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Does the way Luck holds the ball hinder him in any way


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#1 GoodLuck

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 08:37 AM

Seems odd

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#2 SLILLINGTON10

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 09:55 AM

it's worked for him at stanford and for us so far. read something about his high school coach or something made him hold the ball with two hands like that to avoid getting stripped.
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#3 oldunclemark

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 09:55 AM

no

#4 GoodLuck

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

it's worked for him at stanford and for us so far. read something about his high school coach or something made him hold the ball with two hands like that to avoid getting stripped.


I meant the way his fingers are on the laces.

#5 Gavin

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:36 PM

We talking about as he scrambles or how he throws? If its how he scrambles then the way he does it is better then the Micheal Vick or the way Robert Griffin does it sometimes, hanging there arm down palm on the ball for anyone to bat down who took a notion to do so



#6 Smonroe

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:58 PM

The only thing I see the kid doing wrong is sometimes holding the ball too long. Period. Some want to blame our OC for having too many long pattern throws, especially with our line. I think some of that blame goes to the WRs for not getting space, and some to Andrew for not looking to the mid pattern or checkdown.

On one series yesterday we had three drops, and that's not counting the Fleener miss. Only blame the WRs there.

No, I have no problem with how he carries the ball. Just how long.

#7 John Dee

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:09 PM

When we see him play with a true blue running game and an OL that can actually hold a block for more than a second...

 

Andrew will shine..    he already has but ...      AL's work is not as sexy as Seattle and Wash's QB work is.  

 

Luck has carried a team, Wilson and RG3 have enhanced their teams.   

 

Simple IMO.


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#8 Chicago-Colts Fan1287

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:46 PM

When we see him play with a true blue running game and an OL that can actually hold a block for more than a second...

Andrew will shine.. he already has but ... AL's work is not as sexy as Seattle and Wash's QB work is.

Luck has carried a team, Wilson and RG3 have enhanced their teams.

Simple IMO.

Totally Agree.

#9 FireJimCaldwell

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:55 PM

This was discussed either before or after the draft,

http://forums.colts....things-he-does/

 

and various QB's throw the ball various ways. Bradshaw for example puts his index finger on the tip of the ball, Aikman had a unique grip.


Rivers has a pushing motion almost like a shot put throw, they develop habits for whatever reason. Asking Rivers to change his motion would be like what Manning went through this off season and having to start over. Would it even be worth it.

 

I don't see his grip being an issue. If he were 8 or 10 years old you might try to get him to adjust it, but he's likely been throwing that way for 10+ years.



#10 NewColtsFan

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 09:04 PM

I haven't seen anything in 4 years of watching Luck that gives me any concern about how he holds the ball.

 

Nothing at all.

 

And, as some here in this thread have noted,  it's how long he's willing to hold the ball to try and make something happen.

 

THAT concerns me greatly.   

 

But those are two different things entirely.



#11 TKnight24

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

No Problem over here
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#12 Matugi

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 09:56 PM

This was discussed either before or after the draft,
http://forums.colts....things-he-does/
 
and various QB's throw the ball various ways. Bradshaw for example puts his index finger on the tip of the ball, Aikman had a unique grip.

Rivers has a pushing motion almost like a shot put throw, they develop habits for whatever reason. Asking Rivers to change his motion would be like what Manning went through this off season and having to start over. Would it even be worth it.
 
I don't see his grip being an issue. If he were 8 or 10 years old you might try to get him to adjust it, but he's likely been throwing that way for 10+ years.

Embarrassing how averse to criticism people are in that thread.

As I've mentioned before, I've only noticed two apparent flaws with Luck's mechanics. One is the leg kick at the end of his delivery. It removes a lot of power from his throw because he can't drive his hips through, much like how you get way under the ball or hit fat if you lift your back foot in golf. The other is his inability to alter his arm angle when delivering from an awkward pocket.

#13 GoodLuck

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 10:16 PM

This was discussed either before or after the draft,
http://forums.colts....things-he-does/

and various QB's throw the ball various ways. Bradshaw for example puts his index finger on the tip of the ball, Aikman had a unique grip.

