The Luck Pick 6

[The Fish]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/11/luck-play-wasnt-reversed-because-refereee-didnt-see-conclusive-video/

there's a real problem if CBS can get you better replays than the officials get

[SIXTHOBJECT]

I posted on another thread that maybe it was the right call as it might be whether or not his arm had started forward. I did just find that this is indeed the case. What constituted that being a pass was not whether or not the knee hit before the ball left Lucks hand. The replay had to show evidence that his arm didn't start forward and I dont think that was conclusive looking at the replay. NFL channel has it wrong for sure , I wonder if ESPN has the ruke wrong also. The two calls for holding and PI sure were bad ones. But then again the missed false start was as bad as it gets.

From Wikipedia...

The moment that a forward pass begins is important to the game. The pass begins the moment the passer's arm begins to move forward

the only time the arm going forward in this instance matters is when the ruling on the field is called a fumble. If the ball is still in his hand at the same time the body except the hands touches the ground it is either a sack or a tackle...

[House]

the only time the arm going forward in this instance matters is when the ruling on the field is called a fumble. If the ball is still in his hand at the same time the body except the hands touches the ground it is either a sack or a tackle...

It is pretty funny, that the only way to justify this call is to rewrite the very basic rules of football

[FireJimCaldwell]

The refs have 60 seconds to review the replays. Obviously the first cuts they are going to look at are the simple original unedited feeds. The producers & engineers are in the truck adding their filters and zoomed in and other angles into the broadcast and some of that doesn't come within that 60 second window, so it is easy to see why they don't get everything the fans at home get on tv.

[PrincetonTiger]

The refs have 60 seconds to review the replays. Obviously the first cuts they are going to look at are the simple original unedited feeds. The producers & engineers are in the truck adding their filters and zoomed in and other angles into the broadcast and some of that doesn't come within that 60 second window, so it is easy to see why they don't get everything the fans at home get on tv.

very true

[BrentMc11]

It seems we are at an impasse on the Pick 6? Like it or not....play stands as called....and this crew was pathetic.

Referees need to be held more accountable up to and including discharge! I would love to call the game......hire me!

[PrincetonTiger]

As I said earlier

WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE

and

lets move on to Houston

[bavanlan]

The Titans were awarded a touchdown on anAndrew Luck interception on Sunday, on a play that should have been blown dead before Luck threw the ball. And even though a replay conclusively showed that Luck’s knee was down before he let go of the ball, the Titans’ touchdown wasn’t overturned. NFL director of instant replay Dean Blandino says that can’t happen again.

“Unfortunately, we didn’t get this angle down to the referee,” Blandino said on NFL Network. “The replay official did not send it down to the referee. And that is a mistake, and that’s something that we have to make sure doesn’t happen again. You can see that the knee is down, you can see that Luck clearly has control of the football, but the referee never got a look at this angle because the replay official didn’t send it down to the field, and that’s something that we’re going to work on and we have been working on to make sure it doesn’t happen again.”

The Colts overcame the replay assistant’s mistake and won the game anyway, but mistakes like that are inexcusable, and the NFL needs to make sure that something like that doesn’t happen again. At the start of this season, botched calls by the replacement officials were the biggest story in the NFL. No one wants botched calls to be the NFL’s biggest story at the end of the season.

http://profootballta...-replay-errors/

Hopefully this puts the "hand moving forward" debate to bed. Forever.

[House]

http://profootballta...-replay-errors/

Hopefully this puts the "hand moving forward" debate to bed. Forever.

Amen to that.

No need to reinvent a rule to try covering a mistake lol. We're all human.

[deedub75]

It is pretty funny, that the only way to justify this call is to rewrite the very basic rules of football

I know. The rule specifically says that the arm moving forward constitutes a forward pass. Luck's arm was moving forward before his knee went down. The refs followed the rule. I can almost guarantee that the officials in the replay booth have a copy of the rule book which they looked at.

I agree that it may be a bad rule but it is the rule nonetheless.

[deedub75]

http://profootballta...-replay-errors/

Hopefully this puts the "hand moving forward" debate to bed. Forever.

Replay error or not, it doesn't change the letters in the rule book which say thay the arm moving forward makes it a pass.

[ColtsSouljah]

I totally DO NOT buy that the ref didn't see what we saw or whatever. On nearly every game I have watched this year, the announcers have made a huge deal of talking about how they see EXACTLY what we see with the replays. So, sorry to beat a dead horse, but I do not buy that answer from the league for one stinking second.

[House]

I know. The rule specifically says that the arm moving forward constitutes a forward pass. Luck's arm was moving forward before his knee went down. The refs followed the rule. I can almost guarantee that the officials in the replay booth have a copy of the rule book which they looked at.

