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Dungy: Be careful what you wish for....


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#41 GoColts8818

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:43 PM

To the bolded, I'm not sure why you feel it has to be all or nothing. Dungy had his faults, Manning his, and both men needed each other. Being critical of one doesn't have to be because you're trying to prop the other one up.

 

Also, a side note on Meeks, it was bitter sweet that the defense turned itself around in the playoffs in 2006, because that likely saved his job. He was dead weight on our coaching staff, and our units constantly underperformed on his watch. To his credit, we had a good year in 2007, defensively, but that was also Bob Sanders best year, and when Freeney and Mathis got hurt, the defense went down the drain. Not that that's Meeks' fault, but he wasn't a good coach. 

 

And that actually highlights what I think was Dungy's biggest drawback, is that he was loyal to a fault. I mentioned in another thread how he dragged Christensen along with him at every turn, despite underwhelming results. Meeks and Russ Purnell should have been dismissed years before Caldwell took over, and it's telling that those are the very first moves Caldwell made once he became the head man. Dungy also played his cards to get Caldwell the head job, essentially holding Irsay and Polian hostage during the offseason after 2007, until they agreed to promise the job to Caldwell. Irsay and Polian should have had the sense NOT to agree to this, as it wound up being one of the most ill-advised decisions of their partnership, and likely cost Polian his job. But this was Dungy's doing.

 

I am not questioning Dungy's motives or his character; as I said, I think he is a very good person, and I respect him for everything he did. But he had his faults as a coach and as the main decision maker for a football team, probably because the win/loss record of the football team wasn't as important to him as his relationships with his people. And maybe that's not a fault, depending on how you look at it, but it's one of the reasons I say  he held the team back.

 

He also helped key players on this team develop into better players and people, including Manning. He was instrumental in helping us become one of the most disciplined teams in the league, on and off the field. Some might have found his cool demeanor lacking, but he took great pride in showing that you can win at the highest level without being a drill sergeant, and he said as much on the podium after the Super Bowl win. He deserves many, many accolades.

 

But he's not above reproach. And just because someone mentions some of his shortcomings doesn't mean that they are only interested in shielding Manning from criticism. 

I don't think it has to be all or nothing but when someone starts the post with Dungy won a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning and a returning Bob Sanders that is an attempt to belittle Dungy on that Super Bowl run.  It's not exactly like we road Peyton Manning's back to the Super Bowl ring.  Don't get me wrong we don't win that Super Bowl without Peyton Manning but it's not like he threw 20 TDs and no INTs as we road only him to the Super Bowl.  Like I said in my post I think the key to us winning that Super Bowl was that we didn't have to ride Manning to the ring.  He didn't have to be perfect he just needed to be good.  So I am all for giving others credit.  I am just tired of people who feel the need to try to give all the credit to Manning and Sanders for that ring.  No we don't win it without them but we don't win it without the o-line, Addai & Rhodes, Jackson & Hayden, Booger, AV, Marvin Harrison, or Tony Dungy either just to name a few. 

 

I am not saying Ron Meeks was the best coach in the world or even that great.  However, had we fired him after the Jags game in 2006 like just about everyone not named Tony Dungy wanted there is in all likely hood no Super Bowl run that year.  Dungy had the vision to just stay the course and more importantly knew the adjustments to make so the defense could get better.  People love to talk about things Dungy got wrong and yes he did get things wrong but he deserves credit for what he got right too and not panicking and firing Ron Meeks in the middle of the season was one of the things he got right. 

 

You can say dragging Christensen around is a bad thing but even Pagano kept him.  So maybe he was a slightly better coach than you are giving him credit for. 

 

Again, I didn't say Dungy was perfect I didn't even say he was the best coach of his generation.  He wasn't.  To this point though he is easily the best coach in Indianapolis Colts history and yet people try to down play everything he did and treat him like he was Jim Caldwell.  Tony Dungy will be a Hall of Fame Coach and to this point he is the only coach in Indianapolis Colts history who can say that.  So rather than trying to always down play Dungy or talk about how he was overrated how about giving some credit where credit is due.  Saying he was good is not saying he didn't have his faults.  The man was a darn good coach and we were lucky to have him as our coach.  Make no mistake about it he was the missing peace for us to become a NFL power house because before he came in the team was regressing even with Peyton Manning.  We don't win a Super Bowl without Peyton Manning or Bill Polian and only Tony Dungy but we don't win a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning and Bill Polian and no Tony Dungy either. 

 

Also I have news for you if you think it was only Tony Dungy who wanted Jim Caldwell to be the Colts next coach you are flat out wrong.  There is no way that happens without Irsay and Polian agreeing to it and what exactly about Bill Polian leads you to think his ego would cave to the demands of someone even like Dungy?  Caldwell got the title he did because at the time he was being interviewed by the Falcons for their Head Coaching job so the Colts do what all teams do with a coach like that they want to keep.  They gave him a promotion and a pay raise.  That's how Chris Polian got promoted too because that was the Falcons first plan hire Chris Polian as their GM and bring Caldwell in as the Head Coach.  The Colts took steps to keep their guys and the Falcons went in another direction. 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

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#42 Gavin

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:50 PM

On one hand I can see why we would be the perceived team that the Ravens would want to play against on the other hand if it backfires it could have serious consequences going forward for Harbaugh



#43 GoColts8818

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:53 PM

Obviously, I struck a nerve here. Sorry. Calmness in the locker room & on sidelines plays a role, but it's a little over the top to claim that Tony Dungy alone stopped the bleeding. I just can't make that grand leap. Your response conveys the impression that coaches like Gruden & Cowher can't exercise patience and restraint either. I more inclined to give Dungy more credit during the AFC Championship Game itself reminding the offense that "this is our time" & to be patient & maintain focus. People give Dungy way too much credit. It boils to player execution on the field pure & simple. Yes, Tony can kept players calm, but they not Tony must get 1st downs and touchdowns. 

I don't think Dungy alone stopped the bleeding the Super Bowl run.  It was a tone of things.  Booger finally getting comfortable in the defense.  Sanders return.  The emergence of Hayden and Jackson.  The o-line and running game taking over the Colts just flat out owning the TOP battles.  The Colts getting some breaks they just hadn't gotten in previous years.  Then maybe the biggest thing a team that played like a team who knew it's season didn't really start till the playoffs did.  That team was just hungry like no other Colts team I have seen.  They knew they could have gone 16-0 that year going into the playoffs but there was still going to be yeah but questions going into the playoffs.  I think that last part is why we won the Super Bowl that year that team was just not going to be stopped.  However, I just object to the idea that some seem to have that anyone could have coached that team.  I think Dungy was a big part of it.

 

 Honestly a lot of time here if you bring up the name Tony Dungy the first thing you hear from someone is someone trying to belittle his success by saying well he had Peyton Manning.  That bugs me.  Jim Mora had Peyton Manning too and still got fired.  Peyton Manning alone is not the only reason we won.  Don't get me wrong he was a huge peace of it but having one of the best coaches in the NFL and one of the best if not the best GM in football at the time along with a tone of other good players played a huge roll too.  I get the idea that some (and I am not just saying you here because this has gone on for years) think giving credit to someone else during the Peyton Manning era is some how taking something away from Peyton.  It's not.  It's just admitting that like most great teams we had several great peaces. 

 

Also back to the having Peyton thing.  Dungy didn't have Peyton there or a franchise QB at all and still turned one of the biggest jokes in pro Sports into a year in and year out Super Bowl Contender.  I think Dungy was something very rare in the modern NFL he didn't have to have a great QB to win.  Then when he got one his teams won at a level the NFL had never seen before even if they didn't have the post season success people would have liked. 

