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Snowglobe

No one is talking about Brady for MVP

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I'm saying Tebow and last years Broncos have no bearing on whether or not Peyton should get the award. It's irrelevant. It shouldn't even come into the equation.

Uhhh, yes it should.. The whole point of this argument is the most VALUABLE player to their team. The Broncos proved they were a playoff team last year that went to the divisional round with a SCRUB at quarterback, literally one of the worst QBs in the entire league lead that team into the post season and even knocked off the Steelers in the first round. The Broncos are a good TEAM, that is why Peyton Manning picked them when he became a free agent and had his pick from pretty much any team. It was a complete team and all it was missing was an elite quarterback to put it in Championship contention.

His team is good, the Broncos don't just rely on Manning to win them every single game, they have an all around complete team that can win games multiple ways. Brady's defense is horrendous, it was 31st last year and its pretty bad this year. They lead the league in big plays over 20 yards, so Brady is constantly having to go back onto the field and put 7 up just to protect his defense. Without Brady, this offense goes nowhere and therefor the team goes nowhere... That is not true of the Broncos, which is the very definition of the MVP.

This was the exact argument Colt's fans were using years ago for Manning on the Colts, but now that the situation and circumstances have changed, conveniently so have your criteria for the NFL MVP.

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Uhhh, yes it should.. The whole point of this argument is the most VALUABLE player to their team. The Broncos proved they were a playoff team last year that went to the divisional round with a SCRUB at quarterback, literally one of the worst QBs in the entire league lead that team into the post season and even knocked off the Steelers in the first round. The Broncos are a good TEAM, that is why Peyton Manning picked them when he became a free agent and had his pick from pretty much any team. It was a complete team and all it was missing was an elite quarterback to put it in Championship contention.His team is good, the Broncos don't just rely on Manning to win them every single game, they have an all around complete team that can win games multiple ways. Brady's defense is horrendous, it was 31st last year and its pretty bad this year. They lead the league in big plays over 20 yards, so Brady is constantly having to go back onto the field and put 7 up just to protect his defense. Without Brady, this offense goes nowhere and therefor the team goes nowhere... That is not true of the Broncos, which is the very definition of the MVP.This was the exact argument Colt's fans were using years ago for Manning on the Colts, but now that the situation and circumstances have changed, conveniently so have your criteria for the NFL MVP.

You see, I like to use evidence when having a debate. It is not always possible, but here we have a little. Colts had one season without Manning, and we crashed to worst in the league. Brady missed one season........you get the rest.

Brady is clearly the most valuable player to the Patriots, but why does that make him more valuable than Peterson is to the Vikes, or Luck to the Colts, Rodgers to the Packers etc? I'd be keen to understand your rationale.

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Except that 2 of those 4 were balls that bounced off of the HANDS of his receivers, those are not on the Quarterback. Brady is still missing a true #1 receiver, he hasn't had one since Randy Moss, and before that he never had one his entire career.

So WTH is Wes Welker?

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They won!

Made the plays when they count. All the yards look ugly and scary I know but.....

and I don't care who you play, Jax or SF...they're all NFL teams who come to play too.

 

As Vince said, we weren't energized enough at the beginning. Just because the big bad Patriots (his words:) were coming to town against a less than stellar team.......well they soon realized they were in a dogfight. Henne has always burned us the 1st half. What separates

 the good teams is can you sustain that for 60 min. Jax couldn't, we could.

 

Still..BB does well with what he has in secondary. McCourty is better at safety but with injuries its great BB can move players around. Including Bob at LB with Spikes out.

 

Always the optimist, which is why you're Da Man. :thmup:

 

But if you look at the Patriots' postseason losses over the past years, at least the most disappointing ones, there's a consistency to them. AFCCG after the '06 season? The defense disappeared in the second half. The first SB against the Giants? Pats held the lead until the defense cracked. The divisional game they lost to the Jets? Made Sanchez look like an MVP. Last SB? Almost the same exact scenario as the first one against the Giants. Scored late, then couldn't hold the lead.

 

So call me crazy, but I remain very pessimistic when it comes to the Patriots' defense getting key stops. Holding off Chad Henne and the Jags doesn't make me feel any better about it. Turnovers are great, but you can't "rely" on getting them, and there are games where it looks like you or me could go out there and complete a few passes against these guys.

 

If Brady and the offense don't put up 30 points, it's always a tight game. Unfortunately that's what the playoffs are.

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Except that 2 of those 4 were balls that bounced off of the HANDS of his receivers, those are not on the Quarterback. Brady is still missing a true #1 receiver, he hasn't had one since Randy Moss, and before that he never had one his entire career.

 

Oh let's not do that... the whole, "the receiver ran the wrong route" or "it went off this guy's hands" or whatever. I don't want to make excuses for Brady. Indy fans did that for Manning all the time (especially the SB INT to Porter, where Reggie Wayne took the brunt of the blame) and we gave them crap for it.

 

Besides, for every INT off a deflection there are probably two balls he threw during the course of the season that SHOULD have been picked off.

 

Aside from the 10 or so minutes where the Patriots roared back against the 49ers, Brady has not played that great the past two weeks. He still may get MVP, even if he has a so-so game against Miami, and he's still the best QB I've ever seen, but I'm just trying to give an honest assessment. At this point, I think there are a couple of guys ahead of him.

