Wow.... Andrew Luck draft rights trade

[21isSuperman]

I feel bad for Cleveland because they've been bad for as long as I can remember, but I'm still glad we didn't send the pick away. You could go back and forth all day about whether or not we should have traded the pick and kept Peyton or if what we did was the better choice. You'll never come up with an answer. I'm glad the FO did what they did and I'm certainly glad Luck is a Colt.

[shakedownstreet]

i wouldn't trade luck for anything, even with the foresight of manning returning to greatness

[Dustin]

Anyone have a link to this article? I can't seem to find it.

[Playoffs2013]

Anyone have a link to this article? I can't seem to find it.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/10spot-12week11/andrew-luck-way-tom-brady-future-adam-schefter-10-spot

[Andy]

And the ghost of Al Davis still haunts the Raiders...

[Warhorse]

To put a twist on a famous Star Trek quote.....

"The abilities of the one........outweigh the abilities of the many".

[Ohio Colt]

It was Mike Holmgren, I bet. News is Holmgren did call Irsay about it, it was in the Cleveland Plain Dealer, not for long.

http://www.cleveland...veland_b_1.html

Just dont know the details other than the fact that it was for trading Luck.

Bingo. This was my first thought when I saw this. It was Cleveland, 99.9%

[ColtStrong]

I've thought about it, and I'm lost. Not a surprise in my world. I meant Edgerrin James. What did I miss? Help me ColtStrong.

The running back on that magazine cover is ricky williams.

[MSColtsFan]

The running back on that magazine cover is ricky williams.

Yes, I know. And that picture reminds me of how great it was to draft Edge. I don't need to explain this again in this thread right? I really thought it was sort of an obvious connection to how well the Colts ended up doing in that draft...

[Indyboy757]

Well I was thinking trade in the beginning of last year before we had the #1 pick and had we known PM could play and be healthy throuht a whole season most of us would have been willing to trade as well, but when I did my homework and saw Lucks #s in college and watched a few games I said hey this guy is really good all in all I know we did the right thing and hey so did PM. But with what we are seeing so far no amount of trades would have been worth Mr. Luck....

[braveheartcolt]

Contrary to what some might think, I posted on here a while back that we shoud trade the first pick and use to completely rebuild the defense. But when it became clear that Peyton's injury and his recovery was 'uncertain' at the time his option was due, I recoiled from that view and supported the Luck pick 100%. It would have been cool to have Peyton see out his days here, but with his cap hit, and the state of our roster, it probably was a 'no-brainer' for Irsay to make. Gutting the coaching staff and ditching the Polian cartel was obviously a tremendous move as well.

Onwards and upwards....

[JoKeR]

Based on the article that was posted is that they didn't even bother getting back to whatever team made the offer. To me that is a lack of due diligence even if your mind is 100% made up. I'm sure Grigson/Irsay have unlimited minutes. Make an absurd offer that no team should dare touch. You never know.

In my opinion Irsay's mind was made up in August when he was erroneously lead to believe that Manning wouldn't/shouldn't play again.

There isn't a finite answer to the game of football.

There are many routes to any specific destination. Many work.

I don't see how they didn't ponder this just because they didn't call back.

When said team made the " blank check offer" the Colts already knew the buyers offer, no reason to call back unless they wanted to make the trade.

[JoKeR]

I feel bad for Cleveland because they've been bad for as long as I can remember, but I'm still glad we didn't send the pick away. You could go back and forth all day about whether or not we should have traded the pick and kept Peyton or if what we did was the better choice. You'll never come up with an answer. I'm glad the FO did what they did and I'm certainly glad Luck is a Colt.

If it was Cleveland I can see why the Colts didn't call back, the Colts wanted a franchise QB and Cleveland's picks couldn't snag 1. Plus drafting Luck was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I don't see how they didn't ponder this just because they didn't call back.

When said team made the " blank check offer" the Colts already knew the buyers offer, no reason to call back unless they wanted to make the trade.

