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#241 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:06 AM

no they have not and PM is a great field general and has helped his new team get to the #1 seed this year . . . but as i mentioned in the prior post, it takes more that one player to make a team great, and surely PM has done his part and help to a significant degree the colts 2003-2010 to make one of the greatest runs in nfl history . . . but it takes supporting cast to help out (which is true of all HOF QBs) and prior to 03, the colts were a 500ish team over PM first 5 years and the years were not that much different than the preseeding 5 years with Harbuagh, i not taking a shot at PM but just making a point that it was not until some key member came to the colts that they went on thier run . . . which has a two fold point, its take more than one player to be great and with so many great players needed to be great, it typically takes the lost of those players, that is more than 2-3, to make the teams middle to bottom of the barrel

and for what it is worth, the colts this year were 11-5 without manning . . .

Ray Lewis is on record saying the Colts without Peyton Manning is a "very below average ballcluib".  2011 proved Ray correct.

 

And luck has a new team and O scheme, not Peytons team and O scheme, except for Reggie Wayne.  Apples/Oranges.


“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


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#242 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:09 AM

I thought it did, no?

 

I was probably too wordy. This is what makes them very atypical:

 

How many 2-14 teams in the history of the NFL made the playoffs for nine consecutive years prior to that season, then rebounded the following year to go back to the playoffs?

 

I don't think, well... any. But maybe I'm wrong...

How many other teams or QB's ran the Tom Moore / Peyton Manning no huddle scheme?


“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


#243 Superman

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:09 AM

Evidence says that they are the only two to do so since 1998, the other 3 failed...

 

I no of no other backup that might have been obtained in 2011 that could have done better either.  You got some names?


Now if your saying we could have other team elite QB... different ballgame.  And I say Manning has at least 5 rings playing for NE.  Right?

 

We could have signed Matt Hasselbeck, or drafted Colin Kaepernick or Andy Dalton (two guys we worked out). Of course, Manning hadn't even had his operation yet at the time of the draft, and that would have cost us Castonzo, but Hasselbeck didn't sign until July. Marc Bulger was also available. So was Brett Favre. (kidding, sort of)

 

Point being I think we could have done more than wake Kerry Collins up from hibernation halfway through training camp. 


LET'S HUNT

#244 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:16 AM

Thomas was a raw talent that didn't know much nor was much required of until Peyton's arrival...

 

http://www.nfl.com/n...hole-route-tree


“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


#245 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:29 AM

We could have signed Matt Hasselbeck, or drafted Colin Kaepernick or Andy Dalton (two guys we worked out). Of course, Manning hadn't even had his operation yet at the time of the draft, and that would have cost us Castonzo, but Hasselbeck didn't sign until July. Marc Bulger was also available. So was Brett Favre. (kidding, sort of)

 

Point being I think we could have done more than wake Kerry Collins up from hibernation halfway through training camp. 

Which begs the question, why Collins over Bulger?  We had Peyton and Painter. No other ever needed before. We werent prepared to give up a roster spot for a #3 QB, that was why Dan O. was let go... only to be brought back later, after the failed Collins experiment.


“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


#246 GoColts8818

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:10 AM

Once again, Kerry Collins is all I need to prove my point. Kerry Collins. A QB who was RETIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They didn't sign for one quality CB for that godawful team. Not one quality LB. Not one good O-lineman (wait, wasn't that a Colt major issue?).

Nobody.

The FO did nothing to win. Perhaps THAT'S why Irsay blew it all up?
yeah because no one has brought a QB out of retirement before (looks at Brett Favre)
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#247 GoColts8818

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:11 AM


Which begs the question, why Collins over Bulger? We had Peyton and Painter. No other ever needed before. We werent prepared to give up a roster spot for a #3 QB, that was why Dan O. was let go... only to be brought back later, after the failed Collins experiment.
because Polian knew Collins he was the GM that drafted him he didn't know Bulger.
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#248 GoColts8818

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:25 AM

We could have signed Matt Hasselbeck, or drafted Colin Kaepernick or Andy Dalton (two guys we worked out). Of course, Manning hadn't even had his operation yet at the time of the draft, and that would have cost us Castonzo, but Hasselbeck didn't sign until July. Marc Bulger was also available. So was Brett Favre. (kidding, sort of)

Point being I think we could have done more than wake Kerry Collins up from hibernation halfway through training camp.
last year when we played the titans the announces said we tried to sign Hasselbeck and he turned us down because he thought he would get more playing time with the Titans.