 

 

You see, I like to use evidence when having a debate. It is not always possible, but here we have a little. Colts had one season without Manning, and we crashed to worst in the league. Brady missed one season........you get the rest. Brady is clearly the most valuable player to the Patriots, but why does that make him more valuable than Peterson is to the Vikes, or Luck to the Colts, Rodgers to the Packers etc? I'd be keen to understand your rationale.

 

The only part of this that I struggle with is that the Colts weren't a "true" 2-win team last year, IMO. They were 14-2 in 2009, then 10-6 in 2010... the drop to 2-14 was mostly due to extremely shoddy QB play from the collection of inept backups that Indy had put together. If the Colts had even a halfway decent backup, they still should have won 6 or 8 games in 2011. But you saw the team last year. They basically quit. It was "suck for Luck" from the get-go.

 

I've seen "real" 2-14 teams before, as have many long-time Indy fans. The 2010 Colts were far, far better than their record.

 

 

Assuming he fares pretty well this last weekend, if I had a vote at this point, I'd have to give it to AP.

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Uhhh, yes it should.. The whole point of this argument is the most VALUABLE player to their team. The Broncos proved they were a playoff team last year that went to the divisional round with a SCRUB at quarterback, literally one of the worst QBs in the entire league lead that team into the post season and even knocked off the Steelers in the first round. The Broncos are a good TEAM, that is why Peyton Manning picked them when he became a free agent and had his pick from pretty much any team. It was a complete team and all it was missing was an elite quarterback to put it in Championship contention.

His team is good, the Broncos don't just rely on Manning to win them every single game, they have an all around complete team that can win games multiple ways. Brady's defense is horrendous, it was 31st last year and its pretty bad this year. They lead the league in big plays over 20 yards, so Brady is constantly having to go back onto the field and put 7 up just to protect his defense. Without Brady, this offense goes nowhere and therefor the team goes nowhere... That is not true of the Broncos, which is the very definition of the MVP.

This was the exact argument Colt's fans were using years ago for Manning on the Colts, but now that the situation and circumstances have changed, conveniently so have your criteria for the NFL MVP.

Don't target me as a part of a larger whole. I disagree that Peyton should have won based on his how his defense played. That makes no sense. And your argument that Brady should win based on his defense makes no sense. Why? THEY DON'T PLAY DEFENSE! What the defense does or doesn't do is irrelevant. Had the Pats lost every game in 2007, yet Brady had put up the same numbers he did, I believe Brady still should have won. Because he played lights out. He was phenomenal. And that's what matters. Should he not have won the award just because his defense was good that year? Would you have gone along with that? I don't think you would, nor should you. So don't expect others to concur with you that Peyton shouldn't win just because his defense is pretty good this year and his weapons on offense have developed into legitimate threats. It's about what he has done this year.

MVP is an individual award. An award for the league's most valuable PLAYER, not TEAM. It should be based on his contribution over the season and not based on what the other facets of the team does, i.e. D and ST.

The real MVP is Adrian Peterson. His efforts have opened up the offense. He is being targeted every week and has still performed big. I would go as far as saying that it is harder for a running back than a quarterback to perform at such a high level week in and week out. They take a lot more physical punishment and they don't have the luxury of having multiple options as to where the ball goes. They have to make the play happen with their feet.

Again, I'm not trying to convince you that Peyton is the MVP and that Tom Brady isn't. I'm objecting to your criteria. In my estimation Tom Brady is the top QB this year and should have been the MVP except that Adrian Peterson has emerged as a pure beast. If Tom wins it, I would be fine with that.

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The only part of this that I struggle with is that the Colts weren't a "true" 2-win team last year, IMO. They were 14-2 in 2009, then 10-6 in 2010... the drop to 2-14 was mostly due to extremely shoddy QB play from the collection of inept backups that Indy had put together. If the Colts had even a halfway decent backup, they still should have won 6 or 8 games in 2011. But you saw the team last year. They basically quit. It was "suck for Luck" from the get-go.

 

I've seen "real" 2-14 teams before, as have many long-time Indy fans. The 2010 Colts were far, far better than their record.

 

I've used this example a time or two and will likely use it a few more times.

Peyton Manning's injury was the reason the Colts weren't a 10+ win team in 2011. It was not the reason they were 2-14. The reason they were 2-14 as opposed to 5-11 or 6-10 was the worst coaching staff in football. The combination of Caldwell, Coyer & Christenesen did not do the players any favors.

 

As soon as Manning goes under the knife for the 2nd time, his offense should have have been set aside, and they bring in something simple. I formation, use the same terminology, route names/#'s,etc so that the bulk of the players are still on the same page, and that would have given Collins a better chance of having success. Then they tried the same thing with Curtis Painter, who had no business being on an NFL roster much less starting 10 or whatever games it was.  Mistakes like that is what turned the 2011 Colts into a 2 win team. 

 

They could have made changes and easily had 5,6 maybe 7 wins. They had a number of games that were still one-score games, but they could have/should have had a much better season than they did.

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Brady missed one season........you get the rest.

I'll bite... You seem to forget that Cassel took a team that nearly went undefeated the previous year and he failed to even make the playoffs with that same team after Brady went down. So I don't see your argument at all, they won 7 less games that year with Cassel than they had with Brady in 07, so that destroys that argument.

