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Has the NFL QB position already evolved and is it here to stay?


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#1 chad72

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:16 PM

You look at the elite pocket passers in Brady and Peyton first.

 

Then, you look at the success QBs like Rodgers are having with movement outside the pocket and throwing.

 

Then, we transitioned to Cam Newton, Luck, RG3, Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick

 

It is almost like the QB position is evolving from the pure pocket passer to a mobile QB that can move outside the pocket with eyes down the field and throw, and occasionally make plays with his legs. It is still a passing league but the torch for the kind of passer has already been passed to a different kind. The passer is still primarily preferred but with a different touch and threat.

 

The athlete that is a passer first is taking over the pure passer (Peyton, Brady) or pure athlete (Vick, Vince Young), in a nutshell. Yep, if you look at Luck's measurables, he falls in that "athlete that is a passer first" category too.

 

It gives more hope to the Russell Wilsons and Johnny Manziels of the world but is it a permanent evolution?

 

Thoughts???



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#2 21isSuperman

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:51 PM

I think the pocket passer will stay forever.  I'm not a big fan of scrambling QBs like Vick or Vince Young, but I think the best combination is someone like Luck or Rodgers, who stay in the pocket to throw (when they have a pocket), but can make plays with their legs if they have too.  Scrambling QBs like Vick get injured too often due to their style of play and sometimes, they rely so much on their legs to make plays, that they don't spend as much time working on their throws and reads.  If the first throw isn't there, they might take off instead of going to the next read.


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#3 Matugi

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:23 PM

Yes.

Look at some of the big prospects the next few years:

Geno Smith
Teddy Bridgewater
Matt Barkley (more athletic than you would think)
Everett Golson
Aaron Murray
Tyler Bray
Tyler Wilson
Tajh Boyd
Mike Glennon (my sleeper pick to be the third quarterback taken, huge arm and extremely athletic)
EJ Manuel

Not all of them are the athletes that Griffin and Newton are, but all of them are mobile quarterbacks who can operate well outside the pocket. Then you have more developmental players like Bryn Renner, Keith Price, and Logan Thomas who are also extremely athletic but probably not first round picks.

The NFL is moving towards the pistol offense with more and more teams installing plays, and you need an athletic quarterback to run it effectively. Ball gets to the running back quicker, you can disguise the direction of the run better, and you can run every single play out of it because you can still line up in the I, twinback, offset I, singleback, etc.

#4 -JJ-

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:30 PM

I don't think the pocket passer is going anywhere..at least not the good ones:)

Plus a pocket passer is probably smarter than a running QB. After all they better read the defense correct cus' they ain't running to avoid the sack:)

Tebow and that Tenn QB..I mean they just freak out and run at the slighest pressure.

The ones that can scramble (as oppsed to run) is an asset.

#5 jvan1973

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:38 PM

Yes.

Look at some of the big prospects the next few years:

Geno Smith
Teddy Bridgewater
Matt Barkley (more athletic than you would think)
Everett Golson
Aaron Murray
Tyler Bray
Tyler Wilson
Tajh Boyd
Mike Glennon (my sleeper pick to be the third quarterback taken, huge arm and extremely athletic)
EJ Manuel

Not all of them are the athletes that Griffin and Newton are, but all of them are mobile quarterbacks who can operate well outside the pocket. Then you have more developmental players like Bryn Renner, Keith Price, and Logan Thomas who are also extremely athletic but probably not first round picks.

The NFL is moving towards the pistol offense with more and more teams installing plays, and you need an athletic quarterback to run it effectively. Ball gets to the running back quicker, you can disguise the direction of the run better, and you can run every single play out of it because you can still line up in the I, twinback, offset I, singleback, etc.

One team runs the pistol in the NFL. Very few run it in college. I wouldn't say the league is "moving" to it.

#6 Matugi

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:41 PM

One team runs the pistol in the NFL. Very few run it in college. I wouldn't say the league is "moving" to it.

49ers, Seahawks, Lions, and at least a few other teams have installed pistol plays in their offense. During the Packers-Lions game I saw at least 5 different pistol plays run. The pistol also apparently leads the league with an average of 5.6 yard per carry.

#7 jvan1973

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:44 PM

49ers, Seahawks, Lions, and at least a few other teams have installed pistol plays in their offense. During the Packers-Lions game I saw at least 5 different pistol plays run. The pistol also apparently leads the league with an average of 5.6 yard per carry.

Running a few plays out of the formation is not changing the game. Its a new twist like the wild cat that will be gone as soon as d coordinators figure out how to stop it. Traditional offenses will be around forever.