I don't believe it was a blank check/carte blance, just simply "name your offer", and there are still no guarantees the team accepts of Irsay/Grigson, say we want your top 3 picks for the next 6 years.

They never named their offer. As I said in another post, Irsay had his mind made up in the early fall, August/September, and I doubt they even put much time in looking at RG3 after he came on the scene. Just a gut feeling.

[Malakai432]

No, it's true. They offered the entire NHL, rights to the Twilight franchise and the ingredients for McDonalds secret sauce (mayonnaise and ketchup). Irsay also wanted Marshall Manning in the trade, and that was the deal breaker.

Hey, you don't see anyone denying that report either, right?

Brilliant, I also heard they threw in a 60 year old Albert Haynesworth and a limited edition signed DVD copy of The Notebook!!!!

Why would they pass all this stuff up!!!

[21isSuperman]

If it was Cleveland I can see why the Colts didn't call back, the Colts wanted a franchise QB and Cleveland's picks couldn't snag 1. Plus drafting Luck was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

You said it. Weeden is a good QB, in my opinion, but his age makes him a fit for a team that has lots of talent and is in "win now" mode. I saw some mocks that had him going to KC and I think he would have been a good fit there.

[TMPHBITEU]

You said it. Weeden is a good QB, in my opinion, but his age makes him a fit for a team that has lots of talent and is in "win now" mode. I saw some mocks that had him going to KC and I think he would have been a good fit there.

Wait. So the Chiefs are in win-now mode?

[21isSuperman]

Wait. So the Chiefs are in win-now mode?

well...

[SteelCityColt]

Maybe they've started their suck for Smith campaign already.

[JoKeR]

I don't believe it was a blank check/carte blance, just simply "name your offer", and there are still no guarantees the team accepts of Irsay/Grigson, say we want your top 3 picks for the next 6 years.

They never named their offer. As I said in another post, Irsay had his mind made up in the early fall, August/September, and I doubt they even put much time in looking at RG3 after he came on the scene. Just a gut feeling.

I see, wasnt a blank check but was it Cleveland or any team that could secure a franchise QB? Now if it was Washington then I think Grigson should've at least called.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I see, wasnt a blank check but was it Cleveland or any team that could secure a franchise QB? Now if it was Washington then I think Grigson should've at least called.

They seem to be growing on trees.

Even if it was Cleveland with the 4 & 23 picks, and a parcel of others like this article makes it seem. there are/were other possibilities.

If it were Washington, I think they would have made that call before moving up with Cleveland to start with. It might have been some other mystery team. It would be nice if Scheffter would say who it was, but I doubt that happens.

[GoColts8818]

I just think the Colts had zero interest in trading the pick no matter the offer. They look like they felt like Luck was a sure thing and you just don't see that in the draft. Even the most critical of draft experts agreed with that view point about Luck. When you have a chance to get a player that you are that sold on at QB you just don't pass on it.

I know the argument is WOW that would have been a lot of picks but you know what there is no promise that the Colts would have turned those picks into draft gold like the Cowboys did with the Vikings picks. The Pats have been billed as the kings of the NFL draft because of all the trading they do to get picks but honestly if you look at most of those picks there have been a lot of misses especially on defense. A lot of picks is only worth something if you turn them into something.

So I would disagree with the idea that the Colts didn't do their due diligence. I think they did and made the decision they were drafting Luck and moved forward from there and were not interested in listening to trade offers thus that's why they didn't respond to teams offering for the top overall pick. Also based on the time table that is said in this story I think this offers came in AFTER the Manning decision had been made. The Colts were pretty much married to RG3 or Luck at that point. Yes there were other QBs in this draft that they could have gotten but none of them were viewed as nearly as locks as those two players were and I think the Colts felt like if they were taking a QB they were taking the best one you can get your hands. People can see the logic in replacing Manning with Luck or RG3 it would have been a much harder sell to the fans to tell them you were replacing him with Weedon, Tannenhill, or Wilson.

