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Greenoughrunner

Luck vs rg3

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Robert's reads are pretty easy

please elaborate - describe the read progression -- You have your X running a deep post route, the Z running a 10-15 yard dig, the TE on a quick out, play-action to Morris from the pistol formation with the FB to Griffin's right. Let's say the defense is in a single high look with man underneath.

:P

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I refuse to feel bad because I don't feel Robert is advanced enough mentally to make the reads/decisions/playcalls that Andrew makes weekly. I'm not taking anything away from his physical ability. Robert's reads are pretty easy

So...it's Griffin's fault if his first and second option are open immediately?

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So...it's Griffin's fault if his first and second option are open immediately?

No, it's not his fault. I would simply say that it is easier to project Luck's ability to continue making these reads into the future than RG3, as Griffin will endure more of a learning curve when D's begin to adjust to his running abilities and said routes are no longer immediately available.

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No, it's not his fault. I would simply say that it is easier to project Luck's ability to continue making these reads into the future than RG3, as Griffin will endure more of a learning curve when D's begin to adjust to his running abilities and said routes are no longer immediately available.

Eh, perhaps. But I have seen Griffin extend plays in a Tebowesque way, running around in the backfield while keeping his eyes down field the whole time...and making the 23 yard completion on third down. Reminds me quite a bit of Rodgers too, combined with his accuracy.

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Eh, perhaps. But I have seen Griffin extend plays in a Tebowesque way, running around in the backfield while keeping his eyes down field the whole time...and making the 23 yard completion on third down. Reminds me quite a bit of Rodgers too, combined with his accuracy.

I can't disagree with any of that. RG3 does have some tremendous instincts, and he very well may continue that ability to deliver those strikes. I just think that we have seen Luck do it beyond his first few reads (ie Avery a 5th read in Detroit), whereas RG3 hasn't really had to yet. Simply for this reason of the unknown I think its easier to project Luck's ability to keep it up. Not to say RG3 won't be able to, just that we don't know yet.

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PFF put out percentage Stats of throws by QB's that go 10 yards or less for all you stating RG3 throws only short passes. Well it looks as though there is some pretty good QB's that throw more short passes then RG3 heres the stats......the short pass argument.. passes 10 yards or less RG3 74.6%, Brady 81%, Ryan 73%, Manning 74.1%, Rogers 73.4%

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PFF put out percentage Stats of throws by QB's that go 10 yards or less for all you stating RG3 throws only short passes. Well it looks as though there is some pretty good QB's that throw more short passes then RG3 heres the stats......the short pass argument.. passes 10 yards or less RG3 74.6%, Brady 81%, Ryan 73%, Manning 74.1%, Rogers 73.4%

I've long came to the conclusion that people on see what they want to see. The bread and butter of the WCO is the short, quick pass. Another fact that is overlooked is touchdowns over 20+ yards and who is leading in the category. Cherry picking is the name of the game. Everybody loves Peyton but his strength was never his long ball. It was reading the defense and methodically dissecting them with the short pass until the long ball opened up (and yes, I've been following Peyton Manning since '94). It's all a perception thing, like Sundays win. As awesome as the comeback was, people overlook the fact that his completion percentage was under 45% and his 3 interceptions kind of put them in the position to where they had to comeback. That's why when it comes to gauging players, I look at it with objectivity. Everybody is talking about Seattle's defense without realizing this was the same defense that they had and didn't make it to the playoffs. Also, he led a pretty impressive comeback also, against a better team. I just say we all take this season of awesomeness in and just let it be. *looks around and shrugs*
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I've long came to the conclusion that people on see what they want to see. The bread and butter of the WCO is the short, quick pass. Another fact that is overlooked is touchdowns over 20+ yards and who is leading in the category. Cherry picking is the name of the game. Everybody loves Peyton but his strength was never his long ball. It was reading the defense and methodically dissecting them with the short pass until the long ball opened up (and yes, I've been following Peyton Manning since '94). It's all a perception thing, like Sundays win. As awesome as the comeback was, people overlook the fact that his completion percentage was under 45% and his 3 interceptions kind of put them in the position to where they had to comeback. That's why when it comes to gauging players, I look at it with objectivity. Everybody is talking about Seattle's defense without realizing this was the same defense that they had and didn't make it to the playoffs. Also, he led a pretty impressive comeback also, against a better team. I just say we all take this season of awesomeness in and just let it be. *looks around and shrugs*

People will overlook completion percentage because in this offense it doesn't really matter. This is not a dink and dunk offense with high percentage throws. This is a vertical offense that is high risk and high reward. There are going to be incompletions and there are going to be turnovers. There are also going to be huge plays. Huge plays like the one Luck converted late in the game on Sunday to get the lead back to one score. Is the object of the game to have a high completion percentage or is the object to win the game?

