Luck snubbed for Pro Bowl in favour of Schaub.

[rdskns4eva]

Ok, I'm back...   

 

From a Houston talking head.....   John McClain....    "With M Schaub in the lineup going back 3 1/2 games SCHAUB has led Houston to 2 TD's."      All Pro?

 

here is the interview....

http://www.1070thefan.com/podcast/Episodes.aspx?PID=2161

No one said that Schaub is an all pro.  But he is pro bowl worthy.  Those are 2 differnt things.

 

Reggie Wayne isa Pro Bowl WR

Megatron is an all pro WR's

 

Frank Gore is a pro Bowl running back

Adrian Peterson is an all pro running back

 

Matt Schaub is a pro bowl QB

Peyton Manning is an all pro QB

[jvan1973]

No i up the fact that people bring up the fools gold 2-14 team you had last year. If Peyton plays you win 10+ games. If you had a decent backup you would have won 6-7 games. People use last years 2-14 team as an argument to why Luck is so great because he flipped the Colts from worst to first. When by far what RG3 is doing in Washington taking a 20 year bottom feeder and making them relivent is more incredible.

Its clear you have no idea what you're taking about.. Let me help you. The colts were 2-14 last year. They fired the entire coaching staff, cut more than half the team, are drowning in dead money and have several rookies and league cast offs starting this year... The redskins have a much better supporting cast than the colts do, oh and have more wins as well. For the record i don't think Andrew should be in the pro bowl.. But neither does Bob

[ColtsBlueFL]

No one said that Schaub is an all pro.  But he is pro bowl worthy.  Those are 2 differnt things.

 

Reggie Wayne isa Pro Bowl WR

Megatron is an all pro WR's

 

Frank Gore is a pro Bowl running back

Adrian Peterson is an all pro running back

 

Matt Schaub is a pro bowl QB

Peyton Manning is an all pro QB

Andrew Luck is a Pro Bowl Quarterback.

Tom Brady is an All Pro Quarterback.

 

{You'll see.... and more in time... ;)  }

[Malakai432]

Its clear you have no idea what you're taking about.. Let me help you. The colts were 2-14 last year. They fired the entire coaching staff, cut more than half the team, are drowning in dead money and have several rookies and league cast offs starting this year... The redskins have a much better supporting cast than the colts do, oh and have more wins as well. For the record i don't think Andrew should be in the pro bowl.. But neither does Bob

Yeah I've seen that a argument brought up a couple times by some of the, well, let's just say less bright skins posters on this forum .

He's contradicting himself by saying if we had Peyton, Colts would have 10+ wins and that the Colts were a terrible team last year because of poor QB play. However if they beat the Texans, Colts will have 10 wins so he's practically shooting himself in the foot saying Luck has done the same thing as Manning !!! Yeah pretty unimpressive right?

As a matter of fact with this new system, scheme and this terrible OL, no one knows how Manning would do but I sure as heck couldn't see 13 wins. He'll get to 13 with a far superior team.

I would say 9-10 wins that is if Peyton could survive. I don't know if I would've wanted to see Manning behind this line, fortunately Lucks big body can take a beating that would significantly exceed the likes of Manning.

[rdskns4eva]

Its clear you have no idea what you're taking about.. Let me help you. The colts were 2-14 last year. They fired the entire coaching staff, cut more than half the team, are drowning in dead money and have several rookies and league cast offs starting this year... The redskins have a much better supporting cast than the colts do, oh and have more wins as well. For the record i don't think Andrew should be in the pro bowl.. But neither does Bob

The Redskins lost 18million in cap space with another 18 mil to go next year.  We've had to build a roster with less resources than other teams in the NFL.  And will have to do so again next year.  All because of an * owner in NY.

 

Ohh and Bob has stats worthy of the pro bowl.  I dont understand why this is so hard to see.  He was top 5 in ESPN QBR (leaving out Kapernick since he's hasnt even played 5 games) and number two in QB Rating behind Rogers.

[Luck2Wayne12]

The Redskins and Seahawks have better coaching, honestly.

 

The Redskins, in particular, have such a strong running game primarily because of the freedom Kyle Shanahan gives RG3. Just watch the games.

 

I've seen 4-5 Redskins game this year; and when the Redskins call a running play, RG3 still has to read defenses. He has three options on 30-40% of the Redskins running plays: 

 

1. Hand the ball off as normal

2. Keep the ball if the defense over commits to the RB

3. Throw a quick strike down the middle of the field to an open WR where a LB vacated to commit to the run.

 

RG3 is effectively tasked with reading the defense on passing plays AND running plays. Which leads to him often burning defenses one way or another. RG3 also has probably the best play action fake in the NFL.

 

When the we run the football, Luck just drops back and hands the ball off. It's not hard for defenses to contain that as much. It comes down to coaching.

[Gavin]

The Redskins lost 18million in cap space with another 18 mil to go next year.  We've had to build a roster with less resources than other teams in the NFL.  And will have to do so again next year.  All because of an * owner in NY.

