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Smonroe

Better O Line - 2010 or 2012?

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Starting in 2010 - CJ, Pollak/DeVan, Jeff, Diem, Link.

 

Starting in 2012 - Castonzo, and any combination of Reitz, Satele/Shipley, McGlynn, Justice

 

IMHO, as bad as this line is, it's a ton better than that 10 line.  Jeff was declining, and the rest were pretty much horrible.  Only Peyton's quick release made them look half decent.  And then there was the run game...

 

Opinions?

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Charlie Johnson?  

 

2012

 

Yeah, sorry.  Charlie Johnson played LT for us.  He now plays G for the Vikes.  He was horrible at LT for them last year.  

 

Diem was literally on his last legs, DeVan was third string for the Titans, Pollak may have played for the Panthers.  

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How much did Link start at T that year?  Wasn't it only a few times, the playoff game being one of them? 

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Run blocking:  2012

 

Pass blocking:  2010

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How much did Link start at T that year?  Wasn't it only a few times, the playoff game being one of them? 

 

You may be right, Diem may have been hanging in there at RT.  The poor guy had no lateral movement by then and not much push.  Link did play a few games at revolving door, er, I mean RT.

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2012 had a waaay better OLine.

I remember thinking how hoorrrible the oLine was 2010 and yet on paper they looked ridiculous because of mannings quick release. No offensive line could protect luck with the amount of time he holds the ball.

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2012 had a waaay better OLine.

I remember thinking how hoorrrible the oLine was 2010 and yet on paper they looked ridiculous because of mannings quick release. No offensive line could protect luck with the amount of time he holds the ball.

it was more the quick routes than his quick release...that why peyton's yards per attempt went down his last few years in indy.

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The 2010 line is the reason Castanzo and a few of these others are here...

 

It's only two years later and none of the guys on the 10 line are either in the league or starting for anyone at their 10 positions.

 

That has to mean something.  If it were any other QB than Peyton in 10, they'd still be in traction.

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it was more the quick routes than his quick release...that why peyton's yards per attempt went down his last few years in indy.

 

Quick routes, release, smart calls. All because of Manning. That line truly was terrible.

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I do think that this years o-line is less than average, but the 2010 line was very bad.  

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I do think that this years o-line is less than average, but the 2010 line was very bad.  

unfortunately so is this one

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unfortunately so is this one

 

Yeah, other than Costanzo the talent on this o-line is not good.  However, the 2010 line did not even have that.

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unfortunately so is this one

 

True.  Except for the end of the last game.  I started a thread on the 9:46 last drive of the game.  There was one play in that drive where the line was beat.  They won every other play, even though the Texans knew what we were going to do.

 

Obviously, that doesn't make them good.  But they have shown that when it counts they can be good enough.

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Isn't that like saying what is better, Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell?  jk   I think as a unit it is hard to say which is better.  I will say I think Castonzo is better that anyone of 2012 or 2010 line.  I think Reitz is probably the next best.  But the other three this year are bad.  I guess I would pick 2012.  But they are horrid.

 

You know what is a scary thought.  Add 2-3 more lineman through free agent/draft and lets see what Vick Ballard can do.  I think he is a 1200 rusher.

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I don't think there was very much good about either of those lines, to be honest. It's hard to judge, because Manning got rid of the ball so quickly which reduced the amount of sacks he took, but that's not a gauge of how well the line played. There's also the difference in offensive scheme, both in the passing game and the run blocking scheme. Totally different in both phases. I think I'd slightly favor the 2010 line, mostly because of experience and continuity; we had a ton of injuries on the line this season, and hardly started the same five guys from week to week. But that's really not saying much.

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Gonna have to go with 2012. Both are subpar but this year gets the edge. Really hope we add 2 good OL during the offseason. This offense could be VERY GOOD

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Was unable to respond to your post earlier Smonroe but it was comical how you phrased your question. You almost made it sound like the 2010 team came out of the tunnel with canes and on crutches. Stating that CJ was horrible is nonsense. He was signed after the season for $10.5M with a $3M signing bonus. I know, Mn. brass are stupid and you know way more then they do.

For the record, I looked up two sources that rank Off. lines at year end. Football outsiders ranked the 2010 line 22nd in rushing and #1 in passing. The 2012 team was ranked #26 in rushing and #18 in passing. Advanced NFL Stats ranked the 2010 OL #5 overall as opposed to the 2012 OL # 18 overall.