Also at the time of the draft everyone expected Peyton to be good to go it was on the eve of the season that they found out just how bad it was with Peyton. We rolled the dice with Collins and Painter and came up snake eyes. It happens. We fired the GM for putting his faith in them and the coach for not realizing we had a better option on the bench in Orlovsky sooner.

Again, and I know you aren't arguing that we sucked for Luck last year. But in order to do that the players have to buy in. There are guys out of the league that were on the Colts last year. I am supposed to believe they lost on purpose so they would lose their job and a shot at their dream just so the Colts could get Luck? Don't buy it. We have 37 new players from last year. Only Brown, Wayne, and Castonzo returned as starters from last years offense. That is a fairly major over haul. It's not like they just switched out the QB and moved on with the same team from last year. They over hauled the roster to get more talent.
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#249 Yehoodi

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:10 AM

Ray Lewis is on record saying the Colts without Peyton Manning is a "very below average ballcluib".  2011 proved Ray correct.
 
And luck has a new team and O scheme, not Peytons team and O scheme, except for Reggie Wayne.  Apples/Oranges.

Ray Lewis is a great LB and most certainly PM has helped out his team . . . but comments by Ray Lewis does not change the results of the colts from 1998-2002 and from 2003-2010 . . . prior to the addition of many key role players the colts were essentially a 500 team, well more importantingly not all that different than the year prior to 1998, so the notion that PM can make an very below average club great is crazy, as he would of done so prior to getting the support in the 2002-2003 era . . .

PM is like any other great QB who has played the game, he raises the level of his teammates and can be accounted for a few extra wins per season over an average QB . . . for example Tebow going 7-4 and Manning going 13-3 . . . and the difference between the likes of Manning, Brady and Rodgers is not that great, but enough that one can make an agrument among the three . . . but they all raise the level of their teams . . .

and the above goes for Brady too . . . I could sit here and say look what Brady did, he took a 5-11 team, that was 5-13 under BB when he took over from a franchise QB, and went on to a record of 11-3 (11-5 for season) went on to win a SB and 3 out of 4 and has never looked back . . . surely Brady is responsible for a great deal of that success, but we did get some role playhers in the draft and FA in 2001 that helps things along too . . .

as for for Luck, you guys still got Freeney and Mathis, and Wayne is having a great year and is his got to guy just as he was with Manning . . .

#250 fvantagio

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:28 AM

Wait, wait, wait.

How do you know that Decker and Thomas were average WRs before Peyton?

LOOK WHO WAS THROWING TO THEM!!! Less than average QBs!

How do I know? Cause they had no route running, they were consistently rounded, never consistent, slow, didnt get low enough, never threw in 2nd moves, didnt attack the ball as aggressively as youd like. So yes they had Tebow and Orton throwing them the ball, and yes that hampered their ability to develop as receivers. No argument there. But does that not therefore make them AVERAGE receivers?

Watch their routes now. Crisp and consistent, no more rounding, I've even seen Thomas run a triple move! That right there is whats known as the "Manning effect"

#251 Yehoodi

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:30 AM

^^Any of you "suck for luck" conspiracy theorists want to answer this?

I am not going to redraft my points as I already made them in several posts in response to this question . . . I will just point to my post #216 supra . . . and that a 2-14 is not one that is coming off one of the great runs in history . . .

Teams are a collection of 53 players, 22+ which start on O, D and ST, and it takes talent to be good . . . indeed you seen your own team grow under Manning, starting in 1998 and having some good years and bad years till 2003, with some key additions and were off and running . . . well the reverse is true and history (based on the team cited in my post 216) don't fall down to the worst team in the league in one year, much less than 2 years removed from one of best years we seen from a team at 14-0 . . . just as with all great team, which the colts are one, its takes time for them to peter out, you need to lose those great players one by one and then you can get to the bottom of the league . . .

