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vinsanity

Bruce Arians' offense

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10 guys within 7 yards of us again? I'm gonna be sore. I know I'l just flip it Reggie, now that I see he is now also running some of these short routes...

Good observations. However, I would love to see the breakdown of how often that happened. Secondly, we don't know the read progression. Luck is mostly throwing the ball long. So maybe Luck is the one choosing to go long all the time, but my gut feeling is that the underneath guys are the 3rd or 4th receiver on the patterns.

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Good observations. However, I would love to see the breakdown of how often that happened. Secondly, we don't know the read progression. Luck is mostly throwing the ball long. So maybe Luck is the one choosing to go long all the time, but my gut feeling is that the underneath guys are the 3rd or 4th receiver on the patterns.

There was an interesting article from Bleacher Report after the Lions game last week about this general subject.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1433597-afc-south-all-22-review-arians-offense-means-high-risk-reward-for-andrew-luck

If you buy into the above BR article, those images (just a handful of examples for 54 pass attempts...), and what is the general eye test for most of us, the progressions are long to short (as they should be) more often than not, and the OL can't support it. I'm not sure I believe the underlying theme of the BR article, that the aggressiveness and lack of check-downs are deliberate and intentional, to force a quicker learning curve. But the results, whether they are BA's design, OL related, rookie QB driven, or tons of youth at receivers (and they are all equal components to me), are a mixed bag. Great yards, always in games, ability to come back, but poor completion percentage, picks, and more down and distance issues which at least this year the Colts have survived.

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Good observations. However, I would love to see the breakdown of how often that happened. Secondly, we don't know the read progression. Luck is mostly throwing the ball long. So maybe Luck is the one choosing to go long all the time, but my gut feeling is that the underneath guys are the 3rd or 4th receiver on the patterns.

I watched a fair amount of film first half, not all but a good amount. There are guys underneath, but first read is almost always down the field, it seems. I truthfully don't think Luck is getting the time to progress to the check downs. The speed of the game is still too fast because the first reads probably do take too long for a horrific O-line. And yes, the check downs, quite often they are there, if they (like RB/FB) don't have to stay in and help block. But many times the down the field receiver breaks open and Luck hits him. Maybe one day Luck and the WR can progress to the point like Peyton, where those plays are timing routes. The ball gets released before receiver makes his breaks, and ball and receiver MUST be at the correct spot on time. That's what I'm hoping over the next couple years. And, the he can read faster and take what is given more often. I bet % goes up a lot, yds goes down a smidge. That'll work. But all the rooks have to get some 'seasoning' first. :)

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So now the issue is not that "we don't have short routes", it is the progression. When that is tossed out what will the next shibboleth be? The notion that a QBs progression would always go from longer routes (that take more time to develope) to shorter routes (that don't) is pretty silly. Sometimes the down and distance calls for the short route, sometimes the short route is simply the dump off. And it is always subject to the development of the play/protection and the resulting decision by the QB. Plus I'd be willing to wager that opposing DCs have decided to cut off those short routes as a general rule when playing a rookie QB. Some would do well to consider that it is opposing DC theory that is hindering underneath/dump offs and not BA at all.

Nevertheless, the problems we have are not scheme or progression or theory or doctrine yada yada yada. Our Oline is just not that sound vis-a-vis protection. As a result we are forced to keep guys in who might otherwise be bleeding into the flats or underneath. As was shown above, Luck does indeed have some underneath routes but chooses to go where he goes. So, the no short route nonsense should stop.

It just is what it is, once we get our Oline addressed in the offseason we should be better at protection and a lot of this BA second-guessing will fade away.

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Pagano still has input to his team. They listen to Arians, but Pagano isn't out of the loop. If he wasn't on board with Arians tactics, he would have already made his intentions known to him, as he has to Manusky. Pagano still watches and text's items to the players themselves. He has made alterations to the D, but continues to leave all O decisions to Arians, as mentioned in story below.

http://www.usatoday....pagano/1741905/

If we could run, Luck could pass better. Our run game is atrocious. we bail on it because it isn't effective and we have to keep up in scoring. Our o line was rag tag to begin with and now seems full of out of position practice squad material. And our adjustments after the half have been quite successful for the most part.

Ben never threw all that much at Pitt because they could and did run. Been still had higher sack rates and also a higher completion % than Luck does here. Luck is sacked 1 in every 18 drop backs. The numbers I researched over many seasons for Roethlisburger has been a sack about 10 drop backs. Lots of other QBs are sacked and hit as often as luck. (Rodgers anyone?) Yet they still have high TD numbers and high completion percentages. Lucks low numbers isn't anything but a Rookie throwing to 1 vet and a lot of other rookies. All of the rookies making mistakes along the way. Yet, through all of this, we are 8-4 and in the drivers seat for playoffs. We should not even be here, yet we are. And BA made it happen. He is 7 - 2 since taking over.

everything above is well known. having input and texting is miles from being around the team, coaches, etc everyday

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everything above is well known. having input and texting is miles from being around the team, coaches, etc everyday

But Pagano made changes to the D through Manusky. Article says as much. However, he has left all of the O alone. He sometimes coaches players individually via text. But Jim Irsay is clear, the team (for the time being) listens to one voice, and right now that one voice is that of Bruce Arians.