Neither  line was anything to be proud of but with Saturday,Deim and CJ I'd take the 2010 line any day. 

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Run blocking:  2012

 

Pass blocking:  2010

 

 

I don't think there was very much good about either of those lines, to be honest. It's hard to judge, because Manning got rid of the ball so quickly which reduced the amount of sacks he took, but that's not a gauge of how well the line played. There's also the difference in offensive scheme, both in the passing game and the run blocking scheme. Totally different in both phases. I think I'd slightly favor the 2010 line, mostly because of experience and continuity; we had a ton of injuries on the line this season, and hardly started the same five guys from week to week. But that's really not saying much.

 

 

 

I agree with both these answers. For anyone to say that the 2012 line is easily better than the 2010 line is completely over-simplifying their thinking. Both lines were/are awful but to say one is better than the other......there is a lot more that needs to be taken into account to come up with a solid answer.

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Run blocking:  2012

 

Pass blocking:  2010

This.

Though I still frequently have nightmares about Quin Garay's sack of Manning where he picked up link and drove him into Peyton.

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I agree with both these answers. For anyone to say that the 2012 line is easily better than the 2010 line is completely over-simplifying their thinking. Both lines were/are awful but to say one is better than the other......there is a lot more that needs to be taken into account to come up with a solid answer.

Agree, it's a lot more complicated. But if you just go man to man comparison, from top to bottom, except for Jeff, who on the 10 line is better than on the 12?

Link/Link and Reitz/Reitz may not even be a wash if you factor in experience or subtract for injury.

Again, I'm no way saying this line is good. But I will stand by my statement that they're better than 10.

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2012. There was no stability for the 2012 line Castonzo being the only real constant with massive substitutions at every other line position all year long. Since the line has to function as a unit I think we cut them a little slack on some of the performance in some games. The way we ran the ball at the end of some of our games (1st game against Tenn in OT, 2nd game against Jags, KC, 2nd Houston game) and never had to expose our defense 1 more time, We haven't done that since the 2006 playoffs. That was an accomplishment since all the linemen are journeymen except Castonzo.

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Starting in 2010 - CJ, Pollak/DeVan, Jeff, Diem, Link.

 

Starting in 2012 - Castonzo, and any combination of Reitz, Satele/Shipley, McGlynn, Justice

 

IMHO, as bad as this line is, it's a ton better than that 10 line.  Jeff was declining, and the rest were pretty much horrible.  Only Peyton's quick release made them look half decent.  And then there was the run game...

 

Opinions?

I know your not a fan of facts being brought to discussions, but sometimes you just have to sprinkle in a little truth

starting 2010 CJ-15 games  Link-1 - Pollack-13 gms  Richards-3 Jeff-16 gms  DeVan-13 gms  Linlk-3  Diem-16 gms

 

starting 2012-Castanzo-16-st-Reitz-8-sts-Olsen-5-st-Link-2-stHills-1-st-Satele-11-st- Shipley-5-st-Mcglynn-15-st-Olsen-1-st-Justice12-st-Link-4-st

Castanzo is the only player to start and finish all 16 gms.Reitz started 8 games, but went out 2 more and had to be replaced by Link. There has been no stability at all at left guard, four different guys have started, Satele has started 11 gms, but has been replaced by Mcglynn in 1 gm and Shipley in 2 others, again no stability at the position and I consider Shipley the best option by far and he's played in less than half the games. Mcglynn has started the second most games and he is by far our worst starting lineman. Justice has started 12 gms and went out in 2 more games and was replaced by link in 2 more and Link started 4 games. Link did not start a single regular season game in 2010 (started playoff game) you have him listed as the starter in 2010 I'll say it again Diem started all 16 games. So for your staters in 2010 and 2012

2010- CJ ST-15-GMS-Pollack-13 gms- Saturday-16 gms-DeVan-13 gms-Diem-16 gms

2012-Castanzo st-16 gms-Reitz-8-gms(left-2)-Satele-11-gms-Mcglynn-15-gms-Justice-12-gms(left-2)