I would add one point that a typical 2-14 does not race out to a 0-13 start, secure the #1 pick and then win two games against division rivals and then walk into the sunset with the #1 overall pick . . . indeed if they had the pedigree to beat two playoff teams after they secured the pick, they had the talent to win earlier in the season . . .

also, as 2-14 teams go, they stay 2-14 the next season, well at least, stay south of say 6 wins, the colts won 11 wins . . . so on both sides of the 2-14 season the colts have done something that has not happen in at least the last 40 years of football and not only have it once, but twice . . .

#252 fvantagio

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:34 AM


as for for Luck, you guys still got Freeney and Mathis, and Wayne is having a great year and is his got to guy just as he was with Manning . . .

Yes, Freeneys 12 tackles and 5 sacks this year is really what made us a playoff contender...

#253 fvantagio

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:38 AM

Yep, because the phrase "Suck for Luck" wasn't ever mentioned anywhere.

ROFL

Yes those fans where really high ranking Colts staff members. (sarcasm)

#254 Yehoodi

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

Yes, Freeneys 12 tackles and 5 sacks this year is really what made us a playoff contender...

perhaps not, but Wayne's 100+ catches and 1300+ yards did tho . . .

#255 GoPats

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:45 AM

Evidence says that they are the only two to do so since 1998, the other 3 failed...

 

I no of no other backup that might have been obtained in 2011 that could have done better either.  You got some names?


Now if your saying we could have other team elite QB... different ballgame.  And I say Manning has at least 5 rings playing for NE.  Right?

 

By the time it was clear Manning would miss the entire season, it was too late for the Colts to go get a quality QB. Maybe they thought Painter was better than he really was, I don't know. But there wasn't much that could be done at that point. They had to ride out the season with what they had.

 

I don't know if you're kidding/trolling me about the bold part, but it's so out there that, in the spirit of diplomacy, I'll just pass on commenting. ;)



#256 GoPats

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:57 AM

How many other teams or QB's ran the Tom Moore / Peyton Manning no huddle scheme?

 

Plus, don't forget, Peyton did that thing where he solved world hunger, developed cold fusion, invented the Internet, found the Holy Grail, cured all known diseases, and pooped golden eggs... and that was just halftime.

 

:D ;) :thmup: :highfive2:



#257 IndyTrav

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

How do I know? Cause they had no route running, they were consistently rounded, never consistent, slow, didnt get low enough, never threw in 2nd moves, didnt attack the ball as aggressively as youd like. So yes they had Tebow and Orton throwing them the ball, and yes that hampered their ability to develop as receivers. No argument there. But does that not therefore make them AVERAGE receivers?

Watch their routes now. Crisp and consistent, no more rounding, I've even seen Thomas run a triple move! That right there is whats known as the "Manning effect"

It's also known as player progression. Especially at the WR position, which generally takes years to develop. Has Peyton made them better? Sure he has. He's a great QB, they make WR better. But these guys have star written all over them. And Thomas has super star written on him. Both of these guys would be legitimate threats on any other team in the league. Lets not tear them down simply to make Manning look better.

I like to argue. 


#258 fvantagio

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:39 AM

perhaps not, but Wayne's 100+ catches and 1300+ yards did tho . . .

Yup, no disagreement there. But as we have seen with the Lions, one great WR doesnt get you to playoffs.

#259 fvantagio

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="IndyTrav" data-cid="384216"><p>It's also known as player progression. Especially at the WR position, which generally takes years to develop. Has Peyton made them better? Sure he has. He's a great QB, they make WR better. But these guys have star written all over them. And Thomas has super star written on him. Both of these guys would be legitimate threats on any other team in the league. Lets not tear them down simply to make Manning look better.</p></blockquote><br />Thomas had Potential Star written all over him. He is physically gifted. He showed flashes...as most with that much athletically gifted do but he never blossomed until Peyton showed up. And im not tearing him down one bit. Right now id argue hes a top 5 receiver something that was laughable last year. He has improved his technical part of the game which he himself has directly contributed to his QB.

#260 braveheartcolt

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:10 PM

By the time it was clear Manning would miss the entire season, it was too late for the Colts to go get a quality QB. Maybe they thought Painter was better than he really was, I don't know. But there wasn't much that could be done at that point. They had to ride out the season with what they had.

 

I don't know if you're kidding/trolling me about the bold part, but it's so out there that, in the spirit of diplomacy, I'll just pass on commenting. ;)

 

You think he would have gotten more? Nice job sir!! I like your style.....