#8 Matugi

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:53 PM

as soon as d coordinators figure out how to stop it

The wild cat was a formation that a team could run a few plays out of the required a running back who could occasionally throw, but it only was a select few plays a la the Wing T.

The pistol is an entire offensive concept, not a formation. You can run your entire play book out of it.

There is nothing to "figure out" which is why defensive coordinators have had trouble stopping it. The closest you could get would be to leave a similar "option" player for the defensive who can either play run support or drop into coverage on any given play. Other than that it's a complete guessin game for defensive coordinators because you can disguise plays so well. In a traditional drop back game, the quarterback and running back flow the direction of the play. In the pistol, the running back can run straight ahead for the hand off and has a better line of vision for the holes after that because he gets the ball so much quicker. A decisive running back will carve up a defense all day long in this fashion, much like Alfred Morris has been able to do.

#9 jvan1973

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:56 PM

The wild cat was an formation that a team could run a few plays out of the required a running back who could occasionally throw, but it only was a select few plays a la the Wing T.

The pistol is an entire offensive concept, not a formation. You can run your entire play book out of it.

There is nothing to "figure out" which is why defensive coordinators have had trouble stopping it. The closest you could get would be to leave a similar "option" player for the defensive who can either play run support or drop into coverage on any given play. Other than that it's a complete guessin game for defensive coordinators because you can disguise plays so well. In a traditional drop back game, the quarterback and running back flow the direction of the play. In the pistol, the running back can run straight ahead for the hand off and has a better line of vision for the holes after that because he gets the ball so much quicker. A decisive running back will carve up a defense all day long in this fashion, much like Alfred Morris has been able to do.
Again, one team runs it. Its not taking the league by storm by any means

#10 BLOODontheTRACKS

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

i laugh every time is read this. the death of the pocket passer was first mentioned in sport illustrated in the early 80's...with randall cunningham on the cover.

#11 RGIII

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

Running a few plays out of the formation is not changing the game. Its a new twist like the wild cat that will be gone as soon as d coordinators figure out how to stop it. Traditional offenses will be around forever.

 

I have serious doubts that you understand what the pistol actually is if you're comparing it to wildcat formations.



#12 Bogie

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:56 PM

It is way too easy to throw in this league, when you have so many penalties that aid the quarterback.

 

That's why I have never been so impressed by the stat hogs of today, and I love Brees to death, but you're never going to erase the greatness of Montana or Staubach, Bradshaw, Marino, or even Warren Moon. Back then it was a lot harder when you couldn't throw our of bounds and you nearly got killed by some of the better defenses.


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#13 jvan1973

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:25 PM

I have serious doubts that you understand what the pistol actually is if you're comparing it to wildcat formations.


I know exactly what the pistol offense is. Nevada had been running it for years. there is a reason not many teams have adopted it.

#14 RGIII

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:00 AM

I know exactly what the pistol offense is. Nevada had been running it for years. there is a reason not many teams have adopted it.

 

Then explain to me how you expect teams to adjust to it and effectively eliminate it as a viable formation from the league.



#15 UMLBB10

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:20 AM

I feel like we've been hearing about this "new generation" of QB's since the early 90's. Randall Cunningham to Vick and now to RG3. and every year its a QB who can throw from the pocket who wins the SB and has a long successful carreer. sure, the mobile qb can do well in the NFL but the pocket passer isn't going anywhere



#16 Balzer40

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

The reason we are seeing so many running QB's is because it works well in the college ranks. So many college teams have went to this kind of system and IMO, it's a shame. College's aren't teaching these QB's to stay in the pocket and become a true pocket passer. They are not learning to read defenses and go through progressions. Just snap the ball and take off running if your 1st read isn't open. I don't like it and IMO will lower the quality of the NFL. I hope im wrong about that and I wish these college teams would go back to running a more traditional pro style offense. Just don't see too many true pocket passing QB's in college anymore.


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#17 PrincetonTiger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:11 PM

yes and No


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#18 rdskns4eva

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:24 PM

Again, one team runs it. Its not taking the league by storm by any means

Saying a team will figure out the pistol is like saying a team will figure out the Shotgun.  It's not trick plays.  It's a base offense that allows the advantages of shotgun with the advantages of power football..  In other words:

 

How can I run a power I run off tackle out of shotgun?  Answer? Pistol.



#19 rdskns4eva

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:27 PM

I feel like we've been hearing about this "new generation" of QB's since the early 90's. Randall Cunningham to Vick and now to RG3. and every year its a QB who can throw from the pocket who wins the SB and has a long successful carreer. sure, the mobile qb can do well in the NFL but the pocket passer isn't going anywhere

For the most part, yes.