 

Ohh and Bob has stats worthy of the pro bowl.  I dont understand why this is so hard to see.  He was top 5 in ESPN QBR (leaving out Kapernick since he's hasnt even played 5 games) and number two in QB Rating behind Rogers.

QBR is your best argument? Colts also had major cap issues here, Hey like I been saying Griffin looked great for a rookie, I like him alot, but Pro Bowl? C'mon Man!

[Malakai432]

QBR is your best argument? Colts also had major cap issues here, Hey like I been saying Griffin looked great for a rookie, I like him alot, but Pro Bowl? C'mon Man!

 

 

I wouldn't act however like the Pro Bowl though is a big deal, heck Luck is an alternate so if either Manning, Schuab or Brady make it to the super bowl we will still see Luck there, that is if I even watch it.  I can't even remember the last time I actually watched the pro bowl !

[rdskns4eva]

QBR is your best argument? Colts also had major cap issues here, Hey like I been saying Griffin looked great for a rookie, I like him alot, but Pro Bowl? C'mon Man!

QBR is a valid argument.  For 5 weeks when Luck was like #4 in QBR, all I ever heard on this board and from the media was how great Luck was because of his QBR (ESPN).  Now that RG3 is is top 5 all of a sudden is not valid?  C'mon, thats extremely selective.

[reality]

QBR is your best argument? Colts also had major cap issues here, Hey like I been saying Griffin looked great for a rookie, I like him alot, but Pro Bowl? C'mon Man!

 

ARE YOU INSANE?

 

Seriously.  This post is so absurd that I actually felt the need as a casual Redskins fan linked here by a friend to register and post..  This is not an RG3 vs Luck for ROTY award thread so I'm not going to drop a ton of stats on you (rates of TDs or INTs relative to number of attempts, which everyone here seems to be missing), however, you have decided "Colts had major cap issues here" similar to the Redskins, when that is just completely, utterly, irresponsibly false.

 

REALLY?

 

Now, let me say first and foremost, I don't particularly care for the Schaub pick for the Pro Bowl.  That said, since this thread has already devolved into yet another RG3 vs Luck thread, I'm not going to delve into who was more deserving and who is a snub.  However, I really must take issue with the proposition that the Colts have had "major cap issues" somehow similar to those of the Redskins.

 

When you are penalized 18 million per year for two years, arbitrarily, by the owner of the Texans, please come back and tell us about how your cap situation is a mess.  Until then, recognize that the Redskins are operating at a budget that is 15% less than that of every other NFL team except the Cowboys, and that money has furthermore been used to bolster the rosters of every other team in the NFL.

 

I'm not delving into QBR and statistical arguments because RG3 absolutely annihilates Luck in every single statistical category, but seriously, CAP ISSUES?  Stop.  Just stop.

[reality]

Furthermore, just as an addendum, since everyone else seems to be going there:

 

Arguments of "herpderp Luck has been asked to do 1000x more than RG3 in his real PRO STYLE OFFENSE!!!!!" are absurd.

 

RG3 has been lighting up the league in his offensive scheme.  Guess what?  His scheme is succeeding IN THE NFL, and has been so successful that not only has he not seen a statistical drop all season, other teams have started to adopt his "college-style offense".

 

Guess what dumbies?  WHEN AN OFFENSIVE SYSTEM IS WORKING IN THE NFL FOR A SUBSTANTIAL PERIOD OF TIME, IT IS BY DEFINITION A PRO-STYLE OFFENSE!

 

Do you think if it were an ephemeral fad that teams as good as the 49ers and Seahawks would have adopted pages out of the lowly Redskins playbook for their playoff runs?  Quit it with the "derp derp derp our QB has so much more expected of him, your QB runs a gimmick offense!"  It's simply not true.  The NFL is evolving, and it's plain to see.  The only people who don't see that are the people who dismiss 700+ rushing yards from a QB as insignificant or somehow mundane.

 

Please.

[GoColts8818]

Pretty sure that wins are a team stat, not a QB stat.

At least, that's what Colt fans said for YEARS when one QB consistently won more than another QB.

it is but I also don't recall colts fans saying brady wasnt worthy of the pro bowl because of that either.

[trueblueblood]

Fixed that for ya.

Any one of the cardinals qbs could have great numbers if they had a good d and the leagues best rushing attack... Heck even i could make some of the throws rg3 has made. No one around the receiver for 10 yards? Come on man.

[la_nfl_fan]

Jeff Saturday made the pro bowl, does that mean he's elite? Lol I'm failing to understand why anyone would think rg3 is an elite qb. He's not even close. Cam Newton was a pro bowler last year so he's elite? The only reason rg3 made it on the original roster is the national sports media is infatuated with him.

 

Cam was a Pro Bowl alternate last year. As far as national sports media bias that goes to the AP NFL awards far more than the Pro Bowl.

 

The Pro Bowl selection system is less flawed than AP's OROY and NFL MVP voting system. While it is true 1/3 of Pro Bowl voting comes from fans, 2/3 comes from players and coaches. The OROY of the year award and NFL MVP award are based on single votes of 50 voters who the AP selects as voters. Unlike the Heisman where voters select 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place, OROY and MVP only get a single vote.