I agree that it may be a bad rule but it is the rule nonetheless.

It isn't the rule, but overwhelming evidence doesn't seem to sway you so best we just agree to disagree .

It's done and over either way.

[bavanlan]

Replay error or not, it doesn't change the letters in the rule book which say thay the arm moving forward makes it a pass.

The head of instant replay (who is getting ready to be named the head of officiating) said that the call should have been overturned because he had possession with his knee on the ground.

You're clearly interpreting the rule wrong, particularly the part that says a ball is dead the instant a player with possession is downed by contact.

[bavanlan]

Section 2 Dead Ball

Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:

(a) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body other than his

hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground. A runner touching the ground with his

hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to advance; or

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/10_2012_BallInPlay_DeadBall_Scrimm.pdf

And because you'll ask for it:

Section 27 Runner and Running Play

RUNNER

Article 1 The Runner is the offensive player who is in possession of a live ball (3-2-1), i.e., holding the ball or carrying it in any

direction.

Section 22 Pass and Passer

PASS AND PASSER

Article 1 A Pass is the movement of the ball caused by the runner who throws, shoves (shovel pass), or pushes (push pass)

the ball (3-28-1).

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/6_2012_Definitions.pdf

[deedub75]

It isn't the rule, but overwhelming evidence doesn't seem to sway you so best we just agree to disagree .

It's done and over either way.

It isn't the rule, but overwhelming evidence doesn't seem to sway you so best we just agree to disagree .

It's done and over either way.

If it isn't the rule then why is it in the rule book?

Rule 8 Forward Pass, Backward Pass, Fumble

Section 1 Forward Pass

DEFINITION

Article 1 Definition

It is a forward pass if:

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s

hand(s); or

(b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the

opponent’s goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

Note: A ball that is intentionally fumbled and goes forward is a forward pass. A ball that is intentionally muffed,

and goes forward or backward, is a batted ball (12-1-8). The direction taken by a fumbled or muffed ball

does not affect the application of the rules specific to such acts, unless it is ruled that they are intentional.

When a player is in control of the ball and attempting to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of

his hand starts a forward pass.

(a) If the passer is attempting to throw a forward pass, but contact by an opponent materially affects him,

causing the ball to go backward, it is a forward pass, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a

player, an official, or anything else.

(b) If, after an intentional forward movement of his hand, the passer loses possession of the ball as he is

attempting to tuck it back toward his body, it is a forward pass. If the player loses possession after he

has tucked the ball into his body, it is a fumble.

© If the passer loses possession of the ball while attempting to recock his arm, it is a fumble.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/11_Rule8_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf

[House]

If it isn't the rule then why is it in the rule book?

Rule 8 Forward Pass, Backward Pass, Fumble

Section 1 Forward Pass

DEFINITION

Article 1 Definition

������������It is a forward pass if:

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s

hand(s); or

(b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the

opponent’s goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

Note: A ball that is intentionally fumbled and goes forward is a forward pass. A ball that is intentionally muffed,

and goes forward or backward, is a batted ball (12-1-8). The direction taken by a fumbled or muffed ball

does not affect the application of the rules specific to such acts, unless it is ruled that they are intentional.

When a player is in control of the ball and attempting to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of

his hand starts a forward pass.

(a) If the passer is attempting to throw a forward pass, but contact by an opponent materially affects him,

causing the ball to go backward, it is a forward pass, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a

player, an official, or anything else.

(b) If, after an intentional forward movement of his hand, the passer loses possession of the ball as he is

attempting to tuck it back toward his body, it is a forward pass. If the player loses possession after he

has tucked the ball into his body, it is a fumble.

© If the passer loses possession of the ball while attempting to recock his arm, it is a fumble.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/11_Rule8_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf

I don't enjoy talking in circles lol.

That rule has nothing to do with Sundays game. It strictly is discussing what constitutes/seperates a forward pass from; a lateral, a backwards pass, and a fumble. Not if his arm is coming forward while already downed by an opponent.

But we've already had this exact exchange haven't we ;)

Mike Pereira said it was blown. I am also more than confident he is well versed in the rulebook.

Again lets agree to disagree. Clearly you think your right, clearly I think I'm right. This topic isn't even relevant anymore. Lets move on.

[deedub75]

I don't enjoy talking in circles lol.

That rule has nothing to do with Sundays game. It strictly is discussing what constitutes/seperates a forward pass from; a lateral, a backwards pass, and a fumble. Not if his arm is coming forward while already downed by an opponent.

