good but our defense was great in the playoffs

 

Both years was a team effort

[scootermac23]

I believe that it works both ways. I just hope that the Ravens try and implement a lot of different things that they wouldn't normally try because of Chuck. Might lead to some busted coverages.

They'll know Chuck's tendencies and how to really work on Redding.

I don't see JC helping out too much with info on our offence. I can see him saying "That Reggie Wayne guy is pretty good, try and cover him".

[ConBro]

Obviously I'm talking about as coaches. Hence why I said "Pagano is the better coach though". Caldwell has that ring because of Manning.

0-2 since Spygate

[colts_mp]

this was answered pretty clearly on the field today.  Colts offense 9 points.  Ravens offense 24 points

[Poeticwisdom555]

Who won the game??.. Oh that's right.