 

Also the same voters who vote for OROY also vote for NFL MVP. Since they only can pick 1 name for each category, it is very unlikely for a voter to pick the same name for OROY/DROY and MVP or comeback player of year. AP's NFL award voting system is far more broken than the Pro Bowl selection system.

 

There is a subjective bias involved either by the media voters for the AP awards or by the players/coaches fans for the Pro Bowl, but the Pro Bowl voting is a far more vast system with actual NFL players and Coaches voting.

 

Here are a couple of articles from previous years that discuss the AP voting flaws:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/28/ap-explains-voting-process-for-nfl-awards/

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/7723/looking-inside-year-end-award-process

 

Regardless, these awards will not determine who is better than the other, but if Colts fans are honest with themselves, they will acknowledge that they want RG3 to fare worse than Luck as to avoid an NFL version of the Sam Bowie/ Michael Jordan draft. The INT ratio and 55% completion percentage Luck has are huge red flags.

 

RG3 has already arrived. Whether or not Luck becomes the next Peyton or Mark Sanchez is yet to be determined. He definitely has the skills, but has not shown much improvement since his junior year when Harbaugh jumped ship and seems to have regressed in recent weeks. I blame the Colts scheme. You have a 70% passer with an 8 yard per carry average his junior year now standing behind a bad o-line getting skittish and being forced into a scheme that doesn't maximize his skills . He would fare far better in Shanahan's, Harbaugh's, Carroll's or Bellichick's schemes.

[InTheKnow]

Any one of the cardinals qbs could have great numbers if they had a good d and the leagues best rushing attack... Heck even i could make some of the throws rg3 has made. No one around the receiver for 10 yards? Come on man.

John Beck and Rex Grossman couldn't, 

[jvan1973]

The Redskins lost 18million in cap space with another 18 mil to go next year. We've had to build a roster with less resources than other teams in the NFL. And will have to do so again next year. All because of an * owner in NY.

Ohh and Bob has stats worthy of the pro bowl. I dont understand why this is so hard to see. He was top 5 in ESPN QBR (leaving out Kapernick since he's hasnt even played 5 games) and number two in QB Rating behind Rogers.

18 million.. That's cute. The colts have 38 million in dead money THIS SEASON.. For you that aren't good at math, thats 20 million more than the skins have.

[dw49]

POP WARNER...lol... They run Shanahans offense from the Pistol its the same offense John Elway and Jay Cutler ran except from the pistol....which by the way Big Ben and the Steelers have been using the Pistol for the last like 3 years. How come I only hear that when people are talking RG3? You know The 49ers with Kaepernick and the Seahawks with R. Wilson are running the same offense. The NFL is evolving the Patriots run the spread offense. It's not a gimmick like the wildcat. The only gimmick the skins were using was the triple option and they have barely run it the second half of the season. They use it like a trick play like a team would run a reverse.

 

 

POP WARNER...lol... They run Shanahans offense from the Pistol its the same offense John Elway and Jay Cutler ran except from the pistol....which by the way Big Ben and the Steelers have been using the Pistol for the last like 3 years. How come I only hear that when people are talking RG3? You know The 49ers with Kaepernick and the Seahawks with R. Wilson are running the same offense. The NFL is evolving the Patriots run the spread offense. It's not a gimmick like the wildcat. The only gimmick the skins were using was the triple option and they have barely run it the second half of the season. They use it like a trick play like a team would run a reverse.

 

 

 

 

 

That is a huge stretch even insinuating that this is the same offense Elway ran in 1995-1998. The pistol was first devised in 2005 and then later adapted in the NFL. It's basic premise is the defense has to stack the LOS to account for the QB running the ball. RG ran for around 750 yards in his first 14 games until he injured the knee. John Elway averaged less than 200 yards per season when Shanahan coached Denver. The foundation coud be said to be the same as the zone blocking scheme is essetial in both but this is by no means the same scheme that John Elway ran with Denver. Similar but not the same. I watched football back then and Denver did not have receivers running wide open down the middle of the field becuse teams feared him running. This does lead to RG3 throwing for a high completion % and few ints. However , time will tell just how smart this all is. With the nasty hits RG3 takes in this offense you have to wonder the obvious things (injuries and other teams adapting) , plus in a few years will he still be running a 4.35 40 ? 

[thecardiacrll]

 

 

 

The Pistol is a formation not an offense....The WR our still running Shanahans route tree the progressions our still the same...And the running game is the exact same ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME the only difference is RG3 is in the pistol instead of under center. He makes all the reads its not a firs read offense most on here think. If the first option is wide open why the hell wouldnt you throw to it? The only gimmicky thing they run is triple option and since the concussion they have maybe one it once a game sometimes none. They only ran the zone read option like 3 times in the past  games. So its not a stretch he is running the same exact offense as Elway. 

[Matugi]

The Redskins and Seahawks have better coaching, honestly.

 

The Redskins, in particular, have such a strong running game primarily because of the freedom Kyle Shanahan gives RG3. Just watch the games.