But we've already had this exact exchange haven't we ;)

Mike Pereira said it was blown. I am also more than confident he is well versed in the rulebook.

Again lets agree to disagree. Clearly you think your right, clearly I think I'm right. This topic isn't even relevant anymore. Lets move on.

The point is that Luck's arm was moving forward (which according to the rule constitutes a forward pass) before his knee went down. The refs called it by the letter of the law. Plain and simple as that.

[ryano]

You're overthinking it. When his knee touches, the play is over. Period. Ball was still in his hand. You're too worried about the starting of the arm forward, and focusing on the tuck rule. This rule has to do with fumbles when re-cocked. The ball is in his hand when his knee touches, this is the end of the play. It's that simple.

[CardiacColts]

I don't enjoy talking in circles lol.

That rule has nothing to do with Sundays game. It strictly is discussing what constitutes/seperates a forward pass from; a lateral, a backwards pass, and a fumble. Not if his arm is coming forward while already downed by an opponent.

But we've already had this exact exchange haven't we ;)

Mike Pereira said it was blown. I am also more than confident he is well versed in the rulebook.

Again lets agree to disagree. Clearly you think your right, clearly I think I'm right. This topic isn't even relevant anymore. Lets move on.

The point is that Luck's arm was moving forward (which according to the rule constitutes a forward pass) before his knee went down. The refs called it by the letter of the law. Plain and simple as that.

This is a redundant debate. The refs from the game came out and said that they were NOT provided the footage of Luck's knee touching the ground, implying that this does constitute indisputable evidence that he was down. There is no question that the call was in fact blown. As for the "letter of the law" with his arm moving forward, that is a ridiculous argument. If they had that footage of his knee touching and Luck had completed the pass instead of having an INT, I assure you the refs would NOT have said, "Oh, his knee was down but his arm was already moving forward so he gets to complete the pass." That is just absurd, he would be ruled down. That rule is for fumble/ incomplete pass calls. Come on guys, there is really nothing to debate.

[deedub75]

This is a redundant debate. The refs from the game came out and said that they were NOT provided the footage of Luck's knee touching the ground, implying that this does constitute indisputable evidence that he was down. There is no question that the call was in fact blown. As for the "letter of the law" with his arm moving forward, that is a ridiculous argument. If they had that footage of his knee touching and Luck had completed the pass instead of having an INT, I assure you the refs would NOT have said, "Oh, his knee was down but his arm was already moving forward so he gets to complete the pass." That is just absurd, he would be ruled down. That rule is for fumble/ incomplete pass calls. Come on guys, there is really nothing to debate.

The tuck rule has its on separate rule. I was at the game. We saw on the big screen exactly what the refs saw. It's called the "Toyota Under the Hood." They showed several angles of Luck's knee touching the ground. In fact, every angle that they looked at showed Luck's knee touching the ground. There was no doubt that his knee was down. Before they made the ruling, they focused on Luck's arm movement. They kept rewinding it, moving it forward, pausing it, slow motion, etc. trying to see if the arm movement occured before or after Luck's knee touched. At first, I thought maybe the refs were trying to decide if the ball was leaving his fingertips before his knee went down. It is hard to determine exactly when the ball left his fingertips in relation to his knee going down. After reading the rule book, I understand now that the refs were trying to determine arm movement and not when the ball left his fingertips.

[CardiacColts]

The tuck rule has its on separate rule. I was at the game. We saw on the big screen exactly what the refs saw. It's called the "Toyota Under the Hood." They showed several angles of Luck's knee touching the ground. In fact, every angle that they looked at showed Luck's knee touching the ground. There was no doubt that his knee was down. Before they made the ruling, they focused on Luck's arm movement. They kept rewinding it, moving it forward, pausing it, slow motion, etc. trying to see if the arm movement occured before or after Luck's knee touched. At first, I thought maybe the refs were trying to decide if the ball was leaving his fingertips before his knee went down. It is hard to determine exactly when the ball left his fingertips in relation to his knee going down. After reading the rule book, I understand now that the refs were trying to determine arm movement and not when the ball left his fingertips.

I can only imagine how frustrating that would have been to watch live. I saw on TV the toyota under the hood shots; however, the most definitive view that was pieced together from microsecond footage is the one that the refs said they were not provided. I get your argument and I don't know how it happened, but they are saying it did. So either they regret the call they made (knowing it was wrong), or they really did not have that shot. Either way, even the refs have indicated it was clear Luck was down. Seems pretty cut and dry.