The 2010 O-line had much more stability, with Saturday still playing at a decent level and a pro bowl,not like this years pro bowl season. Diem also started all 16 games and even though not as good as previous years, he didn't have to use a cane or walker to get on the field,and the fact that Link played the biggest part of 6 gms in 2012, makes diems 16 starts, much better than the production that we have had from Justice 10 complete games and for the most part 6 gms by Link. your false statement of link being the starter in 2010 would be your biggest reason that 2010 was so bad, but he didn.t start a single game in 2010 regular season and we've seen how it works out in 2012 with him at Tackle, even though I think he has done a decent job at guard. I also think Justice has been decent at times too.Mcgylnn and Justice both were backups when we brought them here, the same thing Pollack and Devan are now and I can't believe i am saying this, but I would take Pollack and DeVan over Olsen and Mcglynn now, and definetly at the level they played in 2010, not nearly as bad(even though bad) as Olsen and mcglynn. Just wanted to bring in a few facts to the discussion.

 

 

It's only two years later and none of the guys on the 10 line are either in the league or starting for anyone at their 10 positions.

 

That has to mean something.  If it were any other QB than Peyton in 10, they'd still be in traction.

Once again I hate to screw up a discussion with facts, but every player except Diem, is still in the NFL. Diem ,retred but played better at guard,even last year than any guard we have had this season, would like to have him at guard this season.  CJ signed a sweet little contract with the Vikings and Polian really wanted to resign him, but Johnson didn't wait around on the Colts, he went ahead and signed with the Vikings. He was a pretty good player for the Colts, not nearly as bad as you make him out to be. He was very versatile and could play 4 of the 5 O-line positions at a decent level.Pollack and DeVan are still in the league as back-ups just as Mcglynn and Justice were when we signed them, and I would take the 2010 Pollack and DeVan over Olsen and Mcglynn any day. Like I said earlier, just wanted to sprinkle in a little truth to false, or misleading statements.

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This. Though I still frequently have nightmares about Quin Garay's sack of Manning where he picked up link and drove him into Peyton.

 

That was because Linkenbach, as a rookie, was not strong enough. Mike Pollak, who had played center all along in college did not have arms long enough to handle stunts supposedly and they tried a raw Linkenbach at right guard for a few games, only to get abused.

 

Very much like putting Painter in as QB in the resting-the-starters-Jets game, both put in situations where they were set up to fail more than succeed. :)

 

Saturday was not declining badly then, IMO. He had always had issues handling behemoth NTs in a 3-4 and that part got worse around that time frame. To me, the guards were better in 2010 with the exception of a few games when we tinkered too much with the line up with a raw Linkenbach but the tackle situation is better now in 2012. Center is somewhat of a push to me.

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I know your not a fan of facts being brought to discussions, but sometimes you just have to sprinkle in a little truth

starting 2010 CJ-15 games  Link-1 - Pollack-13 gms  Richards-3 Jeff-16 gms  DeVan-13 gms  Linlk-3  Diem-16 gms

 

starting 2012-Castanzo-16-st-Reitz-8-sts-Olsen-5-st-Link-2-stHills-1-st-Satele-11-st- Shipley-5-st-Mcglynn-15-st-Olsen-1-st-Justice12-st-Link-4-st

Castanzo is the only player to start and finish all 16 gms.Reitz started 8 games, but went out 2 more and had to be replaced by Link. There has been no stability at all at left guard, four different guys have started, Satele has started 11 gms, but has been replaced by Mcglynn in 1 gm and Shipley in 2 others, again no stability at the position and I consider Shipley the best option by far and he's played in less than half the games. Mcglynn has started the second most games and he is by far our worst starting lineman. Justice has started 12 gms and went out in 2 more games and was replaced by link in 2 more and Link started 4 games. Link did not start a single regular season game in 2010 (started playoff game) you have him listed as the starter in 2010 I'll say it again Diem started all 16 games. So for your staters in 2010 and 2012

2010- CJ ST-15-GMS-Pollack-13 gms- Saturday-16 gms-DeVan-13 gms-Diem-16 gms

2012-Castanzo st-16 gms-Reitz-8-gms(left-2)-Satele-11-gms-Mcglynn-15-gms-Justice-12-gms(left-2)

