No one is talking about Brady for MVP

[southwest1]

I love to swing dance and about 10 years ago after coming back from a swing dance camp (Swing Out New Hampshire) I started to play an online war game (Battlefield 1942) and needed a name . . . well was spending some time on a swing dance forum yehoodi.com talking about the recent dance camp and I liked the name and started to use it. . . . and use it pretty much where ever I go on the internet . . .

The name means Jewish in Hebrew I am told . . .but the website got it from an old Cab Calloway’s song “Who’s Yehoodi?”

Interesting my friend...I thought Yehoodi meant this...Very sly & clever pal. Way to keep me on my toes Yehoodi.

[GoPats]

Thanks GoPats,

You do an exceptional job of explaining foreign subject matter to neophyte amateurs like yours truly without making them feel foolish. Thanks for the brief history lesson about Reinhold Messner too! The scuba gear diving analogy was a good one as well. You sure are well versed in climbing GOPats. You know exactly what you are talking about. Although, when I think of exposure, I think of a photography and a dark room or celebrity fame not "the distance you'd fall if you fell." Ouch man...Just Kidding my friend. ;)

, true... "exposure" could definitely have different meanings!

I actually made a living as a guide for around 10 years, and have always loved introducing people to the sport. The great thing about mountaineering is how it breaks life down to its simplest terms. When you're out there, you're not thinking about paying bills, or about politics, or about any of the things that kind of drag us down in our day-to-day lives. For me, it's always been the freedom of just being in a place with a very clear and simple purpose, even if "simple" does not necessarily mean "not challenging." What more tangible goal is there than standing on top of a mountain? Very uncomplicated, if you get what I mean.

If you have even a fleeting interest, and like to read, try out "No Shortcuts to the Top" by Ed Viesturs. It's a biography of the guy who is probably the most accomplished American climber of all time. Very digestible, even for someone not familiar with the terminology of the sport, and a great account of an amazing life in the mountains...

[FireJimCaldwell]

Read an interesting stat last night...

Heading into the 2012 season, for the duration of their respective careers, Brady's defenses have given up 17.8 points/game, while Manning's have given up 21.4 (I may be off on the tenths there, but I'm sure about the 17 and 21).

Averages are just that - averages - but I thought that was interesting. I wouldn't have guessed it was that close.

(And by now I hope you know I'm not an anti-Manning guy... he's made my "Rival Pantheon" with Jeter, Magic Johnson, and a handful of other guys who are just too darn good to dislike.)

Without looking, that sounds about right. I remember something similar.

You'll likely find this to be interesting. My brother worked this up. It doesn't include this season, but I'm sure he or I will update it once the season is complete. This is a look at Manning & Brady vs. common opponents in each of the years that they have played. Obviously injuries happen and one of them might have caught a break by not playing against a key defender, or even an opposing QB or something, but it's a bit of a different approach to Manning v. Brady.

I believe I've posted it before. Some will find it interesting. It's comparing starts, and the one missing game is the game where Brady took over for Bledsoe vs. the Jets, since that was late, and he didn't start, he didn't include it.

No, you aren't a loyal member of the Hate-All-Things-Manning-Clan, but some of your New England brethren are, but that is to be expected. I respect Brady a great deal but that doesn't prevent me from poking fun at some of his off-field antics.

[Gramz]

thanks for the feedback, and great story about you embracing the name . . . It must be tough to be just a fan of the player and not team, expecially when the player is a key component of the team and perhaps was one of your favorite players . . .

for me if Brady left and went to another team i would still be a fan of him but would cheer for the team he is playing on and would embrace the team . . . indeed I am a fan of the Chiefs, cause of matt cassell, and wish them well and are happy they are doing well even if cassel is not from game to game . . . i still have my historical favorites teams skins and pats, but also a fan of the Chiefs . . . i for one can't separate the two, the qb from the team . . . that is just me . . .

That's where I am at this year. I am rooting for both teams. I root for the Broncos, Because of Peyton. I root for Andrew, because I love the Colts.

[JerodMayo51]

, yes because those guys that surrounded Peyton are all Pro bowl, HOFer, big name guys huh. Biggest name guys Manning has had was Harrison and Wayne. Remind me where the co-stars of the Manning era are now and what they are doing in way of production.

Gonzo, clark, garcon, addai, collie, white, tamme, rhodes, ect..

Tamme is with Peyton, I get that, but what is his production or lack there of.

We could go forever back and forth. Personally, i'm just gonna enjoy the funny YouTube videos of these two.

Yikes you just set this one up for me to hit out of the park.. Ive made an argument in the past that shed light on just how much draft picks and money the Colts invested into the offensive side of the ball on skill positions for Manning his ENTIRE career.. Ill just go off of my memory for now, then I'll dig more and fill in anything I missed...

He started his career with Marvin Harrison and Marshal Faulk on his roster.. Those names ring a bell? They're first ballot hall of famers.. Pretty nice to start your career with, I would say.

Then they drafted Reggie Wayne with a 1st round pick, Dallas Clark with a 1st round pick, Edjerin James with a first round pick, Joseph Addai with a 1st round pick, Anthony Gonzales with a first round pick, Donald Brown with a 1st round pick... Who am I forgetting? That doesn;t even include the offensive lineman that they drafted as well, I think 1-2 of those were 1st round talents as well..

In fact, Manning has had outstanding skill players throughout his entire career, way higher caliber than Brady has ever had.