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#261 Superman

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:03 PM

Which begs the question, why Collins over Bulger?  We had Peyton and Painter. No other ever needed before. We werent prepared to give up a roster spot for a #3 QB, that was why Dan O. was let go... only to be brought back later, after the failed Collins experiment.

 

 

because Polian knew Collins he was the GM that drafted him he didn't know Bulger.

 

That's not a good reason.

 

I'm not all that excited about Bulger, either, and wasn't at the time. Just saying Collins/Painter wasn't the only option. And Orlovsky couldn't beat Painter out for QB2 in camp, so it's hard to make a big fuss about him. And he technically would have been the 4th quarterback on the roster, since Manning was still on the active roster all season. We probably should have kept Tom Brandstater over Painter in 2010, but it's not like he would have made that big of a difference.


LET'S HUNT

#262 Superman

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:37 PM

last year when we played the titans the announces said we tried to sign Hasselbeck and he turned us down because he thought he would get more playing time with the Titans.

 

Yeah, I remember that. It's a logical assumption, given that Manning had never missed a game. In retrospect, I'm glad he went to the Titans, because he probably would have been able to get us to six or seven wins, at least.

 

Also at the time of the draft everyone expected Peyton to be good to go it was on the eve of the season that they found out just how bad it was with Peyton. We rolled the dice with Collins and Painter and came up snake eyes. It happens. We fired the GM for putting his faith in them and the coach for not realizing we had a better option on the bench in Orlovsky sooner.

 

Everyone had blinders on. And Manning had a secret operation between May and September, so even more than we realized, the front office should have known that he was a long shot to play. Their contingency was Painter and then Collins, and after Painter was horrible in the first two preseason games, they signed Collins. This is before Manning's last operation.

 

I also don't really agree that those are the reasons Polian and Caldwell were fired. I think Polian was fired for having such a thin roster, and he mentioned how talent-deprived the team was in his final Polian Corner. The quarterback situation was just one mistake; there are a dozen others over the last three or four years of his tenure. On top of that, I believe that Irsay wanted his team back, and Polian's control had just grown too much.

 

As for Caldwell, I don't think Orlovsky was anything special. Maybe a little better than Painter and Collins, but the real difference is that they changed the play calling once he took over. They also made adjustments on defense. Everything got really simple and basic in the last six weeks or so of the season. I think Caldwell's firing starts and ends at the fact that we lost the first thirteen games of the season, and he sat back and watched it happen. As much as Irsay wanted to keep him, there's no making up for how inept the coaching was last season.

 

Again, and I know you aren't arguing that we sucked for Luck last year. But in order to do that the players have to buy in. There are guys out of the league that were on the Colts last year. I am supposed to believe they lost on purpose so they would lose their job and a shot at their dream just so the Colts could get Luck? Don't buy it. We have 37 new players from last year. Only Brown, Wayne, and Castonzo returned as starters from last years offense. That is a fairly major over haul. It's not like they just switched out the QB and moved on with the same team from last year. They over hauled the roster to get more talent.

 

Absolutely.

 

Considering all the fallout from last season, a decision to Suck for Luck would have come from Irsay. And I'm just not buying that.


LET'S HUNT

#263 braveheartcolt

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

Yeah, I remember that. It's a logical assumption, given that Manning had never missed a game. In retrospect, I'm glad he went to the Titans, because he probably would have been able to get us to six or seven wins, at least.

 

 

Everyone had blinders on. And Manning had a secret operation between May and September, so even more than we realized, the front office should have known that he was a long shot to play. Their contingency was Painter and then Collins, and after Painter was horrible in the first two preseason games, they signed Collins. This is before Manning's last operation.

 

I also don't really agree that those are the reasons Polian and Caldwell were fired. I think Polian was fired for having such a thin roster, and he mentioned how talent-deprived the team was in his final Polian Corner. The quarterback situation was just one mistake; there are a dozen others over the last three or four years of his tenure. On top of that, I believe that Irsay wanted his team back, and Polian's control had just grown too much.