Rivers has a pushing motion almost like a shot put throw, they develop habits for whatever reason. Asking Rivers to change his motion would be like what Manning went through this off season and having to start over. Would it even be worth it.

I don't see his grip being an issue. If he were 8 or 10 years old you might try to get him to adjust it, but he's likely been throwing that way for 10+ years.

Man I started that topic. I honestly dont remember

#14 FireJimCaldwell

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 10:18 PM

Embarrassing how averse to criticism people are in that thread.

As I've mentioned before, I've only noticed two apparent flaws with Luck's mechanics. One is the leg kick at the end of his delivery. It removes a lot of power from his throw because he can't drive his hips through, much like how you get way under the ball or hit fat if you lift your back foot in golf. The other is his inability to alter his arm angle when delivering from an awkward pocket.

Some aren't fond of differing opinions.

 

Those are good points. I feel he's still too stiff(which is inline with you arm angle comment), and not standing as tall as he should which was referenced in that thread. To me he plays shorter than he should. But then again, if you don't fawn blindly, you get ridiculed. 



#15 GrizzColt

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 10:49 PM

I remember he worked with Whitfield, the QB guru, and he remarked that the league is going to have a hard time dealing with Luck because of how special a talent he was. I don't remember him saying luck's arm angle, grip or stance would hold him back. It is laughable. Others have it right when they say it is all about the pitiful offensive line he is asked to perform behind.

#16 Tark The Shark

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 12:00 AM

Luck shouldn't change what he does with how he holds the ball, he just needs to know the right time and place to throw it.

 

Next year, I predict, will be a much better year statistically for Luck.


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#17 ruksak

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 12:03 AM

If you mean 'with two hands', no, that's friggin pro and has been commented on by many. Holding the ball with two hands until the throw is something that many lesser QB's struggle to learn, even over their entire careers. 

 

Our rookie QB came with that feature installed. Awesome. 


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#18 Matugi

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 08:04 AM

I remember he worked with Whitfield, the QB guru, and he remarked that the league is going to have a hard time dealing with Luck because of how special a talent he was. I don't remember him saying luck's arm angle, grip or stance would hold him back. It is laughable. Others have it right when they say it is all about the pitiful offensive line he is asked to perform behind.

Why would a mentor publicly denounce his student's shortcomings?

#19 Balzer40

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:21 AM

I meant the way his fingers are on the laces.

 

 

 

I don't get this. You're supposed to use the laces.


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#20 FireJimCaldwell

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:59 PM

I don't get this. You're supposed to use the laces.

He's talking about his specific grip, it's a little unique.

tumblr_m9d9nk9sWw1r1nnogo1_400.jpg

 

Here is an article about grips:

http://www.nytimes.c...srWVYiciQ4R 22g

 

Eli Manning's for example
SPIRAL-articleLarge.jpg

Which is a bit more prototypical.

 


Aikman would have the laces in the palm of his hand

Troy%20Aikman%208x10_310.JPG

 

You see Bradshaw with the index finger a bit more on the tip of the ball.

Terry-Bradshaw1.jpg

 

To me each QB develops a grip that feels more comfortable to them or what they get used to.  I've tried throwing the ball like Bradshaw does and it's all over the place...  If I were showing a 5 year old how to throw the ball, out of these grips I would show the kid Eli's grip compared to the others...



#21 The Fish

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:28 PM

I'll "throw" my two cents in here, because I like ergonomics, posture, delivery, mechanical stuff to do with the body. As a drummer, how you deliver the stick to the surface is critical to the end sound. 2/3 of playing any instrument is mechanical and a motion that has to be trained. Throwing is the same.

The way a QB torque's for maximum velocity is different than he set's for accuracy. I don't see Luck as being fundamentally un-sound to the extent that he's not going to fix it ie Tebow. He is having issues with delivery and it's a posture issue, namely he expects to get hit on every throw. His habit is to get rid of the ball high, and hope it hits 20 yards down the field. If the system didn't ask that of him, his number's would be better, though I don't see this team rallying to win against some of the better teams ifthey didn't have the down field game plan.