I remember when the argument use to be because Manning put up better stats than Brady early on in his career, but thats because their offense didn't have a silly number of weapons for Brady to sling it around the yard with. He still had very good numbers, just not "Peyton Manningesque" numbers. That all changed in 2007, when the front office actually went out and started investing some money and picks into skill players like Moss, Stallworth and Welker. What did he do then? Oh yea, he broke the all time TD and point record... Go figure... Give him some weapons and he puts up record breaking stats. Then a lot of fans here gave all the credit to Moss, saying that Moss makes any Quarterback look better than he really is and that was the only reason for Brady's success.. Then they trade Moss away and evolve their offense yet again (Brady has gone through so many offensive coordinators.. Manning had Moore as his O coordinator for the majority of his career) and now this year, the Patriots are the 2nd highest points per game in league history... second behind who you ask? Oh yea, the 2007 Patriots, lead by Tom Brady... and hes doing it without Randy Moss...

Go figure!

The idea that "Biggest name guys Manning has had was Harrison and Wayne." is insanely misleading. He has had outstanding talent his entire career around him, and had it continually added to his roster year after year by the front office. There is nothing wrong with that philosophy, if you have a great QB you surround him with talent and try to score 30+ points a game, but that isn't the only way to build/run your team. Manning has great talent around him out in Denver as well with Thomas and Decker. They have some RB issues, but the Patriots are no stranger to a poor running game. It wasn't until this year that they've had a solid RB since Corey Dillon..

[bayone]

, true... "exposure" could definitely have different meanings!

I actually made a living as a guide for around 10 years, and have always loved introducing people to the sport. The great thing about mountaineering is how it breaks life down to its simplest terms. When you're out there, you're not thinking about paying bills, or about politics, or about any of the things that kind of drag us down in our day-to-day lives. For me, it's always been the freedom of just being in a place with a very clear and simple purpose, even if "simple" does not necessarily mean "not challenging." What more tangible goal is there than standing on top of a mountain? Very uncomplicated, if you get what I mean.

If you have even a fleeting interest, and like to read, try out "No Shortcuts to the Top" by Ed Viesturs. It's a biography of the guy who is probably the most accomplished American climber of all time. Very digestible, even for someone not familiar with the terminology of the sport, and a great account of an amazing life in the mountains...

Thats also why I try to escape to this site, watch football, eat a great dinner out with good company ,, and get to a concert whenever life makes it possible

Yet these things are still in back of ones mind

But on a mountain , its u or the mountain, 1 sole purpose nothing else & your mind better be crystal clear on what needs to be done, 1 goal , 1 focus, thats it or u risk more than paying a late fee on a bill

[JerodMayo51]

no one believes brady could go to another team and be as dominant as he is in new england. if manning & brady traded places this offseason, most assume the patriots would win superbowls as long as manning could keep playing, while the broncos would slip back into obscurity

Not sure how they could feel that way.. Brady has been through tons of offensive coordinators and has had a lot of turnover at the WR, RB and TE position for most of his career, yet he still flourishes regardless of the position that he is put in. In 2006, when the Patriots had that epic collapse against the Colts in the AFCCG, Rache Caldwell was the Patriots #1 receiver... and they were still scoring 24+ points a game. I think Brady has proven time and time again just how good he is, but obviously there will always be critics. One of the things that comes with success is that there are people who love you, but there are also people that grow to hate you. Just like me and most of the boston area with the Yankees.. Anyone who suggests that Brady isn't that good of a QB or couldn't succeed elsewhere either A) Doesn't know very much about football at an X's and O's level or anything beyond what they hear about on TV or B) They're just spiteful towards him because they don't like him/the Patriots.

Just like a lot of Boston fans will say "Jeter sucks!" but in reality we all know that Jeter is an awesome player, hes just on the Yankees and is unlikable for us. Its the same with Brady and the Patriots, when you're good for so long you're going to have a lot of friends and a lot of enemies.

Teams should be nervous though, the Patriots are quietly going through their season, racking off important wins even through a slew of injuries that they've been taking all year long, including along the offensive line. Do people even realize how much in shambles the Pats Oline has been this year? That was another thing people used against Brady being good, that "he had all day to throw the ball, any QB could do well." Well, all you have to do is watch this years games... There have been a ton of injuries all year long at just about every position across the line and Brady is still leading the 2nd highest points per game in league history offense and only has THREE interceptions on the year!

Also, Brees failed to get a TD in his game last night, so Brady is now 11 games away from breaking his longest streak of games with a TD record.

[southwest1]

, true... "exposure" could definitely have different meanings!

I actually made a living as a guide for around 10 years, and have always loved introducing people to the sport. The great thing about mountaineering is how it breaks life down to its simplest terms. When you're out there, you're not thinking about paying bills, or about politics, or about any of the things that kind of drag us down in our day-to-day lives. For me, it's always been the freedom of just being in a place with a very clear and simple purpose, even if "simple" does not necessarily mean "not challenging." What more tangible goal is there than standing on top of a mountain? Very uncomplicated, if you get what I mean.

If you have even a fleeting interest, and like to read, try out "No Shortcuts to the Top" by Ed Viesturs. It's a biography of the guy who is probably the most accomplished American climber of all time. Very digestible, even for someone not familiar with the terminology of the sport, and a great account of an amazing life in the mountains...

Thanks for the recommendation GoPats. I will check out that book you mentioned. I can easily see the appeal of this sport as a pleasant distraction. A venue in which to clear your head and forget mundane matters of the world for awhile. Freedom is a good word for it. No boss, no wife, no girlfriend, no kids or relatives nagging you...Just you, the mountain, the weather, the elements, and quiet solitude...Nice!

