The Luck Pick 6

[bavanlan]

His arm was moving forward before his knee went down. You just can't please some people on here. If a Colts player had caught the ball you would have been screaming that it his knee wasn't down.

Mike Pereira ‏@MikePereira

In IND I'm surprised they didn't reverse that if they saw that camera angle CBS just showed.

In IND I'm surprised they didn't reverse that if they saw that camera angle CBS just showed.

— Mike Pereira (@MikePereira)

December 9, 2012

[Balzer40]

His arm was moving forward before his knee went down. You just can't please some people on here. If a Colts player had caught the ball you would have been screaming that it his knee wasn't down.

His arm moving forward means nothing. He still had possession of the ball. That means it was a sack. Also, I want the game to be called right, regardless of the outcome. No team should ever lose a game because the refs made terrible calls. Luckily, we still pulled the game out, but when instant replay is there and the call is obvious, it has to be called right.

[bavanlan]

Rule 8 Forward Pass, Backward Pass, Fumble

Section 1 Forward Pass

DEFINITION

Article 1 Definition. It is a forward pass if:

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s); or

(b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line

than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/11_2012_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf

[Balzer40]

Rule 8 Forward Pass, Backward Pass, Fumble

Section 1 Forward Pass

DEFINITION

Article 1 Definition. It is a forward pass if:

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s); or

(b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line

than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

http://static.nfl.co...Pass_Fumble.pdf

This being the key words in this sentence.

[PrincetonTiger]

Rule 8 Forward Pass, Backward Pass, Fumble

Section 1 Forward Pass

DEFINITION

Article 1 Definition. It is a forward pass if:

(a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s); or

(b) the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line

than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

http://static.nfl.co...Pass_Fumble.pdf

Thanks

[deedub75]

Honest question. Since when does arm moving forward matter when it comes to being down?

And ontop of that if a Colts player had caught it, by your definition it would have been a legitimate play regardless lol.

Doesn't make sense to me. If the ball is still in your hands when you hit the ground. Play should be dead. Regardless of if it helps or hurts the Colts.

If a Colts play had caught it, the Titans would have challenged it saying his knee was down. If the rule does say that the pass begins when the arm is moving forward, the play should have been upheld no matter who caught the ball. I'm saying it doesn't matter who caught the ball because it was a legitimate pass.

I remember very early in the season when Luck did almost the exact same thing. He was going down and he basically made the pass on his knees. I can't remember who caught it but it was a completed pass because of the same rule. His arm was moving forward before his knee went down. There was even a thread asking if Luck made a completed pass from his knees. Does anyone remember that play or what team it was against?

[Jay Kirk]

"After further review, I ....... the call!" Merry Christmas Tennessee!

[bavanlan]

This being the key words in this sentence.

Actually the key words are "2012 NFL Rulebook" and not "Wikipedia".

[JoKeR]

I think that is important to bring up. Yes, pass begins when arm starts forward. This is important for tuck rule / fumble purposes. However, if a QB never throws it and is successful on the tuck, and cradles it back in without losing control, it isn't considered a pass attempt, correct? So if the ball never leaves the QB's possession, it isn't a successful attempt either, by deduction By that token, If a player carrying the ball is tackled an any part of the body besides the hand(s) touches the ground, the ball is dead immediately and the play is over. Then, any lateral or pass attempt after that is nullified, yes?

Yep when a player is down, he's down, the play is over. How can someone dispute the pic above? The ref was either beyond Incompetent or dirty.

[Balzer40]

Actually the key words are "2012 NFL Rulebook" and not "Wikipedia".

Very true.

[JoKeR]

If a Colts play had caught it, the Titans would have challenged it saying his knee was down. If the rule does say that the pass begins when the arm is moving forward, the play should have been upheld no matter who caught the ball. I'm saying it doesn't matter who caught the ball because it was a legitimate pass.