 

But Steve Young was a mobile Quarterback.  Aaron Rogers is a mobile quarterback.



#20 chad72

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:29 PM

For the most part, yes.

 

But Steve Young was a mobile Quarterback.  Aaron Rogers is a mobile quarterback.

 

Like someone else pointed out, running QB is different from scrambling QB. A QB that scrambles with eyes down the field for a throw is the one the league is transitioning to. The pre-dominantly running QB is going to be extinct. If you cannot pass accurately while scrambling, your value is pretty low.



#21 BLOODontheTRACKS

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:30 PM

The reason we are seeing so many running QB's is because it works well in the college ranks. So many college teams have went to this kind of system and IMO, it's a shame. College's aren't teaching these QB's to stay in the pocket and become a true pocket passer. They are not learning to read defenses and go through progressions. Just snap the ball and take off running if your 1st read isn't open. I don't like it and IMO will lower the quality of the NFL. I hope im wrong about that and I wish these college teams would go back to running a more traditional pro style offense. Just don't see too many true pocket passing QB's in college anymore.

this is why i wish the nfl had a true minor league system instead of the hypocritical fraud that is college football.

#22 rdskns4eva

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:32 PM

Again, one team runs it. Its not taking the league by storm by any means

 

NFL Teams that have elements of the pistol in their offense (this is from WIkipedia so I dont know how accurate it is, althought I know for a fact that the Redskins, 49ers with Colin and the Panthers run alot of plays out of pistol).

 



#23 rdskns4eva

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:55 PM

Like someone else pointed out, running QB is different from scrambling QB. A QB that scrambles with eyes down the field for a throw is the one the league is transitioning to. The pre-dominantly running QB is going to be extinct. If you cannot pass accurately while scrambling, your value is pretty low.

Yup.  I never said that Rogers or Young were running quarterbacks.  I said they were mobile.  Luck, Rg3 and Wilson are all mobile quarterbacks that can throw on the run.



#24 PrincetonTiger

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:57 PM

Yup.  I never said that Rogers or Young were running quarterbacks.  I said they were mobile.  Luck, Rg3 and Wilson are all mobile quarterbacks that can throw on the run.

agreed


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#25 Matugi

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:58 PM

The reason we are seeing so many running QB's is because it works well in the college ranks. So many college teams have went to this kind of system and IMO, it's a shame. College's aren't teaching these QB's to stay in the pocket and become a true pocket passer. They are not learning to read defenses and go through progressions. Just snap the ball and take off running if your 1st read isn't open. I don't like it and IMO will lower the quality of the NFL. I hope im wrong about that and I wish these college teams would go back to running a more traditional pro style offense. Just don't see too many true pocket passing QB's in college anymore.

Why in God's name would they want to force a QB to be confined to the pocket and develop them around that as opposed to allowing them to develop around a full skill set? Fact is that the ability to be mobile and being athletic are much more advantageous than being a "good pocket passer". Allowing a quarterback to use his entire skill set increases the chance of big plays and is already making offenses much more explosive.

#26 Balzer40

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:18 PM

Why in God's name would they want to force a QB to be confined to the pocket and develop them around that as opposed to allowing them to develop around a full skill set? Fact is that the ability to be mobile and being athletic are much more advantageous than being a "good pocket passer". Allowing a quarterback to use his entire skill set increases the chance of big plays and is already making offenses much more explosive.

 

 

 

Not against using their full skill set. The problem is they are not using their full skill set. When they are not being taught to read a defense and go through progressions before taking off running, they are not learning how to be a NFL QB. I have no problem with a QB scrambling to make a play, but I do have a problem with them being a run 1st QB, and that is simply what many of the college QB's are. It takes a skill away from what the QB position is supposed to be about. IMO QB's are supposed to make plays from the pocket. 


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#27 Matugi

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:30 PM

Not against using their full skill set. The problem is they are not using their full skill set. When they are not being taught to read a defense and go through progressions before taking off running, they are not learning how to be a NFL QB. I have no problem with a QB scrambling to make a play, but I do have a problem with them being a run 1st QB, and that is simply what many of the college QB's are. It takes a skill away from what the QB position is supposed to be about. IMO QB's are supposed to make plays from the pocket. 

Not all QBs have the natural ability to sit in a pocket and read a defense. That's why so few QBs succeed, and that's why so many college teams insist on using a wishbone system.

The successful QBs are the ones who are athletes AND can read a defense. Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, RG3, Ryan Tannehill, Geno Smith, Mike Glennon...






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