I don't think you really have a clue how much is expected of Luck honestly. He IS the offense. His O line is garbage, his running game last week had a whopping 88 yards and Luck himself accounted for 33 of those. He has one great wideout, one castoff WR, 2 rookie WR and 2 rookie tightends. This is not a team that wins 8 games with stat lines like 13 of 21 for 165 yards passing.

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Through 12 games>

Luck: 22 total TDs & 25 total TOs, 55.5% completion ~42 passes per game

RG3: 23 total TD & 6 total TOs, 67.1% completion ~27 passes per game

I think its clear based on stats thus far RG3 is having the better rookie season - I'm still glad we have Luck though - IMO he is the better of the two, he just hasn't shown it yet.

We need to get Lucks attempts down toward 30 intsead of 50, then maybe the guy can start to become consistent!

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People will overlook completion percentage because in this offense it doesn't really matter. This is not a dink and dunk offense with high percentage throws. This is a vertical offense that is high risk and high reward. There are going to be incompletions and there are going to be turnovers. There are also going to be huge plays. Huge plays like the one Luck converted late in the game on Sunday to get the lead back to one score. Is the object of the game to have a high completion percentage or is the object to win the game?

I don't think you really have a clue how much is expected of Luck honestly. He IS the offense. His O line is garbage, his running game last week had a whopping 88 yards and Luck himself accounted for 33 of those. He has one great wideout, one castoff WR, 2 rookie WR and 2 rookie tightends. This is not a team that wins 8 games with stat lines like 13 of 21 for 165 yards passing.

Again, I hate all the comparison but I have to get you to understand.

Dink and dunk is usually the argument used by those who haven't looked at many games. The Redskins run a version of the West Coast Offense that incorporates a strong run game and the play action pass. The base of the WCO is the short pass. People think that it is a college offense because they use the pistol formation (which I never understood seeing as the Steelers use it too) with read options. People think he doesn't go through progressions just because his first read is usually open because they defense bite so hard on the play action. Why go through several reads when you first option is wide open? (the fallacy of people's argument regarding this). People talk about RG3 dinking and dunking but none of you (who use this argument) part your lips regarding Brady, Manning, Ryan, and Rodgers and the short throw. Mainly, because none of them are constantly being compared to Luck. But it also shows how objectivity is not use. Andrew Luck throws more passes that Griffin and Wilson but Luck and Griffin are tied for touchdown passes with Wilson leading all rookies in the category. Also, Griffin leads the league in TD passes over 20+ yards, so that kind of debunks the whole risk/reward argument.

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Again, I hate all the comparison but I have to get you to understand.

Dink and dunk is usually the argument used by those who haven't looked at many games. The Redskins run a version of the West Coast Offense that incorporates a strong run game and the play action pass. The base of the WCO is the short pass. People think that it is a college offense because they use the pistol formation (which I never understood seeing as the Steelers use it too) with read options. People think he doesn't go through progressions just because his first read is usually open because they defense bite so hard on the play action. Why go through several reads when you first option is wide open? (the fallacy of people's argument regarding this). People talk about RG3 dinking and dunking but none of you (who use this argument) part your lips regarding Brady, Manning, Ryan, and Rodgers and the short throw. Mainly, because none of them are constantly being compared to Luck. But it also shows how objectivity is not use. Andrew Luck throws more passes that Griffin and Wilson but Luck and Griffin are tied for touchdown passes with Wilson leading all rookies in the category. Also, Griffin leads the league in TD passes over 20+ yards, so that kind of debunks the whole risk/reward argument.