 

As for Caldwell, I don't think Orlovsky was anything special. Maybe a little better than Painter and Collins, but the real difference is that they changed the play calling once he took over. They also made adjustments on defense. Everything got really simple and basic in the last six weeks or so of the season. I think Caldwell's firing starts and ends at the fact that we lost the first thirteen games of the season, and he sat back and watched it happen. As much as Irsay wanted to keep him, there's no making up for how inept the coaching was last season.

 

 

Absolutely.

 

Considering all the fallout from last season, a decision to Suck for Luck would have come from Irsay. And I'm just not buying that.

 But now I bet most folk are REALLY glad we did suck so bad, and we did get Luck. I certainly am one of those....


"If I make a comment and it is not backed up by factual evidence, take it as my opinion, and my opinion only"....

#264 ColtsBlueFL

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:45 PM

Not a complete list... I got tired -

Record swings in NFL:

Colts-

1974 NFL AFC East 2 12
1975 NFL AFC East 10 4

1991 NFL AFC East 1 15
1992 NFL AFC East 9 7

1998 NFL AFC East 3 13
1999 NFL AFC East 13 3

2010 NFL AFC South 10 6
2011 NFL AFC South 2 14
2012 NFL AFC South 11 5


49ers-

1998 NFL NFC West 12 4
1999 NFL NFC West 4 12


Saints-

1999 NFL NFC West 3 13
2000 NFL NFC West 10 6

2005 NFL NFC South 3 13
2006 NFL NFC South 10 6


Falcons-

2007 NFL NFC South 4 12
2008 NFL NFC South 11 5


Lions-

1954 NFL Western 9 2 1
1955 NFL Western 3 9
1956 NFL Western 9 3

1979 NFL NFC Cent 2 14
1980 NFL NFC Cent 9 7

2011 NFL NFC North 10 6
2012 NFL NFC North 4 12


Packers-

1988 NFL NFC Cent 4 12
1989 NFL NFC Cent 10 6


2004 NFL NFC North 10 6
2005 NFL NFC North 4 12

Rams-

1998 NFL NFC West 4 12
1999 NFL NFC West 13 3


Vikings-

2011 NFL NFC North 3 13
2012 NFL NFC North 10 6

“There’s no question he’s (Luck) a complete football player and one of the top quarterbacks in this league already. He has a great career in front of him but I think he’s already established himself as a very poised and talented player that can do a lot of things to beat you and he manages his team well and plays good situational football.”       -New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick

 


#265 A GM

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:18 AM

I am not going to redraft my points as I already made them in several posts in response to this question . . . I will just point to my post #216 supra . . . and that a 2-14 is not one that is coming off one of the great runs in history . . .

Teams are a collection of 53 players, 22+ which start on O, D and ST, and it takes talent to be good . . . indeed you seen your own team grow under Manning, starting in 1998 and having some good years and bad years till 2003, with some key additions and were off and running . . . well the reverse is true and history (based on the team cited in my post 216) don't fall down to the worst team in the league in one year, much less than 2 years removed from one of best years we seen from a team at 14-0 . . . just as with all great team, which the colts are one, its takes time for them to peter out, you need to lose those great players one by one and then you can get to the bottom of the league . . .

I would add one point that a typical 2-14 does not race out to a 0-13 start, secure the #1 pick and then win two games against division rivals and then walk into the sunset with the #1 overall pick . . . indeed if they had the pedigree to beat two playoff teams after they secured the pick, they had the talent to win earlier in the season . . .

also, as 2-14 teams go, they stay 2-14 the next season, well at least, stay south of say 6 wins, the colts won 11 wins . . . so on both sides of the 2-14 season the colts have done something that has not happen in at least the last 40 years of football and not only have it once, but twice . . .

 

 

Too many fallacies. Wow

 

 

- They didn't lose games until they secured the top pick and then win 2. The top pick was still in play all the way until the last week of the season. We had the same record as the Rams, and the Vikings went 3-13. What you're saying is an outright lie, no matter how many times you repeat it.

 

- You should also stop trying to compare the 2010/2011 rosters to this season, as this is essentially a different organization, top to bottom. 17 players, 2 coaches and 1 front office employee are all that is left from last years team, so your point about the 3 year flux in win totals (10, 2 and 11) holds very little wait, considering.

 

And none of you will touch my point about the Chiefs roster this season being significantly more talented than our roster last year, yet no one is crying that they tanked for the top pick. Interesting


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