How Luck holds the ball isn't really that important. His hips, and feet tell the story on the high throws.

How often do we get to see Luck take a 3 step drop and throw a hard direct line pass? It doesn't happen often.
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#22 John Dee

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

I'll "throw" my two cents in here, because I like ergonomics, posture, delivery, mechanical stuff to do with the body. As a drummer, how you deliver the stick to the surface is critical to the end sound. 2/3 of playing any instrument is mechanical and a motion that has to be trained. Throwing is the same.

The way a QB torque's for maximum velocity is different than he set's for accuracy. I don't see Luck as being fundamentally un-sound to the extent that he's not going to fix it ie Tebow. He is having issues with delivery and it's a posture issue, namely he expects to get hit on every throw. His habit is to get rid of the ball high, and hope it hits 20 yards down the field. If the system didn't ask that of him, his number's would be better, though I don't see this team rallying to win against some of the better teams ifthey didn't have the down field game plan.

How Luck holds the ball isn't really that important. His hips, and feet tell the story on the high throws.

How often do we get to see Luck take a 3 step drop and throw a hard direct line pass? It doesn't happen often.

Any one who has watched Indy game in game out knows this ^^^  is the reason for the low comp % and Int's.

 

The dude is on the move nearly every time he drops back.    He has had the heck beat out of him this year.

 

Next season the suites need to get this OL some serious help if Arians is going to insist on these deep routes that take 2.5+ seconds to develop.   Luck cannot be expected to take another pounding like the one suffered this season.    Arians is "LUCKY" Andrew is as tough as he is or he very easily could be getting bashed for his unwillingness to protect our QB better.

 

A interesting stat I found, Luck has attempted 599 passes this season.     27% of which were >15+ yards.

 

Griff and Wilson on the other had attempted 376 and 374 respectively...    at a 18% and 23% clip of passes >15+ yards.

http://wp.advancednf...tats.php?pos=QB

 

I won't even bother going into each teams respective running games.  And how it "matters" relative to a QB's "performance" ...

 

I can't think of one QB other than Rodgers and Rothelisberger who looks "good" throwing under duress.


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#23 No 1 Manning Fan

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

I'll "throw" my two cents in here, because I like ergonomics, posture, delivery, mechanical stuff to do with the body. As a drummer, how you deliver the stick to the surface is critical to the end sound. 2/3 of playing any instrument is mechanical and a motion that has to be trained. Throwing is the same.

The way a QB torque's for maximum velocity is different than he set's for accuracy. I don't see Luck as being fundamentally un-sound to the extent that he's not going to fix it ie Tebow. He is having issues with delivery and it's a posture issue, namely he expects to get hit on every throw. His habit is to get rid of the ball high, and hope it hits 20 yards down the field. If the system didn't ask that of him, his number's would be better, though I don't see this team rallying to win against some of the better teams ifthey didn't have the down field game plan.

How Luck holds the ball isn't really that important. His hips, and feet tell the story on the high throws.

How often do we get to see Luck take a 3 step drop and throw a hard direct line pass? It doesn't happen often.

Hey, I'm a drummer too! Do you play all percussion or mainly drumset?

Anyway... To address the OP, what exactly do you object to, or what concerns you about Luck's grip?

#24 Gavin

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

Luck does have a bit of a long wind up when throwing, cocking his arm way back.



#25 GoodLuck

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

The grip on the ball just seems odd. Was wondering if it could hurt accuracy and velocity.

#26 FireJimCaldwell

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:42 PM

The grip on the ball just seems odd. Was wondering if it could hurt accuracy and velocity.

I would say he would be more accurate and have more velocity using a grip that he's comfortable with. Now if he made an effort to alter it to something more conventional, over time he could find that he would become more accurate and have higher velocity, but that could come from other reasons as well and might not be only attributed to the grip change. 

 

It could be somewhat similar to a pitcher and 2 seam vs. a 4 seam fastball. along with how deep into the hand he holds the baseball, there are ways to take a little off here and there, but changing speeds is much more important to a pitcher than it is to a quarterback. 


In my opinion the grip isn't that big of an issue.