 

So all I am really trying to do is just put up for Dungy because I hate when people try to be little his success.  He wasn't perfect but he was a great coach. 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#44 southwest1

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:02 AM

As I mentioned previously, Tony Dungy, leads by quiet example while other HC's are more vocal & authoritative. To each their own I guess. Whatever wins division titles & gets the job done. Hey, Rex Ryan is living proof that in your face boasts don't always work & Norv Turner is proof that a calm public persona doesn't always flow smoothly either. Sometimes, a HC & a team finds lightning in a bottle & wins quickly AKA Barry Switzer in Dallas & then the wheels fall off. 

 

I do find it odd though that whenever Tony Dungy gets mentioned he typically get mentioned for his prison rehabilitation work/religious beliefs and then later as his experience as an HC in the National Football League. Maybe Tony likes it that way. He clearly seems to have no desire to coach again. But, in his defense, after being the 1st black coach to win a SB there really is no way to top that landmark feat either I suppose. Always leave on top baby! A smart PR move IMO.  :thmup:


"Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack." Sun Tzu

#45 GoColts8818

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:07 AM

As I mentioned previously, Tony Dungy, leads by quiet example while other HC's are more vocal & authoritative. To each their own I guess. Whatever wins division titles & gets the job done. Hey, Rex Ryan is living proof that in your face boasts don't always work & Norv Turner is proof that a calm public persona doesn't always flow smoothly either. Sometimes, a HC & a team finds lightning in a bottle & wins quickly AKA Barry Switzer in Dallas & then the wheels fall off. 

Heck Dungy's protege Jim Caldwell is proof being calm doesn't always work and his other protege Herm Edwards is proof being fiery doesn't always work.  At the end of the day rather you are a good coach or not doesn't come down to are you calm or in people's faces.  It comes down to do you have "it".  Dungy had "it" and I think I see the same "it" in Pagano that I saw in Dungy even though they carry themselves differently on the sidelines.  What I think "it" is the ability to get the best out of your players even when things aren't perfect and there are many ways to do that. 

I do find it odd though that whenever Tony Dungy gets mentioned he typically get mentioned for his prison rehabilitation work/religious beliefs and then later as his experience as an HC in the National Football League. Maybe Tony likes it that way. He clearly seems to have no desire to coach again. But, in his defense, after being the 1st black coach to win a SB there really is no way to top that landmark feat either I suppose. Always leave on top baby! A smart PR move IMO.  :thmup:

Well he left after a playoff loss to the Chargers but if you ever get a chance to read Dungy's first book (great read by the way) it's clear Dungy would much rather you think of him as a good person and a great father than he would have you think of him as a good football coach. 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#46 Superman

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:35 AM

I don't think it has to be all or nothing but when someone starts the post with Dungy won a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning and a returning Bob Sanders that is an attempt to belittle Dungy on that Super Bowl run.  It's not exactly like we road Peyton Manning's back to the Super Bowl ring.  Don't get me wrong we don't win that Super Bowl without Peyton Manning but it's not like he threw 20 TDs and no INTs as we road only him to the Super Bowl.  Like I said in my post I think the key to us winning that Super Bowl was that we didn't have to ride Manning to the ring.  He didn't have to be perfect he just needed to be good.  So I am all for giving others credit.  I am just tired of people who feel the need to try to give all the credit to Manning and Sanders for that ring.  No we don't win it without them but we don't win it without the o-line, Addai & Rhodes, Jackson & Hayden, Booger, AV, Marvin Harrison, or Tony Dungy either just to name a few. 

 

I am not saying Ron Meeks was the best coach in the world or even that great.  However, had we fired him after the Jags game in 2006 like just about everyone not named Tony Dungy wanted there is in all likely hood no Super Bowl run that year.  Dungy had the vision to just stay the course and more importantly knew the adjustments to make so the defense could get better.  People love to talk about things Dungy got wrong and yes he did get things wrong but he deserves credit for what he got right too and not panicking and firing Ron Meeks in the middle of the season was one of the things he got right. 

 

You can say dragging Christensen around is a bad thing but even Pagano kept him.  So maybe he was a slightly better coach than you are giving him credit for. 

 

Again, I didn't say Dungy was perfect I didn't even say he was the best coach of his generation.  He wasn't.  To this point though he is easily the best coach in Indianapolis Colts history and yet people try to down play everything he did and treat him like he was Jim Caldwell.  Tony Dungy will be a Hall of Fame Coach and to this point he is the only coach in Indianapolis Colts history who can say that.  So rather than trying to always down play Dungy or talk about how he was overrated how about giving some credit where credit is due.  Saying he was good is not saying he didn't have his faults.  The man was a darn good coach and we were lucky to have him as our coach.  Make no mistake about it he was the missing peace for us to become a NFL power house because before he came in the team was regressing even with Peyton Manning.  We don't win a Super Bowl without Peyton Manning or Bill Polian and only Tony Dungy but we don't win a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning and Bill Polian and no Tony Dungy either. 

 

Also I have news for you if you think it was only Tony Dungy who wanted Jim Caldwell to be the Colts next coach you are flat out wrong.  There is no way that happens without Irsay and Polian agreeing to it and what exactly about Bill Polian leads you to think his ego would cave to the demands of someone even like Dungy?  Caldwell got the title he did because at the time he was being interviewed by the Falcons for their Head Coaching job so the Colts do what all teams do with a coach like that they want to keep.  They gave him a promotion and a pay raise.  That's how Chris Polian got promoted too because that was the Falcons first plan hire Chris Polian as their GM and bring Caldwell in as the Head Coach.  The Colts took steps to keep their guys and the Falcons went in another direction. 

 

I think you're being a bit sensational.

 

No one said Dungy isn't good, no one made him out to be Jim Caldwell, no one is downplaying him. He gets plenty of credit around here. Some don't hold him in as high regard as you seem to, but what does that have to do with how they feel about Manning? It's like you're on a crusade to prove that Dungy was a good coach, and pretty much everyone agrees that he was a good coach. We probably don't take the steps forward that we did with Dungy. That includes Manning's evolving into a four time MVP.

 

(He also held us back in certain ways. Remember the 2005 playoff game against the Steelers, end of the third quarter? We wound up with 4th and 2, and Dungy sends the punt team on. Manning waved them off, Dungy goes "it's on YOU," and Manning connects with Stokley for a first down? We went on to score our first touchdown on that drive, and got back in the game. That's always stood out to me for several reasons, but mostly because of what happened the previous two years against the Patriots. In 2004, in Foxborough, we got dominated on time of possession, and we punted or kicked a field goal on 4th and short six different times, some of those being a little more conservative than most would like. For instance, the third quarter, we finally have a little bit of a drive going, it's 6-3 Pats, and we have 4th and 1 on the NE49, the Pats go 88 yards for a touchdown and eat up 8 minutes of clock. Or the year before, the famous 1 yard line tackle by Willie McGinest on Edge? The previous drive, we had 4th and 10 from the NE11, and chose to kick a field goal with three minutes left, even though we were still down four points. We should have gone for the touchdown, taken the chance that we could get a stop (which we did, by the way) knowing that we'd be pinning them deep in their own territory, considering the fact that we still needed a touchdown to win. That game wound up meaning the difference between a home AFCCG and a road AFCCG, and the rest is history. By the way, plenty of blame Manning's way for that AFCCG in Foxborough, in case you're wondering. All of this to say that Dungy erred on the side of caution a bit too much for my liking, especially with such a good quarterback and offense.)

 

I DON'T agree on Meeks; he SHOULD have been fired after 2006, and only because of a major resurgence in the playoffs was his job spared. Those calling for his removal were right, and the rest of his time here (and his time in other places around the league) support that. Just because Dungy didn't throw him out in the cold halfway through the season doesn't mean that he had some special foresight that things would be okay. Meeks didn't earn another year as the coordinator; he was pardoned by his friend. And it hurt the team.