That's the true definition of genius too. Breaking down the most complicated formulas and subjects into their most easily understandable form that is "digestible" by anyone & everyone. I'll bet that you were a fantastic guide too buddy. Hey, if the military & the airlines have flight simulators, having rock climbing & rock descending simulators for all people to experience the adrenaline rush and change in air pressure would be so cool to participate in. :dancing:

[Yehoodi]

no one believes brady could go to another team and be as dominant as he is in new england. if manning & brady traded places this offseason, most assume the patriots would win superbowls as long as manning could keep playing, while the broncos would slip back into obscurity

i am not saying it's true, but it certainly is the perception of most football (not new england) fans

just to be clear here, the Broncos last year were 7-4 QBed by a QB whom some of those fans feel isn't even a QB . . . so they are not in the abyss of the nfl . . . furthermore, when brady took over the pats they were 0-2 and 5-11 in the year prior with the same coach and boom look what happened from sept 2001 to the present day . . . just saying. . .

am i saying that Brady is better, or going to pull rank and argue as TB took over a 5-13 team coached under BB and TB is 100% totally responsible for the turnaround, no, but no should anyone say the same about another . . . TB took over a team that had a good base but was floudering in the middle of the pack and took it to the next level . . . similarly the broncos are a team in the middle and hoepfully PM will take them to the next level . . .

to say that Manning can do something TB can't is just foolish . . .

[bayone]

just to be clear here, the Broncos last year were 7-4 QBed by a QB whom some of those fans feel isn't even a QB . . . so they are not in the abyss of the nfl . . . furthermore, when brady took over the pats they were 0-2 and 5-11 in the year prior with the same coach and boom look what happened from sept 2001 to the present day . . . just saying. . .

am i saying that Brady is better, or going to pull rank and argue as TB took over a 5-13 team coached under BB and TB is 100% totally responsible for the turnaround, no, but no should anyone say the same about another . . . TB took over a team that had a good base but was floudering in the middle of the pack and took it to the next level . . . similarly the broncos are a team in the middle and hoepfully PM will take them to the next level . . .

to say that Manning can do something TB can't is just foolish . . .

No idea if this is true, once read years back that BB purposely left out a book with Bedlso & Brady's player eval when he was 3rd string QB I think

Beldsoe noted certain isuues

Brady's spelled out exactly what he needs to work on, know accuracy was one , at the time for him to move up the depth chart & become a possible succsor to Drew with the team they currently had & not go out to getr another QB

again no idea if true , but article said proved to be exactly what BB wanted an excellent mptivation tool & to Brady's credit ,. what ever was critized he worked on and overcame

[southwest1]

just to be clear here, the Broncos last year were 7-4 QBed by a QB whom some of those fans feel isn't even a QB . . . so they are not in the abyss of the nfl . . . furthermore, when brady took over the pats they were 0-2 and 5-11 in the year prior with the same coach and boom look what happened from sept 2001 to the present day . . . just saying. . .

am i saying that Brady is better, or going to pull rank and argue as TB took over a 5-13 team coached under BB and TB is 100% totally responsible for the turnaround, no, but no should anyone say the same about another . . . TB took over a team that had a good base but was floudering in the middle of the pack and took it to the next level . . . similarly the broncos are a team in the middle and hoepfully PM will take them to the next level . . .

to say that Manning can do something TB can't is just foolish . . .

Agreed. 100% Yehoodi. The key to successful football is synonymous with 2 words: adjustment and adaptability. Tom Brady is just as smart as Peyton Manning & to state or infer that Brady would not be as success in another system on another team is completely without any validity and merit IMO.

[Yehoodi]

Welcome to Peyton's world. Tom/The Patriots/Patriots fans might be beginning to get a hint of an idea of what it is like, but in all honestly it's not even close.

When scoring 30+ points Manning's teams are 79-7 in the regular season and 5-0 in the playoffs.

When scoring 30+ points Brady's teams are 73-3 in the regular season and 5-1 in the playoffs.

That is somewhat close, but when you look at that 30+ on the defensive side of the the equation that is where there is a huge separation.

Brady and his teams are 7-14 when allowing 30+ points in the regular season and 0-2 in the playoffs. 23 times in Brady's 192 combined starts the Patriots have allowed 30+ points 12.0%

Manning and his teams are 9-32 when allowing 30+ points in the regular season and 2-2 in the playoffs.

45 times in Manning's 238 combined starts the Colts/Broncos have allowed 30+ points or 18.9%

At the end of the 2010 season Brady was 55-1 so in 2011/12 he's 18-2 when scoring 30+. He was 6-11 at the end of the 2010 season when allowing 30+ so he's 3-3 since, so it can't quite compare to the defenses Manning has had to deal with for the majority of his entire career.

I've argued many times that Brady is a far better QB now than when he was winning his Super Bowls, and he has had to be. He's not in Manning's zip code when it comes to dealing with bad defenses, but he's got a Realtor looking in the same state.

. . . . . . great post . . . but i did find something interesting the facts you quoted . . . Mannings team has scored 30+ points in 91 games or 91/238, 38% of his games while Brady's team has scored 30+ points in 82 games or 82/192 or 43% of his games . . . and seeing that 43>38 that means :brady: > :manning: , that otta fired up a few of natives :mod:

getting back to the heart of your post, yes Manning has had more games with a team yield more that 30+ points . . .i did not say defense and maybe it is splitting hairs, but it would be interesting, and perhaps outside the realm of the data bases of stats, but to look at some of the following factors that might effect the points a team gives up . . .

what does ST yeild,

does the offense (in particular the QB) help yield points for opposition (pick six, INT in own side of field, many 3 and outs, etc),

how many possession does each team have - does the offensive run quick possession thereby both teams gaining more overall possession - for example an offense running a 4 min offense and/or no huddle throughout the game shorten the time of possession per possession and therefore more overall possession per team, as opposed to a team that might run a run base keep the clock going offense after run or pass completion . . . (i call this the 80s Denver Nuggets factor, they played run and gun all game long so each team got many more possessions and games were like 132-123) . . .

and field conditions which could slow each team down or speed them up depending on the field conditions (rain/muddy feild verses inside) . . .

and so on . . .