In addition, the Patriots in '08 had the 3rd easiest schedule in NFL history that year, go look it up, unless of course you want to let facts get in the way of your argument. Every team that Cassel beat was under .500, every single team that he played against that had a .500 or better record he LOST.

That just shows how important Brady is to this team, when he goes down the team wins 7 less games and misses the playoffs... With Brady, it nearly goes undefeated. Huge difference.

Manning has the luxury of playing with an amazing defense, a great offensive line and a strong running game. He also has a true #1 receiver in Demarius Thomas, you know.. the first round pick from a few years ago for the Broncos. He is an outstanding talent, a legit and true #1 WR, something Brady has only had once in his entire career with Randy Moss (and proceeded to break all sorts of records.

Without Brady, this team would be horrendous. All of his receivers are small targets, so the level of accuracy he needs to hit Woodhead, Welker, Branch and Lloyd is astounding. He has 2 big targets in Hernandez and Gronk, but neither of them have been on the field at the same time all year (with the exception of 1 game).

He has had so many injuries to his offensive line this year, they were constantly having to move players around and rotate them all over the line, and Brady has been getting MURDERED these last few games. He has taken so many hits, some of which me and my friends when we saw them thought he may not even be able to get back up from them. There is this illusion that Colts fans have that Brady has all day to just sit and throw the ball, but its simply not true. Manning's offensive line is much better this year than Brady's. Brady has been getting pummeled all year long, but he still stands in there and takes the shots and delivers the ball. He got sacked 2-3 plays in a row last week and it happened in the 49ers game too. He has to get the ball out extremely quickly, but guys like Brandon Lloyd and Deion Branch are not getting enough separation on their routes because A) Branch is old and slow now and B) Lloyd isnt a true #1 receiver, he is a good #2 but not a #1.

The fact that Brady has been dealing with so many injuries to the offensive side of the ball all year long, mostly to his offensive line and his 2 main weapons in Gronk and Hernandez, and is still leading the 2nd highest scoring offensive in NFL history (2nd only to Tom Brady's 2007 offense, btw), is simply amazing. Without him, the Patriots would be horrible this year.

Also keep in mind that the first 3 losses of their season were by a COMBINED point total of 4.... Brady has to play perfect nearly every game for them to be in it, because the defense gives up so many big plays its not even funny. Look at the 49ers game, Brady mounts an epic comeback and then special teams gives up a 60 yard kickoff return, followed by a pass play to Michael Crabtree that he takes 40 more yards to the house. 1 kickoff return and 1 play later and there are 7 more points on the board. That is Brady's life, that is what he has to deal with every single week. There is an insane amount of pressure on him to perform each and every week because the Patriots only go as far as Brady takes them.

This is not true of the Broncos. They were the AFC West Champs last year and made it 1 game shy of the AFC Championship Game.. That is why Manning picked them in free agency, he knew how solid their team was and it was an ideal situation for him to go into. Manning is having a good year, and he deserves the comeback player of the year for sure, but he isn't as valuable to the Broncos as Brady is to the Patriots.

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So WTH is Wes Welker?

?????

Wes Welker is not a #1 receiver, he is a SLOT receiver. He is a possession receiver, he is as tall as I am which is 5'8".. He is a midget by football standards. That is not what a #1 receiver is, a #1 receiver is a big, physical receiver that can stretch the field deep and catch balls inside and take punishing hits. A #1 receiver can out jump and outfight people for a ball, Welker cannot. Brady has to be pin point with his passes to Welker because he is such a small target, another thing that people seem to overlook.

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And your argument that Brady should win based on his defense makes no sense. Why? THEY DON'T PLAY DEFENSE! What the defense does or doesn't do is irrelevant.

I completely disagree and here is why. In fact, this is the very same argument Colts fans used in early 2000's for Manning...

What Brady's defense does IS relevant, because we're talking about the MVP (Most VALUABLE player) to their respective teams. If you have an outstanding defense, then there isn't as much pressure on the QB to perform exceptionally every single week. That is not the case this year with Brady, he HAS to perform and score 30+ points every single week or his defense will fail him. That by definition, makes him more VALUABLE to his team than Manning is to the Broncos this year. That is not to say that Manning isn't valuable, or isn't good,hes been playing real good football this year, but Brady has to do more every single week for the Patriots to win.

The Patriots defense makes Chad Henne and scrub Qbs look like they're the next 1st ballot hall of famer. That means Brady is constantly having to perform at an exceptional level to win. If Brady has an off day, they will lose.

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Always the optimist, which is why you're Da Man. :thmup:

 

But if you look at the Patriots' postseason losses over the past years, at least the most disappointing ones, there's a consistency to them. AFCCG after the '06 season? The defense disappeared in the second half. The first SB against the Giants? Pats held the lead until the defense cracked. The divisional game they lost to the Jets? Made Sanchez look like an MVP. Last SB? Almost the same exact scenario as the first one against the Giants. Scored late, then couldn't hold the lead.

 

So call me crazy, but I remain very pessimistic when it comes to the Patriots' defense getting key stops. Holding off Chad Henne and the Jags doesn't make me feel any better about it. Turnovers are great, but you can't "rely" on getting them, and there are games where it looks like you or me could go out there and complete a few passes against these guys.

 

If Brady and the offense don't put up 30 points, it's always a tight game. Unfortunately that's what the playoffs are.