One more time, The reason why people are saying RG3 throws mostly short passes is because there were several skins fans(don't even remember which ones) that came here talking up RG3's completion % and using that as a basis for how he is better than Luck. Colts fans are just saying that you(or any other Skins fan) can not use Luck's lower % as a logical reasoning for why RG3 is better than Luck. That argument is absurd to say the least.

When Luck has to throw the ball 40+ times a game and so many of them are downfield passes, it's just common sense to realize that Luck is more susceptible to incompletions and interceptions. I, for one could care less what Brady's, Manning's, etc, etc, yardage per throw is because there are not fans of those other teams here telling us how their guy is better.

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Again, I hate all the comparison but I have to get you to understand.

Dink and dunk is usually the argument used by those who haven't looked at many games. The Redskins run a version of the West Coast Offense that incorporates a strong run game and the play action pass. The base of the WCO is the short pass. People think that it is a college offense because they use the pistol formation (which I never understood seeing as the Steelers use it too) with read options. People think he doesn't go through progressions just because his first read is usually open because they defense bite so hard on the play action. Why go through several reads when you first option is wide open? (the fallacy of people's argument regarding this). People talk about RG3 dinking and dunking but none of you (who use this argument) part your lips regarding Brady, Manning, Ryan, and Rodgers and the short throw. Mainly, because none of them are constantly being compared to Luck. But it also shows how objectivity is not use. Andrew Luck throws more passes that Griffin and Wilson but Luck and Griffin are tied for touchdown passes with Wilson leading all rookies in the category. Also, Griffin leads the league in TD passes over 20+ yards, so that kind of debunks the whole risk/reward argument.

So are you saying that the offense that Luck is running is not higher risk than the one Griffin is running? Sure, Brady and Manning throw a lot of short passes, but I think the difference is when they do it it is generally a check down to one of their final targets whereas Griffin's are normally designed passes for screens or slants. I don't think anyone is going to deny Griffin throws a good deep ball, and the fact he is constantly using play action also contributes to the TD passes over 20+ yards figure. But I don't think it can be denied that Luck is playing in a much riskier offense and is being asked to do much more than Griffin is as far as intermediate and long throws, as well as for his team's offense in general.

And as far as making reads, if your first read is wide open, then of course throw it to him. Especially if it is Garcon who has nobody within 10 yards of him (which has happened more than once in both Skins games I have watched this season and has resulted in big YAC). However, Griffin rarely needs to make a second read, and I think that is why people call it a "safe" offense or "dink and dunk" along with the fact they are generally short passes. When it is working it looks nice, and I think the Skins coaching just be given props for it. But you have to think that soon it will be figured out and Griffin isn't going to have wide open receivers to throwing to. And no, I am not saying he never makes a throw under pressure or doesn't fit it into a window, but it is much, MUCH less frequent than the frequency Luck must do so.

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One more time, The reason why people are saying RG3 throws mostly short passes is because there were several skins fans(don't even remember which ones) that came here talking up RG3's completion % and using that as a basis for how he is better than Luck. Colts fans are just saying that you(or any other Skins fan) can not use Luck's lower % as a logical reasoning for why RG3 is better than Luck. That argument is absurd to say the least.

When Luck has to throw the ball 40+ times a game and so many of them are downfield passes, it's just common sense to realize that Luck is more susceptible to incompletions and interceptions. I, for one could care less what Brady's, Manning's, etc, etc, yardage per throw is because there are not fans of those other teams here telling us how their guy is better.

The Redskins fans showed up long after the commercial, socks, action figures, and Luck is waaay better arguments. They didn't pop up to solely claim their quarterback's superiority-they appeared to defend him. Look at the numbers...no matter how you spin it, Griffin is playing better ball right now. No ifs ands or buts.

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The Redskins fans showed up long after the commercial, socks, action figures, and Luck is waaay better arguments. They didn't pop up to solely claim their quarterback's superiority-they appeared to defend him. Look at the numbers...no matter how you spin it, Griffin is playing better ball right now. No ifs ands or buts.

That maybe true, but there is a logical reason for that. This is a COLTS FAN FORUM. If Colts fans are/were hanging out on a Skins forum telling them Luck is better for blah blah blah reasons, then they would have every right to point out to them how wrong they are/were. I don't know about that though because I do not hang out on another teams forum that Im not a fan of.