The pats 2001-2006 were not necessarrily a run and gun team, and also played on natural grass that "ended" up getting muddy and messy by mid november . . . after we lost to the JETS late 2006 (and which was a first consecutive loss for us since 2002), field turf was installed in like 3 days . . . since that lost in Nov, 2006 TB has won every game on home turf except Giants, '11, and Cards '12, and two playoff games, so only 4 overall, and if I remember we set a record for consecutive wins at home . . . you add some good WRs and it is not real surprise that TB numbers have improved since then . . .for me TB has improved, as all QBs do, but not as much as some think, he was always rock solid in dome and till 2007 only lost twice in a dome, 2006 AFCCG and SB42 . .. so he likes good field conditions . . .

so for me one factor i would add to the overall records is that the pats played in a environment 2001-2006 which was not necessarily as condusive to scoring as post 2006 and may explain some of the looses, that is, if a team and pony up 30 points in foxboro 01-06 they likely win . . .

but yes overall PM has played in more games with a team that yeilds 30+ pts more often . . . and i do think that the present day pats are similar to teh 01-07 colts . . .

[FireJimCaldwell]

. . . . . . great post . . . but i did find something interesting the facts you quoted . . . Mannings team has scored 30+ points in 91 games or 91/238, 38% of his games while Brady's team has scored 30+ points in 82 games or 82/192 or 43% of his games . . . and seeing that 43>38 that means :brady: > :manning: , that otta fired up a few of natives :mod:

Was simply going on points scored... Offensive, defensive, special teams. That's a fair point, but when you compare those 91 to 82 and Manning's lost more than twice the # of games, that sorta pushes it back into his favor.

Making the cut off point at 25 or 35 might shift the overall look at things and it might not.

Then when you look at the points allowed, it is the cherry on top.

Many factors go into any given game and the look at the #'s from a points scored vs. points allowed viewpoint is only a chapter in the story of Manning v. Brady.

[DILLIGAFER]

Yikes you just set this one up for me to hit out of the park.. Ive made an argument in the past that shed light on just how much draft picks and money the Colts invested into the offensive side of the ball on skill positions for Manning his ENTIRE career.. Ill just go off of my memory for now, then I'll dig more and fill in anything I missed...

He started his career with Marvin Harrison and Marshal Faulk on his roster.. Those names ring a bell? They're first ballot hall of famers.. Pretty nice to start your career with, I would say.

Then they drafted Reggie Wayne with a 1st round pick, Dallas Clark with a 1st round pick, Edjerin James with a first round pick, Joseph Addai with a 1st round pick, Anthony Gonzales with a first round pick, Donald Brown with a 1st round pick... Who am I forgetting? That doesn;t even include the offensive lineman that they drafted as well, I think 1-2 of those were 1st round talents as well..

In fact, Manning has had outstanding skill players throughout his entire career, way higher caliber than Brady has ever had.

I remember when the argument use to be because Manning put up better stats than Brady early on in his career, but thats because their offense didn't have a silly number of weapons for Brady to sling it around the yard with. He still had very good numbers, just not "Peyton Manningesque" numbers. That all changed in 2007, when the front office actually went out and started investing some money and picks into skill players like Moss, Stallworth and Welker. What did he do then? Oh yea, he broke the all time TD and point record... Go figure... Give him some weapons and he puts up record breaking stats. Then a lot of fans here gave all the credit to Moss, saying that Moss makes any Quarterback look better than he really is and that was the only reason for Brady's success.. Then they trade Moss away and evolve their offense yet again (Brady has gone through so many offensive coordinators.. Manning had Moore as his O coordinator for the majority of his career) and now this year, the Patriots are the 2nd highest points per game in league history... second behind who you ask? Oh yea, the 2007 Patriots, lead by Tom Brady... and hes doing it without Randy Moss...

Go figure!

The idea that "Biggest name guys Manning has had was Harrison and Wayne." is insanely misleading. He has had outstanding talent his entire career around him, and had it continually added to his roster year after year by the front office. There is nothing wrong with that philosophy, if you have a great QB you surround him with talent and try to score 30+ points a game, but that isn't the only way to build/run your team. Manning has great talent around him out in Denver as well with Thomas and Decker. They have some RB issues, but the Patriots are no stranger to a poor running game. It wasn't until this year that they've had a solid RB since Corey Dillon..

Why bother.. i'm just SMH right now. Out of those fantastic 1st rounders.. how many are competing at a high level?

BROWN, GONZO, ADDAI, ARE BUSTS! Clark was ok, but not near a Gronk or Hernandez level. I'm sorry, Clark was a terrible pass blocker and run blocker. Had good hands and route, but couldnt take big hits.

Blah, blah first rounders. Unless they pan out.. they dont mean crap. Ever hear Manning yell at Brown? He was so bad at picking up blocks he almost got Peyton killed a few times. Terrible runner as well.

There were better pickups by the Colts at later rounds than first round picks IMO. Being taken in the first round doesnt mean crap to me if you cant play like a first rounder should.