 

I've seen 4-5 Redskins game this year; and when the Redskins call a running play, RG3 still has to read defenses. He has three options on 30-40% of the Redskins running plays: 

 

1. Hand the ball off as normal

2. Keep the ball if the defense over commits to the RB

3. Throw a quick strike down the middle of the field to an open WR where a LB vacated to commit to the run.

 

RG3 is effectively tasked with reading the defense on passing plays AND running plays. Which leads to him often burning defenses one way or another. RG3 also has probably the best play action fake in the NFL.

 

When the we run the football, Luck just drops back and hands the ball off. It's not hard for defenses to contain that as much. It comes down to coaching.

You can actually thank Art Briles for that play-action fake. He's been doing it since college, and Nick Florence has a similar fake. I was watching something on NFL Network where they said that defenses will more likely buy on the fake if the quarterback has his hands on top of the football than on bottom, because it looks more like a running play when it's on top. RG3 uses both hands and sticks it right in the gut and holds it for nearly a second, which is why defenses over commit so often. It's a thing of beauty.

[braveheartcolt]

The Redskins and Seahawks have better coaching, honestly.

 

The Redskins, in particular, have such a strong running game primarily because of the freedom Kyle Shanahan gives RG3. Just watch the games.

 

I've seen 4-5 Redskins game this year; and when the Redskins call a running play, RG3 still has to read defenses. He has three options on 30-40% of the Redskins running plays: 

 

1. Hand the ball off as normal

2. Keep the ball if the defense over commits to the RB

3. Throw a quick strike down the middle of the field to an open WR where a LB vacated to commit to the run.

 

RG3 is effectively tasked with reading the defense on passing plays AND running plays. Which leads to him often burning defenses one way or another. RG3 also has probably the best play action fake in the NFL.

 

When the we run the football, Luck just drops back and hands the ball off. It's not hard for defenses to contain that as much. It comes down to coaching.

 

Why are you using 'we' when talking about the Colts? You think your user name is fooling anyone?

[dw49]

The Pistol is a formation not an offense....The WR our still running Shanahans route tree the progressions our still the same...And the running game is the exact same ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME the only difference is RG3 is in the pistol instead of under center. He makes all the reads its not a firs read offense most on here think. If the first option is wide open why the hell wouldnt you throw to it? The only gimmicky thing they run is triple option and since the concussion they have maybe one it once a game sometimes none. They only ran the zone read option like 3 times in the past  games. So its not a stretch he is running the same exact offense as Elway. 

 

 

 

The pistol as we see it being run today calls for a QB that is a threat to be like another running back. The most difficult aspect to defending the pistol , as it is called , is the defense has it's LB's close to the line of scrimmage to defend against the run. Find me a team running the pistol withoiut a running QB .

[thecardiacrll]

The pistol as we see it being run today calls for a QB that is a threat to be like another running back. The most difficult aspect to defending the pistol , as it is called , is the defense has it's LB's close to the line of scrimmage to defend against the run. Find me a team running the pistol withoiut a running QB .

Thats easy the detroit lions with Matthew Stafford has run it the past 2 weeks.

[reality]

18 million.. That's cute. The colts have 38 million in dead money THIS SEASON.. For you that aren't good at math, thats 20 million more than the skins have.

 

 

What?

 

Seriously.  This post is so absurd that I actually felt the need as a casual Redskins fan linked here by a friend to register and post.  This is not an RG3 vs Luck for ROTY award thread so I'm not going to drop a ton of stats on you (rates of TDs or INTs relative to number of attempts, which everyone here seems to be missing), and I know that it's somewhat OT, however, you have decided "Colts had major cap issues here" similar to the Redskins, when that is just completely, utterly, irresponsibly false.

 

Now, let me say first and foremost, I don't particularly care for the Schaub pick for the Pro Bowl.  That said, since this thread has already devolved into yet another RG3 vs Luck thread, I'm not going to delve into who was more deserving and who is a snub.  However, I really must take issue with the proposition that the Colts have had "major cap issues" somehow similar to those of the Redskins.  It's your own team's fault for handing out bad contracts to players, creating your so-called "dead money".  However, EVERY team has those problems.  It does enter the discussion when you're talking about who played better than who.  Everyone has ~120 million in cap space per year so spend as they so choose on a rolling basis.  Well, everyone except the Redskins and Cowboys, that is.  Which brings me to the following:

 

When you are penalized 18 million per year for two years, arbitrarily, by the owner of a division rival, please come back and tell us about how your cap situation is a mess.  Until then, recognize that the Redskins are operating at a budget that is 15% less than that of every other NFL team except the Cowboys, and that money has furthermore been used to bolster the rosters of every other team in the NFL.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a421db/article/available-salarycap-space-for-all-32-nfl-teams

 

That link provides you with the total amount of spending each team could do before the season.  It takes into account the cap penalties imposed on the Redskins, who after that subtraction has a shade over 6 million in cap space remaining.  That means that 75% of the Redskins available salary cap space to spend on free agency and signing our own players was arbitrarily snatched away by a scumbag owner of a division rival's team.  When that happens to the Colts, we can talk about cap issues.