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I have serious concerns about Arians' offensive philosophy. He was run out of Pitt for not protecting Ben and being to pass happy and it has continued here. Look how the other teams Sea and Wash are setting their Rookie QB's up for success. RGIII has WR's running wide open on a consistent basis. Luck is throwing 15-20 yard passes into small pockets. Luck was a magician in the West Coast offense in college and his completion percentage his last 2 years at Stanford was over 70%. So he has it in him but our OC is not setting him up to be efficient. I have a lot of respect for what Arians has done as Interim HC and I thank him for that but I worry about his offense.

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I actually hope, however unlikely, that Arians gets a head coaching job next year and then Pagano brings in someone running more of a west coast offense. Basically, run what the 49ers do. I realize we don't have the personnel right now, but I think in the long run that will be how Luck is more successful. As I stated before, the NFL is setup now to where most teams take away long passes and give up short passes. I don't see why we play right into their hands. That says something for Luck's ability. I think any other rookie QB in his situation would crumble.

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I have serious concerns about Arians' offensive philosophy. He was run out of Pitt for not protecting Ben and being to pass happy and it has continued here. Look how the other teams Sea and Wash are setting their Rookie QB's up for success. RGIII has WR's running wide open on a consistent basis. Luck is throwing 15-20 yard passes into small pockets. Luck was a magician in the West Coast offense in college and his completion percentage his last 2 years at Stanford was over 70%. So he has it in him but our OC is not setting him up to be efficient. I have a lot of respect for what Arians has done as Interim HC and I thank him for that but I worry about his offense.

Why not let Luck learn and grow! Why stifle him in a dink and dunk system that would make Matt Cassell look relevant again? Go ahead andpick a WCO team to root for while I hope this miracle season under the "worst QB killing, horrible O scheme" OC/HC advance through the playoffs... in a season where we supposed to finish last and pick first again.

RW-No_32.jpg

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Why not let Luck learn and grow! Why stifle him in a dink and dunk system that would make Matt Cassell look relevant again? Go ahead andpick a WCO team to root for while I hope this miracle season under the "worst QB killing, horrible O scheme" OC/HC advance through the playoffs... in a season where we supposed to finish last and pick first again.

RW-No_32.jpg

stop acting melodramatic..the man is entitled to his opinion..

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In his press conference today, Arians said he wants Luck to take more checkdowns to the backs and TEs. Plus, you've seen a shift in the past few weeks to more quick hitting routes. So, they are moving somewhat in that direction. Hopefully, at some point they strike the right balance.

I'd also like to see Luck run more. The pass off Avery's face mask was fine and all, but given the game situation, I would rather have seen him run for the 1st. A FG puts you ahead, and a 53 yarder is no gimme.

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In his press conference today, Arians said he wants Luck to take more checkdowns to the backs and TEs. Plus, you've seen a shift in the past few weeks to more quick hitting routes. So, they are moving somewhat in that direction. Hopefully, at some point they strike the right balance.

I'd also like to see Luck run more. The pass off Avery's face mask was fine and all, but given the game situation, I would rather have seen him run for the 1st. A FG puts you ahead, and a 53 yarder is no gimme.

i would have rather seen avery catch it....but i know what u mean

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Why not let Luck learn and grow! Why stifle him in a dink and dunk system that would make Matt Cassell look relevant again? Go ahead andpick a WCO team to root for while I hope this miracle season under the "worst QB killing, horrible O scheme" OC/HC advance through the playoffs... in a season where we supposed to finish last and pick first again.

Zactly!

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In his press conference today, Arians said he wants Luck to take more checkdowns to the backs and TEs.

THAT'S AN IMPOSSIBILITY!! BA didn't do that in Pittsburgh! /sarcasm

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Where's the Steelers dude who was raving over Rapelisburger and yammering on about the Colts' Interim Head Coach?

Right here, surprised and encouraged by the number of people who "liked" my first post. It's always nice to make a good first impression. By the way, ad hominem attacks are another great way not to be taken seriously. In fact, your particular attack, though common, is borderline libelous nonetheless, considering it's based on accusations that so colossally failed to withstand the burden of proof that probable cause couldn't even be found. If all that's needed is one billionth of one gram of DNA, and police investigators and hospital staff can't even find that with their combined manpower and resources, then "jerk," "*," "womanizer," "sleazeball," "pervert," "*," "tool" and "fool" might all be suitable labels, but "criminal" is not.

Anyway, if we're going to keep insulting Roethlisberger's football intelligence, then I have some more questions: How is he even coachable if he's so dumb? How has Todd Haley had such a noticeable effect on his style of play that Bruce Arians never had? How has Haley been able to get Roethlisberger to buy into his system? How does Roethlisberger have statistically significant year-over-year improvements in TD percentage and sack percentage despite his offensive line and running game being as mediocre as they've ever been in the last five years? How was he included in discussions about the NFL MVP before his injury?

Conversely, why have I heard Andrew Luck suddenly being compared to Brett Favre in some circles? Luck was an excellent timing/precision passer at Stanford, and now all of a sudden he's being compared to a reckless gunslinger whose style of play is considered a relic in today's NFL? Hasn't Roethlisberger been labeled a reckless gunslinger despite not being one at all this season? What an odd and unexpected role reversal, no? What could possibly cause such an ironic turn of events? Maybe it has something to do with coaching.