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That maybe true, but there is a logical reason for that. This is a COLTS FAN FORUM. If Colts fans are/were hanging out on a Skins forum telling them Luck is better for blah blah blah reasons, then they would have every right to point out to them how wrong they are/were. I don't know about that though because I do not hang out on another teams forum that Im not a fan of.

True, but being a fan of another team does not mean that you can't acknowledge reality. I get that this is a Colts forum, but threads like this that go on and on with repetitive arguments about silly misconceptions is what fuels the fire that so many want to die out.

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I don't think Luck is much better than RG3. I think he's a little better. I think both teams got the right QB for their future. I wouldn't trade Luck now that we have him, and if I was a 'Skins fan, I wouldn't trade RG3 either.

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True, but being a fan of another team does not mean that you can't acknowledge reality. I get that this is a Colts forum, but threads like this that go on and on with repetitive arguments about silly misconceptions is what fuels the fire that so many want to die out.

But you keep posting in this thread and adding the fuel to the fire. Fans of teams can say whatever they would like about their team on their teams forum, whether right or wrong, or over the top. Im sure there are plenty of over the top ridiculous posts on the Skins forum and the Texans forum as well, but there is nothing wrong with that. That is what being a fan is all about, it only becomes a problem when other teams fans come to an opponents forum to start arguments.

Also, since I only recently started paying much attention to the forum again, I honestly do not know of some of the threads/posts that were made that started the influx of Skins fans to come running to the defense of their QB, but IMO it doesn't really matter. Most of what has been said about Lucks more attempts and more difficult offense compared to RG3's offense and the fact that it's based on short easy throws is completely accurate. It don't mean that one is better than the other at this point, but to completely dismiss the facts because of some stats is illogical.

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Again, I hate all the comparison but I have to get you to understand.

Dink and dunk is usually the argument used by those who haven't looked at many games. The Redskins run a version of the West Coast Offense that incorporates a strong run game and the play action pass. The base of the WCO is the short pass. People think that it is a college offense because they use the pistol formation (which I never understood seeing as the Steelers use it too) with read options. People think he doesn't go through progressions just because his first read is usually open because they defense bite so hard on the play action. Why go through several reads when you first option is wide open? (the fallacy of people's argument regarding this). People talk about RG3 dinking and dunking but none of you (who use this argument) part your lips regarding Brady, Manning, Ryan, and Rodgers and the short throw. Mainly, because none of them are constantly being compared to Luck. But it also shows how objectivity is not use. Andrew Luck throws more passes that Griffin and Wilson but Luck and Griffin are tied for touchdown passes with Wilson leading all rookies in the category. Also, Griffin leads the league in TD passes over 20+ yards, so that kind of debunks the whole risk/reward argument.

This has nothing to do with what i stated. I never said the Redskins were a dink and dunk offense.

My point was in regards to Andrew Luck and his completion percentage. Luck's average pass play travels farther then any QB in the league. He is throwing 40 times a game. His O line rarely allows for those routes to even materialize. To whine about his completion percentage while he wins games is ridiculous. The name of the game is not to see who has the best completion percentage, it's to win the game. You want to dismiss the fact that Luck won that game Sunday and harp on the fact that he was under 50 percent completion. Whatever floats your boat man. His turnovers sunday led to 3 points by the way, so it didn't do quite the damage you say it did.

You claim RG leads in TD passes over 20 yards. Is that 20 yards in the air or does that include catch and run? Does RG have more 20 yard completions overall? Whose average pass attempt travels farther? Would you say that the Skins offense is just as high risk as Bruce Arians offense? Love to hear your thoughts.

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But you keep posting in this thread and adding the fuel to the fire. Fans of teams can say whatever they would like about their team on their teams forum, whether right or wrong, or over the top. Im sure there are plenty of over the top ridiculous posts on the Skins forum and the Texans forum as well, but there is nothing wrong with that. That is what being a fan is all about, it only becomes a problem when other teams fans come to an opponents forum to start arguments.