The 2010 O-line had much more stability, with Saturday still playing at a decent level and a pro bowl,not like this years pro bowl season. Diem also started all 16 games and even though not as good as previous years, he didn't have to use a cane or walker to get on the field,and the fact that Link played the biggest part of 6 gms in 2012, makes diems 16 starts, much better than the production that we have had from Justice 10 complete games and for the most part 6 gms by Link. your false statement of link being the starter in 2010 would be your biggest reason that 2010 was so bad, but he didn.t start a single game in 2010 regular season and we've seen how it works out in 2012 with him at Tackle, even though I think he has done a decent job at guard. I also think Justice has been decent at times too.Mcgylnn and Justice both were backups when we brought them here, the same thing Pollack and Devan are now and I can't believe i am saying this, but I would take Pollack and DeVan over Olsen and Mcglynn now, and definetly at the level they played in 2010, not nearly as bad(even though bad) as Olsen and mcglynn. Just wanted to bring in a few facts to the discussion.

 

 

Once again I hate to screw up a discussion with facts, but every player except Diem, is still in the NFL. Diem ,retred but played better at guard,even last year than any guard we have had this season, would like to have him at guard this season.  CJ signed a sweet little contract with the Vikings and Polian really wanted to resign him, but Johnson didn't wait around on the Colts, he went ahead and signed with the Vikings. He was a pretty good player for the Colts, not nearly as bad as you make him out to be. He was very versatile and could play 4 of the 5 O-line positions at a decent level.Pollack and DeVan are still in the league as back-ups just as Mcglynn and Justice were when we signed them, and I would take the 2010 Pollack and DeVan over Olsen and Mcglynn any day. Like I said earlier, just wanted to sprinkle in a little truth to false, or misleading statements.

Not trying to sound snotty or disrespectful, but there is a difference between facts and opinions. We have a difference of opinion on the first part of your post. I accept yours, but don't agree. Simply put, Castonzo and four 12 starters are better than Jeff and four 10 starters IMHO.

Please explain why I'm not stating a fact in the second post you quoted. CJ is not starting at T, Devan and Pollak are backups (actually, I'm not sure Pollak is till on a team), Jeff isn't starting and Diem retired. How is that not a fact or misleading?

Again, I'm not saying the 12 line is great, but I'll stick to my opinion that its better than 10.

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Not trying to sound snotty or disrespectful, but there is a difference between facts and opinions. We have a difference of opinion on the first part of your post. I accept yours, but don't agree. Simply put, Castonzo and four 12 starters are better than Jeff and four 10 starters IMHO.

Please explain why I'm not stating a fact in the second post you quoted. CJ is not starting at T, Devan and Pollak are backups (actually, I'm not sure Pollak is till on a team), Jeff isn't starting and Diem retired. How is that not a fact or misleading?

Again, I'm not saying the 12 line is great, but I'll stick to my opinion that its better than 10.

We can all have our opinion but what I reacted to was you descriptions of the 2010 OL that according to two source I looked up ranked much higher overall than the 2012 squad. Your used of words such as horrible, pathetic, shadows of former self, last leg,etc to describe the 2010 is what I took exception to. Say that the 2012 OL was "tons better than the 2010 OL is not correct in my opinion and the opinion of so call experts that get paid to evaluate these thing. I agree that both lines were bad. I happen to think that 2012 was worse than 2010, not by "tons" but by a fair margin. You think 2010 was worse so we disagree.

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I'll give the same answer as I did in the other thread. What smells worse poop or crap ?  Here's my thoughts on a few of the issues brought up. Saturday would be expected to drop off pretty good from 2010 to 2012. Two years is big when you hit your late 30's.

 

If the 2012 line was healthy all year , it may have been a better line. IMO , if you assessed it by the players that took the field game by game in 2012 , this line is probably worse.

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Starter wise, 2012 team is far worse, Backup wise 2010 was worse (Having A.Q Shipley helps give 2012 the backup edge)

 

 

Look at who we had starting originally at the beginning of this year

 

LT-Castonzo-Inarguably the best o lineman starting

LG-Seth Olsen

C-Satele

RG-Mcglynn

RT-Justice

 

2010 we had

 

LT-Charlie Johnson(he does not stick out good or bad in my mind)

LG-Linkenbach

Center-Saturday

RG-Mike Pollak

RT-Ryan Diem- better at RT (then he was at RG)

 

Not alot better but I give the edge to 2010 being the better O Line

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