Do you honestly think that the Patriots tried to do anything interesting on Sunday?

Greg Bedard on the radio today (or perhaps yesterday) came out and said that the Patriots were keeping things as vanilla as possible.

No interesting blitzes.

Keeping people on the sideline to keep healthy as much as possible.

Etc.

The Patriots weren't trying to lose on Sunday, but they were trying to keep things as basic as possible to give their playoff opponents as little game-tape as possible.

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I completely disagree and here is why. In fact, this is the very same argument Colts fans used in early 2000's for Manning...

What Brady's defense does IS relevant, because we're talking about the MVP (Most VALUABLE player) to their respective teams. If you have an outstanding defense, then there isn't as much pressure on the QB to perform exceptionally every single week. That is not the case this year with Brady, he HAS to perform and score 30+ points every single week or his defense will fail him. That by definition, makes him more VALUABLE to his team than Manning is to the Broncos this year. That is not to say that Manning isn't valuable, or isn't good,hes been playing real good football this year, but Brady has to do more every single week for the Patriots to win.

The Patriots defense makes Chad Henne and scrub Qbs look like they're the next 1st ballot hall of famer. That means Brady is constantly having to perform at an exceptional level to win. If Brady has an off day, they will lose.

Well, I guess it is useless to argue with you as it seema that you have a misunderstanding of waht a league MVP is. It is about individual effort and it is an individual award. It is not about who is most valuable to their perspective teams, because that is not quantifiable

Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that Peterson hasn't had at least as good of a year as Brady if not better? Or is your Patriot homerism getting in the way of objectivity? Peterson should be the MVP.

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?????

Wes Welker is not a #1 receiver, he is a SLOT receiver. He is a possession receiver, he is as tall as I am which is 5'8".. He is a midget by football standards. That is not what a #1 receiver is, a #1 receiver is a big, physical receiver that can stretch the field deep and catch balls inside and take punishing hits. A #1 receiver can out jump and outfight people for a ball, Welker cannot. Brady has to be pin point with his passes to Welker because he is such a small target, another thing that people seem to overlook.

 

I love me some Wes Welker, but you are absolutely, positively, 100% correct. Production aside, he is not a "true" #1 receiver the likes of an Andre Johnson, Megatron, Brandon Marshall, etc. Those guys have the ability to fight through contact, beat double and even triple teams, etc. Welker is probably the best (or at least most productive) slot receiver in NFL history. But that does not make him a true #1.

 

Do you honestly think that the Patriots tried to do anything interesting on Sunday?

Greg Bedard on the radio today (or perhaps yesterday) came out and said that the Patriots were keeping things as vanilla as possible.

No interesting blitzes.

Keeping people on the sideline to keep healthy as much as possible.

Etc.

The Patriots weren't trying to lose on Sunday, but they were trying to keep things as basic as possible to give their playoff opponents as little game-tape as possible.

 

I chalked it up more to the absence of Dennard and not having Talib at full strength more than strategy, but I wasn't really considering that.

 

That does makes me feel a little better... I didn't hear Bedard's interview. I'm a little surprised though, that seems very un-Belichickian of them to do (not the resting injured players part as much as the looking forward to two or three weeks out part). They very well could have lost that game, which would have been costly...

 

Watching Sunday's game, it felt like September and October all over again. The coverage was just terrible. I guess, now that you've mentioned this, it kind of makes sense... they dialed up blitzes when Hightower got Henne on 3rd and goal and then Jones got a piece of him on the Chung INT.

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Well, I guess it is useless to argue with you as it seema that you have a misunderstanding of waht a league MVP is. It is about individual effort and it is an individual award. It is not about who is most valuable to their perspective teams, because that is not quantifiable

Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that Peterson hasn't had at least as good of a year as Brady if not better? Or is your Patriot homerism getting in the way of objectivity? Peterson should be the MVP.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what the criteria for the award is. "To the player adjudged to be most valuable to his team." I checked quickly for a source and couldn't find one, but that language (in quotes) is exactly how I've always heard it mentioned by the NFL.

 

Nothing when it comes to this type of award is truly quantifiable. Sometimes it's more obvious than others (like in 2010, when Brady was the first and only unanimous choice) but it's always a subjective judgment call by someone.

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Well, I guess it is useless to argue with you as it seema that you have a misunderstanding of waht a league MVP is. It is about individual effort and it is an individual award. It is not about who is most valuable to their perspective teams, because that is not quantifiable

Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that Peterson hasn't had at least as good of a year as Brady if not better? Or is your Patriot homerism getting in the way of objectivity? Peterson should be the MVP.

I actually argued for Adrian Peterson several weeks ago in this forum. The debate we were having was basically a Manning vs Brady this year for MVP argument. I would not have problem with AP getting the MVP, RBs barely ever get any recognition and what he is doing in Minnesota with defenses stacking 8-9 in the box against him is simply amazing. He is carrying the Vikings on his back from the RB position, something that is very, very rare to see in this league, especially in the modern era.

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I actually argued for Adrian Peterson several weeks ago in this forum. The debate we were having was basically a Manning vs Brady this year for MVP argument. I would not have problem with AP getting the MVP, RBs barely ever get any recognition and what he is doing in Minnesota with defenses stacking 8-9 in the box against him is simply amazing. He is carrying the Vikings on his back from the RB position, something that is very, very rare to see in this league, especially in the modern era.