I remember very early in the season when Luck did almost the exact same thing. He was going down and he basically made the pass on his knees. I can't remember who caught it but it was a completed pass because of the same rule. His arm was moving forward before his knee went down. There was even a thread asking if Luck made a completed pass from his knees. Does anyone remember that play or what team it was against?

I remember the play and he wasn't down yet, he was still falling forward on that play.

[PrincetonTiger]

I remember the play and he wasn't down yet, he was still falling forward on that play.

agreed

[Jay Kirk]

Once again officiating makes me want to puke.B ut how can replay people miss it :hmm: hmmmmm is there a conspiracy?Well after further review the call stands,officiating just stinks all the way around the league :slaphead:

[JoKeR]

His arm moving forward means nothing. He still had possession of the ball. That means it was a sack. Also, I want the game to be called right, regardless of the outcome. No team should ever lose a game because the refs made terrible calls. Luckily, we still pulled the game out, but when instant replay is there and the call is obvious, it has to be called right.

It could've easily affected the outcome and I bet bad referring has changed the outcomes of games. Some of these refs need to quit and focus on their full time jobs.

[House]

If a Colts play had caught it, the Titans would have challenged it saying his knee was down. If the rule does say that the pass begins when the arm is moving forward, the play should have been upheld no matter who caught the ball. I'm saying it doesn't matter who caught the ball because it was a legitimate pass.

I know..... That's what I just said lol.

And your example isn't applicable because on that play earlier in the year, like you say, ball left Andrews hand before his knee was down. Yesterday the ball was still in his hand when his knee was firmly on the ground.

And I am 100 percent certain arm movement doesn't affect if the play is dead or not in this scenario.

Strange day for refs yesterday.......

[BrentMc11]

It has been brought to my attention that yesterday's referee crew has been given an all expenses paid trip to Seymour Better's workshop at the downtown Marriott in the Land of the Misfit Toys. First on the agenda is the basics......fundamentals if you will.

Better? Worse? Then they will need to wear bifocals (Harry Carray style) in order to tell if Antoine Bethea actually touched the receiver on the horrific interference call.....then the subject of Luck's nearly TWO knees down can be evaluated in a separate 3 hour workshop.....unless it is Happy Hour. :party: :disco:

[PrincetonTiger]

wow

[House]

It could've easily affected the outcome and I bet bad referring has changed the outcomes of games. Some of these refs need to quit and focus on their full time jobs.

I just really hate the idea of 7 points being awarded undeservingly.

[Indyswagger]

His arm was moving forward before his knee went down. You just can't please some people on here. If a Colts player had caught the ball you would have been screaming that it his knee wasn't down.

so, even if he had went all the way down, he would have been able to still throw the pass because his arm was moving forward? At what point does the play end? It is not a matter of "pleasing people", its just a discussion on a horribly bad call that could have cost the game. imo

[Kyle]

If a Colts play had caught it, the Titans would have challenged it saying his knee was down. If the rule does say that the pass begins when the arm is moving forward, the play should have been upheld no matter who caught the ball. I'm saying it doesn't matter who caught the ball because it was a legitimate pass.

I remember very early in the season when Luck did almost the exact same thing. He was going down and he basically made the pass on his knees. I can't remember who caught it but it was a completed pass because of the same rule. His arm was moving forward before his knee went down. There was even a thread asking if Luck made a completed pass from his knees. Does anyone remember that play or what team it was against?

You are totally missing the point of every single response you have gotten..... You have the rule wrong and i am not sure how you ever thought you had it right. I will try to make it easier to comprehend for you:

THE ARM MOVING FORWARD BEFORE THE KNEE IS DOWN DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING AT ALL!!!!! THE BALL HAS TO LEAVE THE QB'S HAND BEFORE HIS KNEE HITS THE GROUND

[18 to 44]

These kind of plays make me so nervous. I am not sure who Luck was trying to throw to. There was no Colt player near enough to make a play. That being said, he was down, and the refs missed the call. You should have heard the crowd around us when that happened! Also, the Bethea PI call was ridiculous!! There also was a call on Fokou for holding that was way off base!! Very bad crew yesterday!

