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Andrew Luck vs RGIII. This should settle things among those who don't know which to chose

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His brother was pretty good once

 

Oh that guy that got robbed by the refs in SB 40? I remember him.

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Oh that guy that got robbed by the refs in SB 40? I remember him.

Yeah, the zebras were good to the steelers that day

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It might if it were particularly in depth or even terribly accurate.

 

Cowherd said that fans don't have the access to understand what's being asked of QBs and, for the most part, he's correct.  Problem is, a lot of media members don't have that much access either and Tim certainly seems to be among them.  Two read plays are still a very low percentage of our offense with the exception of designed WR screen plays (pretty normal for most teams).  Hasselbeck also grossly oversimplifies what Griffin is asked to do on certain plays.

 

Could Andrew Luck play in a college style option offense with a power running game, a big successful RB, and a short play action style passing game? If Luck played in this kind of offense would he be successful and would his stats be very different (read better)? Could Luck run Washington's offense? Yes, yes, and yes. Could RG 3 play in a high risk, big chunk passing offensive, where early in the season he sometimes had to pass 40-50 times in a game to have a chance at winning, behind a sub standard offensive line under constant pressure, with Rb's that had to make yardage thru thin holes? Would RG 3's stats look different in this type of offense (read worse)? Could RG 3 run the Colts/BA offensive system? Would RG 3 run the Colts offense better than Andrew? Maybe, yes, maybe, no.

Bottom line here's is what i am convinced of, NOBODY could have run the Colts offense better than Andrew did this year.

Here's what I suspect, a college read option offense run by a pro team is a passing phase and the success of that offense will pass as pro defenses get the opportunity to defend it more (like the Wildcat). By keeping RG 3 in a "mickey mouse" college offense for short term success the Redskins are limiting RG 3's growth and potential as a QB.

Let's compare Luck and RG3 is like comparing Apples and Oranges. My response is let's not.

 

I think you sell Griffin short by saying that Luck could do what he does in the Redskins' system.  Luck would look better in a WCO-style offense and he would probably be pretty good at executing the zone read if he was asked to.  His short-intermediate accuracy still isn't what Griffin's is.  His ability to sell the play action isn't what Griffin's is.  His ability to make on-target throws under duress isn't what Griffin's is.

 

It's also insulting to call this a Mickey mouse offense.  It's a pro offense that borrowed an element from the college game.  That element hasn't been figured out by 13 different NFL teams, some with two cracks at it, because of the way it's been implemented into an established and historically successful NFL offense.  Teams may learn to defend it in time but they won't be able to know when it's coming and they won't be able to defend it without having vulnerabilities elsewhere that can be exploited.  The Redskins coaching staff is extremely good at identifying and capitalizing on those types of vulnerabilities.

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It might if it were particularly in depth or even terribly accurate.

 

Cowherd said that fans don't have the access to understand what's being asked of QBs and, for the most part, he's correct.  Problem is, a lot of media members don't have that much access either and Tim certainly seems to be among them.  Two read plays are still a very low percentage of our offense with the exception of designed WR screen plays (pretty normal for most teams).  Hasselbeck also grossly oversimplifies what Griffin is asked to do on certain plays.

 

 

I think you sell Griffin short by saying that Luck could do what he does in the Redskins' system.  Luck would look better in a WCO-style offense and he would probably be pretty good at executing the zone read if he was asked to.  His short-intermediate accuracy still isn't what Griffin's is.  His ability to sell the play action isn't what Griffin's is.  His ability to make on-target throws under duress isn't what Griffin's is.

 

It's also insulting to call this a Mickey mouse offense.  It's a pro offense that borrowed an element from the college game.  That element hasn't been figured out by 13 different NFL teams, some with two cracks at it, because of the way it's been implemented into an established and historically successful NFL offense.  Teams may learn to defend it in time but they won't be able to know when it's coming and they won't be able to defend it without having vulnerabilities elsewhere that can be exploited.  The Redskins coaching staff is extremely good at identifying and capitalizing on those types of vulnerabilities.

 

 

"His ability to make on-target throws under duress isn't what Griffin's is."

 

 

Really , really full of absurd bias. And yes .. of coarse Hassleback is totally full of crap.

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"His ability to make on-target throws under duress isn't what Griffin's is."

 

 

Really , really full of absurd bias. And yes .. of coarse Hassleback is totally full of crap.

 

Less biased than perhaps poorly phrased.  I'm not talking about the pressure of the moment or anything like that.  Luck is fantastic in high pressure situations.

