The Luck Pick 6

[FireJimCaldwell]

When the show the "under the hood" footage we're supposed to see exactly what the ref is looking at. We see when they fast forward, rewind, and pause the video. Refs see the raw footage filmed by the NFL and not the footage with the yellow lines that are generated by the TV producers. From what they showed on the jumbotron, I didn't see any information that would make them overturn the ruling.

At one point I thought they were taking fans under the hood on TV too. Maybe they don't do it anymore.

I knew that it was raw, I just wasn't sure who was controlling it and what options(pause/zoom/slow-mo) etc that they had available to them.

Fans at home aren't seeing it, but it would be nice if they would. Heck it sounds like a sponsorship opportunity, letter box with an add surrounding it instead of going to a commercial break.

Did the ref ever pause it where the knee was down? Was he able to zoom in?

[deedub75]

Exactly,...you cannot pass or fumble after you are down..that is the end of the play.

I cant find a rule that says a pass is complete if you simply begun the throwing motion but not completed it before you are officially down.

That one was pretty obvious...like the Lions/Texans on Thanksgiving day.....the refs missed it and the replay guy felt he couldnt overrule the obvious bad call on the field.

..that's a flaw in the replay system.......The upstairs offical shouldnt have to overrule the call on the field...

On a challenge...he should be allowed make his own judgement because he has more to go on

That play in the Lions/Texans game wasn't even reviewed! Jim Swartz threw the challenge flag on a play that couldn't be challeged and he got a 15 yr personal foul penalty for doing so. It was a scoring play so it was going to automatically going to be reviewed. You can't throw a challenge flag on a play that is automatically reviewed. The penalty negated the automatic review of the play so the TD had to stand. The league is looking to change that rule since that happened.

Arians did the same thing early in the season and he got flagged too.

[deedub75]

I knew that it was raw, I just wasn't sure who was controlling it and what options(pause/zoom/slow-mo) etc that they had available to them.

Fans at home aren't seeing it, but it would be nice if they would. Heck it sounds like a sponsorship opportunity, letter box with an add surrounding it instead of going to a commercial break.

Did the ref ever pause it where the knee was down? Was he able to zoom in?

It's called the "Toyota Under the Hood" at the stadium.

[deedub75]

I was also at the game, the camera angle they used to determine this play was not the one shown in this post which clearly shows he was down, the one they had on the screen at the stadium was the side angle and it was inconclusive.

Everyone was Booing at the stadium. lol

I was there too and I didn't see any inconclusive evidence on what they showed on the jumbotron. I booed to because that what we're suppsed to do, right? lol

[FireJimCaldwell]

The last game I went to was Denver @ Carolina and it was in a company box, so there were tv's on so I didn't pay attention to the big screens at the stadium. When a review came up it was still the broadcasters talking about it.

[Balzer40]

Dan Fouts said on TV that the refs had access to every angle that they show on TV. If the refs chose not to look at the most conclusive angle, then the fault still lies squarely on their shoulders.

[The Fish]

That does it, no more "under the hood footage, the refs should just flip on the game.

If it was a fumble on the play, he would have been down first anyway. Same principal.

The worst call during a very poorly officiated game.

[BleedingBlue]

Your concern shouldn't be some official's brain cramp, but rather your QBs brain cramp.

Andrew Luck should protect the ball better - and he should never have attempted to throw that ball.

really folks....

[SilentHill]

Your concern shouldn't be some official's brain cramp, but rather your QBs brain cramp.

Andrew Luck should protect the ball better - and he should never have attempted to throw that ball.

really folks....

I'll take some bad decisions by Luck if it means he takes the risky throws and completes more than not completing. Also I think it's time to update your sig, we have done rather well at stopping the run.

[Chicago-Colts Fan1287]

His knee was down. After that, the position of his arm doesn't matter.

I was just about to say the same thing.

[House]

Your concern shouldn't be some official's brain cramp, but rather your QBs brain cramp.

Andrew Luck should protect the ball better - and he should never have attempted to throw that ball.

really folks....

Why should we ignore one mistake to focus solely on another one?

Almost everyone has said dumb throw, but dumb call as well.