[chad72]

Terrible officiating overall.

But if you dont want it to come down to the refs, Luck should stop living dangerously. That is a more important lesson learned from this. Take the sack, and punt it, IMO. Better than throwing it off balance where more bad things can happen than good.

[ruksak]

His arm was moving forward before his knee went down. You just can't please some people on here. If a Colts player had caught the ball you would have been screaming that it his knee wasn't down.

A knee is either down or it is not. When a player is down, it matters not what action he was in the course of executing. As long as the ball is in his possession while a knee contacts the field, the play is dead, the ball is dead.

Wasn't there a play a few weeks ago wherein Luck threw from his knees and it appeared a defender had contact with him? The pass was completed and stood yet many people here kinda giggled that wee got away with one.

I think most of our fans are smart enough to not insist in the face of overwhelming evidence.

[hawkeyes]

Unfortunate that he feels the need to pad his INT stats....

[deedub75]

A knee is either down or it is not. When a player is down, it matters not what action he was in the course of executing. As long as the ball is in his possession while a knee contacts the field, the play is dead, the ball is dead.

Wasn't there a play a few weeks ago wherein Luck threw from his knees and it appeared a defender had contact with him? The pass was completed and stood yet many people here kinda giggled that wee got away with one.

I think most of our fans are smart enough to not insist in the face of overwhelming evidence.

I posted about that play a couple of posts earlier. Luck threw from his knees and it really should have been a sack but it was called a completed pass. We got away with one there. Yesterday, Luck threw from his knees and it was an interception. We weren't happy about that. If anything the refs are being consistent with calling that play. However they are "interpreting" that rule, they're being consistent about it.

[TKnight24]

The bad call would never have taken place had Luck not thrown the ball in such a desperate disposition.....directly into the chest of a defender.

Yeah....it was a bad call but we were looking for a bailout and we didn't get one that time....tough cookies.

This is at least the third INT he's thrown while refusing to take the sack. Very typical rookie mistake.

All that said; It was a sack and when the knee is down, the play is dead, period.

He threw the ball from his knees at Stanford. He wanted to try it again

[tyvon19]

I posted about that play a couple of posts earlier. Luck threw from his knees and it really should have been a sack but it was called a completed pass. We got away with one there. Yesterday, Luck threw from his knees and it was an interception. We weren't happy about that. If anything the refs are being consistent with calling that play. However they are "interpreting" that rule, they're being consistent about it.

Consistent? lol they had the replay and STILL got it wrong. I understand the refs usually give the benefit of the doubt like they did when the Texans RB scored the TD against the lions because they can always review it later. They did the right thing in calling it a pick on the field because even if they are wrong they can review it later. This is the 'consistency' you are talking about. Refs are trained to call it as they see it and if they are wrong they can always review it whether by a challenge or if its a turnover/td. The problem here is they blew the call even after the review. Clearly shows his knee is down and the ball is in hand. You're backpedaling on your original post.

[JoKeR]

These kind of plays make me so nervous. I am not sure who Luck was trying to throw to. There was no Colt player near enough to make a play. That being said, he was down, and the refs missed the call. You should have heard the crowd around us when that happened! Also, the Bethea PI call was ridiculous!! There also was a call on Fokou for holding that was way off base!! Very bad crew yesterday!

Luck was trying to pass it to Wayne but a LBer was in the way. For a split sec he was open to make the play. The LBer started moving toward Wayne when Luck scrambled.

[JoKeR]

so, even if he had went all the way down, he would have been able to still throw the pass because his arm was moving forward? At what point does the play end? It is not a matter of "pleasing people", its just a discussion on a horribly bad call that could have cost the game. imo

Yeah after the review it was like they just wanted to ignore the rules because the Titans made a good play. At what point do the refs get to make it up their own rules.

[FireJimCaldwell]

The rule book/case book that I have basically says both, but it doesn't give a specific example that is similar to this play.

It does address the arm moving forward starting the pass when dealing with pass vs. empty hand and the glorious TUCK rule.