 

What I was shooting for was more a matter of footwork and being forced to make throws while moving away from pressure.  Luck is not always quick to reset his feet when forced to move off his spot and his accuracy is compromised when he doesn't get the time to set up for throws.  Most of his bad throws come back to footwork under pressure.  Griffin's ball velocity and accuracy is affected less in those situations.  It's kind of difficult to ascertain why that is but, if I had to guess, I'd say that raw arm strength plays a big part of it and there's probably a more developed sense of proprioception in the guy with the stronger and less NFL-QB-conventional athletic background.

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I think you sell Griffin short by saying that Luck could do what he does in the Redskins' system.  Luck would look better in a WCO-style offense and he would probably be pretty good at executing the zone read if he was asked to.  His short-intermediate accuracy still isn't what Griffin's is.  His ability to sell the play action isn't what Griffin's is.  His ability to make on-target throws under duress isn't what Griffin's is.

 

It's also insulting to call this a Mickey mouse offense.  It's a pro offense that borrowed an element from the college game.  That element hasn't been figured out by 13 different NFL teams, some with two cracks at it, because of the way it's been implemented into an established and historically successful NFL offense.  Teams may learn to defend it in time but they won't be able to know when it's coming and they won't be able to defend it without having vulnerabilities elsewhere that can be exploited.  The Redskins coaching staff is extremely good at identifying and capitalizing on those types of vulnerabilities.

My main point was let's not compare them because the systems they play within, the talent that surrounds them, and the particular strengths of each player are too different to do more than speculate whom is "better".

 

I guessing you would agree that as a fan you would not like to see the Redskins make a 1-1 swap of QB's with the Colts and neither would I.

 

As for being insulted by the "mickey mouse" label for the Redskins read option plays that are a part of their offense I apologize if that offends, I would amend that if I could to the word gimmick. The Redskins are taking advantage of RG's exceptional physical skills at running the option as a part of their offense and RG is very good at it but if you really think that if RG will play for 13 years (like Manning) running a read option then you are kidding yourself. A read option offense allows the defense exactly what it needs, more opportunities to hit RG and remove him from the game. 

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Less biased than perhaps poorly phrased.  I'm not talking about the pressure of the moment or anything like that.  Luck is fantastic in high pressure situations.

 

What I was shooting for was more a matter of footwork and being forced to make throws while moving away from pressure.  Luck is not always quick to reset his feet when forced to move off his spot and his accuracy is compromised when he doesn't get the time to set up for throws.  Most of his bad throws come back to footwork under pressure.  Griffin's ball velocity and accuracy is affected less in those situations.  It's kind of difficult to ascertain why that is but, if I had to guess, I'd say that raw arm strength plays a big part of it and there's probably a more developed sense of proprioception in the guy with the stronger and less NFL-QB-conventional athletic background.

 

 

 

I give. I have no idea how to counter all this nonsense.

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Indy played 5 playoff teams...

 

Hou       7, ...   they played the exact same schedule Indy did w the exception of Balt and Den.

NE      6

Denver   5

Seattle    5

SF         5

Minny     7

Wash      4   ...........   yes..   4, but they play in the NFC EAST...    yada yada yada...

Atlanta...............  2  ....   yes 2...  but Indy feasted on bottom dwellers...

 

Sigh....  interesting what we find when one looks aye.... 

Here a counter point for people who say we just had a weak schedule, Luck has better stats against playoff bound teams, much better. He has twice as many TDs as INTs(14-7 I think, don't remember the exact numbers) but against non playoff teams its nearly even (9-11?) completion % is slightly better. FJC where are ya?

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I give. I have no idea how to counter all this nonsense.

 

Less biased than perhaps poorly phrased.  I'm not talking about the pressure of the moment or anything like that.  Luck is fantastic in high pressure situations.

 

What I was shooting for was more a matter of footwork and being forced to make throws while moving away from pressure.  Luck is not always quick to reset his feet when forced to move off his spot and his accuracy is compromised when he doesn't get the time to set up for throws.  Most of his bad throws come back to footwork under pressure.  Griffin's ball velocity and accuracy is affected less in those situations.  It's kind of difficult to ascertain why that is but, if I had to guess, I'd say that raw arm strength plays a big part of it and there's probably a more developed sense of proprioception in the guy with the stronger and less NFL-QB-conventional athletic background.

 

 

I get it. Seems pretty accurate to me except I would assert it to being a rookie more than arm strength.

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I know many of you are sick of this topic. If that is so then don't read this thread, or listen to the following link.