 

I'm not saying anything one way or the other about Christensen; I'm just saying that the way Dungy has taken up for him at every turn is another example of how Dungy looks out for his people, whether that's best from a football standpoint or not. But the results are clear; Christensen has never had good results as a coordinator. Yes, Pagano kept him, but as a position coach. It's not nearly the same.

 

On the Caldwell promotion, of course Polian and Irsay agreed to it. But this was put in motion by Dungy. All that about the Falcons and Caldwell getting interest and all is fine and dandy, and same for Chris, but it's very, very rare for any team to name a successor to their head coach position before the current coach leaves. Especially in the modern NFL. I can only remember us doing it and the Seahawks doing it with Jim Mora, Jr., and neither instance worked out very well. It's the wrong way to hire your head coach, plain and simple. The Steelers knew Cowher was leaving, but rather than designating his replacement in advance, in the name of continuity, they interviewed candidates and made a decision without prejudice. That decision wound up being counter to the direction they were expected to go in. I could go on and on. You don't allow your current head coach, who has been pondering retirement for two years already, to name his replacement, just because you want him to stay another year.

 

And that's just what happened. Irsay went along with it because he wanted Dungy to stay. Polian went along with it because a) Irsay said so, b) it provided a semblance of "continuity," and c) because Caldwell could be controlled. It's as simple as that, and that's just how it played out for the next three years. And it proved to be a massive mistake. Whether Irsay and Polian held Caldwell in high regard or not -- obviously they did -- he's not the kind of guy that you stamp as "irreplaceable," and go to moving heaven and earth to keep around. There's nothing in his history as a coach, on any level, in any position, to suggest that he was worth that kind of designation. The motivation behind promoting Caldwell the way they did was primarily to keep Dungy around for at least another year.

 

In hindsight, we probably would have been better off letting Dungy retire in 2008. Again, I have tremendous respect for Dungy. But look at the coaching candidates available that year. Or even in 2009. We would have been better off conducting an exhaustive search for a coach in 2008 than promoting Caldwell the way we did. No reason he couldn't have been a candidate at that point in time, but with guys like John Harbaugh and Mike Smith on the market, odds are we would have considered going in a different direction. Maybe not, but at least we would have been more diligent about making sure we had the best guy available for the job. 

 

Getting back to the point, Dungy isn't above reproach. Just because someone points out what they perceive to be flaws doesn't mean they're afraid of sticking blame on Manning. Nor does it mean they don't think Dungy was a good coach who did good things for the team. I think we should be able to make an honest appraisal of even people we hold in high regard, without being accused of having an ulterior motive.


LET'S HUNT

#47 GoColts8818

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:10 AM

I think you're being a bit sensational.

 

No one said Dungy isn't good, no one made him out to be Jim Caldwell, no one is downplaying him. He gets plenty of credit around here. Some don't hold him in as high regard as you seem to, but what does that have to do with how they feel about Manning? It's like you're on a crusade to prove that Dungy was a good coach, and pretty much everyone agrees that he was a good coach. We probably don't take the steps forward that we did with Dungy. That includes Manning's evolving into a four time MVP.

Nor did I ever say he was perfect or without fault but that didn't stop you from acting like I said it...

 

Also when you things like Dungy is overrated yes that is down playing him which you and other poster did say. 

 

The whole Manning thing came from Southwest saying Dungy won a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning and the return of Bob Sanders I already explained that.  I also explained in a latter post to Southwest he isn't the first person to try to imply that Dungy just got lucky to be the head coach of this team when they won a Super Bowl and said to him that has gone on for years around here which it has.  My point to him was that it wasn't just those two who carried us to a ring and anyone could have coached the team.  It took a lot of people, including, Manning, Sanders, Dungy, and several others to win that ring. 

(He also held us back in certain ways. Remember the 2005 playoff game against the Steelers, end of the third quarter? We wound up with 4th and 2, and Dungy sends the punt team on. Manning waved them off, Dungy goes "it's on YOU," and Manning connects with Stokley for a first down? We went on to score our first touchdown on that drive, and got back in the game. That's always stood out to me for several reasons, but mostly because of what happened the previous two years against the Patriots. In 2004, in Foxborough, we got dominated on time of possession, and we punted or kicked a field goal on 4th and short six different times, some of those being a little more conservative than most would like. For instance, the third quarter, we finally have a little bit of a drive going, it's 6-3 Pats, and we have 4th and 1 on the NE49, the Pats go 88 yards for a touchdown and eat up 8 minutes of clock. Or the year before, the famous 1 yard line tackle by Willie McGinest on Edge? The previous drive, we had 4th and 10 from the NE11, and chose to kick a field goal with three minutes left, even though we were still down four points. We should have gone for the touchdown, taken the chance that we could get a stop (which we did, by the way) knowing that we'd be pinning them deep in their own territory, considering the fact that we still needed a touchdown to win. That game wound up meaning the difference between a home AFCCG and a road AFCCG, and the rest is history. By the way, plenty of blame Manning's way for that AFCCG in Foxborough, in case you're wondering. All of this to say that Dungy erred on the side of caution a bit too much for my liking, especially with such a good quarterback and offense.)

Yeah he wanted to punt and it was the wrong call.  You know what I also remember about that game?  Peyton Manning and the offense looking like Curtis Painter and the offense last year till the fourth quarter.  That wasn't all on the Head Coach.  That's what I mean by the players share in some of the blame for the playoff loses too.  Yet people seem to want to put all the blame on Dungy and not mention the players.  My theory on that is that people do that because they tend to not like to blame Manning for things around here. 

 

You know why he kicked in a lot of those spots?  Because to that point in the game the offense had not been playing very well and he saw a chance to get points.  Heck in some of those games the offense had been playing well but Dungy knew the value of points when you could get them.  The Pats game here in 2003 played out exactly like Dungy thought it would.  Get points there get a stop and go score to win the game with no time left. They did everything except score which came down to the players not exciting on the field not the coaches.  There were several games under Dungy where they did something similar and it worked out and the Colts ended up winning the game.  Dungy didn't like to go for it till they were left with no other option because he knew picking up fourth downs in the NFL is hard and he also knew in all likely hood they were going to need a defensive stop and the odds of them getting one after a fourth down stuff by the other team was much lower than getting one after you scored some point and had the crowd into it.  Dungy played the percentages.  Yes he was a little too rigged on them at times like I have said he wasn't perfect but rather than trying to cherry pick some examples to make him look worse than he was I choose to look at the whole body of work that says Dungy was a darn good coach. 

I DON'T agree on Meeks; he SHOULD have been fired after 2006, and only because of a major resurgence in the playoffs was his job spared. Those calling for his removal were right, and the rest of his time here (and his time in other places around the league) support that. Just because Dungy didn't throw him out in the cold halfway through the season doesn't mean that he had some special foresight that things would be okay. Meeks didn't earn another year as the coordinator; he was pardoned by his friend. And it hurt the team.

If we fire the DC after the Jags game in 2006 like most people wanted the team to do there is no Super Bowl run with an interim DC that year.  Dungy saw that for exactly what it was it wasn't that the wrong plays were being called it was the players on the field not making them.  That's why I say you have to give Dungy credit for not caving to the pressure to fire Meeks and ridding it out and more importantly you have to give credit to Dungy and his coaches for coaching those players up to play better once the playoffs hit.  Dungy pushed the right buttons there in season. 

I'm not saying anything one way or the other about Christensen; I'm just saying that the way Dungy has taken up for him at every turn is another example of how Dungy looks out for his people, whether that's best from a football standpoint or not. But the results are clear; Christensen has never had good results as a coordinator. Yes, Pagano kept him, but as a position coach. It's not nearly the same.