Heck, look back at all the first round NFL Busts. There has been better talent at UDFA than first rounders lately. Foster ring a bell?

[southwest1]

No idea if this is true, once read years back that BB purposely left out a book with Bedlso & Brady's player eval when he was 3rd string QB I think

Beldsoe noted certain isuues

Brady's spelled out exactly what he needs to work on, know accuracy was one , at the time for him to move up the depth chart & become a possible succsor to Drew with the team they currently had & not go out to getr another QB

again no idea if true , but article said proved to be exactly what BB wanted an excellent mptivation tool & to Brady's credit ,. what ever was criticized he worked on and overcame

Bingo! Tom Brady from the Combine in INDY, through competition with Drew Bledsoe, has come incredibly far in this league. He had more adversity to confront than #18 ever did IMO...Brady has never been afraid of hardwork. Put him anywhere except the Browns & the Jets & Brady will succeed. The 2 teams I mentioned...more a reflection on the coaching & pieces in place on the field vs anything else. Not a critique of Brady's skill set at all.

[Yehoodi]

No idea if this is true, once read years back that BB purposely left out a book with Bedlso & Brady's player eval when he was 3rd string QB I think

Beldsoe noted certain isuues

Brady's spelled out exactly what he needs to work on, know accuracy was one , at the time for him to move up the depth chart & become a possible succsor to Drew with the team they currently had & not go out to getr another QB

again no idea if true , but article said proved to be exactly what BB wanted an excellent mptivation tool & to Brady's credit ,. what ever was critized he worked on and overcame

we were fortunate to get brady in teh 6th round, but luckly for both BB saw promise in TB and carried 4 QBs in 2000 . . . the following year he saw improvements in TB and was actullly planning on bringing TB in at some point in the year but Mo Lewis made it easier . . . fortunately for TB and teh Pats we had a good base of players, great coaching and some nice FAs in 2001 and we took off . .. TB was not totally responsible but he was a factor .. .

i always say the great QBs of the nfl, manning, brady, brees, ryan, rogers are worth about 1-3 wins over a middle of a road QB with the same team . . . many times those wins are make or break for a team . . .

[Yehoodi]

Was simply going on points scored... Offensive, defensive, special teams. That's a fair point, but when you compare those 91 to 82 and Manning's lost more than twice the # of games, that sorta pushes it back into his favor.

Making the cut off point at 25 or 35 might shift the overall look at things and it might not.

Then when you look at the points allowed, it is the cherry on top.

Many factors go into any given game and the look at the #'s from a points scored vs. points allowed viewpoint is only a chapter in the story of Manning v. Brady.

i know . . . it tough to get to involved with stats and things as is takes time to look at each game . . .which okay if one is discussin MVP for a year as its only 16 games or discussing 1984 v. 2004 v.2007 v. 2011 for the four QBs as its only 16 games per season . . .but a career is way too much . . .and for the say of brevity it easy to look at stast at one finger tips and draw a conclusion . . . and yes it is one chapter in the discussion . . .

altho i would love to have stats at our fingers tips as it would be fun to qualify things . . .

kind of off topic, but another stat i would love to have would be "big plays given up by a cornerback" say TDs or plays over 20 yards . . . i think of Asante Samuel in this case, he takes many chances leaving his guy to try to get a pick, which he has done many times, but at the same time has given up big plays do to him leaving he guy who then gets the balls . . . so it would be nice to qualify Samuels picks against the picks plays he has given up due to his guy being left open . . . he did it in the giants playoff game in 2008 and alas, was the man assigned to cover tyree in SB42 but left him to come underneath . . .

[GoPats]

Without looking, that sounds about right. I remember something similar.

You'll likely find this to be interesting. My brother worked this up. It doesn't include this season, but I'm sure he or I will update it once the season is complete. This is a look at Manning & Brady vs. common opponents in each of the years that they have played. Obviously injuries happen and one of them might have caught a break by not playing against a key defender, or even an opposing QB or something, but it's a bit of a different approach to Manning v. Brady.

I believe I've posted it before. Some will find it interesting. It's comparing starts, and the one missing game is the game where Brady took over for Bledsoe vs. the Jets, since that was late, and he didn't start, he didn't include it.

No, you aren't a loyal member of the Hate-All-Things-Manning-Clan, but some of your New England brethren are, but that is to be expected. I respect Brady a great deal but that doesn't prevent me from poking fun at some of his off-field antics.

Wow... nearly identical huh?

(And no worries, I'm the first guy in line with an Uggs joke, in case you haven't noticed.)

[GoPats]

Hijacking aside, this has been a great thread... in the event it takes a negative turn over the weekend (I will be away from computers for a couple of days) and gets locked, good talk you guys! LOL...

[southwest1]

Wow... nearly identical huh?

(And no worries, I'm the first guy in line with an Uggs joke, in case you haven't noticed.)

Did someone say Uggs joke?

No, I am NOT calling into question Brady's toughness or masculinity...Quite the contrary, it is brave to make fun of your celebrity status like that. Another reason, I respect Tom Brady personally.

[-JJ-]

Great game JJ. I really had no idea who would win at one point. Defensive struggle first half and shootout in the second.

And yeah....that was really Jake Delhomme. *sigh* The good old days. I used to like him a lot and I have relatives in NC and they still bring this SB up.

I think I remember years ago putting this game in my personal top 5 SB list here and as the most underrated at times. You might not remember though since I am a newb.

Yes great game. Lot of people only remember it as an offensive game but like you said it started off defensive just as it was hyped to be.

I think well into the 2nd qtr Car had minus 7 yards and NE something like +14 yards.