This is not a knock at RGII either for those who may think I am trying to make Luck seem better. This is nothing against RGIII who has also been impressive. But I'm tired of everyone saying RGIII is the better QB and the stats speak for themselves blah blah blah. I know what I've seen in Luck and anyone who knows QBs sees how impressive and under rated luck has been this year.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8796005

This should settle things.

 

A very good break down of the 2 players and the "situations" they are playing in.

 

I have posted interviews galore stating the exact same thing Tim just said in this interview.    It is not a knock on RG3.   It is simply reality..... but when so many continually have to throw Luck's INT's in the conversation....    well there is a great reason for it.   And a very good reason why RG3 has so few.

 

I know folks don't want to hear about how Washington is running 1 and 2 man routes but ....   the fact is they are.

 

Greg Cosell, Chris Landry, Jaws, all the "folks in the film room" say the same thing.....   Nobody calls them "haters" but post it on a message board to support an argument....   and you are a hater....

 

Oh well ...  so what?    Luck plays for the good guys.

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I could really go for some cake right about now...

 

Cake??? Pie is wayy better!

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I don't get how you can compare the two at all.

 

 

It's like comparing the Rolling Stones to the Beatles. Yes, they were around at the same, no they don't sound anything alike. Yes they both made great music.

 

 

It's not about who's better with these two, but they are nothing alike except the fact they are good so far.

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As long as Andrew Luck is drumming for the Beatles ..    :thmup:

I don't get how you can compare the two at all.

 

 

It's like comparing the Rolling Stones to the Beatles. Yes, they were around at the same, no they don't sound anything alike. Yes they both made great music.

 

 

It's not about who's better with these two, but they are nothing alike except the fact they are good so far.

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There has been some discussion that the NFL will change the rules to protect spread option QB's just like the NFL protects pocket passers, i.e., you better not take more than one step before hitting the pocket passer after the ball is out of his hand. It sounds hard to believe that a QB running the option would be treated as anything but a running back, but given the value of QB's to the league, who knows. If they don't change the rules none of these option guys will hold up; we saw that already with Griffin this year. If they do change the rules I could foresee a massive change in the QB position with lots of option QB's, exactly as we see in college -- but if they don't change the rules will a Griffin or Wilson possibly be able to keep running option offenses and survive -- and if not, would either guy be a star in a pocket pass offense? We simply don't know because neither guy has run a pro offense like Luck ran at Stanford or the one he runs with the Colts.

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If the NFL changes rules to protect "runners" then the game is officially over.

 

It is already nearly destroyed as is.   

 

I cannot wait until this concussion lawsuit is over and the league can go back to HARD HITTING. 

 

One of 2 things will happen...

 

1   players will have to sign medical waivers to play..  totally excluding the NFL from legal action.

 

or  

 

2   The game will go the way of touch football.    and / or   The Government gets involved and outlaws play the way we know it.

 

Honestly...   I think things are heading in the direction of option 2 .

 

Roger GODell will go down as the man that killed the Golden Goose.    Getting rid of KO's really Roger?    That was the play that saved the Colts last Sunday.     And he wants to take it away.    The man is a virus to the NFL.

 

There has been some discussion that the NFL will change the rules to protect spread option QB's just like the NFL protects pocket passers, i.e., you better not take more than one step before hitting the pocket passer after the ball is out of his hand. It sounds hard to believe that a QB running the option would be treated as anything but a running back, but given the value of QB's to the league, who knows. If they don't change the rules none of these option guys will hold up; we saw that already with Griffin this year. If they do change the rules I could foresee a massive change in the QB position with lots of option QB's, exactly as we see in college -- but if they don't change the rules will a Griffin or Wilson possibly be able to keep running option offenses and survive -- and if not, would either guy be a star in a pocket pass offense? We simply don't know because neither guy has run a pro offense like Luck ran at Stanford or the one he runs with the Colts.
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I get it. Seems pretty accurate to me except I would assert it to being a rookie more than arm strength.

 

 

How many throws have you seen RG3 make "under duress" to agree that he is better than Luck. Maybe 2 ? I've seen Luck complete 3rd and 10 passes with defenders hanging from his butt. Now , since I watch every Colt play , it does limit me on how much I see RG3. Do you tape the Wash. games ?

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Same here. Another Colts fan here who thinks that Luck wasn't the best rookie QB and was a little over hyped.

But who cares. We are in the playoffs!

Say RG3 and Wilson weren't drafted this year and Andrew still got the Colts 11 wins and the playoffs. Would you think he was overhyped still?

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It turns out there is a con to having one of the best QBs to ever play the game being followed by one of the most promising rookie QBs to ever play the game. We're still stuck with the never-ending "versus" debates!