You said it yourself hat he dragged Christensen around with him.  Maybe there is a reason for that and it's not just because Dungy was loyal to him maybe because Dungy knew he was a good coach.  Also Dungy didn't make Christensen the OC here Caldwell did.  Dungy has Christensen as a poistion coach here just like Pagano does all be it at the QB poistion vs. the WR poistion under Dungy. 

 

Also Christensen was the OC for the 2010 Colts and the offense did just fine that year.  Running an offense with Peyton Manning vs. having to do with it Shaun King or Curtis Painter aren't exactly the same things.  I think we saw mixed results with him as a play caller in Tampa on a team that wasn't built to be great on offense good results in 2010 and I don't there is a play caller a live that could have made Painter good in 2011. 

On the Caldwell promotion, of course Polian and Irsay agreed to it. But this was put in motion by Dungy. All that about the Falcons and Caldwell getting interest and all is fine and dandy, and same for Chris, but it's very, very rare for any team to name a successor to their head coach position before the current coach leaves. Especially in the modern NFL. I can only remember us doing it and the Seahawks doing it with Jim Mora, Jr., and neither instance worked out very well. It's the wrong way to hire your head coach, plain and simple. The Steelers knew Cowher was leaving, but rather than designating his replacement in advance, in the name of continuity, they interviewed candidates and made a decision without prejudice. That decision wound up being counter to the direction they were expected to go in. I could go on and on. You don't allow your current head coach, who has been pondering retirement for two years already, to name his replacement, just because you want him to stay another year.

How do you know it was put in motion by Dungy?  Polian was the one who loved to talk about having a plan of succession in place as did Irsay.  They didn't want things to change when Dungy left and looked at Caldwell and seemed to think he was the best fit to make that happen.  I really don't see Tony Dungy walking into Jim Irsay or Bill Polian's office and saying you are going to make Jim Caldwell the head coach in waiting.  I also think Polian is the kinda guy had Dungy done that wouldn't have done it just to spit someone for doing it to them.  Make no mistake it was done because Polian and Irsay liked the plan not because Dungy made them do it.  I never said the plan worked as it clearly didn't I am just saying blaming Dungy for it is a little far fetched.  There is no way that plan happens if Irsay and Polian didn't want it. 

And that's just what happened. Irsay went along with it because he wanted Dungy to stay. Polian went along with it because a) Irsay said so, b) it provided a semblance of "continuity," and c) because Caldwell could be controlled. It's as simple as that, and that's just how it played out for the next three years. And it proved to be a massive mistake. Whether Irsay and Polian held Caldwell in high regard or not -- obviously they did -- he's not the kind of guy that you stamp as "irreplaceable," and go to moving heaven and earth to keep around. There's nothing in his history as a coach, on any level, in any position, to suggest that he was worth that kind of designation. The motivation behind promoting Caldwell the way they did was primarily to keep Dungy around for at least another year.

Again how do you know this?  This sound much more like this is your opinion than it is fact.  They wanted Dungy to stay but I really doubt Dungy staying was based on them making Jim Caldwell the Head Coach in waiting.  I think them making Jim Caldwell the coach in waiting was done more out of fear of Caldwell leaving because Dungy was staying than anything else.  Had the Falcons not been interested in bringing Caldwell and Chris Polian in to run their teams I think it's very likely they don't get the promotions they did. 

 

Again, I don't think Dungy retiring or not had anything to do with Caldwell.  I think Dungy was going to come back one more year regardless of what they did with Caldwell.  I think Irsay and Polian weren't dumb though they knew Dungy was probably done sooner rather than later and they didn't want things to change when Dungy left so they did what they had to do to keep the guy they thought was the best guy for the job in place.  They had already lost Fraiser to the Vikings (who I think was the original guy they wanted to be the Head Coach in waiting) and were scared they would lose Caldwell too.

In hindsight, we probably would have been better off letting Dungy retire in 2008. Again, I have tremendous respect for Dungy. But look at the coaching candidates available that year. Or even in 2009. We would have been better off conducting an exhaustive search for a coach in 2008 than promoting Caldwell the way we did. No reason he couldn't have been a candidate at that point in time, but with guys like John Harbaugh and Mike Smith on the market, odds are we would have considered going in a different direction. Maybe not, but at least we would have been more diligent about making sure we had the best guy available for the job. 

In retrospect I wished they had hired someone other than Caldwell too but them hiring Caldwell doesn't change how good of a coach Dungy was or wasn't which is what we are talking about here. 

Getting back to the point, Dungy isn't above reproach. Just because someone points out what they perceive to be flaws doesn't mean they're afraid of sticking blame on Manning. Nor does it mean they don't think Dungy was a good coach who did good things for the team. I think we should be able to make an honest appraisal of even people we hold in high regard, without being accused of having an ulterior motive.

Never said he was.  However, I didn't start this by saying Dungy was perfect or above reproach.  You started it by calling him over-rated.  I don't think he was.  I think he was the second best coach of his generation behind BB and his track record proves that, faults and all. 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#48 Superman

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:26 AM

Nor did I ever say he was perfect or without fault but that didn't stop you from acting like I said it...

 

Also when you things like Dungy is overrated yes that is down playing him which you and other poster did say. 

 

The whole Manning thing came from Southwest saying Dungy won a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning and the return of Bob Sanders I already explained that.  I also explained in a latter post to Southwest he isn't the first person to try to imply that Dungy just got lucky to be the head coach of this team when they won a Super Bowl and said to him that has gone on for years around here which it has.  My point to him was that it wasn't just those two who carried us to a ring and anyone could have coached the team.  It took a lot of people, including, Manning, Sanders, Dungy, and several others to win that ring. 

Yeah he wanted to punt and it was the wrong call.  You know what I also remember about that game?  Peyton Manning and the offense looking like Curtis Painter and the offense last year till the fourth quarter.  That wasn't all on the Head Coach.  That's what I mean by the players share in some of the blame for the playoff loses too.  Yet people seem to want to put all the blame on Dungy and not mention the players.  My theory on that is that people do that because they tend to not like to blame Manning for things around here. 

 

You know why he kicked in a lot of those spots?  Because to that point in the game the offense had not been playing very well and he saw a chance to get points.  Heck in some of those games the offense had been playing well but Dungy knew the value of points when you could get them.  The Pats game here in 2003 played out exactly like Dungy thought it would.  Get points there get a stop and go score to win the game with no time left. They did everything except score which came down to the players not exciting on the field not the coaches.  There were several games under Dungy where they did something similar and it worked out and the Colts ended up winning the game.  Dungy didn't like to go for it till they were left with no other option because he knew picking up fourth downs in the NFL is hard and he also knew in all likely hood they were going to need a defensive stop and the odds of them getting one after a fourth down stuff by the other team was much lower than getting one after you scored some point and had the crowd into it.  Dungy played the percentages.  Yes he was a little too rigged on them at times like I have said he wasn't perfect but rather than trying to cherry pick some examples to make him look worse than he was I choose to look at the whole body of work that says Dungy was a darn good coach. 

If we fire the DC after the Jags game in 2006 like most people wanted the team to do there is no Super Bowl run with an interim DC that year.  Dungy saw that for exactly what it was it wasn't that the wrong plays were being called it was the players on the field not making them.  That's why I say you have to give Dungy credit for not caving to the pressure to fire Meeks and ridding it out and more importantly you have to give credit to Dungy and his coaches for coaching those players up to play better once the playoffs hit.  Dungy pushed the right buttons there in season. 

You said it yourself hat he dragged Christensen around with him.  Maybe there is a reason for that and it's not just because Dungy was loyal to him maybe because Dungy knew he was a good coach.  Also Dungy didn't make Christensen the OC here Caldwell did.  Dungy has Christensen as a poistion coach here just like Pagano does all be it at the QB poistion vs. the WR poistion under Dungy. 