Okay then, I guess we aren't really in an argument at all. I thought you were ignoring my calls for Peterson as MVP on purpose to get to me. No harm, no foul I say.

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Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what the criteria for the award is. "To the player adjudged to be most valuable to his team." I checked quickly for a source and couldn't find one, but that language (in quotes) is exactly how I've always heard it mentioned by the NFL.

Nothing when it comes to this type of award is truly quantifiable. Sometimes it's more obvious than others (like in 2010, when Brady was the first and only unanimous choice) but it's always a subjective judgment call by someone.

The first year I heard that was when the media was touting Peyton for MVP in 2008, when he clearly, at least to me, was not the most dominating player in the league. But let's be honest here, this award is supposed to go to the best player in the league for that season only. The most valuable player to a team doesn't mean that player had a dominant year, that's why it shouldn't have such a big impact on the voting, and that's why it's bologna that Peyton won in '08. A number of QBs put performed him that year. I think the team aspect should come into the equation when there isn't a clear choice.
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:flaming: So many  Anti-Manning fans...

On a board of a Team that he did so much for...

makes me :nutz:  :headspin:  :scratch:  :dunno:  :thinking:  :scratch:  :panic::bomb:  :flaming:

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:flaming: So many  Anti-Manning fans...

On a board of a Team that he did so much for...

makes me :nutz:  :headspin:  :scratch:  :dunno:  :thinking:  :scratch:  :panic::bomb:  :flaming:

At least the views from Boston are understandable. 

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:flaming: So many Anti-Manning fans...

On a board of a Team that he did so much for...

makes me :nutz::headspin::scratch::dunno::thinking::scratch::panic::bomb::flaming:

I don't see it as anti-Manning in the slightest. No one is saying he isn't playing great, or hasn't had an amazing year.

Saying he is not MVP is not anti.

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I don't see it as anti-Manning in the slightest. No one is saying he isn't playing great, or hasn't had an amazing year.

Saying he is not MVP is not anti.

I wasn't just referring to this thread.  Just in General on this board.  There is a lot of hatred towards him, and yes, a lot of Anti-Manning.

 

As far as MVP,  your comment is Fair enough.   I just happen to  see him as league MVP. 

Him being "back in the game"  has added an abundance of excitement to the the entire NFL again.  Just my opinion.

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I wasn't just referring to this thread.  Just in General on this board.  There is a lot of hatred towards him, and yes, a lot of Anti-Manning.

 

As far as MVP,  your comment is Fair enough.   I just happen to  see him as league MVP. 

Him being "back in the game"  has added an abundance of excitement to the the entire NFL again.  Just my opinion.

 

Peyton being back in the game is certainly good for the NFL...there isn't a single fan of this game (other than a couple 13 year old Patriots fans here in New England I would imagine) who were happy to see him miss time. But that shouldn't factor into MVP voting. Broncolt seems to think that because he switched teams and found success, that somehow should 'tip the scales' in his favor. He thinks that because Peyton missed a season and was able to come back and be...well....himself....that he should just simply be awarded the MVP for having a typical Peyton Manning season. 

 

Unfortunately there a a couple other guys having great seasons...and coming to a playoff team and getting them a first round bye isnt the 'trump card' Broncolt thinks it is in any discussion for or against him winning another MVP. As some have mentioned...I do think Brady 'lost it' the last two weeks and it became a two man race. But my vote would be for Adrian Peterson even if Brady was still in the running. The things he is doing on that field are historical, and getting passed that 'Peyton used to be ours I still love him' phase would go a long way in being objective on a lot of these topics.

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Since the MVP is indisputably a subjective thing, Manning and Peterson's respective comebacks from 2011 will almost definitely impact the voting. Even if it shouldn't. They're both pretty compelling stories... one guy coming back from an ACL less than a year ago and another coming back, on a new team, after being out of football for a full year... no one's arguing that. But really, it shouldn't impact the MVP race, even if it will.

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Peyton being back in the game is certainly good for the NFL...there isn't a single fan of this game (other than a couple 13 year old Patriots fans here in New England I would imagine) who were happy to see him miss time. But that shouldn't factor into MVP voting. Broncolt seems to think that because he switched teams and found success, that somehow should 'tip the scales' in his favor. He thinks that because Peyton missed a season and was able to come back and be...well....himself....that he should just simply be awarded the MVP for having a typical Peyton Manning season.

Unfortunately there a a couple other guys having great seasons...and coming to a playoff team and getting them a first round bye isnt the 'trump card' Broncolt thinks it is in any discussion for or against him winning another MVP. As some have mentioned...I do think Brady 'lost it' the last two weeks and it became a two man race. But my vote would be for Adrian Peterson even if Brady was still in the running. The things he is doing on that field are historical, and getting passed that 'Peyton used to be ours I still love him' phase would go a long way in being objective on a lot of these topics.

Love how you single me out.. i think thats called Baiting..

Broncolt this Broncolt that.. how about thats what the Big Heads are saying as well.. your making it like I'm saying just because he is winning with the Broncos he deserves MVP.. are you that delusional? He has the best QB rating in the leauge, playing lights out, ect. He makes the team around him better and the players better.. deified the odds.. THATS an MVP.

