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I thought Arians game management was improving


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#41 Superman

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:01 PM

Way different scenario than we are discussing. First off they were already in field goal range. Second, the field goal does not give them the win like you seem to be inferring. Manning went for the win when he knew he had already "locked up" the tie to the best of his abilities. Did you see that kick? Idc if he started 7 yards closer it was not going through the uprights.

Ironically Manning connecting on that deep route was their only real chance to win the game (in hindsight of course) and you are torching him for it basically calling it one of his biggest blunders.


You missed my point. Entirely.

First of all, I am NOT torching Manning for that play. I didn't call it one of his biggest blunders. More on that in a minute.

Secondly, I'm not inferring that the field goal on that play would give the team the win. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth.

To clarify, my post was in response to NCF saying that Luck shouldn't have been looking deep. Luck is a rookie, and is sometimes going to make the wrong decision, especially in a rushed situation, especially in the middle of a play. And, by way of comparison, I mentioned Manning throwing deep instead of short in a similar clock-sensitive situation, where having a closer field goal would have helped tremendously. Manning was an established veteran, already one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL, and had seen way more close game situations than Luck has to this point. It's hard for me to be critical of any quarterback in that situation, much less a rookie.

My initial point in this thread was to say that Arians mishandled the end of half situation, particularly his use of timeouts. Not to highlights Luck's failures on that possession. I think Luck did a pretty good job of getting ball past midfield, and the play calling and clock management from that point doomed the drive. I don't have a problem with Luck throwing deep, and I didn't have a problem with Manning doing the same in 2005. I've never called it a mistake by Manning, and I certainly haven't called it one of his biggest blunders.

All I'm saying is that Arians didn't handle the clock well.
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#42 Superman

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:04 PM

I hear ya....however (and I hate to pull to 'ol Madden card) ...any dipstick with an X-Box and a copy of Madden Football could manage the clock better than that.

It's pretty bad when a dummy like me is wailing his arms yelling "CALL A TIMEOUT, WTH!!!"

I mean, I'm sitting there on my couch trying to push the dang select button to call a timeout.


My seven year old daughter left the room on that possession because "Daddy is coaching too much."
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#43 John Dee

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:05 PM

I hear ya....however (and I hate to pull to 'ol Madden card) ...any dipstick with an X-Box and a copy of Madden Football could manage the clock better than that.

It's pretty bad when a dummy like me is wailing his arms yelling "CALL A TIMEOUT, WTH!!!"

I mean, I'm sitting there on my couch trying to push the dang select button to call a timeout.



I put it on the QB. plain and simple. Peyton was the Big Cheese and everyone knew it. Luck is in the process of becoming the man.

To me this was a mistake... but did it cost Indy the game? NE would have whipped our *'s regardless of circumstances.

I honestly think the clock management is a big deal about nothing.....

Big Game, for a young team.... we got clowned...

Indy will see NE again.
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#44 Superman

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:19 PM

I put it on the QB. plain and simple. Peyton was the Big Cheese and everyone knew it. Luck is in the process of becoming the man.

To me this was a mistake... but did it cost Indy the game? NE would have whipped our *'s regardless of circumstances.

I honestly think the clock management is a big deal about nothing.....

Big Game, for a young team.... we got clowned...

Indy will see NE again.


I posted this thread during halftime. As it turned out, we got thoroughly whipped, but that possession could have been pivotal. Score three points, or possibly even tie the game, and things could have been different.

Regardless, it's bigger than one game. After Jim Caldwell called that ridiculous timeout against the Jets in 2010 (I don't believe the timeout cost us the game, but it was still a bad decision), he and Bill Polian defended it. They claimed to believe that it was the right decision to make; Polian even tried to say that the timeout was called because we had the wrong defensive personnel on the field. That bothered me more than the timeout, because I would think the coach and crew would learn from their mistakes, not double down on them.