 

I'm not delving into QBR and statistical arguments because RG3 absolutely annihilates Luck in every single statistical category, but seriously, CAP ISSUES?  Stop.  Just stop.

[trueblueblood]

Cam was a Pro Bowl alternate last year. As far as national sports media bias that goes to the AP NFL awards far more than the Pro Bowl.

The Pro Bowl selection system is less flawed than AP's OROY and NFL MVP voting system. While it is true 1/3 of Pro Bowl voting comes from fans, 2/3 comes from players and coaches. The OROY of the year award and NFL MVP award are based on single votes of 50 voters who the AP selects as voters. Unlike the Heisman where voters select 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place, OROY and MVP only get a single vote.

Also the same voters who vote for OROY also vote for NFL MVP. Since they only can pick 1 name for each category, it is very unlikely for a voter to pick the same name for OROY/DROY and MVP or comeback player of year. AP's NFL award voting system is far more broken than the Pro Bowl selection system.

There is a subjective bias involved either by the media voters for the AP awards or by the players/coaches fans for the Pro Bowl, but the Pro Bowl voting is a far more vast system with actual NFL players and Coaches voting.

Here are a couple of articles from previous years that discuss the AP voting flaws:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/28/ap-explains-voting-process-for-nfl-awards/

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/7723/looking-inside-year-end-award-process

Regardless, these awards will not determine who is better than the other, but if Colts fans are honest with themselves, they will acknowledge that they want RG3 to fare worse than Luck as to avoid an NFL version of the Sam Bowie/ Michael Jordan draft. The INT ratio and 55% completion percentage Luck has are huge red flags.

RG3 has already arrived. Whether or not Luck becomes the next Peyton or Mark Sanchez is yet to be determined. He definitely has the skills, but has not shown much improvement since his junior year when Harbaugh jumped ship and seems to have regressed in recent weeks. I blame the Colts scheme. You have a 70% passer with an 8 yard per carry average his junior year now standing behind a bad o-line getting skittish and being forced into a scheme that doesn't maximize his skills . He would fare far better in Shanahan's, Harbaugh's, Carroll's or Bellichick's schemes.

You're right, rg3 has been impressive for the skins this year... And so has Kirk cousins. Maybe the skins don't start out 3 and 6 with cousins at qb.

[Qwiz]

You're right, rg3 has been impressive for the skins this year... And so has Kirk cousins. Maybe the skins don't start out 3 and 6 with cousins at qb.

Cousins played against the Browns. Besides, Griffin now has his team in playoff contention. You're starting to run out of ways to fault Griffin, and it's obvious.

[braveheartcolt]

Cousins played against the Browns. Besides, Griffin now has his team in playoff contention. You're starting to run out of ways to fault Griffin, and it's obvious.

 

Out of interest Quiz, do you log onto any Redskins forums and praise Griffin to the rafters, or do you just do it on here? 

[braveheartcolt]

What?

 

Seriously.  This post is so absurd that I actually felt the need as a casual Redskins fan linked here by a friend to register and post.  This is not an RG3 vs Luck for ROTY award thread so I'm not going to drop a ton of stats on you (rates of TDs or INTs relative to number of attempts, which everyone here seems to be missing), and I know that it's somewhat OT, however, you have decided "Colts had major cap issues here" similar to the Redskins, when that is just completely, utterly, irresponsibly false.

 

Now, let me say first and foremost, I don't particularly care for the Schaub pick for the Pro Bowl.  That said, since this thread has already devolved into yet another RG3 vs Luck thread, I'm not going to delve into who was more deserving and who is a snub.  However, I really must take issue with the proposition that the Colts have had "major cap issues" somehow similar to those of the Redskins.  It's your own team's fault for handing out bad contracts to players, creating your so-called "dead money".  However, EVERY team has those problems.  It does enter the discussion when you're talking about who played better than who.  Everyone has ~120 million in cap space per year so spend as they so choose on a rolling basis.  Well, everyone except the Redskins and Cowboys, that is.  Which brings me to the following:

 

When you are penalized 18 million per year for two years, arbitrarily, by the owner of a division rival, please come back and tell us about how your cap situation is a mess.  Until then, recognize that the Redskins are operating at a budget that is 15% less than that of every other NFL team except the Cowboys, and that money has furthermore been used to bolster the rosters of every other team in the NFL.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a421db/article/available-salarycap-space-for-all-32-nfl-teams

 

That link provides you with the total amount of spending each team could do before the season.  It takes into account the cap penalties imposed on the Redskins, who after that subtraction has a shade over 6 million in cap space remaining.  That means that 75% of the Redskins available salary cap space to spend on free agency and signing our own players was arbitrarily snatched away by a scumbag owner of a division rival's team.  When that happens to the Colts, we can talk about cap issues.

 

I'm not delving into QBR and statistical arguments because RG3 absolutely annihilates Luck in every single statistical category, but seriously, CAP ISSUES?  Stop.  Just stop.

 

Who's your friend?