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Love how you single me out.. i think thats called Baiting..

Broncolt this Broncolt that.. how about thats what the Big Heads are saying as well.. your making it like I'm saying just because he is winning with the Broncos he deserves MVP.. are you that delusional? He has the best QB rating in the leauge, playing lights out, ect. He makes the team around him better and the players better.. deified the odds.. THATS an MVP.

 

Technically...

 

He is 4th among starters in QB rating.

 

6th in passing yards.

 

3rd in TDs.

 

All very respectable, mind you. But you know what they say about stats anyway. ;)

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Love how you single me out.. i think thats called Baiting..

Broncolt this Broncolt that.. how about thats what the Big Heads are saying as well.. your making it like I'm saying just because he is winning with the Broncos he deserves MVP.. are you that delusional? He has the best QB rating in the leauge, playing lights out, ect. He makes the team around him better and the players better.. deified the odds.. THATS an MVP.

 

I singled you out because you've been the most outspoken. Believe it or not, you have made the case that because he switched teams and had to play with new players/coaches, that makes him the MVP. I just don't understand how playing with new guys or having different coaches and being successful automatically makes a player the MVP. 

 

As far as your other points...every 'elite' quarterback in the league makes the team around him better. Most 'elite' quarterbacks in the league do play 'lights out' on a consistent basis. Your other two points....best qb rating in the league (which is false) and the fact that he 'defied the odds' is what makes him the MVP? That sounds like the script for a Disney Movie, not the proof you think you have of why this guy should hands down win the award. 

 

I'm not a Manning basher, and he very well may win it. But the reasons you have been giving us for weeks just arent what I would consider when picking the guy...thats all.

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Love how you single me out.. i think thats called Baiting..

Broncolt this Broncolt that.. how about thats what the Big Heads are saying as well.. your making it like I'm saying just because he is winning with the Broncos he deserves MVP.. are you that delusional? He has the best QB rating in the leauge, playing lights out, ect. He makes the team around him better and the players better.. deified the odds.. THATS an MVP.

just so that we get all the facts straight, Rodgers is leading the league in QB rating, and acutally has more TDs, fewer picks than Manning, plays in a division with teams that have collectively 10 more wins than the opponents in the AFC west, and but for a close call at the end of the GB-SEA game has the same record as the broncos . . . but somehow no one is giving Rodgers any love . . .

just a few facts to throw into the discussion in this thread . . .

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just so that we get all the facts straight, Rodgers is leading the league in QB rating, and acutally has more TDs, fewer picks than Manning, plays in a division with teams that have collectively 10 more wins than the opponents in the AFC west, and but for a close call at the end of the GB-SEA game has the same record as the broncos . . . but somehow no one is giving Rodgers any love . . .

just a few facts to throw into the discussion in this thread . . .

 

Facts? We don't need no stinkin' facts... ;)

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I singled you out because you've been the most outspoken. Believe it or not, you have made the case that because he switched teams and had to play with new players/coaches, that makes him the MVP. I just don't understand how playing with new guys or having different coaches and being successful automatically makes a player the MVP.

As far as your other points...every 'elite' quarterback in the league makes the team around him better. Most 'elite' quarterbacks in the league do play 'lights out' on a consistent basis. Your other two points....best qb rating in the league (which is false) and the fact that he 'defied the odds' is what makes him the MVP? That sounds like the script for a Disney Movie, not the proof you think you have of why this guy should hands down win the award.

I'm not a Manning basher, and he very well may win it. But the reasons you have been giving us for weeks just arent what I would consider when picking the guy...thats all.

Uh, no I didnt. And no I'm not.. so posters like Gramz, Oldunclemark, ect are not outspoken on this?

I stated a new team, new players, new coaches, AND the fact he is playing one if not the best he has ever played, took an 8-8 mediocre offense to a 13-3 record with the chance at the #1 seed, almost for sure the #2 seed for the playoffs, a top 5 ranked offense, has already broke several Broncos team records and the season isnt even done yet, improves the play and focus of everyone else around him, ect, ect.. do I need to continue?

I find it funny people such as yourself twist my words and then use the same argument in favor of AD against Manning.. just hilarious.

Now for the defense because I know thats where many of you are heading..

JDR is in his first year coaching in Denver. He has taken a mediocre defense and turned it into a top 5. Miller, Doom, Champ.. all good players. A great team will feed off eachother. I think it started with San Diego. When the defense saw the 'comeback', it fueled them. When the offense saw the defense fueled.. it lit them up. Thats why they are having the success they are having. Team Work.

I attest it to good coaching, good players, and the caliber of QB Manning is and the intensity he brings. He elevates the team to a whole new level. That cannot be denied. He did it in Indy as well.

Look at Thomas and Deckers numbers from 2011 to 2012. Thats what a great QB can give an offense.

Tebow's in Denver and playoff wildcard win was a fluke. If I remember correctly, Brady and the Pats came in the next week and whipped the Broncos into oblivion.

So while everyone is talking and drooling over AD.. I for one would have liked to have seen Megatron in the MVP talk. And why not? Guys a beast, has a less than capable QB throwing to him, and YAC were insane. His team isnt in the playoffs.. well as of now.. neither are the Vikings.

Oh BTW.. Manning is rated #1..