Arians' game management has improved in recent weeks, so I was surprised to see him regress. I hope he handles this situation better the next time it comes up.
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#45 BleedingBlue

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:41 PM

Arians was throwing deep because he was sending a message to the pats, that we will go over top of you with our speed. This of course opens up running opportunities. The clock management WAS atrocious.

off clock management, lol another thing we had taken for granted.
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#46 John Dee

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

I posted this thread during halftime. As it turned out, we got thoroughly whipped, but that possession could have been pivotal. Score three points, or possibly even tie the game, and things could have been different.

Regardless, it's bigger than one game. After Jim Caldwell called that ridiculous timeout against the Jets in 2010 (I don't believe the timeout cost us the game, but it was still a bad decision), he and Bill Polian defended it. They claimed to believe that it was the right decision to make; Polian even tried to say that the timeout was called because we had the wrong defensive personnel on the field. That bothered me more than the timeout, because I would think the coach and crew would learn from their mistakes, not double down on them.

Arians' game management has improved in recent weeks, so I was surprised to see him regress. I hope he handles this situation better the next time it comes up.


Of course the Caldwell TO was and EPIC fail... I will never get that one.

JC took over a Cadillac, but was just totally outmatched. He had no business coaching an NFL team;

Arians... I feel he is HC material. or was. He is older. But he is 5-2 with this team. Clock management is the QB's responsibility. Arians has this team ready to play week in week out.

That is what matters.
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#47 John Dee

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

Arians was throwing deep because he was sending a message to the pats, that we will go over top of you with our speed. This of course opens up running opportunities. The clock management WAS atrocious.

off clock management, lol another thing we had taken for granted.


Would have been interesting had Indy held on to the ball early...
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#48 Superman

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:05 PM

Of course the Caldwell TO was and EPIC fail... I will never get that one.

JC took over a Cadillac, but was just totally outmatched. He had no business coaching an NFL team;

Arians... I feel he is HC material. or was. He is older. But he is 5-2 with this team. Clock management is the QB's responsibility. Arians has this team ready to play week in week out.

That is what matters.


I disagree that clock management is the quarterback's responsibility, especially when the quarterback is a rookie. The head coach can call a timeout at any point in the game, and many of them do so.
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#49 ruksak

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:13 PM

My seven year old daughter left the room on that possession because "Daddy is coaching too much."


My daughters favorite thing to say when I'm watching football...."Who are you talking to?"

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#50 ruksak

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:14 PM

Of course the Caldwell TO was and EPIC fail... I will never get that one.

JC took over a Cadillac, but was just totally outmatched. He had no business coaching an NFL team;

Arians... I feel he is HC material. or was. He is older. But he is 5-2 with this team. Clock management is the QB's responsibility. Arians has this team ready to play week in week out.

That is what matters.


Yeaaaaahh...I dunno.

Key end of the half drive after coughing up 14 gimmie points....rookie QB....coach should've pushed select. ...err ummm called a timeout.

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#51 Gavin

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:19 PM

Arians is far from head coach material, pour use of timeouts now on more then one occasion, Play Calling that simply could have been better (at times) by an average joe off the street, he is a prisoner of the moment to much in my opinion, thats not to say he hasnt done good for us, he has but, if he cant handle timeouts properly on now multiple occasions and his play calling at time is baffling then I fail to see how he is head coach material, good QB Coach, great person, not a good HC or O coordinator

#52 colts8718

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:39 PM

He was horrible today. I didn't expect us to win going into this game but Arians certainly didn't do us any favors with his poor game management and play calling. The constant calls for deep routes even when the Pats were blitzing every play is what p****ed me off the most. *ic gameplan with little adjustments on offense or defense. There was no reason for this game to get out of hand the way it did, at all

Yes i did not understand going deep most of the time Donald Brown is perfect for those short passes this would have slowed down the Pats.

#53 Coffeedrinker

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

I just realized from watching the highlight tape that Lucks interception to Aqib Talib happened on 2nd down and 1 yard! What in the world were we doing throwing a deep bomb on that play? Why was that play called? I don't think this was one of our best play calling games. I also agree with Superman about the clock management on that one drive. Not good at all.