[Gavin]

QBR is a valid argument.  For 5 weeks when Luck was like #4 in QBR, all I ever heard on this board and from the media was how great Luck was because of his QBR (ESPN).  Now that RG3 is is top 5 all of a sudden is not valid?  C'mon, thats extremely selective.

Your lumping me into that argument that thought Luck was doing good because he had a high QBR for a few weeks, Personally I think QBR is just a fancy yet pointless stat that has absolutely credible meaning, QBR says certain plays are better than others without having a definition of what those plays are. Personally if I wanna make an argument of how good or bad someone has been, I try to use completion percentage and the overall eye test (such as did he hold the ball to long, should he have taken the checkdown, did he stare down his receiver, if no one was open did he throw the ball away, if no one is open on a 3rd and short and here is open field did he run and slide for the first down, when did he get most of his passing yards, what it in the 1 quarter or 4th, when did he fumble the ball if he fumbled, I can go on), I dont believe QBR is very accurate, never have.

[Gavin]

What?

 

Seriously.  This post is so absurd that I actually felt the need as a casual Redskins fan linked here by a friend to register and post.  This is not an RG3 vs Luck for ROTY award thread so I'm not going to drop a ton of stats on you (rates of TDs or INTs relative to number of attempts, which everyone here seems to be missing), and I know that it's somewhat OT, however, you have decided "Colts had major cap issues here" similar to the Redskins, when that is just completely, utterly, irresponsibly false.

 

Now, let me say first and foremost, I don't particularly care for the Schaub pick for the Pro Bowl.  That said, since this thread has already devolved into yet another RG3 vs Luck thread, I'm not going to delve into who was more deserving and who is a snub.  However, I really must take issue with the proposition that the Colts have had "major cap issues" somehow similar to those of the Redskins.  It's your own team's fault for handing out bad contracts to players, creating your so-called "dead money".  However, EVERY team has those problems.  It does enter the discussion when you're talking about who played better than who.  Everyone has ~120 million in cap space per year so spend as they so choose on a rolling basis.  Well, everyone except the Redskins and Cowboys, that is.  Which brings me to the following:

 

When you are penalized 18 million per year for two years, arbitrarily, by the owner of a division rival, please come back and tell us about how your cap situation is a mess.  Until then, recognize that the Redskins are operating at a budget that is 15% less than that of every other NFL team except the Cowboys, and that money has furthermore been used to bolster the rosters of every other team in the NFL.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a421db/article/available-salarycap-space-for-all-32-nfl-teams

 

That link provides you with the total amount of spending each team could do before the season.  It takes into account the cap penalties imposed on the Redskins, who after that subtraction has a shade over 6 million in cap space remaining.  That means that 75% of the Redskins available salary cap space to spend on free agency and signing our own players was arbitrarily snatched away by a scumbag owner of a division rival's team.  When that happens to the Colts, we can talk about cap issues.

 

I'm not delving into QBR and statistical arguments because RG3 absolutely annihilates Luck in every single statistical category, but seriously, CAP ISSUES?  Stop.  Just stop.

[GrizzColt]

It's funny how all of the RG3 loving media types are now predicting the Cowboys to win Sunday.  Their reason?  Because last week RG3 could't run full speed, eeked out a win and now prognosticators are jumping off his bandwagon because they don't trust him standing in the pocket.  Well, duh, that's what we've been saying all year.    

[la_nfl_fan]

You're right, rg3 has been impressive for the skins this year... And so has Kirk cousins. Maybe the skins don't start out 3 and 6 with cousins at qb.

 

If Colts had selected RG3, I think Luck would have thrived in the Shanahan's system. The scheme attacks defenses and puts the QB in a position to succeed and the coaches get the most out of the skills of the QB running it. I didn't expect RG3 to have the type of year he has had in year 1, but I would have expected it from Luck given what he did at Stanford, particularly his junior year.

 

I know you guy are ecstatic about Arians and your record, but I think the NFL is entering a new era of offense and Luck has the skills to thrive in it and the system they are running doesn't get the most out of the investment and they are running a classic vertical game without a great o-line and running game. I think it puts too much pressure on the kid with a lot of missing pieces.

 

If Arians ends up with a HC job this off season, I think it would be a genius move to bring in Chris Ault from Nevada as OC for the Colts. Having a system that forces defenses to account for a dual threat from the QB on every play makes it a 11 on 11 game instead of 10 against 11 which most D schemes are based. Most importantly it pretty much negates the DE/OLB on most plays from the pistol. Not having to deal with players like JJ Watt with a premiere OT but with play design instead is priceless.

[Qwiz]

Out of interest Quiz, do you log onto any Redskins forums and praise Griffin to the rafters, or do you just do it on here?

I'm sure there's no absurd and ignorant statements and misconceptions about 12 and certainly not Griffin on their forums that I feel the need to reply to, so no.

[Gavin]

What?

 

Seriously.  This post is so absurd that I actually felt the need as a casual Redskins fan linked here by a friend to register and post.  This is not an RG3 vs Luck for ROTY award thread so I'm not going to drop a ton of stats on you (rates of TDs or INTs relative to number of attempts, which everyone here seems to be missing), and I know that it's somewhat OT, however, you have decided "Colts had major cap issues here" similar to the Redskins, when that is just completely, utterly, irresponsibly false.