[ColtsBlueFL]

These kind of plays make me so nervous. I am not sure who Luck was trying to throw to. There was no Colt player near enough to make a play. That being said, he was down, and the refs missed the call. You should have heard the crowd around us when that happened! Also, the Bethea PI call was ridiculous!! There also was a call on Fokou for holding that was way off base!! Very bad crew yesterday!

Reggie Wayne was running an in route and coming across. Luck lead the throw but Witherspoon's gut was right in the throwing lane. I think had Witherspoon fallen down or vacated that spot earlier, Luck actually would have completed it to Regie, weird as that sounds. However, I wish he just would have ate the ball in any aspect on THAT play.

[BleedingBlue]

Why should we ignore one mistake to focus solely on another one?

Almost everyone has said dumb throw, but dumb call as well.

Because we have been the benefit of many calls in our favor - that were also bad decisions - but were not INTs because of the call in our favor. So the common denominator is more the bad decisions than the bad calls. Simple logic.

Additionally you will not always have the same officials, but you will always have the same QB.

Finally, we have no abilty to coach the officials, but we do have the ability to coach our rookie QB.

Best to be concerned with the things in your control (bad decisions) and let the other things go (bad calls).

[CardiacColts]

This is not true. The TV crew played this just as they were hitting commercial break while refs were under the hood. That was clue to get my camera and snap this shot

off my TV when they returned from commercial break. I knew it would up again right away. Plus, I hit record on my HD DVR, just so I could pause it.

Now, while I think they cost us a TD there, they gave it back when they didn't call the false start on us when Pat McAfee pinned them in at the 1 yard line. C. Vaughn jumped an out route moments later for the E-Z pick 6.

We had most calls go against us, but we overcame them, as a team is supposed to do. This is great for all the yougsters on our team in their growth curve.

Fair point, I stand corrected. Being in a Chicago market, I had to get creative to view the game. For this reason, I'm sure certin things were lost in translation on the stream. Thanks for the clarification.

[BleedingBlue]

I'll take some bad decisions by Luck if it means he takes the risky throws and completes more than not completing. Also I think it's time to update your sig, we have done rather well at stopping the run.

I should cross it out and put Reddings name in instead.

[CardiacColts]

They had this view readily available before the call was upheld. That's why Dan Fouts was flabbergasted as to how the refs blew this call.

I appreciate the clarification. I had it streaming and assumed that the footage was delayed. In this case, that was an egregious blown call.

[House]

Because we have been the benefit of many calls in our favor - that were also bad decisions - but were not INTs because of the call in our favor. So the common denominator is more the bad decisions than the bad calls. Simple logic.

Additionally you will not always have the same officials, but you will always have the same QB.

Finally, we have no abilty to coach the officials, but we do have the ability to coach our rookie QB.

Best to be concerned with the things in your control (bad decisions) and let the other things go (bad calls).

That's all besides the point of this thread though. This was about the call being right or wrong. Not the fact that it was a poor decision. Thus everyone is discussing the call here.

It also doesn't change the point that most here have conceded it was a poor throw, but the call was poor as well.

[deedub75]

I knew that it was raw, I just wasn't sure who was controlling it and what options(pause/zoom/slow-mo) etc that they had available to them.

Fans at home aren't seeing it, but it would be nice if they would. Heck it sounds like a sponsorship opportunity, letter box with an add surrounding it instead of going to a commercial break.

Did the ref ever pause it where the knee was down? Was he able to zoom in?

They showed a side angle of the play which they played in forward and reverse, slowed it down, and paused it. They were focusing on that side view and it looked like the ball was in the process of leaving his hand before the knee went down. It was also hard to determine the timing of when the ball was leaving the hand and when the knee went down. If they zoom in on the knee then they can't see what's going on with the arm and if they zoom in on the arm then they can't really see when the knee was down.

From what they showed at the game, it just didn't seem like there was enough information to overturn it.

[deedub75]

Rule 8 Forward Pass, Backward Pass, Fumble

Section 1 Forward Pass

DEFINITION

Article 1 Definition. It is a forward pass if:

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s); or

(b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line

than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

http://static.nfl.co...Pass_Fumble.pdf

You left this part out:

When a player is in control of the ball and attempting to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of

his hand starts a forward pass.