A deep bomb on 2nd and 1 yard? You gotta be kidding me! You're helping the kid to become too trigger happy and somewhat careless with his throws when you are neglecting to run the ball on obvious running situations. The game wasn't out of hand at the point. Matter of fact, that throw is one of the things that turned the tide.

I don't know your posts well enough to tell if this is sarcasm. If it is disregard the following statement.

2nd and 1 is a great time to go deep because if you miss it then you still have a fairly good chance at converting the third down. I don't have the stats but I'd guess that a deep pass(longer than 20 yards) on 2nd and 1 probably happens more than any other down and distance with the exception of 1 & 10 after a TO between the opponents 20-35 yard line.

#54 krunk

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:36 PM

I don't know your posts well enough to tell if this is sarcasm. If it is disregard the following statement.

2nd and 1 is a great time to go deep because if you miss it then you still have a fairly good chance at converting the third down. I don't have the stats but I'd guess that a deep pass(longer than 20 yards) on 2nd and 1 probably happens more than any other down and distance with the exception of 1 & 10 after a TO between the opponents 20-35 yard line.



You don't have the stats so you're not really sure. I think if you checked those stats you would find teams are more likely to run when there is 1 yard to go to pick up a first down. Even without looking at stats it's just common sense. Sure you can take a shot there because you'll have another attempt on third down. However, that wasn't the purpose of my post. The main reason for the post was to point out the lack of balance we had in the run to pass ratio. We left the running game too early even at points where we were not even losing the game. I love the deep pass, but I think you are more effective with it when you have a good mix in the running game.

We pass more than just about any other team in the league, but the more balanced teams are scoring more than our Colts.

#55 Coffeedrinker

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:08 PM

You don't have the stats so you're not really sure.

Nope don't know for sure, just years (more than I care to admit) of observation.

I think if you checked those stats you would find teams are more likely to run when there is 1 yard to go to pick up a first down.

Ahh see, now you are trying to change it. I am talking specifically 2nd and 1.

Even without looking at stats it's just common sense.

You're right it's common sense to try the deep ball there because you have another attempt to pick up the yard on third down.

Sure you can take a shot there because you'll have another attempt on third down.

Oh, I see you agree.

However, that wasn't the purpose of my post. The main reason for the post was to point out the lack of balance we had in the run to pass ratio. We left the running game too early even at points where we were not even losing the game. I love the deep pass, but I think you are more effective with it when you have a good mix in the running game.

Well at that point in the game the Colts had 11 runs and 11 passes, the interception was the 12th pass. How much more balanced could they be?

We pass more than just about any other team in the league, but the more balanced teams are scoring more than our Colts.

And more balanced teams are scoring less than the Colts.

#56 BLOODontheTRACKS

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:15 PM

Sounds like some are coming around about Arians, Nice guy I like him but should be outlawed from calling plays on offense and coaching decisions, QB Coach thats all he is


i don't always like arians play calling..mainly his ignoring of the short passing game...but you're a little extreme.

#57 Superman

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:14 AM

You don't have the stats so you're not really sure. I think if you checked those stats you would find teams are more likely to run when there is 1 yard to go to pick up a first down. Even without looking at stats it's just common sense. Sure you can take a shot there because you'll have another attempt on third down. However, that wasn't the purpose of my post. The main reason for the post was to point out the lack of balance we had in the run to pass ratio. We left the running game too early even at points where we were not even losing the game. I love the deep pass, but I think you are more effective with it when you have a good mix in the running game.

We pass more than just about any other team in the league, but the more balanced teams are scoring more than our Colts.


I meant to respond to that comment as well. Second and short is a down/distance situation where a lot of teams will try for a big play, specifically because they still have third and short to follow up on. You'll see a lot of play action on second and short. This is not an indication that our play calling wasn't balanced.