I love those games because you're on the edge of your seat which offense would make the first mistake. Turned out Car did. Once we got a lead Jake heaved a couple low odds bombs for completions. So NE said ok you want to play that way and the shootout began.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Wow... nearly identical huh?

(And no worries, I'm the first guy in line with an Uggs joke, in case you haven't noticed.)

Somewhat similar.

I'm more partial to the pet goat jokes myself.

[JerodMayo51]

Welcome to Peyton's world. Tom/The Patriots/Patriots fans might be beginning to get a hint of an idea of what it is like, but in all honestly it's not even close.

When scoring 30+ points Manning's teams are 79-7 in the regular season and 5-0 in the playoffs.

When scoring 30+ points Brady's teams are 73-3 in the regular season and 5-1 in the playoffs.

That is somewhat close, but when you look at that 30+ on the defensive side of the the equation that is where there is a huge separation.

Brady and his teams are 7-14 when allowing 30+ points in the regular season and 0-2 in the playoffs. 23 times in Brady's 192 combined starts the Patriots have allowed 30+ points 12.0%

Manning and his teams are 9-32 when allowing 30+ points in the regular season and 2-2 in the playoffs.

45 times in Manning's 238 combined starts the Colts/Broncos have allowed 30+ points or 18.9%

At the end of the 2010 season Brady was 55-1 so in 2011/12 he's 18-2 when scoring 30+. He was 6-11 at the end of the 2010 season when allowing 30+ so he's 3-3 since, so it can't quite compare to the defenses Manning has had to deal with for the majority of his entire career.

I've argued many times that Brady is a far better QB now than when he was winning his Super Bowls, and he has had to be. He's not in Manning's zip code when it comes to dealing with bad defenses, but he's got a Realtor looking in the same state.

His defense might not be as bad statistically, although last year they were one of the worst pass defenses ever, but Manning also had more to work with offensively in those years. The Colts defense also had a few key components, namely Freeney, Mathis and Sanders. Your D always kept you in the game because Manning scored a lot of points and you had 2 elite pass rushers going after the opposing QB.

Both have had to literally carry their teams though on their back, Brady has been doing it for years and last year they were ranked 31st (they were 32nd until the final game of the year when the Packers let up a ridiculous amount of yards/points) against the pass and he still brought them all the way to the Super Bowl and nearly won it

[southwest1]

Did someone say Uggs joke?

No, I am NOT calling into question Brady's toughness or masculinity...Quite the contrary, it is brave to make fun of your celebrity status like that. Another reason, I respect Tom Brady personally.

Yeah, hearing that Tom Jones musical track in that TV commercial makes me think, "What new...?" Yup, I like...Uggs shoes too...What? What did you think I meant man?

[JerodMayo51]

I think Manning or Ryan are ahead of Brady in the contention

lol what? Didn't Ryan just last week throw FIVE interceptions in 1 game?

These posts just simply amaze me. How are Manning and Ryan in the discussion, but not Brady? Do you even hear yourself? Look at Brady's stats! Look at his team record! How is he not considered an MVP candidate in your eyes but Matt Ryan and Manning are? Unreal.. BRADY HAS BETTER STATS THAN MANNING AND RYAN! Ryan has thrown 13 interceptions already this year, thats more than 4x as many as Brady and the Falcons have a better D.

Comments like this make me go totally mental. There are so many people on this board that refuse to give Brady his due. They always make him out to be average or someone that takes advantage of a good coach or team... Its so old at this point. Brady has been putting up silly numbers for years now and is one of the most consistent QBs in the entire league over the last several years.

Here is a FACT, The Patriots are averaging the 2nd most points per game IN NFL HISTORY. Second to the 2007 Patriots that were also lead by Tom Brady! He is clearly an MVP contender and anyone who suggests otherwise is obviously bias or has some sort of hatred towards him and don't want to acknowledge his talent or see him succeed.

What has Manning done that is so special this year compared to Brady that makes him the "clear" favorite, where as Brady isnt even CONSIDERED in your MVP voting.. lol.. i have to hear this.

[bayone]

Hijacking aside, this has been a great thread... in the event it takes a negative turn over the weekend (I will be away from computers for a couple of days) and gets locked, good talk you guys! LOL...

The Byrds - Turn! Turn! Turn!

The Byrds - Turn Turn Turn (To Everything There Is A Season)

[southwest1]

lol what? Didn't Ryan just last week throw FIVE interceptions in 1 game?

These posts just simply amaze me. How are Manning and Ryan in the discussion, but not Brady? Do you even hear yourself? Look at Brady's stats! Look at his team record! How is he not considered an MVP candidate in your eyes but Matt Ryan and Manning are? Unreal.. BRADY HAS BETTER STATS THAN MANNING AND RYAN! Ryan has thrown 13 interceptions already this year, thats more than 4x as many as Brady and the Falcons have a better D.

Comments like this make me go totally mental. There are so many people on this board that refuse to give Brady his due. They always make him out to be average or someone that takes advantage of a good coach or team... Its so old at this point. Brady has been putting up silly numbers for years now and is one of the most consistent QBs in the entire league over the last several years.

Here is a FACT, The Patriots are averaging the 2nd most points per game IN NFL HISTORY. Second to the 2007 Patriots that were also lead by Tom Brady! He is clearly an MVP contender and anyone who suggests otherwise is obviously bias or has some sort of hatred towards him and don't want to acknowledge his talent or see him succeed.

What has Manning done that is so special this year compared to Brady that makes him the "clear" favorite, where as Brady isnt even CONSIDERED in your MVP voting.. lol.. i have to hear this.