(a) If the passer is attempting to throw a forward pass, but contact by an opponent materially affects him,

causing the ball to go backward, it is a forward pass, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a

player, an official, or anything else.

(b) If, after an intentional forward movement of his hand, the passer loses possession of the ball as he is

attempting to tuck it back toward his body, it is a forward pass. If the player loses possession after he

has tucked the ball into his body, it is a fumble.

© If the passer loses possession of the ball while attempting to recock his arm, it is a fumble.

[JustAColtsFan]

his arm is moving forward. it was a pick six

The above picture is not a good one to use as it is two to three frames after his knees made contact with the ground. The force of his knees hitting the ground propeled him forward (what you see in the picture) which also caused the ball to fly out of his hands forward. Thats my explenation and I'm sticken to it ;)

[dw49]

Actually the key words are "2012 NFL Rulebook" and not "Wikipedia".

Agree. When I googled to try to find which was the case, arm going forward or ball leaving hand , this was the only site I found that gave a definitive anwer. Obviuosley I didn't know this was an unreliable site. So I'm wrong and this was just a horrible job of not fixing a bad call.

[deedub75]

Agree. When I googled to try to find which was the case, arm going forward or ball leaving hand , this was the only site I found that gave a definitive anwer. Obviuosley I didn't know this was an unreliable site. So I'm wrong and this was just a horrible job of not fixing a bad call.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2012%20-%20Rule%20Book.pdf

[JustAColtsFan]

Your concern shouldn't be some official's brain cramp, but rather your QBs brain cramp.

Andrew Luck should protect the ball better - and he should never have attempted to throw that ball.

really folks....

Oh, I thought we were debating if it was a sack or a pick. I 100% agree Luck should have tucked the ball and held on for the ride but it was still a sack either way!

[FireJimCaldwell]

They showed a side angle of the play which they played in forward and reverse, slowed it down, and paused it. They were focusing on that side view and it looked like the ball was in the process of leaving his hand before the knee went down. It was also hard to determine the timing of when the ball was leaving the hand and when the knee went down. If they zoom in on the knee then they can't see what's going on with the arm and if they zoom in on the arm then they can't really see when the knee was down.

From what they showed at the game, it just didn't seem like there was enough information to overturn it.

It sounds like they didn't have all of the footage that the great Mr. Fouts claimed that they had.

Thanks for the clarification.

[House]

You left this part out:

When a player is in control of the ball and attempting to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of

his hand starts a forward pass.

(a) If the passer is attempting to throw a forward pass, but contact by an opponent materially affects him,

causing the ball to go backward, it is a forward pass, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a

player, an official, or anything else.

(b) If, after an intentional forward movement of his hand, the passer loses possession of the ball as he is

attempting to tuck it back toward his body, it is a forward pass. If the player loses possession after he

has tucked the ball into his body, it is a fumble.

© If the passer loses possession of the ball while attempting to recock his arm, it is a fumble.

What bit of that addresses if his arm is coming forward, but the QBs knee is down and the ball is still in his hand?

I wish someone from the NFL would either A) explain the rule entirely or B) explain the officals though process or reasoning.

[House]

It sounds like they didn't have all of the footage that the great Mr. Fouts claimed that they had.

Thanks for the clarification.

We touched on this a bit in game, but the notion CBS has better camera angles than the NFL blows my mind lol.

[Balzer40]

It sounds like they didn't have all of the footage that the great Mr. Fouts claimed that they had.

Thanks for the clarification.

Fouts is not the only one that has said this. I have heard numerous times(not just in Colts games) that the replay booth has every available replay that the station airing the game has. The officials have the choice as to what views they want to see. So once again, if the refs chose to not look at all available views, the fault still lies squarely on their shoulders. If they are going to have instant replay, then they should utilize all available resources to get the call right.

[FireJimCaldwell]

We touched on this a bit in game, but the notion CBS has better camera angles than the NFL blows my mind lol.