 

Also Christensen was the OC for the 2010 Colts and the offense did just fine that year.  Running an offense with Peyton Manning vs. having to do with it Shaun King or Curtis Painter aren't exactly the same things.  I think we saw mixed results with him as a play caller in Tampa on a team that wasn't built to be great on offense good results in 2010 and I don't there is a play caller a live that could have made Painter good in 2011. 

How do you know it was put in motion by Dungy?  Polian was the one who loved to talk about having a plan of succession in place as did Irsay.  They didn't want things to change when Dungy left and looked at Caldwell and seemed to think he was the best fit to make that happen.  I really don't see Tony Dungy walking into Jim Irsay or Bill Polian's office and saying you are going to make Jim Caldwell the head coach in waiting.  I also think Polian is the kinda guy had Dungy done that wouldn't have done it just to spit someone for doing it to them.  Make no mistake it was done because Polian and Irsay liked the plan not because Dungy made them do it.  I never said the plan worked as it clearly didn't I am just saying blaming Dungy for it is a little far fetched.  There is no way that plan happens if Irsay and Polian didn't want it. 

Again how do you know this?  This sound much more like this is your opinion than it is fact.  They wanted Dungy to stay but I really doubt Dungy staying was based on them making Jim Caldwell the Head Coach in waiting.  I think them making Jim Caldwell the coach in waiting was done more out of fear of Caldwell leaving because Dungy was staying than anything else.  Had the Falcons not been interested in bringing Caldwell and Chris Polian in to run their teams I think it's very likely they don't get the promotions they did. 

 

Again, I don't think Dungy retiring or not had anything to do with Caldwell.  I think Dungy was going to come back one more year regardless of what they did with Caldwell.  I think Irsay and Polian weren't dumb though they knew Dungy was probably done sooner rather than later and they didn't want things to change when Dungy left so they did what they had to do to keep the guy they thought was the best guy for the job in place.  They had already lost Fraiser to the Vikings (who I think was the original guy they wanted to be the Head Coach in waiting) and were scared they would lose Caldwell too.

In retrospect I wished they had hired someone other than Caldwell too but them hiring Caldwell doesn't change how good of a coach Dungy was or wasn't which is what we are talking about here. 

Never said he was.  However, I didn't start this by saying Dungy was perfect or above reproach.  You started it by calling him over-rated.  I don't think he was.  I think he was the second best coach of his generation behind BB and his track record proves that, faults and all. 

 

thumbs-up.jpg

 

You got it.


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#49 swflacoltsfans

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:47 AM

i haven't seen this posted here anywhere, but if it is, forgive me and feel free to pull it down....

 

Tony Dungy criticized John Harbaugh, who he believes rested his players to get the Colts over the Bengals...

 

It's here in the Baltimore paper:  http://articles.balt...augh-tony-dungy

 

From the Article:

 

 

“I’m a little surprised that John Harbaugh is saying that they were not playing for more,” Dungy said during Sunday night’s broadcast just prior to the Dallas Cowboys-Washington Redskins tilt. “They had a chance to get to the No. 3 seed. He was very comfortable at No. 4 and that tells me that they want to play in Indianapolis. I would have played my guys to go ahead and get a chance to get to the No. 3 spot.”

 

Fellow analyst Rodney Harrison disagreed with Dungy. “I believe it was the right move,” the former New England Patriots safety said. “What is the difference between Cincinnati and Indianapolis? It’s not like the difference between Cincinnati and the Patriots.”

 

Dungy’s last comment on the topic: “He wanted Indianapolis and he’s got them now.”

 

ColtsHappy

That's funny. Dungy not agreeing with resting players? How many times did he rest players when he was the coach of the Colts!!

If we had Pagano or a tough coach like him instead of Dungy we would have won at least one more super bowl when Peyton was here.



#50 jvan1973

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:32 AM

That's funny. Dungy not agreeing with resting players? How many times did he rest players when he was the coach of the Colts!!
If we had Pagano or a tough coach like him instead of Dungy we would have won at least one more super bowl when Peyton was here.

Dungy never rested players with higher seeding on the line

#51 FireJimCaldwell

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:40 AM

Dungy never rested players with higher seeding on the line

That might be the case, I haven't dug into those games/situations, nor will I, but like Southwest said it can come off as a bit hypocritical, because the resting of the players whether a seed for your own team is on the line it is still dictating to an extent who makes the playoffs.

 

Like in 2010, if the Colts decided to play the whole game against the Jets instead of going Luke Skywalker on them, the Jets don't make the playoffs. So from that perspective, that example of resting of the players can be compared to Harbaugh resting the Ravens. 

 

As others have said for the Ravens to move up it would have taken the Dolphins knocking off the Patriots in Foxboro. That wasn't happening barring a major injury. So to me it was basically like the Ravens seed/opponent was set. He made the decision.  I would have looked at it differently, and since Caldwell has what? 2 games experience calling plays or is it 3? I would have given him another games experience of calling plays with Flacco at QB. If it gets out of hand, then I make some substitutions. 



#52 JoKeR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:40 AM


Am I the only one who considers Tony Dungy's comments hypocritical considering he loved to rest players for the Colts at the worst possible times prior to a Playoff game & completely deflate our confidence and MOJO. Ah Tony, you weren't exactly smart in your decision making when the post season started okay. No disrespect, but let's get real alright. Tony was a fine, upstanding father, husband, & community leader. As a HC however, Dungy left a lot to be desired. Yes, he was the 1st black HC to win a SB, but he never possessed the killer NFL instinct to neutral your opponent & maintain team chemistry IMO.

The only thing that might have hypocritical is if the Ravens were that worried about health, Dungy was always concerned about health. But I think Dungy just sees the Ravens ducking the Bengals, to play the Colts. And Dungy didn't rest players if there was a chance to improve in seeding, like our Championship year.

#53 JoKeR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:48 AM

IMO Dungy believed the PM Colts were so great in preparation and practice that they didn't really need momentum, that the team would overcome with execution. When you have Peyton Manning as your QB, it's easy to think this way. It's not necessarily wrong, it's just a different coaching philosophy.

#54 lollygagger8

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:11 PM

I'm happy that we are playing the Ravens. Out of all the AFC teams, they are the most beatable.

 

I also am glad to play them because Jim Caldwell is their OC.

 

It will be cool to see Pagano back in Baltimore as well.



#55 King Colt

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

Home field is huge here with Luck not up to par away from Lucas. Pagano is also huge in this game. Ravens are favored by 6.5 points so far.
"Build The Monster, Then Turn It Loose"

#56 krunk

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:26 PM

The other thing I remember about Tony is that he came from Tampa Bay as a defensive mastermind & he won a SB in 2006 in INDY under the guidance of Peyton Manning & the return of Bob Sanders.
 
Although, I have always respected Dungy's calmness in the eye of a hurricane, his management style was never crack the whip/fire & brimstone, which is fine, but I have always favored coaches like Bill Cowher & Jon Gruden who will get in your face & hold everyone accountable.
 
There is a time for reassurance and a time for tough love. Tony Dungy had the patience, reassurance, and ability to build you back up...Laying down the law with considerable force when necessary not so much. 


Isn't Bill Bellichick just about your favorite coach? I don't exactly see him as a fire and brimstone guy. You can barely get a word out of the man. He's demonstrative sometimes, but overall he doesn't usually seem to say a whole bunch on the sidelines. I like good football coaches, and I think Dungy was one. I didn't think he was over rated at all. He did a lot in my opinion to settle Peyton down, decrease his interceptions, and make his game more efficient. Other than the fact that the guys believed in Peyton, I think Dungy had a lot to do with the resolve our team had. I hated it when he decided to quit. My biggest dissapointment from his time in Indy is that he was never able to build a defense that was as stingy as the one in Tampa. We had some good units at times, but nothing like Sapp, Lynch, and Brooks.