No argument here JerodMayo51. Brady certainly deserves to be in the MVP conversation & he has a good shot at winning it this year. I don't like to get into debates of Brady is better than Manning. Again, I respect both QBs equally in scope. If Brady wins MVP, I'm cool with it; If Manning wins MVP, I'm cool with it.

[bayone]

lol what? Didn't Ryan just last week throw FIVE interceptions in 1 game?

These posts just simply amaze me. How are Manning and Ryan in the discussion, but not Brady? Do you even hear yourself? Look at Brady's stats! Look at his team record! How is he not considered an MVP candidate in your eyes but Matt Ryan and Manning are? Unreal.. BRADY HAS BETTER STATS THAN MANNING AND RYAN! Ryan has thrown 13 interceptions already this year, thats more than 4x as many as Brady and the Falcons have a better D.

Comments like this make me go totally mental. There are so many people on this board that refuse to give Brady his due. They always make him out to be average or someone that takes advantage of a good coach or team... Its so old at this point. Brady has been putting up silly numbers for years now and is one of the most consistent QBs in the entire league over the last several years.

Here is a FACT, The Patriots are averaging the 2nd most points per game IN NFL HISTORY. Second to the 2007 Patriots that were also lead by Tom Brady! He is clearly an MVP contender and anyone who suggests otherwise is obviously bias or has some sort of hatred towards him and don't want to acknowledge his talent or see him succeed.

What has Manning done that is so special this year compared to Brady that makes him the "clear" favorite, where as Brady isnt even CONSIDERED in your MVP voting.. lol.. i have to hear this.

SEE PREVIOUS PAGE COMMENT 227

first Ryan throws 5 ITs and barely wins then he follows up wiith

Ryan with Brees throwing 5 ITS yesterday only got 165 yards passing 1 TD 55 % completion & only `1 3rd down in entire game made, , no way he can be considered anymore,

he directed other 1 td drive by turner & only got 283 yards total offense off of 5 IT's , come on , thas a joke Vs 436 yards for saints and only falcons only fumled at the 2.30 minute mark of 4th quarter and no points scored off it

He didnt win it Brees threw it away , Brees didnt even get a TD so brees run has ended & its Brady's turn most likelly

brees 5 IT & no TD's amazing

Ryan only 165 yards 1 TD

both about 55 % completion

2 TDs in a game between those 2 teams amazing

falcons

Third Down Efficiency 1/11 - 9%

Total Net Yards 283

Saints

Third Down Efficiency 7/14 - 50%

Total Net Yards 436

[Vance]

Brady is killing it this year, he definitely is making a strong case.

[JerodMayo51]

I'm sorry, Clark was a terrible pass blocker and run blocker. Had good hands and route, but couldnt take big hits.

Well ive been posting on this board and some others since 2001 or 2002, and Colts fans were saying back then that Clark was the best Tight End in the entire league. Now that he has moved on, he wasn't any good? I specifically remember the arguments back then, when the Colts had Pollard and Clark, and there were even comparisons and debates between the Pats Tight Ends in Watson and Graham. Clark was a huge part of the Colts offense years ago and was a very talented player.

[bayone]

Well ive been posting on this board and some others since 2001 or 2002, and Colts fans were saying back then that Clark was the best Tight End in the entire league. Now that he has moved on, he wasn't any good? I specifically remember the arguments back then, when the Colts had Pollard and Clark, and there were even comparisons and debates between the Pats Tight Ends in Watson and Graham. Clark was a huge part of the Colts offense years ago and was a very talented player.

In those early days it was Ken Dilger and Pollard that made a great duo , Dilger was bigger body than clark, would catch a ball and go backwards another 5 yards downfield taking the DB with him

Gilger was a colt threw 01

Pollard was a coilt through 04 then went to lions

so i dont know who was other TE in 02 besides Pollard

Clark first yeear was 2003 though 04 through 06 were OK he didnt & catch 500 yards nor double digit TDs till 2007 though was a good TE with Pollard who was main weapon when Clark first started

Yes Clark is beloved as a receiver TE , NONE DARE SAY WE DIDNT RAVE ABOUT HIM < I AM WITH U ON THAT but he really cant block to well

[southwest1]

BTW this is the best movie clip. EVER.

Thank you kindly southwest. I never said I was running for Miss Popularity on Colts.com either cause sometimes I swear I can feel cyber glares or eye rolls. ;)

Overall, there is a small SMALL group of QBs who are going to be highly regarded as potential MVPs before the season even begins by the media. It will take a lot more by a non chosen one to overshadow them no matter what your position and even if you have the season of your life and levitate off the ground at times doing it.

It's fine though. Hey if RG3 wins the rookie thing good for him. Let him have it.

As for MVP I do find it almost interesting though that the last player to win MVP and win the SB was Kurt Warner.......

Is MVP almost a jinx now? Is having an MVP on your team a sign he is covering up weaknesses many are glossing over? Is it better to be MVP less and more balanced as a team like say Houston?

As for this years MVP I think it is Manning UNLESS Brady starts to switch voters minds if he plays lights out vs. teams like Houston and SF. But, as we saw last year thats difficult. Brees could not switch the minds of voters who were set on Rodgers. Last year was the crowing of Rodgers following his SB win. And it gave Favre fans "something to talk about."

But, Brady will be considered more highly then Brees and we all probably know this.

Overall I am not putting down the genius of Peyton and Tom. But, like you southwest I like to consider others.....and different positions too.