Based on the footage we all saw at home, it is easy to argue that they blew the call. His knee was down before the ball released his hands. That is all well and fine from our perspective.

Key word being our perspective, our meaning the viewers. CBS/FOX/ESPN/NBC have a truck on site that has a producer pushing what is shown to the viewers. They have the super zoom, and the ability to pause frame by frame. It's what they do for a living.

Ref's perspective

The thing that we still don't know, x years into instant replay's rebirth, is what exactly they see, what they control, or who controls what they see. It's been said that they have access to the same feeds that we as fans see on our tv's. That is all well in fine, but do they have the capability to pause the footage? Slow it down frame by frame? Zoom in with super-duper zoom cam? Do they have a remote control like they do when they are at home on the couch? Are they having to communicate with someone that is controlling the footage? Who knows for sure at this point.

The ref might not have seen the image that is posted numerous times. He might have not have had the ability to zoom in and freeze it. It's been said that their footage is raw and does not contain the yellow lines when they are reviewing whether or not that yardline was obtained or not.

To a fan on the couch, in a stadium, sports bar or wherever it look as if the call was blown. The ref might not have been afforded the luxuries that we as fans saw on tv.

Someone mentioned that if the play had been a completed pass, that the Titans would have challenged it. I'm not certain the ruling would have changed since it was reviewed. The knee being down/possession of the ball had to be the main thing they were looking at in this review. So I doubt that it would have changed.

Maybe some talking head will go on a rant about it and more can be uncovered about what the ref actually sees under the hood, what does he control, and if he's not controlling it, then who is?

[deedub75]

Consistent? lol they had the replay and STILL got it wrong. I understand the refs usually give the benefit of the doubt like they did when the Texans RB scored the TD against the lions because they can always review it later. They did the right thing in calling it a pick on the field because even if they are wrong they can review it later. This is the 'consistency' you are talking about. Refs are trained to call it as they see it and if they are wrong they can always review it whether by a challenge or if its a turnover/td. The problem here is they blew the call even after the review. Clearly shows his knee is down and the ball is in hand. You're backpedaling on your original post.

It's not as simple as calling it as they see it and then reviewing it later. There is always going to be problems with replays because it depends on what's called on the field. It was called a pass and an interception on the field. From what I saw, the call could have gone either way just like Brady's tuck rule. Usually, when a play is close enough to go either way it stays with the ruling on the field.

[Coltswarriors]

It wasn't a pick. Ref completely blew that call.

[PrincetonTiger]

Luck was trying to pass it to Wayne but a LBer was in the way. For a split sec he was open to make the play. The LBer started moving toward Wayne when Luck scrambled.

agreed

[deedub75]

The rule book/case book that I have basically says both, but it doesn't give a specific example that is similar to this play.

It does address the arm moving forward starting the pass when dealing with pass vs. empty hand and the glorious TUCK rule.

Based on the footage we all saw at home, it is easy to argue that they blew the call. His knee was down before the ball released his hands. That is all well and fine from our perspective.

Key word being our perspective, our meaning the viewers. CBS/FOX/ESPN/NBC have a truck on site that has a producer pushing what is shown to the viewers. They have the super zoom, and the ability to pause frame by frame. It's what they do for a living.

Ref's perspective

The thing that we still don't know, x years into instant replay's rebirth, is what exactly they see, what they control, or who controls what they see. It's been said that they have access to the same feeds that we as fans see on our tv's. That is all well in fine, but do they have the capability to pause the footage? Slow it down frame by frame? Zoom in with super-duper zoom cam? Do they have a remote control like they do when they are at home on the couch? Are they having to communicate with someone that is controlling the footage? Who knows for sure at this point.

The ref might not have seen the image that is posted numerous times. He might have not have had the ability to zoom in and freeze it. It's been said that their footage is raw and does not contain the yellow lines when they are reviewing whether or not that yardline was obtained or not.