#57 Jules

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:17 PM

I appreciate Dungy and think he can be a really underrated coach at times when we look back. I appreciated him more then ever last season......

 

But, one thing that always bugged me was what Warren Sapp said during the Bucs America's game. He basically said he loved Dungy to death but he was not the man to get them over the top and he let the offense lax.



#58 BleedingBlue

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:43 PM

Well ray ray just upped the ante.
Calvin Johnson drops 2 passes in the 4th Quarter? Really?

#59 krunk

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:34 PM

We are definitely going to have to match their intensity with the Ray Lewis stuff going on, but I think Pagano will have us prepared.

#60 southwest1

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:27 AM

Isn't Bill Bellichick just about your favorite coach? I don't exactly see him as a fire and brimstone guy. You can barely get a word out of the man. He's demonstrative sometimes, but overall he doesn't usually seem to say a whole bunch on the sidelines. I like good football coaches, and I think Dungy was one. I didn't think he was over rated at all. He did a lot in my opinion to settle Peyton down, decrease his interceptions, and make his game more efficient. Other than the fact that the guys believed in Peyton, I think Dungy had a lot to do with the resolve our team had. I hated it when he decided to quit. My biggest dissapointment from his time in Indy is that he was never able to build a defense that was as stingy as the one in Tampa. We had some good units at times, but nothing like Sapp, Lynch, and Brooks.

It's not a question of always being fire & brimstone Krunk. It's about knowing when to be reassuring & patient & when to remind lollygagers whose boss & stop horsing around & get serious. Yes, I respect Bill Belichick, but don't make the mistake that just because he says nothing riveting at a press conference that behind closed doors Bill doesn't have full command & control of that team. A common misconception. 

 

Not every NFL player responds to quiet example & reflection that Dungy was known for. Tony Dungy left at the right time. Do I respect Dungy? Absolutely. To Tony's credit, he let coordinators coach. Sometimes though, Tony's passive demeanor troubled me. True, I wasn't in meeting & I have no idea how he taught players I will admit. He was instrumental in bringing a Lombardi Trophy to INDY in 2006 & I will always respect Tony for that fact. 


"Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack." Sun Tzu

#61 southwest1

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:49 AM

This might sound unusual but when people talk about Tim Tebow & Tony Dungy a number of individuals seem to have difficulty separating their religious beliefs & off the field philanthrophy/charity work from their true skills as an NFL HC or QB. 

 

Take away Tony Dungy's religious beliefs & let's examine his skills creating schemes, calling plays, devising counter measures, dealing with the press, selecting draft picks, & carrying out motivational tactics & discipline measures. How was Tony at half time adjustments? How bout preparing his men for different random situations in a Playoff Game? 

 

Yes, Tony Dungy taught his players about perspective, life after football, family, & being a vital member of the community; But can we please separate the football coach from the father, religious man, and community leader. 


"Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack." Sun Tzu

#62 Superman

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:53 AM

This might sound unusual but when people talk about Tim Tebow & Tony Dungy a number of individuals seem to have difficulty separating their religious beliefs & off the field philanthrophy/charity work from their true skills as an NFL HC or QB. 

 

Take away Tony Dungy's religious beliefs & let's examine his skills creating schemes, calling plays, devising counter measures, dealing with the press, selecting draft picks, & carrying out motivational tactics & discipline measures. How was Tony at half time adjustments? How bout preparing his men for different random situations in a Playoff Game? 

 

Yes, Tony Dungy taught his players about perspective, life after football, family, & being a vital member of the community; But can we please separate the football coach from the father, religious man, and community leader. 

 

Do you have specific criticisms of his halftime adjustments or the way he prepared players for situations in big games?

 

I remember the Colts being one of the best second half teams in the league, coming back from halftime deficits more than anyone else during that stretch. I also remember the team being stymied in the playoffs mostly due to untimely turnovers, not due to unpreparedness.


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#63 GoColts8818

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:02 AM

Do you have specific criticisms of his halftime adjustments or the way he prepared players for situations in big games?

 

I remember the Colts being one of the best second half teams in the league, coming back from halftime deficits more than anyone else during that stretch. I also remember the team being stymied in the playoffs mostly due to untimely turnovers, not due to unpreparedness.

I think you hit the big nail on the head in terms of the biggest difference between Dungy and Caldwell.  I think Caldwell did a good job getting his teams ready to start the game but he didn't handle the flow of the game very well and adjust as the game went along.  Dungy on the other hand always seemed to know the right buttons to push during the game. 

 

As time has gone along I have noticed there tends to be a tendency by some (not saying you) to project some of Caldwell flaws onto Dungy and I think that is because Caldwell was Dungy's protege and groomed replacement.  That's not to say Dungy was without flaws but being able to adjust during the course of the game was not one of them. 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#64 southwest1

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:03 AM

Do you have specific criticisms of his halftime adjustments or the way he prepared players for situations in big games?

I remember the Colts being one of the best second half teams in the league, coming back from halftime deficits more than anyone else during that stretch. I also remember the team being stymied in the playoffs mostly due to untimely turnovers, not due to unpreparedness.
Recently, a number of coaches were fired because they failed to win division titles or enough SB victories. I just find it troubling that Tony Dungy is typically mentioned as a devoutly religious man & then a football coach. I don't blame Tony for this. I blame how the media address & cover Tony. Lovie Smith was fired. So was Andy Reid. No one ever says Andy & Lovie are fine upstanding religious men aren't they? Now, let's talk about their NFL careers shall we?

When you do a job, your beliefs can influence you sure, but you are supposed to be objective & judge a HC based on division titles, time of possession, limited turnovers, crucial adjustments, Playoff wins, community involvements, & SB trophies not he's a nice upstanding guy.
"Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack." Sun Tzu

#65 Superman

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:17 AM

I think you hit the big nail on the head in terms of the biggest difference between Dungy and Caldwell.  I think Caldwell did a good job getting his teams ready to start the game but he didn't handle the flow of the game very well and adjust as the game went along.  Dungy on the other hand always seemed to know the right buttons to push during the game. 

 

As time has gone along I have noticed there tends to be a tendency by some (not saying you) to project some of Caldwell flaws onto Dungy and I think that is because Caldwell was Dungy's protege and groomed replacement.  That's not to say Dungy was without flaws but being able to adjust during the course of the game was not one of them. 

 

I mentioned before that I think Dungy would err on the side of caution too often. There are certain points in a game where I think fortune favors the bold, not reckless decisions, but measured aggression, and Dungy was always conservative. That's what I didn't like about his in game approach.

 

(I think Pagano is this way, as well. We had a 4th and 3 in plus territory against the Texans on Sunday, and I personally think the numbers dictate that you go for it every time in that situation, but Pagano chose to punt. His decision worked out, because we pinned them at the 3 yard line and then forced a turnover. But 80% of the time, that's a touchback, and you've earned 20 yards in field position, whereas you had a 70% chance of converting on 4th and short. Matter of fact, we're 7/8 on 4th down this season, league best, another stat that doesn't make sense for having such a young offense. Anyways, I think that's a spot where you go for it every time, and Arians would probably have gone for it, but Pagano won't. There were also a couple of field goals and punts that I disagreed with earlier in the season.)

 

But all those comebacks don't happen without some defensive stops. The Rosencopter game always comes to mind. Credit can't just go to the offense and Manning for engineering comebacks in the 4th quarter. You have to force turnovers and get the ball back. Dungy deserves kudos for keeping his team in the game mentally. 