[dw49]

Based on the article that was posted is that they didn't even bother getting back to whatever team made the offer. To me that is a lack of due diligence even if your mind is 100% made up. I'm sure Grigson/Irsay have unlimited minutes. Make an absurd offer that no team should dare touch. You never know.

In my opinion Irsay's mind was made up in August when he was erroneously lead to believe that Manning wouldn't/shouldn't play again.

There isn't a finite answer to the game of football.

There are many routes to any specific destination. Many work.

I'm sure Jim Irsay would love to trade Luck's rights and watch in agony for the next 15 years. Didn't he go through that once with some guy named Elway ? What was Elway worth ? Maybe 7-8 #1's ? Also what is a teams whole draft really worth ? Let's look at the point chart..

The number 1 pick is worth 3000 points.

Let's say the team offering their whole draft sits at the no 14 spot.

Below are the values of picks 1-7

1) 1100

2) 440

3) 200

4) 74

5) 35

6) 22

7) 9

That's 1880 points. Figure into that the fact that Luck is available at 1.1. The 3000 point figure goes tgo God knows what. So how many future # 1 picks would this team have include to make this deal ? Don't forget that future number ones are devalued and the team that gets the franchise QB should not be figured to draft high in subsequent drafts.

IMO , there is just no way it makes sense to trade the rights to what you believe to be a future franchise QB. It's so easy to dust off 4-5 number 1 picks. Look what the Colts did from say 2006 to 2010. Addai , Gonzales , Ugoh (future 1) , Brown and Hughes. Bottom line is it only makes sense if you are aleady commited at QB and pretty much have to trade the pick.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I'm sure Jim Irsay would love to trade Luck's rights and watch in agony for the next 15 years. Didn't he go through that once with some guy named Elway ? What was Elway worth ? Maybe 7-8 #1's ? Also what is a teams whole draft really worth ? Let's look at the point chart..

The number 1 pick is worth 3000 points.

Let's say the team offering their whole draft sits at the no 14 spot.

Below are the values of picks 1-7

1) 1100

2) 440

3) 200

4) 74

5) 35

6) 22

7) 9

That's 1880 points. Figure into that the fact that Luck is available at 1.1. The 3000 point figure goes tgo God knows what. So how many future # 1 picks would this team have include to make this deal ? Don't forget that future number ones are devalued and the team that gets the franchise QB should not be figured to draft high in subsequent drafts.

IMO , there is just no way it makes sense to trade the rights to what you believe to be a future franchise QB. It's so easy to dust off 4-5 number 1 picks. Look what the Colts did from say 2006 to 2010. Addai , Gonzales , Ugoh (future 1) , Brown and Hughes. Bottom line is it only makes sense if you are aleady commited at QB and pretty much have to trade the pick.

None of that changes one thing I have said.

The selection was made before the previous Head Coach, GM & President were fired and before the new GM and Head Coach were hired. The only thing that would have stopped that would be winning enough games to make it too costly to move up.

[jskinnz]

I'm sure Jim Irsay would love to trade Luck's rights and watch in agony for the next 15 years. Didn't he go through that once with some guy named Elway ? What was Elway worth ? Maybe 7-8 #1's ? Also what is a teams whole draft really worth ? Let's look at the point chart..

The number 1 pick is worth 3000 points.

Let's say the team offering their whole draft sits at the no 14 spot.

Below are the values of picks 1-7

1) 1100

2) 440

3) 200

4) 74

5) 35

6) 22

7) 9

That's 1880 points. Figure into that the fact that Luck is available at 1.1. The 3000 point figure goes tgo God knows what. So how many future # 1 picks would this team have include to make this deal ? Don't forget that future number ones are devalued and the team that gets the franchise QB should not be figured to draft high in subsequent drafts.