Also, since I only recently started paying much attention to the forum again, I honestly do not know of some of the threads/posts that were made that started the influx of Skins fans to come running to the defense of their QB, but IMO it doesn't really matter. Most of what has been said about Lucks more attempts and more difficult offense compared to RG3's offense and the fact that it's based on short easy throws is completely accurate. It don't mean that one is better than the other at this point, but to completely dismiss the facts because of some stats is illogical.

It is better to have difference than general agreement all the time. How boring would that be? Myself and the Redskins fans are not the only ones who think this argument is ridiculous. I have seen Colts fans (Jason being one of them) who acknowledge that Griffin is indeed having the better season and there is no doubt about it. Numbers don't lie my friend. Griffin throws short passes? Cool. So does Brady, Manning, other elite quarterbacks as well. Griffin has beaten Newton's rushing record, but according to some, he wasn't going to last the whole season because of hits he took? He seems just fine to me. They run different offenses, yes, but Griffin runs his better. He doesn't have to put up 300 yard games and lead his team out of deep holes in order to win, and that's perfectly fine. At first the knock on Griffin was that he can put up numbers but winning is everything...because 12 was winning. Now that Griffin is winning too, what can people resort to? The numbers argument. Wins don't lie and stats don't either.

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It is better to have difference than general agreement all the time. How boring would that be? Myself and the Redskins fans are not the only ones who think this argument is ridiculous. I have seen Colts fans (Jason being one of them) who acknowledge that Griffin is indeed having the better season and there is no doubt about it. Numbers don't lie my friend. Griffin throws short passes? Cool. So does Brady, Manning, other elite quarterbacks as well. Griffin has beaten Newton's rushing record, but according to some, he wasn't going to last the whole season because of hits he took? He seems just fine to me. They run different offenses, yes, but Griffin runs his better. He doesn't have to put up 300 yard games and lead his team out of deep holes in order to win, and that's perfectly fine. At first the knock on Griffin was that he can put up numbers but winning is everything...because 12 was winning. Now that Griffin is winning too, what can people resort to? The numbers argument. Wins don't lie and stats don't either.

This is the problem. Thinking Griffin has had a better year is fine. Thinking that to claim Luck has had a better year is "ridiculous" is not fine.

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This is the problem. Thinking Griffin has had a better year is fine. Thinking that to claim Luck has had a better year is "ridiculous" is not fine.

I am referring to the argument as a whole, including the redundant spewings of the biased, not just the whole Grffin is playing better thing. It is okay to believe that 12 has had the better year, but again, this argument can be spun so many different ways.

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It is better to have difference than general agreement all the time. How boring would that be? Myself and the Redskins fans are not the only ones who think this argument is ridiculous. I have seen Colts fans (Jason being one of them) who acknowledge that Griffin is indeed having the better season and there is no doubt about it. Numbers don't lie my friend. Griffin throws short passes? Cool. So does Brady, Manning, other elite quarterbacks as well. Griffin has beaten Newton's rushing record, but according to some, he wasn't going to last the whole season because of hits he took? He seems just fine to me. They run different offenses, yes, but Griffin runs his better. He doesn't have to put up 300 yard games and lead his team out of deep holes in order to win, and that's perfectly fine. At first the knock on Griffin was that he can put up numbers but winning is everything...because 12 was winning. Now that Griffin is winning too, what can people resort to? The numbers argument. Wins don't lie and stats don't either.

You are right, many people see things different ways.

One writer plans to vote Luck for MVP.

Weird huh?

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It is better to have difference than general agreement all the time. How boring would that be? Myself and the Redskins fans are not the only ones who think this argument is ridiculous. I have seen Colts fans (Jason being one of them) who acknowledge that Griffin is indeed having the better season and there is no doubt about it. Numbers don't lie my friend. Griffin throws short passes? Cool. So does Brady, Manning, other elite quarterbacks as well. Griffin has beaten Newton's rushing record, but according to some, he wasn't going to last the whole season because of hits he took? He seems just fine to me. They run different offenses, yes, but Griffin runs his better. He doesn't have to put up 300 yard games and lead his team out of deep holes in order to win, and that's perfectly fine. At first the knock on Griffin was that he can put up numbers but winning is everything...because 12 was winning. Now that Griffin is winning too, what can people resort to? The numbers argument. Wins don't lie and stats don't either.