[House]

I can only imagine how frustrating that would have been to watch live. I saw on TV the toyota under the hood shots; however, the most definitive view that was pieced together from microsecond footage is the one that the refs said they were not provided. I get your argument and I don't know how it happened, but they are saying it did. So either they regret the call they made (knowing it was wrong), or they really did not have that shot. Either way, even the refs have indicated it was clear Luck was down. Seems pretty cut and dry.

I've been to plenty of games at Lucas Oil, and never been told that "Toyota Under the hood" was actually what the Offical was looking at. It's just a play on words not the actually video feed the refs were looking at. In fact before they were even allowed to show replays of challenges on the big screen, they would still announce "Toyota Under the hood". It's subtitle product placement.

Which makes sense why they would show the angle of Lucks knee hitting the ground over and over, to show the crowd he was down.

I told myself I would stop posting on this. What is wrong with me

[CardiacColts]

I've been to plenty of games at Lucas Oil, and never been told that "Toyota Under the hood" was actually what the Offical was looking at. It's just a play on words not the actually video feed the refs were looking at. In fact before they were even allowed to show replays of challenges on the big screen, they would still announce "Toyota Under the hood". It's subtitle product placement.

Which makes sense why they would show the angle of Lucks knee hitting the ground over and over, to show the crowd he was down.

I told myself I would stop posting on this. What is wrong with me

Thanks for the insight! That makes even more sense as to why the officials were not privy to the most definitive angles.

[deedub75]

Before this season, the NFL announce that it would take fans under the hood at the games to improve the fan experience. The footage at the stadium is supposed to be the exact view that the ref is looking.

[House]

Before this season, the NFL announce that it would take fans under the hood at the games to improve the fan experience. The footage at the stadium is supposed to be the exact view that the ref is looking.

I dunno, but they always announced toyota under the hood, even before this season.

Either way, if they saw the definitive angle. Bad on them. If they didn't, bad on replay.

[bavanlan]

The tuck rule has its on separate rule. I was at the game. We saw on the big screen exactly what the refs saw. It's called the "Toyota Under the Hood." They showed several angles of Luck's knee touching the ground. In fact, every angle that they looked at showed Luck's knee touching the ground. There was no doubt that his knee was down. Before they made the ruling, they focused on Luck's arm movement. They kept rewinding it, moving it forward, pausing it, slow motion, etc. trying to see if the arm movement occured before or after Luck's knee touched. At first, I thought maybe the refs were trying to decide if the ball was leaving his fingertips before his knee went down. It is hard to determine exactly when the ball left his fingertips in relation to his knee going down. After reading the rule book, I understand now that the refs were trying to determine arm movement and not when the ball left his fingertips.

You can't throw a dead ball.

[bavanlan]

Before this season, the NFL announce that it would take fans under the hood at the games to improve the fan experience. The footage at the stadium is supposed to be the exact view that the ref is looking.

Yep.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Replay error or not, it doesn't change the letters in the rule book which say thay the arm moving forward makes it a pass.

What is exact wording in the rule? My guess it says initiates or begins the process of or something of that nature, not makes. Otherwise, a pump fake would be a pass, and QB could not throw it (forward) again. Now, of course, we know this to be untrue, as QB's pump fake and throw deep on double move routes frequently. Thus the pass isn't actually 'made' until the ball leaves the hand of the thrower when that arm has 'initiated" the pass by moving forward. Whether the ball leaving the hand is intention or knocked out by a defender has no bearing. it is a pass that can be caught, intercepted, or incomplete.

If the ball never leaves the throwers hand, and is completely cradled back into the body of the thrower, the thrower is now a runner and losing possession of the ball is a fumble, unless it was via another forward pass that is successfully attempted and the ball leaves the throwers possession while arm is in a forward motion.

If at any time the thrower has been contacted by defensive personnel and any body part of the thrower except his hands then touches the ground, the play is immediately dead at that moment. Thus the play was over and the ball dead the exact second Luck's knee hit the turf, which was shown on TV (and I captured on my own camera before replay was even finished, and uploaded to this forum).

So I'm certain the exact wording is paramount here. I'll bet the NFL has the wording to allow for these scenarios above, because that is how the Refs have been ruling, and should continue to do so.

[House]

Yep.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl-allow-stadium-crowd-view-replays-officials-fan-233100166--nfl.html

Found an article addressing this. I stand corrected on that issue, but funny enough the article brings up a scenario just like the one were discussing

I do know before this year "Toyota Under the hood" was just product placement though lol. Because most of the time I feel we never even got to see a replay.

[Balzer40]

What is exact wording in the rule? My guess it says initiates or begins the process of or something of that nature, not makes. Otherwise, a pump fake would be a pass, and QB could not throw it (forward) again. Now, of course, we know this to be untrue, as QB's pump fake and throw deep on double move routes frequently. Thus the pass isn't actually 'made' until the ball leaves the hand of the thrower when that arm has 'initiated" the pass by moving forward. Whether the ball leaving the hand is intention or knocked out by a defender has no bearing. it is a pass that can be caught, intercepted, or incomplete.