To your point, however, the third possession of the game, we went three and out. Three pass plays, three incompletions. Then we punted, false start, punted again, and gave up a return for a touchdown. To that point, we had been very effective running the football. Four carries, 31 yards on the first drive (including a 20 yarder by Ballard); five carries, 26 yards on the second drive. We should have stayed patient and continued to emphasize the run on that third possession. Our offense sputtered first, and the momentum went completely to the Patriots.
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#58 Gavin

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:27 AM

i don't always like arians play calling..mainly his ignoring of the short passing game...but you're a little extreme.

Yeah outlawed was a strong word I admit, But still his play calling and coaching decisions just say pretty loudly that he is not the right man for the job as an O Coordinator or Head Coach, nice guy from everything I hear about him and from him when interviewed, just does poor job of using the talent that he has around him, Thats not to say he hasn't used all our players wrong all the time it just means I have been left scratching my head one to many times with certain play calls and use of timeouts,

#59 HireBruceArians

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:43 AM

Arians was throwing deep because he was sending a message to the pats, that we will go over top of you with our speed. This of course opens up running opportunities.


Arians compulsively calls deep routes every opportunity he gets, regardless of the opponent, the down or the distance. He wasn't sending a message; he was just being Bruce. He got outcoached because the Pats knew he was going to keep looking for the homerun against their perceived weak secondary. He played right into their hands, and even worse, didn't adjust after he saw they were getting pressure with their blitz. I like Arians, but his arrogance/stubbornness is what makes him a poor coordinator at times.

#60 krunk

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:20 AM

Nope don't know for sure, just years (more than I care to admit) of observation.

Ahh see, now you are trying to change it. I am talking specifically 2nd and 1.

You're right it's common sense to try the deep ball there because you have another attempt to pick up the yard on third down.

Oh, I see you agree.

Well at that point in the game the Colts had 11 runs and 11 passes, the interception was the 12th pass. How much more balanced could they be?

And more balanced teams are scoring less than the Colts.



We score about 20 points a game. Which "More balanced" team are you speaking of that is scoring less than us? Get real

#61 krunk

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:24 AM

We score about 20 points a game. Which "More balanced" team are you speaking of that is scoring less than us? Get real

I meant to respond to that comment as well. Second and short is a down/distance situation where a lot of teams will try for a big play, specifically because they still have third and short to follow up on. You'll see a lot of play action on second and short. This is not an indication that our play calling wasn't balanced.

To your point, however, the third possession of the game, we went three and out. Three pass plays, three incompletions. Then we punted, false start, punted again, and gave up a return for a touchdown. To that point, we had been very effective running the football. Four carries, 31 yards on the first drive (including a 20 yarder by Ballard); five carries, 26 yards on the second drive. We should have stayed patient and continued to emphasize the run on that third possession. Our offense sputtered first, and the momentum went completely to the Patriots.



They may try for a big play, but I do not think you can find a stat that says it is more common for a team to throw a bomb on 2nd and 1 then running on 2nd and 1 Superman. It may be a down where it may be safe to try something like that. Sure I can see where you can do that, but my major point was to say we were passing too much, when the running game was working. I think we should have continued to run. One of Arians goals going into the game was to keep Brady off of the field.

#62 krunk

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:28 AM

Nope don't know for sure, just years (more than I care to admit) of observation.

Ahh see, now you are trying to change it. I am talking specifically 2nd and 1.

You're right it's common sense to try the deep ball there because you have another attempt to pick up the yard on third down.

Oh, I see you agree.

Well at that point in the game the Colts had 11 runs and 11 passes, the interception was the 12th pass. How much more balanced could they be?

And more balanced teams are scoring less than the Colts.



You're trying to create a point about tendencies on 2nd and 1 for most teams with nothing to back it up.

#63 Superman

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:49 PM

They may try for a big play, but I do not think you can find a stat that says it is more common for a team to throw a bomb on 2nd and 1 then running on 2nd and 1 Superman. It may be a down where it may be safe to try something like that. Sure I can see where you can do that, but my major point was to say we were passing too much, when the running game was working. I think we should have continued to run. One of Arians goals going into the game was to keep Brady off of the field.