IMO , there is just no way it makes sense to trade the rights to what you believe to be a future franchise QB. It's so easy to dust off 4-5 number 1 picks. Look what the Colts did from say 2006 to 2010. Addai , Gonzales , Ugoh (future 1) , Brown and Hughes. Bottom line is it only makes sense if you are aleady commited at QB and pretty much have to trade the pick.

The value of a true franchise level QB cannot be overstated. As you point out, it would be virtually impossible to get equal value in return.

[dw49]

None of that changes one thing I have said.

The selection was made before the previous Head Coach, GM & President were fired and before the new GM and Head Coach were hired. The only thing that would have stopped that would be winning enough games to make it too costly to move up.

What "selection" are you talking about ? Also don't understand what you are talking about "stopping " If you're talking about Elway and are trying to say that didn't torture Irsay for years , I would disagree. My point is if the Colts believed Luck is in the Elway - Manning class , you can't and aren't going to get equal value in a trade. How many teams competed for a SB maybe 12 out of 14 years as the Colts did behind Manning ? Maybe the Pats are the closest to that ? They had Brady. Are you young enough to remember John Elway in his prime ? Bottom line is Irsay and Grigson knew that it was a waste of time discussing trades for the rights to Luck as the value of a great QB for 12-14 years is off the charts. They did no one a disservice by not bothering with it. I gave the above examples to show what 5 number 1's are sometimes worth. Also a team's entire draft isn't worth anywhere near what some might think.

[dw49]

The value of a true franchise level QB cannot be overstated. As you point out, it would be virtually impossible to get equal value in return.

Not when there are so few sure things in a draft. Look at what the jags got by moving up to #5 in this years draft. Blackman will never be a great WR in this league. After all the scouting and testing , he cannot seperate from NFL DB's. Look at the picks Detriot just zeroed out on in the top 5 for that 5-6 year period. When you have a chance to draft an Andrew Luck , you just do it and don't look back.

[FireJimCaldwell]

What "selection" are you talking about ? Also don't understand what you are talking about "stopping " If you're talking about Elway and are trying to say that didn't torture Irsay for years , I would disagree. My point is if the Colts believed Luck is in the Elway - Manning class , you can't and aren't going to get equal value in a trade. How many teams competed for a SB maybe 12 out of 14 years as the Colts did behind Manning ? Maybe the Pats are the closest to that ? They had Brady. Are you young enough to remember John Elway in his prime ? Bottom line is Irsay and Grigson knew that it was a waste of time discussing trades for the rights to Luck as the value of a great QB for 12-14 years is off the charts. They did no one a disservice by not bothering with it. I gave the above examples to show what 5 number 1's are sometimes worth. Also a team's entire draft isn't worth anywhere near what some might think.

The selection is Andrew Luck, by Jim Irsay.

The stopping I am talking about, is that the team would have had to win enough games for Irsay not to mortgage the future by trading up for Luck. Thoughts/discussion of Elway/Bob Irsay haven't crossed my mind until typing this sentence.

The value of a whole teams draft is irrelevant to me.

[Superman]

Contrary to what some might think, I posted on here a while back that we shoud trade the first pick and use to completely rebuild the defense. But when it became clear that Peyton's injury and his recovery was 'uncertain' at the time his option was due, I recoiled from that view and supported the Luck pick 100%. It would have been cool to have Peyton see out his days here, but with his cap hit, and the state of our roster, it probably was a 'no-brainer' for Irsay to make. Gutting the coaching staff and ditching the Polian cartel was obviously a tremendous move as well.

Onwards and upwards....

I think it was anything but a no-brainer for Irsay. I think it's probably the most difficult personnel decision he's ever been involved with. That's not to say he wasn't convinced it was right, or that he's not at peace with it. But I seriously doubt he took it lightly or made his mind up easily.