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Right here, surprised and encouraged by the number of people who "liked" my first post. It's always nice to make a good first impression. By the way, ad hominem attacks are another great way not to be taken seriously. In fact, your particular attack, though common to the point of being trite, is borderline libelous, considering it's based on accusations that so colossally failed to withstand the burden of proof that probable cause couldn't even be found. If all that's needed is one billionth of one gram of DNA, and police investigators and hospital staff can't even find that with their combined manpower and resources, then "jerk," "*," "womanizer," "sleazeball," "pervert," "*," "tool" and "fool" might all be suitable labels, but "criminal" is not.

Anyway, if we're going to keep insulting Roethlisberger's football intelligence, then I have some more questions: How is he even coachable if he's so dumb? How has Todd Haley had such a noticeable effect on his style of play that Bruce Arians never had? How has Haley been able to get Roethlisberger to buy into his system? How does Roethlisberger have statistically significant year-over-year improvements in TD percentage and sack percentage despite his offensive line and running game being as mediocre as they've ever been in the last five years? How was he included in discussions about the NFL MVP before his injury?

Conversely, why have I heard Andrew Luck suddenly being compared to Brett Favre in some circles? Luck was an excellent timing/precision passer at Stanford, and now all of a sudden he's being compared to a reckless gunslinger whose style of play is considered a relic in today's NFL? Hasn't Roethlisberger been labeled a reckless gunslinger despite not being one at all this season? What an odd and unexpected role reversal, no? What could possibly cause such an ironic turn of events? Maybe it has something to do with coaching.

Don't worry, I think Brian Casserly IS Bruce, so he's just sticking up for himself. Look at his avatar. I swear that's Bruce, man. lol

Anyways, I'd like to see Ken Whistenhunt brought in to replace Arians if he's fired by the Cards after this season. I liked the offense he ran while in Pittsburgh and when he had a QB, he was equally successful in Arizona. Maybe he could even bring Russ Grimm over with him

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Don't worry, I think Brian Casserly IS Bruce, so he's just sticking up for himself. Look at his avatar. I swear that's Bruce, man. lol

Anyways, I'd like to see Ken Whistenhunt brought in to replace Arians if he's fired by the Cards after this season. I liked the offense he ran while in Pittsburgh and when he had a QB, he was equally successful in Arizona. Maybe he could even bring Russ Grimm over with him

Clearly he's not Bruce Arians. Ben and Bruce were best buds.

As for Ken Whisenhunt, I think the Cardinals would be foolish to fire him considering he made them relevant for the first time since the mid-1970's. That team is just a good QB away from being a serious contender. As it is right now, it reminds me of Bill Cowher's teams during the Kordell Stewart years: all defense, no offense.

I also believe that Todd Haley deserves some credit for the Cardinals' resurgence, considering he was their offensive coordinator when Kurt Warner was there. As far as I'm concerned, if Haley could help resurrect Warner's career and make Matt Cassel look good for a couple of years, then he's gotta be doing something right.

Whisenhunt's approach with Roethlisberger was very effective, but often misunderstood. He made things easier for Roethlisberger by emphasizing the running game, but also installed an efficient passing game to complement it. It worked beautifully. In 2005, Roethlisberger actually had the highest YPA and TD percentage of any QB in the NFL.

And the reason he didn't average a lot of pass attempts in those years was because they had a balanced running and passing attack in the first half of games that was so efficient that the Steelers would often have a comfortable lead by halftime, and then they could put the dagger in their opponents by about the middle of the third quarter and just run the ball and milk the clock afterwards. So he'd end up with, say, 23 attempts in a game, but 17 of them were in the first half and only six of them were in the second half. After helping build an insurmountable lead, he'd just hand the ball off and the Steelers could run the clock out.

By the way, Whisenhunt's offense also had a FB, which I believe helps a running game tremendously. Arians explicitly stated to the Pittsburgh media that he'd never have a true FB in his system when they asked where the FB went.

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stop acting melodramatic..the man is entitled to his opinion..

Well, he can certainly have it, but it's not going to happen anytime soon. So it's just wishful thinking.

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In his press conference today, Arians said he wants Luck to take more checkdowns to the backs and TEs. Plus, you've seen a shift in the past few weeks to more quick hitting routes. So, they are moving somewhat in that direction. Hopefully, at some point they strike the right balance.

I'd also like to see Luck run more. The pass off Avery's face mask was fine and all, but given the game situation, I would rather have seen him run for the 1st. A FG puts you ahead, and a 53 yarder is no gimme.

I couldn't believe all the check off options Luck had vs. the Titans when I re watched the game. He rarely looked to them. All of the things Luck needs to succeed is there, ecept experience and continued coaching. And of course, using those options, when called for, in a better balanced scheme is a smart move. And maybe the WCO fans would be much happier too.

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surprised and encouraged by the number of people who "liked" my first post.

Yeah, Sally Field said something similar back in 85 (she had a clique of "winners" who liked her as well)...

It's always nice to make a good first impression.

...and Mister Rogers said something similar to that back in 65...

By the way, ad hominem attacks are another great way not to be taken seriously.