If the ball never leaves the throwers hand, and is completely cradled back into the body of the thrower, the thrower is now a runner and losing possession of the ball is a fumble, unless it was via another forward pass that is successfully attempted and the ball leaves the throwers possession while arm is in a forward motion.

So I'm certain the exact wording is paramount here. I'll bet the NFL has the wording to allow for these scenarios above, because that is how the Refs have been ruling, and should continue to do so.

deedub is just trying to be right even though he's obviously wrong. Every sports network said the officials messed up the call as did the former vice president of officials Mike Pereira. The simple fact is either, the refs didn't see a good angle(for whatever reason), or they just simply do not know the rules of the game.

[BrentMc11]

I am glad I stayed out of this one....it has been a fun read.....are we done yet? It is OVER......I hope the Yugo under the hood works this week .....done with this topic....Go Colts! Just say YES to UNFOLLOW TOPIC...............

[JoKeR]

If it isn't the rule then why is it in the rule book?

Rule 8 Forward Pass, Backward Pass, Fumble

Section 1 Forward Pass

DEFINITION

Article 1 Definition

������������It is a forward pass if:

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s

hand(s); or

(b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the

opponent’s goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

Note: A ball that is intentionally fumbled and goes forward is a forward pass. A ball that is intentionally muffed,

and goes forward or backward, is a batted ball (12-1-8). The direction taken by a fumbled or muffed ball

does not affect the application of the rules specific to such acts, unless it is ruled that they are intentional.

When a player is in control of the ball and attempting to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of

his hand starts a forward pass.

(a) If the passer is attempting to throw a forward pass, but contact by an opponent materially affects him,

causing the ball to go backward, it is a forward pass, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a

player, an official, or anything else.

(b) If, after an intentional forward movement of his hand, the passer loses possession of the ball as he is

attempting to tuck it back toward his body, it is a forward pass. If the player loses possession after he

has tucked the ball into his body, it is a fumble.

© If the passer loses possession of the ball while attempting to recock his arm, it is a fumble.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/11_Rule8_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf

None of this says anything about a player being down, this has to do with the difference between a fumble and a forward pass. Want to know why it doesn't say anything about a player being down? Because a dead ball is a dead ball, play is over.

[House]

None of this says anything about a player being down, this has to do with the difference between a fumble and a forward pass. Want to know why it doesn't say anything about a player being down? Because a dead ball is a dead ball, play is over.

I hope you like merry go rounds......

[JoKeR]

I hope you like merry go rounds......

Your right its hopeless.

[GoColts8818]

The league said they got the call wrong because his knee was down once your knee is down from contact and you still have the ball in your hand it no longer matters if your arm is going forward for a pass or not because you are now down and the play is over at that point. The was it an int or fumble debate does not matter on this play because he was down by contact still in poistion of the ball.

[Balzer40]

The league said they got the call wrong because his knee was down once your knee is down from contact and you still have the ball in your hand it no longer matters if your arm is going forward for a pass or not because you are now down and the play is over at that point.

Even with the overwhelming evidence staring deedub directly in the face, he still wants to claim he's correct in his interpretation of the rule. I'm not sure what else can be said.

[Dan]

You'd have thought he'd admit defeat when the replay official admitted he made a mistake...

[deedub75]

The league said they got the call wrong because his knee was down once your knee is down from contact and you still have the ball in your hand it no longer matters if your arm is going forward for a pass or not because you are now down and the play is over at that point. The was it an int or fumble debate does not matter on this play because he was down by contact still in poistion of the ball.

Please post where the league said the refs made the incorrect call. The league is saying that the replay assistant didn't send a certain view down to the ref. Every view showed in the stadium showed his knee being down. We see exactly what the ref is seeing. Every angle showed his knee as being down but the refs were rewinding and zooming in on arm movement and no the knee which tells me they were trying to figure out arm movement or whether the ball left his fingertips before the knee went down.

[FireJimCaldwell]

For the record, I haven't seen an official announcement out of the NFL concerning the play.

After the Green Bay/Seatlle mishap they issued the following statement:

http://nflcommunicat...-seahawks-game/

They have not released anything concerning the Colts/Titans game on the site they use for annoucements.

http://nflcommunications.com/

I'm guessing that if the Titans would have won the game then the talking heads would be beating the topic to death, but since the Colts won many are treating it as a no-harm/no-foul type situation.