 

Now, let me say first and foremost, I don't particularly care for the Schaub pick for the Pro Bowl.  That said, since this thread has already devolved into yet another RG3 vs Luck thread, I'm not going to delve into who was more deserving and who is a snub.  However, I really must take issue with the proposition that the Colts have had "major cap issues" somehow similar to those of the Redskins.  It's your own team's fault for handing out bad contracts to players, creating your so-called "dead money".  However, EVERY team has those problems.  It does enter the discussion when you're talking about who played better than who.  Everyone has ~120 million in cap space per year so spend as they so choose on a rolling basis.  Well, everyone except the Redskins and Cowboys, that is.  Which brings me to the following:

 

When you are penalized 18 million per year for two years, arbitrarily, by the owner of a division rival, please come back and tell us about how your cap situation is a mess.  Until then, recognize that the Redskins are operating at a budget that is 15% less than that of every other NFL team except the Cowboys, and that money has furthermore been used to bolster the rosters of every other team in the NFL.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a421db/article/available-salarycap-space-for-all-32-nfl-teams

 

That link provides you with the total amount of spending each team could do before the season.  It takes into account the cap penalties imposed on the Redskins, who after that subtraction has a shade over 6 million in cap space remaining.  That means that 75% of the Redskins available salary cap space to spend on free agency and signing our own players was arbitrarily snatched away by a scumbag owner of a division rival's team.  When that happens to the Colts, we can talk about cap issues.

 

I'm not delving into QBR and statistical arguments because RG3 absolutely annihilates Luck in every single statistical category, but seriously, CAP ISSUES?  Stop.  Just stop.

"not delving into QBR and statistical arguments because RG3 absolutely annihilates Luck in every single statistical category, but seriously, CAP ISSUES?  Stop.  Just stop". Except TD passes, yards passing, Luck only had 1 less rushing TD. Not sure how that is annihilation. Also each team will only get 1.6 million of that cap hit handed out to the Redskins and Cowboys so lets not act like all teams are getting a huge amount, You guys are taking a huge cap hit no doubt but at one point we had less then you guys  . We also had to turn almost our entire roster upside down to get to our current cap situation

[braveheartcolt]

A QB's stats are really all about what his team do for him, from plays and adjustments, to blocking, running, and catching. Ultimately, what I want is a QB who we know we can trust when the game is on the line. I'm happy we have that guy. All the rest is just noise. 

[braveheartcolt]

I'm sure there's no absurd and ignorant statements and misconceptions about 12 and certainly not Griffin on their forums that I feel the need to reply to, so no.

 

Thank you. You have told me all I need to know.....

[reality]

"not delving into QBR and statistical arguments because RG3 absolutely annihilates Luck in every single statistical category, but seriously, CAP ISSUES?  Stop.  Just stop". Except TD passes, yards passing, Luck only had 1 less rushing TD. Not sure how that is annihilation. Also each team will only get 1.6 million of that cap hit handed out to the Redskins and Cowboys so lets not act like all teams are getting a huge amount, You guys are taking a huge cap hit no doubt but at one point we had less then you guys  . We also had to turn almost our entire roster upside down to get to our current cap situation

 

I hear you, but there's a difference between irresponsible spending and bad contracts by a front office (believe me, as a skins fan, we know ALL about that!), and collusion by other owners to strip the 'skins of 15% of the total expenditure limit.  The former every team has to deal with; the latter, only the Redskins and Cowboys.

 

And as a poster so astutely pointed out previously, you keep quoting statistics that are indicative of volume.  They're the product of the sheer amount of passes thrown, NOT how effective those passes are (which, coincidentally, is why I personally don't fault him for the raw total of 18 INTs, because he is chucking it up that much more).  He has more yards than Aaron Rodgers - is he better than him, too?  He has the same passing TDs as Eli - how about him?  But those raw numbers do not tell the whole story, because by virtue of Luck having 17% more passes than either of the aforementioned QBs, he will by necessity have more of whatever passing stat you want to cherry pick.  Let's take it to the extreme: if a coach decided to completely eschew the running game in favor of passing 60 times per game and the player finished the season with 5,000 yards and 25 TDs on 1,000 attempts with a 54% completion rate, it would not be impressive at all, as he accrued those numbers on such a high volume of passes, and would have an underwhelming 5 yards per attempt.  A true overall measure of effectiveness comes from what you can accomplish per attempt, in other words, how much bang for your buck are you getting on a per pass basis?  And that's where the picture becomes far, far clearer.

 

Please refer to Post 222 of this thread for more information.  I will add these conclusions from the numbers:

 

RG3's yards per attempt is 18.4% higher than Luck's, meaning on a given Luck completion of 10 yards, RG3's will go 12.

RG3's TD pass per attempt is 52.1% higher than Luck's, meaning Luck will have to throw over 50% more passes to match RG3's production total (and he has), but will not come near his efficiency.