...you really are a life coach aren't you...

In fact, your particular attack, though common, is borderline libelous nonetheless

...and of course part time personal injury attorney as well...

Anyway, if we're going to keep insulting Roethlisberger's football intelligence

...we're not. I am. And he has little to insult.

Anyway, I appreciated your boy's return & failure. You all keep pinning your hopes & dreams (& excuses) to that wagon. In the meantime we'll continue on to the playoffs with Bruce Arians and the Stanford grad. ;)

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I'm so confused as to why everyone seems to want to polarize our offense. It seems as though we MUST have either a pure vertical passing game or an exclusively dink and dunk system. What ever happened to moderation? I for one would prefer to see a few more of those incompletions turn into moderate gains on checkdown routes, in turn helping AL's completion percentage and efficiency. This will only further contribute to softening the coverage and being able to pick and choose when to take shots and sling it. I'm not asking for him to turn into Matt Cassel or even Alex Smith for that matter, but that's simply not going to happen regardless of what offense we have. It's not in Luck's DNA. All we need is a bit more time, along with an offseason, for Andrew to further develop his craft and learn when to take shots and when to settle for high percentage gains. Combine this learning curve with some retooling along the offensive line in the offseason and we will be fine. Reading some of these posts, you would think that we A.) have a reckless run and gun style offense or B.) need a conservative dink and dunk system. What we need is WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE. We just need to keep watering the plants and watch them grow. Now that's not to say I'm opposed to making some minimal changes and tweaks to our current system; but what Andrew Luck really needs is consistency. Let him blossom.

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...we're not. I am. And he has little to insult.

Anyway, I appreciated your boy's return & failure. You all keep pinning your hopes & dreams (& excuses) to that wagon. In the meantime we'll continue on to the playoffs with Bruce Arians and the Stanford grad. ;)

So it's Roethlisberger's fault that he led the team in rushing yards? It's his fault that he couldn't even throw a lateral pass without a blocker getting blasted by a defender into the path of the ball? It's his fault that the short-yardage running game failed to convert two 3rd-and-1's and a 4th-and-1 in the first half alone? Sounds more like the offensive line's fault than anything. Despite that, Roethlisberger was only sacked twice, and his sack percentage for the season dropped another decimal point to 5.3%.

Ah, he threw an INT, so that makes, what, five on the season now? That's one every other game. I've seen Drew Brees and Matt Ryan throw as many in one game this season as he's thrown in 10. Those two guys must be total imbeciles. Too bad Roethlisberger's INT percentage ticked up a decimal point to 1.4%. I guess he'll have to settle for having the third-lowest INT percentage in the NFL.

By the way, the Steelers still control their fate in terms of the playoffs, much to the dismay of many. You might want to postpone your laughter. Besides, did anybody take the Giants seriously as playoff contenders last December 18 when they fell to 7-7 after losing at home to a 5-9 Redskins team? Did anybody take the Cardinals seriously when they lost four of their last six games of the 2008 season?

Enjoy Bruce Arians. He's all yours now. His success as a head coach this season doesn't change the fact that he was fired from his previous job. The Rooney family had enough of him after five years. And the fact that he was fired despite the success the Steelers had between 2007 and 2011 illustrates how little the Rooney family felt that he had to do with it. In the meantime, I'll enjoy having an offensive coordinator who calls an occasional bad game, as opposed to calling an occasional good game like his predecessor.

Too bad David DeCastro blew out his knee. We probably could have used him the other day.

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I'm so confused as to why everyone seems to want to polarize our offense. It seems as though we MUST have either a pure vertical passing game or an exclusively dink and dunk system. What ever happened to moderation? I for one would prefer to see a few more of those incompletions turn into moderate gains on checkdown routes, in turn helping AL's completion percentage and efficiency. This will only further contribute to softening the coverage and being able to pick and choose when to take shots and sling it. I'm not asking for him to turn into Matt Cassel or even Alex Smith for that matter, but that's simply not going to happen regardless of what offense we have. It's not in Luck's DNA. All we need is a bit more time, along with an offseason, for Andrew to further develop his craft and learn when to take shots and when to settle for high percentage gains. Combine this learning curve with some retooling along the offensive line in the offseason and we will be fine. Reading some of these posts, you would think that we A.) have a reckless run and gun style offense or B.) need a conservative dink and dunk system. What we need is WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE. We just need to keep watering the plants and watch them grow. Now that's not to say I'm opposed to making some minimal changes and tweaks to our current system; but what Andrew Luck really needs is consistency. Let him blossom.

I know I'm in favor of Luck stopping the forced throws into tight coverage when a checkdown is available. I'm not in favor of major overhaul to the system. It appears (now that I'm going back and looking for them on recordings) that outlets are there, and getting more plentiful. it also appears Luck is going downfield because-

a. he thinks he can get it there

b. protection breakdowns not lending to finding the check down options

c. he just doesn't them unless they cross his sight of vision.

I don't know. He's just a good QB trying to make a play for his team. He's learning each and every day. We need to focus on getting a decent (I know we can't have great) running attack, and let check down here and there. That will really help, even the vertical passing aspect. Especially if pass blocking can improve.

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By the way, the Steelers still control their fate in terms of the playoffs...