Oh i know. I think the key might be that the CBS producer is a professional at getting replays up and obviously the super-zoom function isn't found on the typical remote control. That is one reason I've always favored the college review system where the guy in the booth is an official ref and makes the decision as opposed to the ref on the field(which is my understanding). The guy in the booth reviews every play and buzzes down if something needs to be addressed.

Fouts is not the only one that has said this. I have heard numerous times(not just in Colts games) that the replay booth has every available replay that the station airing the game has. The officials have the choice as to what views they want to see. So once again, if the refs chose to not look at all available views, the fault still lies squarely on their shoulders. If they are going to have instant replay, then they should utilize all available resources to get the call right.

I agree, but I also feel that we don't know the ins and outs of the process, of a ) who the ref is talking to whether it's simply the replay ref, or if he's talking to an engineer and has the ability to say okay show me different views or not. I mentioned this in the game thread after the play yesterday but I really wish one of the networks would wire a ref and put a camera on the bill of his hat for a preseason game just to see exactly what happens under the hood in any given review, just so the fans have a better understanding of what they ask for, or don't ask for if that should be the case.

If the ref didn't ask for every angles, then that is on him. If his interpretation of the rule book and or the play/timing wasn't undisputed evidence, then that is just something we have to live with because calls are missed and blown in every game and there are plenty of reviews that still go against public opinion.

[GoColts8818]

That play in the Lions/Texans game wasn't even reviewed! Jim Swartz threw the challenge flag on a play that couldn't be challeged and he got a 15 yr personal foul penalty for doing so. It was a scoring play so it was going to automatically going to be reviewed. You can't throw a challenge flag on a play that is automatically reviewed. The penalty negated the automatic review of the play so the TD had to stand. The league is looking to change that rule since that happened.

Arians did the same thing early in the season and he got flagged too.

I said after the Arians thing that I really don't like that it stops the review process. If you want to flag them to keep them from delaying the game fine but don't hit a double whammy like that. Also something I heard brought up after the Lions game was what if the Texans had looked at the replay and realized it was going to be reviewed and take away a touchdown and they threw the challenge flag to stop the review process willing to eat the 15 yards to save the touchdown? Are you really going to tell me a team wouldn't do that to a save a touchdown in the playoffs?

[GoColts8818]

I'll say this I was at the game Sunday and they put up what the ref looks at on the replay on the big board now. Well they showed briefly the picture from CBS where you could easily see Luck was down. Then they went to a side view where it was not as clear and the replay just kept going back and fourth on that shot without going to back to the clear shot of him being down. It almost looked like they were trying to find enough to say hey let's not change the call on the field. I really think the replay process needs to be taken out of the hands of the offical on the field because he made the first call and no one likes to admit they made a mistake if they can avoid it. I think it should be the same process we have now just the replay offical in the booth should be the one who makes the call on overturning it or not.

[Indyfan4life]

We still won the game. Let's get over it!

[deedub75]

What bit of that addresses if his arm is coming forward, but the QBs knee is down and the ball is still in his hand?

I wish someone from the NFL would either A) explain the rule entirely or B) explain the officals though process or reasoning.

If you read through the rule, it says "any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass." The point is that Luck's hand was moving forward before his knee hit the ground. According to the rule, the intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass. According to the rule, it has nothing to with when the ball was leaving his hand.

[Balzer40]

If you read through the rule, it says "any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass." The point is that Luck's hand was moving forward before his knee hit the ground. According to the rule, the intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass. According to the rule, it has nothing to with when the ball was leaving his hand.

I think you're misinterpreting the rule. Even Mike Pereira(former vice president of officiating) said the call should have been overturned and I'm pretty sure he knows the rules.

[House]

If you read through the rule, it says "any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass." The point is that Luck's hand was moving forward before his knee hit the ground. According to the rule, the intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass. According to the rule, it has nothing to with when the ball was leaving his hand.

I'm not sure your interpreting what that is saying constitutes a forward pass correctly. This is strictly about what makes up a forward pass. Not what are the circumstances that can cause a player being down by contact before releasing the football.

Oh well. Games over we won. Moot point either way lol.