 

and most damning of all:

 

Luck's INT per attempt is 125% higher than RG3's, meaning he is 2.25 times more likely to throw an interception on a given pass attempt.

 

As I said before, I don't fault Luck for the actual number of pick's that he's thrown per se because he has thrown a lot more ("he is asked to do much more!" they say), but you can draw the conclusion that he is making poor decisions with the football when he is getting picked off at a rate more than twice as high as his contemporaries.  It's not to say that he won't improve because he most assuredly will, however, at the moment it's not close.  Not at all.

 

And just to keep this post on topic, let's apply the same comparison to Matt Schaub, who I would agree doesn't pass the eye test per se when you think of a Pro Bowl QB:

 

Schaub's yards per attempt is 5.3% higher than Luck's

Schaub's TD pass per attempt is 23.5% higher than Luck's

Luck's INT per attempt is 52.5% higher than Schaub's

 

Combine that with Schaub's superior completion percentage (10% higher), and you can see why voters felt the way that they did, and can perhaps feel a little better about this "snub".

 

As you can clearly see from this demonstration, Luck is doing less with the ball on any given attempt than his peers (including Matt Schaub), and that, my friend, is why he did not make the Pro Bowl, and why he shouldn't win Rookie of the Year, either (which has its own threads).

[Malakai432]

What?

Seriously. This post is so absurd that I actually felt the need as a casual Redskins fan linked here by a friend to register and post. This is not an RG3 vs Luck for ROTY award thread so I'm not going to drop a ton of stats on you (rates of TDs or INTs relative to number of attempts, which everyone here seems to be missing), and I know that it's somewhat OT, however, you have decided "Colts had major cap issues here" similar to the Redskins, when that is just completely, utterly, irresponsibly false.

Now, let me say first and foremost, I don't particularly care for the Schaub pick for the Pro Bowl. That said, since this thread has already devolved into yet another RG3 vs Luck thread, I'm not going to delve into who was more deserving and who is a snub. However, I really must take ssue with the proposition that the Colts have had "major cap issues" somehow similar to those of the Redskins. It's your own team's fault for handing out bad contracts to players, creating your so-called "dead money". However, EVERY team has those problems. It does enter the discussion when you're talking about who played better than who. Everyone has ~120 million in cap space per year so spend as they so choose on a rolling basis. Well, everyone except the Redskins and Cowboys, that is. Which brings me to the following:

When you are penalized 18 million per year for two years, arbitrarily, by the owner of a division rival, please come back and tell us about how your cap situation is a mess. Until then, recognize that the Redskins are operating at a budget that is 15% less than that of every other NFL team except the Cowboys, and that money has furthermore been used to bolster the rosters of every other team in the NFL.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a421db/article/available-salarycap-space-for-all-32-nfl-teams

That link provides you with the total amount of spending each team could do before the season. It takes into account the cap penalties imposed on the Redskins, who after that subtraction has a shade over 6 million in cap space remaining. That means that 75% of the Redskins available salary cap space to spend on free agency and signing our own players was arbitrarily snatched away by a scumbag owner of a division rival's team. When that happens to the Colts, we can talk about cap issues.

I'm not delving into QBR and statistical arguments because RG3 absolutely annihilates Luck in every single statistical category, but seriously, CAP ISSUES? Stop. Just stop.

Ohh great, look another skins fan claiming he's casual coming to the Colts forum to bash!!

I haven't heard that one before.

[Malakai432]

This thread is cute...

[GrizzColt]

A little analogy.

Let's say I hire a young teenager to mow my yard and his name is Andrew Luck.  I tell him I am running errands and when I get back I will pay him for mowing my yard.  When I get back and the yard is mowed immaculately, do I care if he missed some spots at first but went back and fixed it before I got back?  No, I don't.  In fact, I notice he mows it just as well as a professional and right now he doesn't charge me as much.  My neighbor in the cove notices and says he has a young man named Bobby who does a good job on his yard and that I should use him because everybody likes him and is really popular in the neighborhood.  I look at his yard and look at mine and I say, "I think my yard looks about 1 game better than yours...why would I change?"  I have this feeling that my guy won't make those mistakes next time and yet will continue to do a great job.  In fact, I believe he's going to get me "Yard of the Month" one day            

[Malakai432]

I'm sure there's no absurd and ignorant statements and misconceptions about 12 and certainly not Griffin on their forums that I feel the need to reply to, so no.

Quiz you are the one that thinks Luck is terrible . Just go with flow of realizing he's had one of the most successful rookie seasons in NFL history and people won't argue with you so much.

You gotta cut the guy some slack he's been hit 111 times because this patchwork, injury riddled OL can't block and he's still had success. I'm sure Arians scheme also factors into it. I don't think Luck likes to hold onto the ball and get pressured every snap because the OL is garbage waiting for long tedious routes to develop.

QB hits allowed. Top 5

1. Colts 111

2. Eagles 111

3. Jags 94

4. Cardinals 93

5. KC 83

And yes I do agree Matt Schuab should've made the pro bowl before Luck. This thread is a moot point because he's an alternate anyway so unless Dalton, Flacco or Luck are in the SB, Luck will be in the PB.