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I am happy for Luck & RG3.

 

Start of last year, I wanted RG3 because he was everything you wanted in a QB. Fast, strong arm, accurate.

 

I didn't even think Luck was an option until we got the first pick.

 

There will always be talk of Luck & RG3 for the rest of their careers.

 

Honestly, they both look really good to me and both are the future of the NFL.

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Cake??? Pie is wayy better!

Enh I am more a of a Chocolate Chip Cookies person myself and I think those trump both Cake and Pie I here by move that Andrew Luck become Chocolate Chip cookies in these debates. 

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Andrew Luck hands down! I don't want him winning rookie of the year. Curse of Cam Newton sophomore slump all over it like the Madden curse lol

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If some of you "Colt" fans are saying Luck isn't the best rookie then reevaluate your fandom lol Honestly Andrew Luck if anything has shown us he can lead a team without a running game unlike the other rookies. They also have better defenses statically then the Colts defense. We just start to come along as a defensive unit when Chuck returned. Andrew also hasn't thrown a interception in the past 3 games. His turnovers have reduced. Andrew can only improve as the players around him do as well. I like all of our rookie. Dwayne Allen is my favorite. I have tons to say about him, but that's for another topic.

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If some of you "Colt" fans are saying Luck isn't the best rookie then reevaluate your fandom lol Honestly Andrew Luck if anything has shown us he can lead a team without a running game unlike the other rookies. They also have better defenses statically then the Colts defense. We just start to come along as a defensive unit when Chuck returned. Andrew also hasn't thrown a interception in the past 3 games. His turnovers have reduced. Andrew can only improve as the players around him do as well. I like all of our rookie. Dwayne Allen is my favorite. I have tons to say about him, but that's for another topic.

"sigh" first of all I do happen to think Luck is the best rookie QB this year.  However, one does not have to think Luck is the best rookie QB in order to be a Colts fan.  For example I was never a huge fan of Bob Sanders while others loved him.  Was I some how not a Colts fan because I just didn't happen to think he was as good as others did? 

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"sigh" first of all I do happen to think Luck is the best rookie QB this year. However, one does not have to think Luck is the best rookie QB in order to be a Colts fan. For example I was never a huge fan of Bob

Sanders while others loved him. Was I some how not a Colts fan because I just didn't happen to think he

was as good as others did?

Sorry but didn't you notice a little thing called "lol" that wasn't serious or calling anyone out. I don't like Anthony Castonzo lol

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 1 rookie thinks he is a Comic Book Character and 1 rookie says he has a lot of work to do to get better for his team. I for 1 am very happy that our quarterback doesnt think he can do super human tricks. Or is a Marvel character. Our young Andrew is a very grounded young man, struggling to make his way in the rough life of the NFL, I have watched him grow as a football player in this challenging season, and expect he will excede all expectations, if we get a better pass blocking o line.

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I don't like...nvm I like them all cause they're colts! Till other wise I do t give a crap!

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"His ability to make on-target throws under duress isn't what Griffin's is."

 

 

Really , really full of absurd bias. And yes .. of coarse Hassleback is totally full of crap.

 

By the way,  that Hasselback guy,  Tim,  the guy you think is totally full of crap........      

 

Tim Hasselback thinks Luck is the Rookie of the Year.    Better than RG3 and Wilson.      He says simply,  Luck was asked to do more with less and did.

 

Still think he really full of absurd bias and totally full of crap?!?

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By the way,  that Hasselback guy,  Tim,  the guy you think is totally full of crap........      

 

Tim Hasselback thinks Luck is the Rookie of the Year.    Better than RG3 and Wilson.      He says simply,  Luck was asked to do more with less and did.

 

Still think he really full of absurd bias and totally full of crap?!?

 

 

 

I'm really annoyed by these Redskin fans that need to come over here and try to say we made the wrong choice and they have the best QB. I have against my better judgement not stayed away and decided to aggravate myself by participating in the arguement. If you follow my argument , throughout this nonsense, Ive said that Luck has the Int's as he's had to do far more than RG3 with no O Line and no runnoing game. How do you turn the ball over when your team averages 5+ yards per carry and around 70% of your passes are dinks or short tosses to guys wide open over the middle.

 

In any event , I think you have failed to read enough of this thread to make the post that you have made. I'm on your side ... you need to take a little more time in reading this stuff as you have totally misunderstood what I said.