No, Bruce Arians and the Colts control the Steelers' fate. ;)

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And 22 points per game is nothing to be scared of.

No...But with 6 rookies and basically everyone in their first year of this system playing with arguably the worst Oline in the league its very impressive.

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Guys-

Not sure how relevant it is, but BA said Manning was not even allowed to run no huddle until his second year, so Luck has already been given more than Manning was. I hope next year Luck is allowed to run no huddle, and call the plays himself. I am sure Pagano has realized Luck's strenghts of being mobile and to utilize them, and to give him more say in what is going on at the line of scrimmage, IMHO and of course a bit of hope

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No...But with 6 rookies and basically everyone in their first year of this system playing with arguably the worst Oline in the league its very impressive.

They are almost a full season in.. I can understand that argument 4 to 5 games in, but right now these guys know pretty much what to expect. They've pretty much flat-lined for the entire season and honestly haven't really gotten any better. I believe they are better than just 22 a game, however I don't think the offense as a whole is being utilized to their strengths but moreso to what a certain coach wants them to do and try to be, which obviously they aren't. Too much cuteness and not enough smart football on the offensive side of the ball. Sure, the record is great, but they made getting those wins much harder than it should have been.

I guess I'm not one to make excuses for guys who have been playing the game for a long time and are in the NFL for a reason. Like I said, the first couple of games, sure, but now? No...

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Guys-

Not sure how relevant it is, but BA said Manning was not even allowed to run no huddle until his second year, so Luck has already been given more than Manning was. I hope next year Luck is allowed to run no huddle, and call the plays himself. I am sure Pagano has realized Luck's strenghts of being mobile and to utilize them, and to give him more say in what is going on at the line of scrimmage, IMHO and of course a bit of hope

As a QB coach at that time I doubt he had much influence on what OC Tom Moore wanted to do. That was also Tom Moore's first year with the team.

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Why not let Luck learn and grow! Why stifle him in a dink and dunk system that would make Matt Cassell look relevant again? Go ahead andpick a WCO team to root for while I hope this miracle season under the "worst QB killing, horrible O scheme" OC/HC advance through the playoffs... in a season where we supposed to finish last and pick first again.

Yes we were written off, but you seem to be implying that the magic is down to the scheme whereas it's a really a number of factors, not least the talent of the Rookies and the motivational aspect of what the team has had to through.

If you want to be clinical about it are you really happy an asset we've invest a heck of a lot in, not least giving up Peyton for is getting beat on like he's done something wrong EVERY week? You can say well heck with that O-line what do you expect. I say with that O-line what the heck are you doing making him hold the ball that long.

Don't get me wrong BA has done a fantastic job this season stepping in as HC, but his scheme is still bloody minded in it's stubbornness and worries me. Of course if we did have a O-line it would be a different story but if wishes were dreams and all that.

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I couldn't believe all the check off options Luck had vs. the Titans when I re watched the game. He rarely looked to them. All of the things Luck needs to succeed is there, ecept experience and continued coaching. And of course, using those options, when called for, in a better balanced scheme is a smart move. And maybe the WCO fans would be much happier too.

Ha I'm not such a WCO fan, more a I want Andrew Luck in one piece fan. I agree though that the decision making once the ball in his hands is his and not BA's so if he doesn't look to his check downs it's on him. But we don't know what the progressions are.

Like the new avatar btw :)

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They are almost a full season in.. I can understand that argument 4 to 5 games in, but right now these guys know pretty much what to expect. They've pretty much flat-lined for the entire season and honestly haven't really gotten any better. I believe they are better than just 22 a game, however I don't think the offense as a whole is being utilized to their strengths but moreso to what a certain coach wants them to do and try to be, which obviously they aren't. Too much cuteness and not enough smart football on the offensive side of the ball. Sure, the record is great, but they made getting those wins much harder than it should have been.

I guess I'm not one to make excuses for guys who have been playing the game for a long time and are in the NFL for a reason. Like I said, the first couple of games, sure, but now? No...

Really? You give everyone a month? A single month to adapt to the speed and violence of the NFL, while learning the complex playbooks that the NFL requires? wow.

Sure they where drafted to the NFL for a reason...the same reason as everyone else so that certainty doesnt give them an advantage over everyone else to lead a prolific offense..And yes they are almost a full season in, and that is why we have seen the improvement of TY Hilton (who, remember struggled with drops early on), Coby Fleener has begun to make plays he wasnt making in week 4. Vick Ballard wasnt the starter early on but has taken that job and run with it. Brazill is now getting playing time and even scored a TD...Not bad for a rookie taken in the 6th huh? Ask Mathis how he did his rookie year..would you have predicted him to become the player he has been after his first year? No..So why do you expect these guys to? Andrew Luck has played great, despite being behind a horrid and deteriorating offensive line. (which is the number 1 reason why this offense isnt living up to your unreasonable expectations).

This is an aggressive offensive system, BA does like to take shots...But we also got 2 extremely fast wrs in avery and Hilton, an athletic TE in Fleener and a crafty vet and excellent route runner in Reggie. Why wouldnt we want to? And yes, most plays do have a built in checkdown, that Andrew Luck is more then welcome to take. So i dont see how this system is holding him back. maybe combination of having a weak Oline for the first time in his career, mixed in with the speed of the defense is making him rush or ignore his reads. Isnt that a possibility?