Once again, I DO NOT care what Manning, Brady, or any of the other QB's are doing. You say its a fact that RG3 is having a better yr. and it simply is not a fact. There are many many others that would completely disagree with you(and your buddy Jason). To not acknowledge that Luck has helped completely turn around a 2-14 team with a bunch of scrubs and castoffs is unbelievably and remarkably *ic.

Luck's leadership and his ability to forget mistakes that he has made and still lead this team to 5 4th qtr. comebacks is 2nd to none IMO, especially for a rookie. The only point I have tried repeatably to make is that RG3's offense is set up for him to be successful, whereas Luck has been asked to do things that 10 yr. veterans are asked to do, and he has shown the ability not only to do it, but to do it better than 3/4 of the QB's in the league.

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You are right, many people see things different ways.

One writer plans to vote Luck for MVP.

Weird huh?

Hmm. I'm not gonna even get into that one lol.

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Through 12 games>

Luck: 22 total TDs & 25 total TOs, 55.5% completion ~42 passes per game

RG3: 23 total TD & 6 total TOs, 67.1% completion ~27 passes per game

I think its clear based on stats thus far RG3 is having the better rookie season - I'm still glad we have Luck though - IMO he is the better of the two, he just hasn't shown it yet.

We need to get Lucks attempts down toward 30 intsead of 50, then maybe the guy can start to become consistent!

Just thought that I'd like to touch up on the topic highlighted. I agree that ideally, Luck should be throwing the ball about 30 times per game, and then perhaps we would see more consistency from Luck and more balance from our offense.

Here is the problem: I do not think that Arians wakes up the morning of the game and decides, "Hey, maybe today we should just let Luck sling it about 50 times. Yeah, that'll be our gameplan" (not that you think he does). Instead, like you and I, he wants a balanced and effective attack. Our O-line can't pass block or run block. Donald Brown averages 3.9YPC and Ballard averages 3.7YPC. So for the time being, our best offensive weapons are Luck, Wayne, Hilton, Allen, Avery, Fleener, and Ballard. Luck is pretty much asked to keep throwing to win games, and for the most part, although unfair to him, he's been delivering.

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Tweet from Mike Greenberg (MIKE AND MIKE IN THE MORNING)

Aaron Rodgers is not only the best QB in the NFL, he is the best player in the league. And I'm not sure RG3 isn't second. #Packers #Redskins

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I dont get this whole Griffin is unquestionably having a better rookie year idea

1.we still have 4 games to go

2.Both QB's have 17 touchdown passes

3.They are separated by 1 total touchdown (That includes run and and folks), does Luck have the rushing yards? of course not, everyone knows though that if he wanted he could run plenty of yards if it was a part of our offense though

4.Luck also has 216 yards on 44 carries so he can run pretty good as well

5.Luck has a 936 yard passing yards lead on Griffin

6.Luck has been forced to throw 178 more times then Griffin with a O Coordinator who refuses to use Lucks strengths as well as because we have no O Line

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Once again, I DO NOT care what Manning, Brady, or any of the other QB's are doing. You say its a fact that RG3 is having a better yr. and it simply is not a fact. There are many many others that would completely disagree with you(and your buddy Jason). To not acknowledge that Luck has helped completely turn around a 2-14 team around with a bunch of scrubs and castoffs is unbelievably and remarkably *ic.

Luck's leadership and his ability to forget mistakes that he has made and still lead this team to 5 4th qtr. comebacks is 2nd to none IMO, especially for a rookie. The only point I have tried repeatably to make is that RG3's offense is set up for him to be successful, whereas Luck has been asked to do things that 10 yr. veterans are asked to do, and he has shown the ability not only to do it, but to do it better than 3/4 of the QB's in the league.

Okay, and this is where you lose me. A lot of people around here seem to believe that 12 can do no wrong, and when he does it's just "rookie mistakes". The Colts got rid of a lot of people from last year. This is not the same team. Plug in Schaub or Rivers or heck probably even Griffin and we would probably see the same results or better. The Colts are not winning solely because of 12...I don't know why so many seem to think that this is the case. I've even seen some say "Oh, Peyton would never survive behind this offensive line" when I think that is nonsense. He would get rid of the ball faster and have a lot less turnovers too, and who knows, the record could possibly be better than it is now. To say that he is doing things better than 3/4s of the rest of the league is extreme as well. He is good but he still makes mistakes, and I would not say that he is better than that many quarterbacks in this league. Not yet.