#27 King Colt

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:34 AM

It seems to me a large portion of his misses are when the ball is thrown too high.

 

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#28 Old Colt

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:38 AM

Embarrassing how averse to criticism people are in that thread.

As I've mentioned before, I've only noticed two apparent flaws with Luck's mechanics. One is the leg kick at the end of his delivery. It removes a lot of power from his throw because he can't drive his hips through, much like how you get way under the ball or hit fat if you lift your back foot in golf. The other is his inability to alter his arm angle when delivering from an awkward]


#29 Old Colt

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:44 AM

Wow;  guess Colt's QB Coach is overpaid. Irsay needs to fire him and hire one of you as the new Qb coach....

 

It is amazing how all you couch Qb's know more than the professionals and the ones who have done it professionally..... 

 

Luck is a rookie with no protection from his Oline; he is lucky to have a leg left to kick at the end of his throws!  Most throws he moving or running for his life, making throws and completions that are amazing.

 

If it's not broke, don't fix it.......  he has been amazing as a rookie in the NFL using the motion and methods he has grown up doing, that made him a #1 draft choice.

 

Get him some protection and time and watch the wins roll in....again...



#30 cmgww

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:15 PM

Lol at 25+ replies about Luck's throwing motion/how he holds the ball
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#31 FireJimCaldwell

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:24 PM

Lol at 25+ replies about Luck's throwing motion/how he holds the ball

There are far worse topics.

 

He has a unique grip. To me it was a fair question. 



#32 Nostrils

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 01:14 PM

Wow;  guess Colt's QB Coach is overpaid. Irsay needs to fire him and hire one of you as the new Qb coach....

 

It is amazing how all you couch Qb's know more than the professionals and the ones who have done it professionally..... 

 

Luck is a rookie with no protection from his Oline; he is lucky to have a leg left to kick at the end of his throws!  Most throws he moving or running for his life, making throws and completions that are amazing.

 

If it's not broke, don't fix it.......  he has been amazing as a rookie in the NFL using the motion and methods he has grown up doing, that made him a #1 draft choice.

 

Get him some protection and time and watch the wins roll in....again...

 

 

Agreed... I mean, I respect opinions but it's always something wild with these posts, at least come with logic...and like I've said OVER & OVER again, probably coming from people who have never played a down in their life... 

 

and YES, you can know ALL about football and never play in your life... but when we start criticizing players (this topic isn't as bad) like Bethea the other day for his game against KC (this fired me up), but you have NO idea about the angles, ESPECIALLY the angles a safety has to take game to game, or you're knocking the guy for having a hard time breaking down in front of someone as athletic/fast/quick as Jamaal Charles (imagine how hard it would be to tackle the guy in open space for a minute..), for missing a tackle or two, when he has saved us how many td's this season????? all by himself when someone gets to the second level, I lose my mind.. 

 

but back on topic, I think this is cool your curious about the grip on the ball and all, and no disrespect intended..

 

I just say go out and throw the ball using the laces differently and see and feel the difference.. It's minor but it's a trip, it feels funkyyyy...



#33 Matugi

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

Wow;  guess Colt's QB Coach is overpaid. Irsay needs to fire him and hire one of you as the new Qb coach....
 
It is amazing how all you couch Qb's know more than the professionals and the ones who have done it professionally..... 
 
Luck is a rookie with no protection from his Oline; he is lucky to have a leg left to kick at the end of his throws!  Most throws he moving or running for his life, making throws and completions that are amazing.
 
If it's not broke, don't fix it.......  he has been amazing as a rookie in the NFL using the motion and methods he has grown up doing, that made him a #1 draft choice.
 
Get him some protection and time and watch the wins roll in....again...

It as absolutely ludicrous to think that he has no areas that he can improve on. For as great a prospect as he was, he did indeed have question marks about him, namely his arm strength that originated from his tendency to get lazy in his base.

If you want to bring up such an idiom, that's fine, but I don't think leaving things the way they are is conducive to him improving. You can blame the offensive line all you want, but at some point Luck is going to start to have to take the check down, both for his own safety and for the benefit of the team.

Every quarterback has his faults. Luck is no different.






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