[Superman]

I feel bad for Cleveland because they've been bad for as long as I can remember, but I'm still glad we didn't send the pick away. You could go back and forth all day about whether or not we should have traded the pick and kept Peyton or if what we did was the better choice. You'll never come up with an answer. I'm glad the FO did what they did and I'm certainly glad Luck is a Colt.

See, I don't feel bad for Cleveland at all. Maybe their fans, but not the franchise. (As an aside, isn't it ironic that the city of Baltimore "stole" the Browns from Cleveland, after spending over a decade complaining about how Indianapolis "stole" the Colts from them? Just sayin...) The ownership made several bad decisions, and the management team made more, and the coaches made more, and so on. That franchise has just been classically mismanaged since they came back. This is part of the reason it cracks me up when people would complain about Bill Polian, or even now when they complain about Jim Irsay. No ownership/management team is perfect, but it gets a whole lot worse than the Colts over the past fifteen years. Just ask a Browns fan.

I could say the same about the Jaguars, Raiders, and a few other teams in recent history.

[dw49]

The selection is Andrew Luck, by Jim Irsay.

The stopping I am talking about, is that the team would have had to win enough games for Irsay not to mortgage the future by trading up for Luck. Thoughts/discussion of Elway/Bob Irsay haven't crossed my mind until typing this sentence.

The value of a whole teams draft is irrelevant to me.

I don't understand why the values of a teams drat doesn't have any relevance in the discussion.

Here's what we were told about the offer..

"That team was willing to ship off all its picks, plus players, for the chance to draft Luck. It would surrender one of the richest, if not the richest, packages in NFL history. But Indianapolis never even responded with a proposal. "

If you don't try to put a value on the teams draft , it's tough to discuss this. Although if it were a team like Cleveland compared to say KC , the values there are significantly different. My point was to show what a team drafting in the upper half that had all it picks had in value.

[Dustin]

http://espn.go.com/n...chefter-10-spot

Thanks.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I don't understand why the values of a teams drat doesn't have any relevance in the discussion.

Here's what we were told about the offer..

"That team was willing to ship off all its picks, plus players, for the chance to draft Luck. It would surrender one of the richest, if not the richest, packages in NFL history. But Indianapolis never even responded with a proposal. "

If you don't try to put a value on the teams draft , it's tough to discuss this. Although if it were a team like Cleveland compared to say KC , the values there are significantly different. My point was to show what a team drafting in the upper half that had all it picks had in value.

It might have relevance in the discussion, but it is meaningless to me, because it includes a group of draft picks I have no interest in.

Outside of the top 3 picks, of say this year, and the following 4-5 years, I wouldn't care about picks 4-7 in any of those years or this particular year. If they offer their whole draft this year and 1 next year then you tell them to take a hike. If you(Irsay and Grigson), send them an offer that you(Irsay/Grigson) are comfortable with receiving then and they bite, then all is good. Of course Cleveland's draft picks have more value than KC, because KC had a better record last year so that part of it is obvious.

If I owned the #1, pick and it had the alleged value that the Colts #1 pick, then this past years draft class and a couple of players won't get me to pick up the phone, but when they say make an offer, then I would work up one for them even if I knew it would be impossible for them to accept it, just to do the due diligence of turning over every rock. If the meet my price then so be it.

[NewEra]

no more twinkies makes me upset!

[dw49]

It might have relevance in the discussion, but it is meaningless to me, because it includes a group of draft picks I have no interest in.

Outside of the top 3 picks, of say this year, and the following 4-5 years, I wouldn't care about picks 4-7 in any of those years or this particular year. If they offer their whole draft this year and 1 next year then you tell them to take a hike. If you(Irsay and Grigson), send them an offer that you(Irsay/Grigson) are comfortable with receiving then and they bite, then all is good. Of course Cleveland's draft picks have more value than KC, because KC had a better record last year so that part of it is obvious.

If I owned the #1, pick and it had the alleged value that the Colts #1 pick, then this past years draft class and a couple of players won't get me to pick up the phone, but when they say make an offer, then I would work up one for them even if I knew it would be impossible for them to accept it, just to do the due diligence of turning over every rock. If the meet my price then so be it.