1 Peyton Manning, DEN 107.5 1.4 -14.1 12.8 107.7 658 132.3 77.7 82.7

2 Tom Brady, NE 110.8 3.1 -16.3 8.5 106.2 697 122.9 65.1 77.5

3 Matt Ryan, ATL 120.3 12.6 -24.6 5.3 113.6 668 115.5 60.0 76.7

4 Colin Kaepernick, SF 37.2 15.8 -10.9 -2.2 39.9 282 48.1 24.7 76.1

5 Aaron Rodgers, GB 100.5 19.1 -35.5 11.9 95.9 675 105.7 49.7 72.6

6 Robert Griffin III, WSH 79.1 7.9 -19.1 7.2 75.1 562 84.9 38.2 71.1

7 Alex Smith, SF 41.7 3.7 -13.4 2.5 34.4 294 43.3 18.9 70.1

8 Russell Wilson, SEA 75.9 19.9 -21.2 6.0 80.6 545 80.1 34.9 70.0

9 Drew Brees, NO 99.2 -0.1 -18.2 -1.5 79.4 715 98.3 38.9 67.3

10 Eli Manning, NYG 68.9 1.2 -11.9 7.3 65.5 601 78.3 28.4 65.1

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just so that we get all the facts straight, Rodgers is leading the league in QB rating, and acutally has more TDs, fewer picks than Manning, plays in a division with teams that have collectively 10 more wins than the opponents in the AFC west, and but for a close call at the end of the GB-SEA game has the same record as the broncos . . . but somehow no one is giving Rodgers any love . . .

just a few facts to throw into the discussion in this thread . . .

Facts.. lmao

Ok.. here are the facts... per ESPN:

1 Peyton Manning, DEN 107.5 1.4 -14.1 12.8 107.7 658 132.3 77.7 82.7

2 Tom Brady, NE 110.8 3.1 -16.3 8.5 106.2 697 122.9 65.1 77.5

3 Matt Ryan, ATL 120.3 12.6 -24.6 5.3 113.6 668 115.5 60.0 76.7

4 Colin Kaepernick, SF 37.2 15.8 -10.9 -2.2 39.9 282 48.1 24.7 76.1

5 Aaron Rodgers, GB 100.5 19.1 -35.5 11.9 95.9 675 105.7 49.7 72.6

6 Robert Griffin III, WSH 79.1 7.9 -19.1 7.2 75.1 562 84.9 38.2 71.1

7 Alex Smith, SF 41.7 3.7 -13.4 2.5 34.4 294 43.3 18.9 70.1

8 Russell Wilson, SEA 75.9 19.9 -21.2 6.0 80.6 545 80.1 34.9 70.0

9 Drew Brees, NO 99.2 -0.1 -18.2 -1.5 79.4 715 98.3 38.9 67.3

10 Eli Manning, NYG 68.9 1.2 -11.9 7.3 65.5 601 78.3 28.4 65.1

Hows that for facts.

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Facts.. lmao

Ok.. here are the facts... per ESPN:

1 Peyton Manning, DEN 107.5 1.4 -14.1 12.8 107.7 658 132.3 77.7 82.7

2 Tom Brady, NE 110.8 3.1 -16.3 8.5 106.2 697 122.9 65.1 77.5

3 Matt Ryan, ATL 120.3 12.6 -24.6 5.3 113.6 668 115.5 60.0 76.7

4 Colin Kaepernick, SF 37.2 15.8 -10.9 -2.2 39.9 282 48.1 24.7 76.1

5 Aaron Rodgers, GB 100.5 19.1 -35.5 11.9 95.9 675 105.7 49.7 72.6

6 Robert Griffin III, WSH 79.1 7.9 -19.1 7.2 75.1 562 84.9 38.2 71.1

7 Alex Smith, SF 41.7 3.7 -13.4 2.5 34.4 294 43.3 18.9 70.1

8 Russell Wilson, SEA 75.9 19.9 -21.2 6.0 80.6 545 80.1 34.9 70.0

9 Drew Brees, NO 99.2 -0.1 -18.2 -1.5 79.4 715 98.3 38.9 67.3

10 Eli Manning, NYG 68.9 1.2 -11.9 7.3 65.5 601 78.3 28.4 65.1

Hows that for facts.

 

 

Then you should have phrased it more clearly, as in, "Manning leads the league in QBR, that system that ESPN put together that no one really pays any attention to."

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Uh, no I didnt. And no I'm not.. so posters like Gramz, Oldunclemark, ect are not outspoken on this?

 

Who,  ME...??? :?:   :lol:   Yep, I admit, you  pretty much never have to guess what I'm thinking, now do you...???  

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Then you should have phrased it more clearly, as in, "Manning leads the league in QBR, that system that ESPN put together that no one really pays any attention to."

Yeah, the QBR is HORRIBLE.

 

I am not a Manning basher but I don't think he is MVP. If you look at this objectively, it is 3 rookie QBs that have done more for their respective teams than Manning has done for the Broncos.

 

I know people don't like to bring up the prior year but that puts context into the teams.

 

*Last year, the Broncos won the AFC West with Tebow and had the 4th seed. This year, the Broncos won the AFC West with Manning and currently hold the 2nd Seed.

 

*Last year, the Colts went 2-14 (I put this on coaching and I believe they intentionally "Sucked for Luck" but I digress). This year, they are 10-5 and are in the playoffs.