 

However, I would have to say that he was much more likely to preach about "doing what we do, just doing it better," than he was to say "let's try this in the second half and see what happens." 


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#66 Superman

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:19 AM

Recently, a number of coaches were fired because they failed to win division titles or enough SB victories. I just find it troubling that Tony Dungy is typically mentioned as a devoutly religious man & then a football coach. I don't blame Tony for this. I blame how the media address & cover Tony. Lovie Smith was fired. So was Andy Reid. No one ever says Andy & Lovie are fine upstanding religious men aren't they? Now, let's talk about their NFL careers shall we?

When you do a job, your beliefs can influence you sure, but you are supposed to be objective & judge a HC based on division titles, time of possession, limited turnovers, crucial adjustments, Playoff wins, community involvements, & SB trophies not he's a nice upstanding guy.

 

I don't care about his being a religious man. I think he's a person who makes it his objective to treat other people well, rather than using them to get what he wants. He's a sincere individual, and he's loyal to his own. That doesn't make him a good football coach; as a matter of fact, in some ways it was a detriment. 

 

I was just asking if you had specific criticisms of Dungy in the areas you mentioned.


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#67 southwest1

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:25 AM

The problem with the media covering a coach this way is that it creates a false buffer which almost makes the person immune & impervious from any criticism that every other coach in the NFL is held in accordance to.

 

I guess you could make the argument that since Tony is no longer coaching in the NFL it doesn't matter, but it does because holding someone on a pedestal in the media makes them almost iconic and non human. Critical thinking & honest evaluation of his professional NFL career makes it much more difficult to judge honestly & fairly especially when several other coaches are not granted the same benefit of the doubt IMO.

 

Tony Dungy himself would not want this shielded status either. 


"Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack." Sun Tzu

#68 GoColts8818

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:26 AM

I mentioned before that I think Dungy would err on the side of caution too often. There are certain points in a game where I think fortune favors the bold, not reckless decisions, but measured aggression, and Dungy was always conservative. That's what I didn't like about his in game approach.

 

(I think Pagano is this way, as well. We had a 4th and 3 in plus territory against the Texans on Sunday, and I personally think the numbers dictate that you go for it every time in that situation, but Pagano chose to punt. His decision worked out, because we pinned them at the 3 yard line and then forced a turnover. But 80% of the time, that's a touchback, and you've earned 20 yards in field position, whereas you had a 70% chance of converting on 4th and short. Matter of fact, we're 7/8 on 4th down this season, league best, another stat that doesn't make sense for having such a young offense. Anyways, I think that's a spot where you go for it every time, and Arians would probably have gone for it, but Pagano won't. There were also a couple of field goals and punts that I disagreed with earlier in the season.)

 

But all those comebacks don't happen without some defensive stops. The Rosencopter game always comes to mind. Credit can't just go to the offense and Manning for engineering comebacks in the 4th quarter. You have to force turnovers and get the ball back. Dungy deserves kudos for keeping his team in the game mentally. 

 

However, I would have to say that he was much more likely to preach about "doing what we do, just doing it better," than he was to say "let's try this in the second half and see what happens." 

That's the thing I think there is a difference between being conservative and making adjustments as the game went along.  I agree with you Dungy was extremely conservative and probably to a fault. 

 

With Pagano I think Pagano played the odds.  The Colts big plays this year on defense have come when they have had other team pinned up against the goal-line and I also think he knows McAfee is a weapon back there who can pin the other team within the five yard line just about every time in that situation.  I know people didn't like it last year when Polian said McAfee needed to work on his directional kicking but he was right and McAfee has been better at directional kicking this year and I think he has become one of the top three punters in the NFL. 

 

I would agree Dungy would say let's do what we do mostly because what got them in trouble in the first place was when they stopped doing what they do.  With that said I do think Dungy knew the small adjustments to make that would make us play better.  Again, Dungy's biggest strength was being able to stay calm in big situations and get the most out of his players.  Still he did a great job of knowing what he needed to get out of them.  Like I said before Dungy just had "it" much like I think Pagano has "it" while I don't think Caldwell ever had "it". 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#69 southwest1

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:27 AM

I don't care about his being a religious man. I think he's a person who makes it his objective to treat other people well, rather than using them to get what he wants. He's a sincere individual, and he's loyal to his own. That doesn't make him a good football coach; as a matter of fact, in some ways it was a detriment. 

 

I was just asking if you had specific criticisms of Dungy in the areas you mentioned.

It has nothing to do with you Superman. You completely missed my point.


"Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack." Sun Tzu

#70 GoColts8818

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:31 AM

Recently, a number of coaches were fired because they failed to win division titles or enough SB victories. I just find it troubling that Tony Dungy is typically mentioned as a devoutly religious man & then a football coach. I don't blame Tony for this. I blame how the media address & cover Tony. Lovie Smith was fired. So was Andy Reid. No one ever says Andy & Lovie are fine upstanding religious men aren't they? Now, let's talk about their NFL careers shall we?

When you do a job, your beliefs can influence you sure, but you are supposed to be objective & judge a HC based on division titles, time of possession, limited turnovers, crucial adjustments, Playoff wins, community involvements, & SB trophies not he's a nice upstanding guy.

Well I don't think they put themselves out there to be those things like Dungy did.  Like I said before if you ever read Dungy's book he makes it clear he would much rather you think of him as a great man than you think of him as a great coach.  Dungy would use his platform as a coach to spread his view on other things.  With that said, I don't think Dungy let those things get in the way of his things.  Also just for the record I have heard people praise Lovie for being a fine and upstanding religious man.  Remember he came off the Dungy tree as well.  Granted I didn't hear it as loud for Lovie as I did for Dungy but Lovie didn't put it out there much as Dungy did either.


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#71 Superman

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:00 AM

It has nothing to do with you Superman. You completely missed my point.

 

Must have...


LET'S HUNT

#72 Indianapolis-Colts-Fan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:20 AM

I watched Dungy's whole career with the Colts, he was a very conservative play caller. More often than not, I was shocked when we would go for it on 4th down. Players loved to play for him I know but. But I hated how conservative he was. I hated resting players. I was somewhat saddened by him retiring. But I was more excited to see what we would bring it. Maybe the changes would be made and we would be more aggressive. That didn't happen. I must say the most exciting thing I saw the Colts do was fire the polians and caldwell, and second most exciting thing was the hiring of Pagano. And that excitment has only grown as this season has gone on. I wanted the Polians gone and i was very shocked, that it actually happened.

#73 krunk

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:57 PM

It's not a question of always being fire & brimstone Krunk. It's about knowing when to be reassuring & patient & when to remind lollygagers whose boss & stop horsing around & get serious. Yes, I respect Bill Belichick, but don't make the mistake that just because he says nothing riveting at a press conference that behind closed doors Bill doesn't have full command & control of that team. A common misconception. 
 
Not every NFL player responds to quiet example & reflection that Dungy was known for. Tony Dungy left at the right time. Do I respect Dungy? Absolutely. To Tony's credit, he let coordinators coach. Sometimes though, Tony's passive demeanor troubled me. True, I wasn't in meeting & I have no idea how he taught players I will admit. He was instrumental in bringing a Lombardi Trophy to INDY in 2006 & I will always respect Tony for that fact. 



I can respect your stance Southwest, but I don't think I can recall much of any time where Tony didn't have control of his team or they weren't fully behind him or buying into what he instilled. I don't think(and this is just my take) he was passive, I just think he felt football was a game of execution, more than it was a game of yelling and screaming. To me he was able to get his point across, but he didn't choose to do it by firing off into people. To each his own I suppose. He focused more on the execution, and if guys weren't executing you would see them cut or benched sooner or later. A criticism of Dungy that I identify more with is he was known to be a bit too loyal. He had a belief system about things, and if he firmly believed in it he stuck with it a bit too long in some cases.