I haven't gone in search of that stat, and it doesn't seem like you've gone in search of a stat to suggest that teams don't call deep plays on second and short. I'm just talking about my personal observation, and the logic behind the decision. I think it's common to throw on second and short. Not saying it happens a majority of the time, or every time, just that it happens with regularity.

I'll also note that the pass that was intercepted on second and short wasn't a "bomb," it was just a deeper throw. To me, a "bomb" or a deep pass is 40+ yards down the field. That pass was thrown about 30 yards, more of an intermediate throw. I fault the quarterback for making a risky throw, but I also acknowledge that he was under pressure, and I even think his arm got hit as he threw it. It was still a gunslinger moment, and it went badly. But I don't fault the play call. That kind of pass play in that situation is common, and I think it's smart. We had already converted second and short and third and short on the ground. Trying for a big play there was good play calling, if you ask me.

I'll also reiterate that our offense had been as balanced as any offense could possibly be to that point. The previous drive we should have been more judicious, but overall, the run game had been a big part of the offense. We ran on first down, successfully. I disagree with your criticism of that play call, for all of those reasons. There have been plenty of occasions where I thought we should have run more. That wasn't one of them.
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#64 Coffeedrinker

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:02 PM

We score about 20 points a game. Which "More balanced" team are you speaking of that is scoring less than us? Get real

Well that Colts run the ball 40% of the time (279 runs in 691 plays) and score 21 points per game. BTW 40% runs is about the league average.

The Seahawks run the ball 56% of the time and score 19.8ppg

The Ram runs the ball 44% of the time and score 17.4 ppg

On the flip side, the Broncos run the ball 41% of the time and score 30 Ppg

The Saints run the ball 34% of the time and score 28.7.

The Pats about 43% of the time.

It has less to do with balance and more to do with playing to your strengths, game planning against the defense and making game time adjustments.





Jets run the ball 47% of the time and score 20.2 points per game

You're trying to create a point about tendencies on 2nd and 1 for most teams with nothing to back it up.

If you say so. I guess I have observed something over the years that they don't keep stats for nor can you find on the internet. So sue me. It does not make it any less true.

#65 Brad Nichter

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:10 AM

I think we all have to realize that Arians has a lot on his plate. He is the interim head coach, and there will be some mistakes but still we are 6-4, a lot better than last year wouldn't you say?

#66 Superman

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:02 PM

I think we all have to realize that Arians has a lot on his plate. He is the interim head coach, and there will be some mistakes but still we are 6-4, a lot better than last year wouldn't you say?


I don't think any of that excuses him from being held accountable for his game management. More than anything else, I hope that he handles this better the next time. And that's why I brought it up in the first place, because I had hoped that he was already prepared to handle this kind of situation.
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#67 Brad Nichter

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:26 AM

I don't think any of that excuses him from being held accountable for his game management. More than anything else, I hope that he handles this better the next time. And that's why I brought it up in the first place, because I had hoped that he was already prepared to handle this kind of situation.


No one is totally prepared to take over with any position, especially as the head coach. If he head coached somewhere prior then I would expect more out of him, but you have to appreciate what he has done so far. He's doing a heck of a job compared to Caldwell imo.

#68 Gavin

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:44 AM

No one is totally prepared to take over with any position, especially as the head coach. If he head coached somewhere prior then I would expect more out of him, but you have to appreciate what he has done so far. He's doing a heck of a job compared to Caldwell imo.

Not actually the case in my opinion, Under Caldwell we did go 14-2 and went to the SuperBowl(Polian made the call to sit our starters I believe those 2 losses), He did finish with a 28 and 24 record 14 of those losses came with the trio of an old Collins, an inexperienced Painter and a decent backup Orlovsky. I wasn't a fan of Caldwell but I sure am not a fan of Arians and thats with only 8 wins right now (yes I know we are having a much better then expected season). I didn't agree with Caldwell managed sometimes but that can certainly be said about Arians seemingly on almost a game by game basis but we are still 8-4 so he should get some credit