 

*Last year, the Redskins went 5-11. This year, they are 9-6 and if they win, clinch the NFC East.

 

*Last year, the Seahawks went 7-9. This year, they are 10-5 and in the playoff.

 

Now, this isn't discrediting Peyton Manning but you use context to see a players value on the team. Last year, he proved his value to the Colts; this year, he made a good team better. He will more than likely get it because he is Peyton Manning but they would still make the playoffs in the AFC West (the weakest division in the NFL.) I believe that AP should be MVP hands down. Understated fact, the Vikings are 32nd in passing, 3rd in rushing, and hold a 9-6 record. Just saying.

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Yeah, the QBR is HORRIBLE.

 

Supposedly ESPN created it in the spirit of "weighing" stats. For example, an 8-yard completion on 1st-and-10 in a scoreless game in the first quarter is not equal to an 8-yard completion on 3rd-and-6 when you're up by 3 with the ball and 1:00 left. I believe (but am not sure) the QBR system takes all of that into account and assigns "clutch" values to certain plays. I don't know, it all sounds completely convoluted to me.

 

The "traditional" QB ranking system that's been in place since the 70s, though far from perfect, gives a fairly decent picture of how a guy is playing. Not sure why ESPN felt compelled to create their own. But it's been around for a couple of years now and other than ESPN, you can't find it listed anywhere else. There's probably a reason for that. It's like trying to switch us all over to the metric system. The numbers just don't look right.

;)

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Supposedly ESPN created it in the spirit of "weighing" stats. For example, an 8-yard completion on 1st-and-10 in a scoreless game in the first quarter is not equal to an 8-yard completion on 3rd-and-6 when you're up by 3 with the ball and 1:00 left. I believe (but am not sure) the QBR system takes all of that into account and assigns "clutch" values to certain plays. I don't know, it all sounds completely convoluted to me.

 

The "traditional" QB ranking system that's been in place since the 70s, though far from perfect, gives a fairly decent picture of how a guy is playing. Not sure why ESPN felt compelled to create their own. But it's been around for a couple of years now and other than ESPN, you can't find it listed anywhere else. There's probably a reason for that. It's like trying to switch us all over to the metric system. The numbers just don't look right.

;)

I will take the traditional QB rating everyday and 10 times on Sunday. Weighted stats put subjectivity into what a QB does and that totally skews what is done. I mean, you go on forums and people argue that a quarterback is better because of his QBR. I think that Aaron Rodgers is a top 2 QB and the QB rating shows it, but the QBR always put some random person above him every year...lol.

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I will take the traditional QB rating everyday and 10 times on Sunday. Weighted stats put subjectivity into what a QB does and that totally skews what is done. I mean, you go on forums and people argue that a quarterback is better because of his QBR. I think that Aaron Rodgers is a top 2 QB and the QB rating shows it, but the QBR always put some random person above him every year...lol.

 

I recently read that when the NFL devised the system in 1971, Don Smith (who was with the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but apparently was quite a math whiz) built it so that what was considered an excellent QB rating at the time would be 100, and worked backwards from there to make the numbers fit. Back in those days, a QB who completed 55% of his passes for 3,000 yards and 20 TDs was considered close to off-the-charts though. Kind of amazing how the position has evolved like it has. 

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I recently read that when the NFL devised the system in 1971, Don Smith (who was with the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but apparently was quite a math whiz) built it so that what was considered an excellent QB rating at the time would be 100, and worked backwards from there to make the numbers fit. Back in those days, a QB who completed 55% of his passes for 3,000 yards and 20 TDs was considered close to off-the-charts though. Kind of amazing how the position has evolved like it has. 

Considering how rules have changed in favor of the pass, yes, that was off the charts. lol.

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Facts.. lmao

Ok.. here are the facts... per ESPN:

1 Peyton Manning, DEN 107.5 1.4 -14.1 12.8 107.7 658 132.3 77.7 82.7

2 Tom Brady, NE 110.8 3.1 -16.3 8.5 106.2 697 122.9 65.1 77.5

3 Matt Ryan, ATL 120.3 12.6 -24.6 5.3 113.6 668 115.5 60.0 76.7

4 Colin Kaepernick, SF 37.2 15.8 -10.9 -2.2 39.9 282 48.1 24.7 76.1

5 Aaron Rodgers, GB 100.5 19.1 -35.5 11.9 95.9 675 105.7 49.7 72.6

6 Robert Griffin III, WSH 79.1 7.9 -19.1 7.2 75.1 562 84.9 38.2 71.1

7 Alex Smith, SF 41.7 3.7 -13.4 2.5 34.4 294 43.3 18.9 70.1

8 Russell Wilson, SEA 75.9 19.9 -21.2 6.0 80.6 545 80.1 34.9 70.0

9 Drew Brees, NO 99.2 -0.1 -18.2 -1.5 79.4 715 98.3 38.9 67.3

10 Eli Manning, NYG 68.9 1.2 -11.9 7.3 65.5 601 78.3 28.4 65.1

Hows that for facts.

nothing personal, but without any qualifying heading, this look like a bunch of numbers to me . . . what do each of the columns represent?

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PASS, EPA, RUN, EPA, SACK, EPA, PEN, EPA, TOTAL, EPA, ACT, PLAYS, QB, PAR, QB, PAA, TOTAL, QBR

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