To a fan on the couch, in a stadium, sports bar or wherever it look as if the call was blown. The ref might not have been afforded the luxuries that we as fans saw on tv.

Someone mentioned that if the play had been a completed pass, that the Titans would have challenged it. I'm not certain the ruling would have changed since it was reviewed. The knee being down/possession of the ball had to be the main thing they were looking at in this review. So I doubt that it would have changed.

Maybe some talking head will go on a rant about it and more can be uncovered about what the ref actually sees under the hood, what does he control, and if he's not controlling it, then who is?

I was at the game and from the "under the hood" film playing at the stadium, there wasn't enough information to overturn the ruling. No one around me was really surprised that the ruling was upheld, including me.

I was the one who said that if it would have been a completed pass, the Titans would have challenged it and the completed pass would have been upheld.

[FireJimCaldwell]

It's not as simple as calling it as they see it and then reviewing it later. There is always going to be problems with replays because it depends on what's called on the field. It was called a pass and an interception on the field. From what I saw, the call could have gone either way just like Brady's tuck rule. Usually, when a play is close enough to go either way it stays with the ruling on the field.

Very true. If it would have been ruled a sack on the field and Tennessee challenges then it would have likely be hard to over turn as well. It all depends on what the ref had access to and what he actually saw.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I was at the game and from the "under the hood" film playing at the stadium, there wasn't enough information to overturn the ruling. No one around me was really surprised that the ruling was upheld, including me.

I was the one who said that if it would have been a completed pass, the Titans would have challenged it and the completed pass would have been upheld.

At the stadium are you actually seeing everything he sees? Or all the footage being played at home? When the play in question is a first down ruling do they show the yellow line on the screen at the stadium?

[oldunclemark]

I posted on another thread that maybe it was the right call as it might be whether or not his arm had started forward. I did just find that this is indeed the case. What constituted that being a pass was not whether or not the knee hit before the ball left Lucks hand. The replay had to show evidence that his arm didn't start forward and I dont think that was conclusive looking at the replay. NFL channel has it wrong for sure , I wonder if ESPN has the ruke wrong also. The two calls for holding and PI sure were bad ones. But then again the missed false start was as bad as it gets.

From Wikipedia...

The moment that a forward pass begins is important to the game. The pass begins the moment the passer's arm begins to move forward

doesnt matter.....posession trumps intent....at least that's what I thought...

I dont think the pass would have been allowed had he completed it...to a Colt...and it shouldnt have been

[oldunclemark]

His arm moving forward means nothing. He still had possession of the ball. That means it was a sack. Also, I want the game to be called right, regardless of the outcome. No team should ever lose a game because the refs made terrible calls. Luckily, we still pulled the game out, but when instant replay is there and the call is obvious, it has to be called right.

Exactly,...you cannot pass or fumble after you are down..that is the end of the play.

I cant find a rule that says a pass is complete if you simply begun the throwing motion but not completed it before you are officially down.

That one was pretty obvious...like the Lions/Texans on Thanksgiving day.....the refs missed it and the replay guy felt he couldnt overrule the obvious bad call on the field.

..that's a flaw in the replay system.......The upstairs offical shouldnt have to overrule the call on the field...

On a challenge...he should be allowed make his own judgement because he has more to go on

[deedub75]

At the stadium you are actually seeing everything he sees? Or all the footage being played at home? When the play in question is a first down ruling do they show the yellow line on the screen at the stadium?

When the show the "under the hood" footage we're supposed to see exactly what the ref is looking at. We see when they fast forward, rewind, and pause the video. Refs see the raw footage filmed by the NFL and not the footage with the yellow lines that are generated by the TV producers. From what they showed on the jumbotron, I didn't see any information that would make them overturn the ruling.

At one point I thought they were taking fans under the hood on TV too. Maybe they don't do it anymore.

[SilentHill]

I was also at the game, the camera angle they used to determine this play was not the one shown in this post which clearly shows he was down, the one they had on the screen at the stadium was the side angle and it was inconclusive.

Everyone was Booing at the stadium. lol