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Tweet from Mike Greenberg (MIKE AND MIKE IN THE MORNING)

Aaron Rodgers is not only the best QB in the NFL, he is the best player in the league. And I'm not sure RG3 isn't second. #Packers #Redskins

This is what I'm talking about. For a skins fan to post this on a Colts forum is doing nothing but trying to spark an argument.

BTW, Mike Greenburg is an (*). He wouldn't know football if it jumped up and slapped the crap out of him.

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This is what I'm talking about. For a skins fan to post this on a Colts forum is doing nothing but trying to spark an argument.

BTW, Mike Greenburg is an (*). He wouldn't know football if it jumped up and slapped the crap out of him.

*Mike Greenberg says 12 is possibly the second best player in the league* " Hey, that guy is great! He always knows what he's talking about. ;)" Yes, I have seen that sort of logic here. I'm going to let the poster defend himself but he is not trying to start an argument I'm sure; This entire thread is argument enough for this topic.

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Okay, and this is where you lose me. A lot of people around here seem to believe that 12 can do no wrong, and when he does it's just "rookie mistakes". The Colts got rid of a lot of people from last year. This is not the same team. Plug in Schaub or Rivers or heck probably even Griffin and we would probably see the same results or better. The Colts are not winning solely because of 12...I don't know why so many seem to think that this is the case. I've even seen some say "Oh, Peyton would never survive behind this offensive line" when I think that is nonsense. He would get rid of the ball faster and have a lot less turnovers too, and who knows, the record could possibly be better than it is now. To say that he is doing things better than 3/4s of the rest of the league is extreme as well. He is good but he still makes mistakes, and I would not say that he is better than that many quarterbacks in this league. Not yet.

How exactly are they winning then? Dominant run game? Dominant defense? Dominant special teams. You are right this is not the same team as last year. We basically started over with rookies and first year Colts. This team talent wise is probably worse then last year in most areas.

Peyton Manning ran a timing offense. Bruce Arian's doesn't. When people say he wouldn't survive this year behind that line, they are correct.

And nobody here thinks 12 can do no wrong. We just think he's better then you want to give him credit for. But you are a fan of a division rival, so you are not going to agree with us regardless.

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This is what I'm talking about. For a skins fan to post this on a Colts forum is doing nothing but trying to spark an argument.

BTW, Mike Greenburg is an (*). He wouldn't know football if it jumped up and slapped the crap out of him.

I brought it up not to start % but to show media means nothing they all say stupid stuff. Someone brought up the article NFL.com put up yesterday about Luck is MVP. It's one mans opinion and I can show you another mans opinion that RG3 is the 2nd best Player in the league. Its dumb to listen to most media people especially if they never played the game.
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I am referring to the argument as a whole, including the redundant spewings of the biased, not just the whole Grffin is playing better thing. It is okay to believe that 12 has had the better year, but again, this argument can be spun so many different ways.

Hmm ya had me until you said the Redskins are winning, I would say winning more yes, but if were being technical (and technicality counts I suppose in a friendly debate) 6 and 6 is keeping your heads above water winning yes but fighting what is right now still an up hill battle, None of thats to discredit fighting to get in the position you guys are at right now of course and congrats on how the season is looking for you guys at the moment

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Okay, and this is where you lose me. A lot of people around here seem to believe that 12 can do no wrong, and when he does it's just "rookie mistakes". The Colts got rid of a lot of people from last year. This is not the same team. Plug in Schaub or Rivers or heck probably even Griffin and we would probably see the same results or better. The Colts are not winning solely because of 12...I don't know why so many seem to think that this is the case. I've even seen some say "Oh, Peyton would never survive behind this offensive line" when I think that is nonsense. He would get rid of the ball faster and have a lot less turnovers too, and who knows, the record could possibly be better than it is now. To say that he is doing things better than 3/4s of the rest of the league is extreme as well. He is good but he still makes mistakes, and I would not say that he is better than that many quarterbacks in this league. Not yet.