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"sigh" first of all I do happen to think Luck is the best rookie QB this year.  However, one does not have to think Luck is the best rookie QB in order to be a Colts fan.  For example I was never a huge fan of Bob Sanders while others loved him.  Was I some how not a Colts fan because I just didn't happen to think he was as good as others did? 

 

Ackkkk!  You didn't like Bob Sanders?  Great, now I have to re-evaluate life again :)

 

I'm with you on chocolate chip cookies though.

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Blowing the 1st overall pick????  smh indeed !!!  I would much rather have Luck over RG3.  The Colts made the right pick in my opinion.  To say heads should roll is ludicrous !!!    :scratch:  :facepalm:  -omg-  :HFire:

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There will always be talk of Luck & RG3 for the rest of their careers.

 

Hopefully, for their sakes, the Colts get an O-line and RGIII stops running around so much or their careers might not be as long as we all want.

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Hopefully, for their sakes, the Colts get an O-line and RGIII stops running around so much or their careers might not be as long as we all want.

 

I am sure Grigson realizes that Luck is getting killed each time he is in the pocket. There should, and will be wholesale changes done to the offensive line.

 

Castonzo is the only person on the offensive line that should keep the starting job.

 

I think RG3 should stop running around, but now the coaches have put more option reads in the playbook. They are doing the opposite of what they hoping to avoid. The option read may be effective now, but what happens when a guy like Patrick Willis comes across and lays out RG3? 

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I'm really annoyed by these Redskin fans that need to come over here and try to say we made the wrong choice

Projection at its best.

None of the people who start the Luck and RG3 threads are Redskins fans. That happens so little at Extremeskins, too. The people who start the threads are insecure about RG3 having gotten more attention than Andrew Luck. It is, really, simple as that; unconcious buyer's remorse, if you will, although if I were a GM and selected Luck I would have no remorse at all.

The reason why Redskins fans reply to the threads is because many find the assertions that Colts fans make about Griffin and the Redskins ridiculous. It's a Colts' message board, I got that, but many of us are open to constructive debate, but it's difficult when people revert to the same rehashed "college offense lol" crap and don't actually discuss things further.

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Yessir, best overall #1 pick since........wait for it.........Peyton Manning!  I love Colts football!!

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After a decade or so of Manning v Brady, experts (neutral) are still unable to agree who is the better QB. How can anyone clearly state who is better between Luck or Griffin (or even Wilson) after one regular season? Nuts....

 

Apart from the trolling Colts fans on here who are regularly bashing Luck, both sets of fans are extremely happy with the choice their team made. The End.

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I don't get how you can compare the two at all.

 

 

It's like comparing the Rolling Stones to the Beatles. Yes, they were around at the same, no they don't sound anything alike. Yes they both made great music.

 

 

It's not about who's better with these two, but they are nothing alike except the fact they are good so far.

 

Excellent analogy Bogie!

 

Griffin = Beatles. They lasted about 10 years.

Luck = Stones. 50 years and counting.....

 

Just like it will transpire in 'footballing years'...(just like dog years, only 10 super group years equals 3 QB years).

 

So, come the play-offs, cue: Start it Up......

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Posted · Hidden by Coltssouth, January 5, 2013 - inflamatory

When the Skins get bounced today to can all of you skin trolls please just leave. I mean really you are classless a-holes, coming to another teams fan forums to argue(we are not even in the same division, get over it). Do you really think the Colts would take Griffin over Luck if they could draft again?

 

This is a COLTS fan forums, you are not going to sway ANYONE that believes luck is better, to think any different. 

 

Go, Just please go.

 

We have other respected posters that are fans of other teams here, I can't say that i have seen a respected Skins fan here.

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After a decade or so of Manning v Brady, experts (neutral) are still unable to agree who is the better QB. How can anyone clearly state who is better between Luck or Griffin (or even Wilson) after one regular season? Nuts....

 

Apart from the trolling Colts fans on here who are regularly bashing Luck, both sets of fans are extremely happy with the choice their team made. The End.

 

 

 

I agree. I have said numerous times that it is impossible to say which guy is better at this point. It will take at least a couple of yrs. to come up with that answer. Once Luck gets a solid O-line his numbers will without doubt be much better. Once teams figure out how to properly defense the Skins offense(and I assure you they will) then RG3's numbers will not be so inflated. That is not a knock on RG3, it is just plain and simple, observation. Both QB's could go on to have great careers, but history tells us that with Luck being the more prototypical QB, that he will have more success. Until a QB like RG3 disproves that, then I will always go with the prototypical QB. Maybe RG3 is the guy to change things, but I've heard that about too many other QB's to believe it just yet. Time will tell.

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