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Really? You give everyone a month? A single month to adapt to the speed and violence of the NFL, while learning the complex playbooks that the NFL requires? wow.

Sure they where drafted to the NFL for a reason...the same reason as everyone else so that certainty doesnt give them an advantage over everyone else to lead a prolific offense..And yes they are almost a full season in, and that is why we have seen the improvement of TY Hilton (who, remember struggled with drops early on), Coby Fleener has begun to make plays he wasnt making in week 4. Vick Ballard wasnt the starter early on but has taken that job and run with it. Brazill is now getting playing time and even scored a TD...Not bad for a rookie taken in the 6th huh? Ask Mathis how he did his rookie year..would you have predicted him to become the player he has been after his first year? No..So why do you expect these guys to? Andrew Luck has played great, despite being behind a horrid and deteriorating offensive line. (which is the number 1 reason why this offense isnt living up to your unreasonable expectations).

This is an aggressive offensive system, BA does like to take shots...But we also got 2 extremely fast wrs in avery and Hilton, an athletic TE in Fleener and a crafty vet and excellent route runner in Reggie. Why wouldnt we want to? And yes, most plays do have a built in checkdown, that Andrew Luck is more then welcome to take. So i dont see how this system is holding him back. maybe combination of having a weak Oline for the first time in his career, mixed in with the speed of the defense is making him rush or ignore his reads. Isnt that a possibility?

Really? You give everyone a month? A single month to adapt to the speed and violence of the NFL, while learning the complex playbooks that the NFL requires? wow.

They have rookie mini-camps and OTA's that are in May and June. Countless voluntary workouts in between, which I believe rookies are required to participate in unless there is a reason like Luck's which a player has yet to graduate and isn't allowed to participate, AND training camp. That's before they even play a game. Then there are the 4 preseason games. A little over 4 months to get acquainted with the NFL and to adapt to the "speed and violence" of the game. I was giving them another 4-5 weeks after that and that's being generous. As I said, the rookie excuse is pretty much gone after 4-5 weeks. I guess my interpretation of "rookie mistake" is MUCH different than yours.

And yes they are almost a full season in, and that is why we have seen the improvement of TY Hilton (who, remember struggled with drops early on)

So, to you, drops are considered a rookie mistake? That's called execution as I'm sure he was learning to catch at a very early age.

Coby Fleener has begun to make plays he wasnt making in week 4.

Had 6 catches for 82 yards in the Chicago game WEEK 1. He couldn't catch a cold in the preseason.

Ask Mathis how he did his rookie year..would you have predicted him to become the player he has been after his first year?

Mathis was a 4th round draft pick and was primarily a special teams guy the whole first year. Once he got in the DE rotation, the following year, he shined, and I have no doubts that if he would have been put in the rotation from the start he wouldn't have had any issues then.

Andrew Luck has played great, despite being behind a horrid and deteriorating offensive line. (which is the number 1 reason why this offense isnt living up to your unreasonable expectations).

Of course its his O-line thats causing him to throw into double and triple coverage, staring down his receivers, or holding on to the ball too long /sarcasm. Those are HIS choices, NOT what his O-line is MAKING him do. Obviously we have differing opinions on Luck. He's played ok, but has pretty much plateaued so far. He's still making the same decisions he was earlier in the season. What he did early on isn't much different from what he's done now. Sure he's thrown for a crap ton of yards, but as I tried to explain to someone else on here POINTS win games NOT yards, and we are barely getting enough points to squeak these wins out.

Unreasonable expectations? Why? Because I feel the offense isn't being used to help their deficiencies along the line? We can all see that the O-line can't hold up for the time required to run these plays, however why is it that our Coach continues to put that line AND Luck in helpless situations?

This is an aggressive offensive system, BA does like to take shots...But we also got 2 extremely fast wrs in avery and Hilton, an athletic TE in Fleener and a crafty vet and excellent route runner in Reggie. Why wouldnt we want to?

As you just stated in the quote above "despite being behind a horrid and deteriorating offensive line", why would you continue running plays that you know the O-line can't withstand in?

So i dont see how this system is holding him back.

Its got nothing to do with holding him back, which is the argument of some of the people on here. Its got everything to do with using the players to their strengths and playing smart football, not "fancy" football. THAT's been my whole point and why I believe the team (offense) is better than they've shown. Luck went from being one of the smartest, accurate QB's in college to the reincarnation of Brett Favre in the NFL. Point blank, he's being asked to do and be more than he has to, which is indirectly affecting the guys in front of him and around him.

Again, I'm not going to sit here and play the "rookie excuse" card. I GUARANTEE these guys wouldn't sit here and blame their mistakes on the part of being a "rookie".

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Really? You give everyone a month? A single month to adapt to the speed and violence of the NFL, while learning the complex playbooks that the NFL requires? wow.

They have rookie mini-camps and OTA's that are in May and June. Countless voluntary workouts in between, which I believe rookies are required to participate in unless there is a reason like Luck's which a player has yet to graduate and isn't allowed to participate, AND training camp. That's before they even play a game. Then there are the 4 preseason games. A little over 4 months to get acquainted with the NFL and to adapt to the "speed and violence" of the game. I was giving them another 4-5 weeks after that and that's being generous. As I said, the rookie excuse is pretty much gone after 4-5 weeks. I guess my interpretation of "rookie mistake" is MUCH different than yours.