For me personally, this seasons MVP is Reggie Wayne. Would never happen in a million years but I don't think we could live without him. Now and going back to the offseason where his leadership and playmaking HOF ability has been crucial to this young transitioning squad and more then ever post Pagano cancer news.

BTW I do think Rodgers and Brees both deserved it last year and Rodgers did earn his MVP but 4 votes for Brees? What were they relatives of Drews?

That's why I love your analysis Jules. You speak your mind, tell the truth, & lay out all the cards on the table. You're exactly right too. The chase for the MVP race is strictly a popularity contest among journalists in the sports world like a prom king/queen walking down the runway with camera flashing, hands waving, and incessant smiling everywhere. Clint Eastwood directed a film in 1990 called "White Hunter Black Heart" where he played a forget the proper way of doing things director who became obsessed with shooting an elephant on the continent of Africa.

At 1 point during the film, he talks about oscars and awards and how the wrong people always win them. People who don't deserve them etc. etc. This reminds me of the MVP debate in sports. It's time to defy convention & widen the net or possible pool of candidates IMO. Manning, Brady, Brees, & Rogers won't be here forever...Sure WR Reggie Wayne is a perfect off the beaten path choice too. I like it!

I think you might be onto something about an MVP Award SB Jinx too...Not since Kurt Warner eh? Scary isn't it? Keep being the rebel James Dean Jules...I will always back you up & admire you for it.

[southwest1]

I wonder what a hailstorm it would create among media circles if either Brady or Manning said "Ah, I'm shooting for a SB victory this year Roger. I don't want this shiny hood ornament. Give it to the runner up. Thanks." Just Kidding!!!

It would be worth it just to see Goodell's reaction on National TV...Huh? What?!!

To quote Commander-In-Chief Lyndon Johnson: " Being president is like being a jack caboose in a hailstorm. There's nothing to do but to stand there and take it." Just change the word President with the word NFL Commissioner right Rodger?

[Tony Sullivan]

He is playing at the highest level of any QB right now.

I'm probably late to the party, but I'm pretty sure Brady is one of the top two guys everyone is talking for as MVP.

[southwest1]

Yikes you just set this one up for me to hit out of the park.. Ive made an argument in the past that shed light on just how much draft picks and money the Colts invested into the offensive side of the ball on skill positions for Manning his ENTIRE career.. Ill just go off of my memory for now, then I'll dig more and fill in anything I missed...

He started his career with Marvin Harrison and Marshal Faulk on his roster.. Those names ring a bell? They're first ballot hall of famers.. Pretty nice to start your career with, I would say.

Then they drafted Reggie Wayne with a 1st round pick, Dallas Clark with a 1st round pick, Edjerin James with a first round pick, Joseph Addai with a 1st round pick, Anthony Gonzales with a first round pick, Donald Brown with a 1st round pick... Who am I forgetting? That doesn;t even include the offensive lineman that they drafted as well, I think 1-2 of those were 1st round talents as well..

In fact, Manning has had outstanding skill players throughout his entire career, way higher caliber than Brady has ever had.

I remember when the argument use to be because Manning put up better stats than Brady early on in his career, but thats because their offense didn't have a silly number of weapons for Brady to sling it around the yard with. He still had very good numbers, just not "Peyton Manningesque" numbers. That all changed in 2007, when the front office actually went out and started investing some money and picks into skill players like Moss, Stallworth and Welker. What did he do then? Oh yea, he broke the all time TD and point record... Go figure... Give him some weapons and he puts up record breaking stats. Then a lot of fans here gave all the credit to Moss, saying that Moss makes any Quarterback look better than he really is and that was the only reason for Brady's success.. Then they trade Moss away and evolve their offense yet again (Brady has gone through so many offensive coordinators.. Manning had Moore as his O coordinator for the majority of his career) and now this year, the Patriots are the 2nd highest points per game in league history... second behind who you ask? Oh yea, the 2007 Patriots, lead by Tom Brady... and hes doing it without Randy Moss...

Go figure!

The idea that "Biggest name guys Manning has had was Harrison and Wayne." is insanely misleading. He has had outstanding talent his entire career around him, and had it continually added to his roster year after year by the front office. There is nothing wrong with that philosophy, if you have a great QB you surround him with talent and try to score 30+ points a game, but that isn't the only way to build/run your team. Manning has great talent around him out in Denver as well with Thomas and Decker. They have some RB issues, but the Patriots are no stranger to a poor running game. It wasn't until this year that they've had a solid RB since Corey Dillon..

A logical, truthful, & very accurate post JerodMayo51. I cannot refute 1 word of it. Peyton's always had high caliber talent surrounding him. But, Brady hasn't been that lucky over the entire span of his NFL career.

[ViriLudant]

Brady became the first QB in NFL history to lead his team to 10 divisional championships.

Not sure how many Peyton had, but it was less than 9, as Joe Montana was 2nd with 9.

[DILLIGAFER]

Brady became the first QB in NFL history to lead his team to 10 divisional championships.

Not sure how many Peyton had, but it was less than 9, as Joe Montana was 2nd with 9.

After this Broncos game.. go check that stat again..

[ViriLudant]

Again, Peyton wasn't even at 9, so how he magically leaped to 10 is a bit impossible...

[DILLIGAFER]

Again, Peyton wasn't even at 9, so how he magically leaped to 10 is a bit impossible...

What?!? You said you didnt know how many Peyton had so I said check after this game. Why? Because it will increase due to the fact the Broncos will have clinched their division. What in the heck are you talking about?!

[ViriLudant]

No, read what I wrote. I said that Montana was in second place with 9, so Peyton couldn't catch up to Brady in this. Perhaps Montana, though .