#74 No 1 Manning Fan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:10 PM

I sensed weakness a month ago. Not really worried about any perceived disrespect. I think we have a better shot at beating the Ravens than any other playoff team, so I'm glad they didn't play for the three seed.

I would have been just as happy playing Houston. They have looked just as vulnerable if not more so than Baltimore as of late. But either way, we're not playing New England in the first round which gives me hope.

#75 southwest1

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:33 AM

I can respect your stance Southwest, but I don't think I can recall much of any time where Tony didn't have control of his team or they weren't fully behind him or buying into what he instilled. I don't think(and this is just my take) he was passive, I just think he felt football was a game of execution, more than it was a game of yelling and screaming. To me he was able to get his point across, but he didn't choose to do it by firing off into people. To each his own I suppose. He focused more on the execution, and if guys weren't executing you would see them cut or benched sooner or later. A criticism of Dungy that I identify more with is he was known to be a bit too loyal. He had a belief system about things, and if he firmly believed in it he stuck with it a bit too long in some cases.

I always like your analysis krunk. You say what you mean & mean what you say. You are objective & you are never malicious. I respect that. Also, your criticism is always constructive. You never slam somebody just to slam somebody. 

 

Me, like I have said many times before, I'm not a stats guy or x's & o's guy. I'm a PR guy who taps into emotions, team chemistry, culture changes, & the psychological side of both winning & loosing & using those sentiments as fuel to turn the tide of a team's fortunes. 

 

If I were to encapsulate what Tony Dungy brought to Indianapolis in 2 words: unwavering stability. I do agree with you though. Tony Dungy was extremely loyal almost to a fault. The only time I ever remember Tony releasing someone he had a disagreement with was kicker Mike Vanderjagt. It is a testament to Tony's character I suppose that GM's, owners, & players across the league  speak so highly of him to this day. 

 

I guess I am just intrigued by the mythological status that some coaches obtain...Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, Don Shula, Tony Dungy, & Bill Belichick just to name a few. Yes, winning Championships is part of that mystique naturally. I liken it world famous bands. A lot of bad musicians can sell a few million records, but only a select few can crank out Platinum record after Platinum record with sold out venues where ever they tour. I guess it boils down to universal respect among one's peers either in music or the world of professional sports and I will always hold Tony Dungy in high regard. I wasn't questioning Tony's football knowledge or prowess as an NFL coach just how he is typically perceived by the National Sports Media that's all...Religious community leader 1st and a coach 2nd. 


"Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack." Sun Tzu

#76 GoColts8818

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:40 AM

I always like your analysis krunk. You say what you mean & mean what you say. You are objective & you are never malicious. I respect that. Also, your criticism is always constructive. You never slam somebody just to slam somebody. 

 

Me, like I have said many times before, I'm not a stats guy or x's & o's guy. I'm a PR guy who taps into emotions, team chemistry, culture changes, & the psychological side of both winning & loosing & using those sentiments as fuel to turn the tide of a team's fortunes. 

 

If I were to encapsulate what Tony Dungy brought to Indianapolis in 2 words: unwavering stability. I do agree with you though. Tony Dungy was extremely loyal almost to a fault. The only time I ever remember Tony releasing someone he had a disagreement with was kicker Mike Vanderjagt. It is a testament to Tony's character I suppose that GM's, owners, & players across the league  speak so highly of him to this day. 

Well to be fair we kept Vandy after that.  The Colts choose not to re-sign when him when his contract expired after the miss vs. the Steelers in the playoffs. 

 

To the main point here mostly it's GMs that cut people not so much coaches.  Not to say coaches don't have a major say in it.  However, I do think the Colts tried to avoid players that would put themselves in spots where they would have to release them for having an issue with them.  However two that do come to mind are Corey Simon and Ed Johnson both of which were released after having issues. 

 

The last thing I would say on this point is that we don't know what would happen behind closed doors.  Dungy liked to keep things in house and we probably didn't hear about most issues he had to address.  It doesn't mean they weren't there. 

I guess I am just intrigued by the mythological status that some coaches obtain...Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, Don Shula, Tony Dungy, & Bill Belichick just to name a few. Yes, winning Championships is part of that mystique naturally. I liken it world famous bands. A lot of bad musicians can sell a few million records, but only a select few can crank out Platinum record after Platinum record with sold out venues where ever they tour. I guess it boils down to universal respect among one's peers either in music or the world of professional sports and I will always hold Tony Dungy in high regard. I wasn't questioning Tony's football knowledge or prowess as an NFL coach just how he is typically perceived by the National Sports Media that's all...Religious community leader 1st and a coach 2nd. 

I think you are spot on at the end there.  I think that is exactly what Dungy wants you to think of him as and has taken steps to make sure he is seen that way. 


Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#77 krunk

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:15 AM

I mentioned before that I think Dungy would err on the side of caution too often. There are certain points in a game where I think fortune favors the bold, not reckless decisions, but measured aggression, and Dungy was always conservative. That's what I didn't like about his in game approach.
 
(I think Pagano is this way, as well. We had a 4th and 3 in plus territory against the Texans on Sunday, and I personally think the numbers dictate that you go for it every time in that situation, but Pagano chose to punt. His decision worked out, because we pinned them at the 3 yard line and then forced a turnover. But 80% of the time, that's a touchback, and you've earned 20 yards in field position, whereas you had a 70% chance of converting on 4th and short. Matter of fact, we're 7/8 on 4th down this season, league best, another stat that doesn't make sense for having such a young offense. Anyways, I think that's a spot where you go for it every time, and Arians would probably have gone for it, but Pagano won't. There were also a couple of field goals and punts that I disagreed with earlier in the season.)
 
But all those comebacks don't happen without some defensive stops. The Rosencopter game always comes to mind. Credit can't just go to the offense and Manning for engineering comebacks in the 4th quarter. You have to force turnovers and get the ball back. Dungy deserves kudos for keeping his team in the game mentally. 
 
However, I would have to say that he was much more likely to preach about "doing what we do, just doing it better," than he was to say "let's try this in the second half and see what happens." 
 
 

I'm glad you mentioned Pagano in regards to being conservative. I had made comments a while back saying that I thought Pagano would pull the reins in a little bit on Arians when he got back, but not in a bad way. It seemed when Pagano was here at times we were a bit conservative in the second half of games, which gave me a small bit of incite into what kind of coach Pagano was. Arians on the other hand is 100 percent gunslinger, and at various times this year when he was head coach I felt like he would get carried away with it. So when Pagano got back I figured he would balance Bruce out a bit, but not to our disadvantage. It certainly seemed that way against Houston. There was a good mix of everything...

#78 krunk

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

I view Dungy as a very good coach. He brought a lot of efficiency and consistency to this team. I also thought he was very good at getting the right type of personnel for his schemes, which he was also good at that in Tampa.

Nobody ever talks about this, but there were some pretty good coaches that came from under Dungy. There were 6 Head coaches that came off of that staff. The troubling thing for me however is most of them carry his penchant for not producing a whole heck of alot of offense! I noticed that Dungy also studied up under Marty Shottenheimer as well, so maybe the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Yeah I know he had a darn good offense with Indy, but honestly I believe a lot of that was due to Peyton more than it was an Ah Hah moment for Dungy.

Mike Tomlin 1 Super Bowl Win, 1 Super Bowl loss. Multiple playoffs
Lovie Smith 1 Super Bowl appearance, plus playoffs
Herman Edwards Playoffs on more than one occasion
Jim Caldwell 1 Super Bowl appearance
Leslie Frazier Playoffs right now
Rod Marinelli Nothing!

#79 SupermanLuck12

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:22 PM

Hope Luck runs over Ray Lewis.
"In Grigson We Trust!"






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