And yes they are almost a full season in, and that is why we have seen the improvement of TY Hilton (who, remember struggled with drops early on)

So, to you, drops are considered a rookie mistake? That's called execution as I'm sure he was learning to catch at a very early age.

Coby Fleener has begun to make plays he wasnt making in week 4.

Had 6 catches for 82 yards in the Chicago game WEEK 1. He couldn't catch a cold in the preseason.

Ask Mathis how he did his rookie year..would you have predicted him to become the player he has been after his first year?

Mathis was a 4th round draft pick and was primarily a special teams guy the whole first year. Once he got in the DE rotation, the following year, he shined, and I have no doubts that if he would have been put in the rotation from the start he wouldn't have had any issues then.

Andrew Luck has played great, despite being behind a horrid and deteriorating offensive line. (which is the number 1 reason why this offense isnt living up to your unreasonable expectations).

Of course its his O-line thats causing him to throw into double and triple coverage, staring down his receivers, or holding on to the ball too long /sarcasm. Those are HIS choices, NOT what his O-line is MAKING him do. Obviously we have differing opinions on Luck. He's played ok, but has pretty much plateaued so far. He's still making the same decisions he was earlier in the season. What he did early on isn't much different from what he's done now. Sure he's thrown for a crap ton of yards, but as I tried to explain to someone else on here POINTS win games NOT yards, and we are barely getting enough points to squeak these wins out.

Unreasonable expectations? Why? Because I feel the offense isn't being used to help their deficiencies along the line? We can all see that the O-line can't hold up for the time required to run these plays, however why is it that our Coach continues to put that line AND Luck in helpless situations?

This is an aggressive offensive system, BA does like to take shots...But we also got 2 extremely fast wrs in avery and Hilton, an athletic TE in Fleener and a crafty vet and excellent route runner in Reggie. Why wouldnt we want to?

As you just stated in the quote above "despite being behind a horrid and deteriorating offensive line", why would you continue running plays that you know the O-line can't withstand in?

So i dont see how this system is holding him back.

Its got nothing to do with holding him back, which is the argument of some of the people on here. Its got everything to do with using the players to their strengths and playing smart football, not "fancy" football. THAT's been my whole point and why I believe the team (offense) is better than they've shown. Luck went from being one of the smartest, accurate QB's in college to the reincarnation of Brett Favre in the NFL. Point blank, he's being asked to do and be more than he has to, which is indirectly affecting the guys in front of him and around him.

Again, I'm not going to sit here and play the "rookie excuse" card. I GUARANTEE these guys wouldn't sit here and blame their mistakes on the part of being a "rookie".

Luck and the other rookies on offense will be fine. I agree on some of your points about Luck as far as staring down some receivers (usually Wayne) and trying to force it to a receiver at times (usually Wayne). However,it does not matter what system is in place, the OL simply cannot give Luck protection. It is the reason Luck is under so much pressure on almost every single snap and he has turned into "Brett Farve" as you termed him. He is trying to make a play happen on every snap, and sometimes makes an ill-advised "Brett Farve" throw. He also holds onto the ball too long sometimes. These are all very common rookie QB mistakes. Despite this, the problem still stems from the OL. Not Luck and not BA's scheme, which has been shown to have check downs in it. Now, I do agree that Luck should use his check down receivers more than he does instead of favoring the long ball at all times, and I assume that is one of the mistakes you refer to that you say he keeps making, but that will come in time. At this point whether we win or lose hinges on Luck. That is a lot to ask of a rookie QB. Most of the time he delivers, but sometimes he doesn't.

And to expect these rookies to be playing like veterans at any point in their first year is pretty unrealistic/unreasonable, even if it is a rookie of the caliber of Luck. Sometimes it takes multiple seasons before players come into their own. To expect it after eight or nine games is just asking to be frustrated.

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First and foremost I do not take sides I just know by history and by repetitive observation as to what type of play caller Bruce Arians is. I have been vocal since day one of training camp that he was a mistake. But I for one do not think it is the system. This system could have record breaking numbers. But I believe its the quirks of said system that Arians implements. Also I must define why I speak out against Bruce Arians' offensive philosophies.

1. Andrew Luck has potential, I would like to see that potential maximized here in Indy.

2. I have rooted and cheered for Peyton Manning for the past 13 years... I do not want to ride the coat tails of a great QB anymore... I want the team to help him win SuperBowls like oh so fortunate Brady has.

3. Andrew Luck like Ben is starting to for awful habits... habits like Ben who they did not have before when they were in College...

4. Andrew Luck's health... Simply he is at danger every game and because of his natural size he is durable and is lasting... but how long?

With all of these reasons given as to why I will now explain what it is that I do not like about the BA quirks in this system. I will also state that I sadly did not get to watch the past 2 games so I can not say if this is what has happened then.