[deedub75]

I'm not sure your interpreting what that is saying constitutes a forward pass correctly. This is strictly about what makes up a forward pass. Not what are the circumstances that can cause a player being down by contact before releasing the football.

Oh well. Games over we won. Moot point either way lol.

The point is, according to the rules of a forward pass, Luck was not down when he started the pass. His hand started moving forward, his knee went down, and then the ball came out and was intercepted.

[Jason_]

I'll say this I was at the game Sunday and they put up what the ref looks at on the replay on the big board now. Well they showed briefly the picture from CBS where you could easily see Luck was down. Then they went to a side view where it was not as clear and the replay just kept going back and fourth on that shot without going to back to the clear shot of him being down. It almost looked like they were trying to find enough to say hey let's not change the call on the field. I really think the replay process needs to be taken out of the hands of the offical on the field because he made the first call and no one likes to admit they made a mistake if they can avoid it. I think it should be the same process we have now just the replay offical in the booth should be the one who makes the call on overturning it or not.

How many refs are actually on the field? The head official (who is the one that goes under the hood) seldom makes those types of calls on his own. For one thing, there are almost always going to be at least 2-3 officials, if not more, with a good vantage point for each play so I'd say it's rare that a call comes down to the decision of just one of the refs without any type of conferring amongst them. Add to that the head official typically is paying most attention to the offensive line in order to call holding or false starts, so pretty much any play that occurs beyond the LOS will have little of his input anyway. Now this particular play did come from behind the LOS, but still there were at least 2 other officials with just as good a view of the play as the head official so I highly doubt he made the decision all on his own.

As I said before or possibly in a different thread, I had no problem with this call not being overturned. I didn't see anything in the replays that were shown (I don't recall them showing the side angle, they focused primarily on the head-on angle which, imo, leaves a bit of room for error when trying to determine exactly when his knee hit the ground...the side angle was much better but I don't recall seeing that angle while they were reviewing the play) that I would say was absolute, 100% definitive proof that the call on the field was wrong. Sure, it looked like there was a really good chance it should have been a sack but not concrete, 100% evidence. Plus, another thing we have to remember is the ref has a time limit for how long he can review the footage before having to make a decision and I believe it is 60 seconds, as Mort or Adam said during Monday Night countdown. One of them said that the side view that DID show definitive proof was not available during the 60 seconds that the ref was able to be under the hood.

[House]

The point is, according to the rules of a forward pass, Luck was not down when he started the pass. His hand started moving forward, his knee went down, and then the ball came out and was intercepted.

Clearly we disagree on this issue lol. You think it was correct. I, and Mike Pereira, think it was incorrect.

No worries we don't need to duke this out till were blue in the face

[Happy2BeHere]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000109402/article/why-did-the-pick-six-thrown-by-andrew-luck-stand

enough said about this.

[GoColts8818]

http://www.nfl.com/n...drew-luck-stand

enough said about this.

Well if they show the replays on the big board in the stadium that the refs see like they are supposed to this story is not true the very first thing they showed on the replay board was the front shot CBS had of Luck being down then they switched to a side view that they kept going back and fourth on it. It's why everyone in the stadium about lost their minds when they didn't over turn it either. This sounds like the NFL trying to cover their tracks. This isn't an excuse either for the NFL because they are supposed to have access to all the camera views that anyone else has now. It was botched call and the guy was right at the end had the Colts not come back and won this would have been a much bigger story than it was the fact the Colts did come back and win lets them kinda gloss over it.

[HungarianColtsFan]

Well if they show the replays on the big board in the stadium that the refs see like they are supposed to this story is not true the very first thing they showed on the replay board was the front shot CBS had of Luck being down then they switched to a side view that they kept going back and fourth on it. It's why everyone in the stadium about lost their minds when they didn't over turn it either. This sounds like the NFL trying to cover their tracks. This isn't an excuse either for the NFL because they are supposed to have access to all the camera views that anyone else has now. It was botched call and the guy was right at the end had the Colts not come back and won this would have been a much bigger story than it was the fact the Colts did come back and win lets them kinda gloss over it.

I just don't get one thing: how on the Earth "definitive replay proving Luck was down never was provided to the replay assistant or referee Pete Morelli" could happen?