To say that any of those other QB's would have the same results is asinine. There is just no possible way to defend that statement.

Also, I said Luck has "helped" turn this team around, not that he done it all by himself.

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I dont get this whole Griffin is unquestionably having a better rookie year idea

1.we still have 4 games to go

2.Both QB's have 17 touchdown passes

3.They are separated by 1 total touchdown (That includes run and and folks), does Luck have the rushing yards? of course not, everyone knows though that if he wanted he could run plenty of yards if it was a part of our offense though

4.Luck also has 216 yards on 44 carries so he can run pretty good as well

5.Luck has a 936 yard passing yards lead on Griffin

6.Luck has been forced to throw 178 more times then Griffin with a O Coordinator who refuses to use Lucks strengths as well as because we have no O Line

Yes total TDs is only 1 difference, but Luck has 25 turnovers to 6 for RG3 .... thats a MAJOR difference that clearly must not be over looked when determining who is having the better season as a player.

Like I said - I am still glad we have Luck .... RG3 will end up like the hello kitty newton - I have no doubt!

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How exactly are they winning then? Dominant run game? Dominant defense? Dominant special teams. You are right this is not the same team as last year. We basically started over with rookies and first year Colts. This team talent wise is probably worse then last year in most areas.

Peyton Manning ran a timing offense. Bruce Arian's doesn't. When people say he wouldn't survive this year behind that line, they are correct.

And nobody here thinks 12 can do no wrong. We just think he's better then you want to give him credit for. But you are a fan of a division rival, so you are not going to agree with us regardless.

I would say that there indeed has been a little luck going on here. Dominant run game? No. Inept defenses and sub-par opponents, some of whom who refuse to make adjustments and are well known for being awful? One of the best wide receivers in the NFL? An offensive line that makes just enough room for positive bursts on the ground? Last year you had Painter at quarterback. Of course the season didn't go as expected. You must not know me because I give credit regardless of opponent. 12 is good but he is not the god that so many here make him out to be. Manning would be just fine this year because had he stayed, I am sure that he would have had some say so as to who his offensive coordinator was going to be. No doubt about that.

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I brought it up not to start % but to show media means nothing they all say stupid stuff. Someone brought up the article NFL.com put up yesterday about Luck is MVP. It's one mans opinion and I can show you another mans opinion that RG3 is the 2nd best Player in the league. Its dumb to listen to most media people especially if they never played the game.

This much, I will completely agree with you on. I said in that other thread that the writer said he was voting for Luck for MVP, that Luck is not the MVP this yr.. since I am a Colts fan, I will say there is a case to be made for him, but there are cases to be made for many players.

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Hmm ya had me until you said the Redskins are winning, I would say winning more yes, but if were being technical (and technicality counts I suppose in a friendly debate) 6 and 6 is keeping your heads above water winning yes but fighting what is right now still an up hill battle, None of thats to discredit fighting to get in the position you guys are at right now of course and congrats on how the season is looking for you guys at the moment

I'm not a Redskins fan but thanks anyway Gavin lol. If they keep performing well they may very well clinch the East. This was my preseason prediction anyway, so if it happens, I'm brilliant. :)

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To say that any of those other QB's would have the same results is asinine. There is just no possible way to defend that statement.

Also, I said Luck has "helped" turn this team around, not that he done it all by himself.

Except that in the past both Schaub and Rivers have both been successful at stretching the field and putting up monster yards passing...and from what I have seen from Griffin's deep ball and his occasional overthrows, I am sure that he wouldn't mind being in a pass happy offense either. Of course there is no possible way to defend this statement because we will probably never see any of those guys in a Colts uniform lol.

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Yes total TDs is only 1 difference, but Luck has 25 turnovers to 6 for RG3 .... thats a MAJOR difference that clearly must not be over looked when determining who is having the better season as a player.

Like I said - I am still glad we have Luck .... RG3 will end up like the hello kitty newton - I have no doubt!

What else can't be overlooked is that Luck has 200 more attempts than RG3. Many of those attempts being downfield passes. I just don't think its a good argument to say "hey, RG3 has 19 less turnovers" without looking at the reasons for why Luck has so many more turnovers. I'm positive that if Luck had 200 less attempts that his turnover total would be quite a bit less.

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