1. This system requires by design a run game. Not only any run game but a run game with consistent logical attempts. Do not get me wrong this is not a ground and pund offense but it does need to have an aspect of run threat. This is why Donald Brown is the better choice for this offense. We do not need a 150 yard rusher who punds his way 5 yards per carry every down. We need a back who can take it to the house any time he touches the ball so that when said running back is there the defense can hesitate enough for the play to develop.

2. The long plays by design are not what the problem is. It is the routine of sending every single receiver on a deep without either A. not informing the back he is a viable receiving option and/or B. the running back is told not to. It is the circumstance that we call the long plays that is also a problem. When we get behind by a touchdown... we completely lose the want to run the ball and we throw throw throw. Good coached teams know this and when they get the lead they send the rushers with ears pinned over and over and over. and instead of us throwing one step drops and/or some type of run/pass play with the running back we still force the developing throws... Giving the opposing defense a warm welcome to rush and hit Luck over and over. This is why we lose big. I hostly believe we could have beat the patriots this year easily. We showed what our long game could do when it was clicking but we never adjusted to what Belichek came up with to stop it... which of course leads to...

3. Adjustments and micromanagement of the team. I do not question Arian's abillity to motivate a team to do great things, I ALSO do not question that he can adjust his offenses when he has physically seen what they can do ex. our second half stats this year. But I do question his ability to do basic coaching abilities like calling plays and managing the team. He does not adjust to current action on field nor tendencies that teams develop within a drive... he does not play to players strengths... he depends on the abilities of players to make what he wants to happen happen. and if said players are not good enough he looks for better players... That is not a recipe for success.

So again why do I personally speak out against BA? because I'm not fine with just getting regular season wins... I'm not fine with going to the playoffs and not being able to compete with better teams... I'm also not fine with a QB going to waste like Peyton Manning did, nor do I want Luck to become the next Brett Farve or Alex Smith. I want Superbowls, and Luck to be an elite... and last I checked we don't have Dick L. as our D-Cooridinator to carry us, we have Andrew Luck.

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I didn't quite know where to put this, but wanted to share. Tom Moore has been with the Titans for two weeks, and already they're running old Indy plays, specifically "Levels," one of my favorites. In our game against them this past Sunday, halfway through the first quarter, the Titans had a 2nd and 7 with about 7:30 on the clock. Two receivers lined up to the right, the inside receiver (Cook) runs a ten yard in route, the outside receiver runs a five yard in route underneath, against zone coverage, and Locker throws the ball to the outside receiver (Britt) who gains a first down.

Several things struck me about this play, but pertaining to the primary thought in this thread, Locker has just enough time to take a three step drop, check the safety, and throw to Britt. Freeney was going to beat the left tackle, and was about a third of a second from getting to Locker.

These are the kinds of plays that just make sense, especially with a young quarterback. As soon as Locker saw zone coverage, he knew where the ball was going. It was an easy throw, it moved the chains, it kept him away from the pass rush, it frustrated Freeney, etc.

I don't know if the Titans already had this play in their repertoire; it's likely, since Moore is just a consultant, kind of diagnosing the offense more than anything else. And they played against Manning twice a year for 12 years, so it's not like they didn't know this play existed. Munchak was part of the Fisher staff; he's aware of the good ol' Indy routes. Still, it would be nice if we could do some of this in our offense. It takes pressure off of the line and makes things a little easier for the quarterback.

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I keep looking at this thread title thinking I'm going to see BA's criminal record. I need my eyes checked. :highfive2:

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"First and foremost I do not take sides"......and......"I have been vocal since day one of training camp that he was a mistake".

:)

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Right here, surprised and encouraged by the number of people who "liked" my first post. It's always nice to make a good first impression. By the way, ad hominem attacks are another great way not to be taken seriously. In fact, your particular attack, though common, is borderline libelous nonetheless, considering it's based on accusations that so colossally failed to withstand the burden of proof that probable cause couldn't even be found. If all that's needed is one billionth of one gram of DNA, and police investigators and hospital staff can't even find that with their combined manpower and resources, then "jerk," "*," "womanizer," "sleazeball," "pervert," "*," "tool" and "fool" might all be suitable labels, but "criminal" is not.

Anyway, if we're going to keep insulting Roethlisberger's football intelligence, then I have some more questions: How is he even coachable if he's so dumb? How has Todd Haley had such a noticeable effect on his style of play that Bruce Arians never had? How has Haley been able to get Roethlisberger to buy into his system? How does Roethlisberger have statistically significant year-over-year improvements in TD percentage and sack percentage despite his offensive line and running game being as mediocre as they've ever been in the last five years? How was he included in discussions about the NFL MVP before his injury?

Conversely, why have I heard Andrew Luck suddenly being compared to Brett Favre in some circles? Luck was an excellent timing/precision passer at Stanford, and now all of a sudden he's being compared to a reckless gunslinger whose style of play is considered a relic in today's NFL? Hasn't Roethlisberger been labeled a reckless gunslinger despite not being one at all this season? What an odd and unexpected role reversal, no? What could possibly cause such an ironic turn of events? Maybe it has something to do with coaching.

 

-grin-

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A good source told me that Bruce Arians wouldn't let Andrew Luck have an extra glass of milk at dinner the other night.

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Ballard needs 20 plus carries  game.  He showed me something vs the Texans.  I wasnt to high on him before that game but he has the potential to be a good back in the NFL. 

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