#69 Brad Nichter

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:48 AM

Not actually the case in my opinion, Under Caldwell we did go 14-2 and went to the SuperBowl(Polian made the call to sit our starters I believe those 2 losses), He did finish with a 28 and 24 record 14 of those losses came with the trio of an old Collins, an inexperienced Painter and a decent backup Orlovsky. I wasn't a fan of Caldwell but I sure am not a fan of Arians and thats with only 8 wins right now (yes I know we are having a much better then expected season). I didn't agree with Caldwell managed sometimes but that can certainly be said about Arians seemingly on almost a game by game basis but we are still 8-4 so he should get some credit


And when did that happen? Right after Dungy left. Caldwell was winning off of Dungy's success not his own. Caldwell never turned a team around, just led a great team on a obvious path led by Peyton/Tony.

#70 Gavin

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:06 AM

And when did that happen? Right after Dungy left. Caldwell was winning off of Dungy's success not his own. Caldwell never turned a team around, just led a great team on a obvious path led by Peyton/Tony.

and he was still the head coach of a team that went 14-2 with a poor defense(outside of Freeney and Mathis) that Dungy constructed giving up 22.5 ppg and 21st yards allowed

#71 Superman

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:03 PM

No one is totally prepared to take over with any position, especially as the head coach. If he head coached somewhere prior then I would expect more out of him, but you have to appreciate what he has done so far. He's doing a heck of a job compared to Caldwell imo.


I'm not trying to run him out of town. I just want to see him handle the clock better. I know his attention is diverted, since he's calling the plays (this is one of the reasons I prefer to not have the head coach calling the plays, although these circumstances are extenuating, obviously), but he really bungled this situation.

By the way, this isn't exactly advanced clock management we're talking about. It's pretty elementary, Clock Management 101, if you ask me.
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#72 PrincetonTiger

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:55 PM

wow
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#73 FireJimCaldwell

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:10 PM

By the way, this isn't exactly advanced clock management we're talking about. It's pretty elementary, Clock Management 101, if you ask me.

Some want to say he's a rookie head coach and an rookie interim head coach at that, but I'm not buying it. He's been a part of a football staff for 37 years so it's not like its picking some random accountant or construction worker out of the crowd to handle clock management decisions.

This little visit to wiki did help me understand a quote from a book I have.

"During one trip to Indianapolis, Manning met with the Colts QB Coach Bruce Arians, who asked Manning about some pass coverages. "We have a pretty sophisticated offense at Tennessee," Manning said, politely. Arians continued to ask If Manning had seen this coverage or that coverage. Manning got frustrated. Of course, he had seen those pass coverages.

"No offense,, coach, but youren't talking to Freddie Kitchens," Manning said, "I've seen pass coverages before."

Freddie Kitchens was the Alabama QB from 95-97. Bruce Arians was the Alabama offensive coordinator in 1997. Kitchen has been the tight end coach for the Arizona Cardinals since 2007.



#74 Tsarquise

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

Some want to say he's a rookie head coach and an rookie interim head coach at that, but I'm not buying it. He's been a part of a football staff for 37 years so it's not like its picking some random accountant or construction worker out of the crowd to handle clock management decisions.

This little visit to wiki did help me understand a quote from a book I have.


So this is when Manning was a rookie?

#75 FireJimCaldwell

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:20 PM

So this is when Manning was a rookie?


The quote? Was right after he was drafted from a book written by a Knoxville sportswriter. . The comment on Arians having 37 years of coaching football of various levels is current.

#76 Tsarquise

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

Yeah I meant the quote. That's interesting. I wonder how he views Manning.

#77 Brad Nichter

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:27 PM

Well you guys have to remember Chuck is the head coach. We had no better option then to have Arians take over for the time being and after 9 wins from a disastrous season is great.

#78 Superman

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:46 PM

Well you guys have to remember Chuck is the head coach. We had no better option then to have Arians take over for the time being and after 9 wins from a disastrous season is great.


All that is true. I appreciate everything Arians has done. Our record is a great tribute to him.

That doesn't mean he's above reproach.
LET'S HUNT






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