First of all trades are pretty much impossible with the salary cap , cap hits and the way contracts are sometimes drawn up. So It's really difficult (I imagine anyway , for Grigson - Irsay to come up with something that even begins to make sense which involves moving players. As you pretty much say , future draft pikes really don't equate to Lucks value. Especially if the forementioned team was not drafting in the top 4. Thus they more than likely just decided not to watse their time trying to wade through the probablle monsterous mess of wading through how to structure a trade that involves good players going from another team to theirs. It's pretty much a draft pick deal when it comes to these types of trades and as you pretty much state , you don't care about "whole drafts" and future picks lower than 3. How in the world can you ver devise a trade that guarantees you future draft picks in the top 3. I think you pretty much made a good case for why this (if even true) went unanswered by the Colts

[FireJimCaldwell]

First of all trades are pretty much impossible with the salary cap , cap hits and the way contracts are sometimes drawn up. So It's really difficult (I imagine anyway , for Grigson - Irsay to come up with something that even begins to make sense which involves moving players. As you pretty much say , future draft pikes really don't equate to Lucks value. Especially if the forementioned team was not drafting in the top 4. Thus they more than likely just decided not to watse their time trying to wade through the probablle monsterous mess of wading through how to structure a trade that involves good players going from another team to theirs. It's pretty much a draft pick deal when it comes to these types of trades and as you pretty much state , you don't care about "whole drafts" and future picks lower than 3. How in the world can you ver devise a trade that guarantees you future draft picks in the top 3. I think you pretty much made a good case for why this (if even true) went unanswered by the Colts

Of course the cap would make it harder, which is why I was specifically talking draft picks. If a team offered play x and it fit the cap, then it would be considered.

If I have something you want and you tell me to name my price, then I will. It's as simple as that. If it's something you sign off on, then we are in business, if not, then have a nice day.

If you have something I want and you tell me you aren't interested then it's up to me to make you interested in it. Obviously they failed to do so.

[dw49]

Of course the cap would make it harder, which is why I was specifically talking draft picks. If a team offered play x and it fit the cap, then it would be considered.

If I have something you want and you tell me to name my price, then I will. It's as simple as that. If it's something you sign off on, then we are in business, if not, then have a nice day.

If you have something I want and you tell me you aren't interested then it's up to me to make you interested in it. Obviously they failed to do so.

Must be that Grigson and Irsay felt that there was no combination of draft picks from the offering team that would make for resonable trade discussions. Maybe they felt what you suggest was a waste of time. I guess you feel they "failed to do something" and myself and others felt they didn't fail at anything. Some players are just not "tradable." A young John Elway , Dan Marino ... Peyton Manning. There is no way that guys like this would be traded in their primes. If someone said "what would it take to get John Elway" , I don't think the Broncos would have been "obligated" to present that team with an offer. It would be a watse ot time. Must be that Grigson and Irsay feel Luck is in this class. Hense.. the no response.

Also I don't know how you would engineer the trade you speak of when you say you are only interested in draft picks 1-3.

"Outside of the top 3 picks, of say this year, and the following 4-5 years, I wouldn't care about picks 4-7 in any of those years or this particular year. If they offer their whole draft this year and 1 next year then you tell them to take a hike. "

How in the world is any team going to offer a combination of picks 2 and 3 of 2012 and picks 1-3 of subsequent years ?

[FireJimCaldwell]

Must be that Grigson and Irsay felt that there was no combination of draft picks from the offering team that would make for resonable trade discussions. Maybe they felt what you suggest was a waste of time. I guess you feel they "failed to do something" and myself and others felt they didn't fail at anything. Some players are just not "tradable." A young John Elway , Dan Marino ... Peyton Manning. There is no way that guys like this would be traded in their primes. If someone said "what would it take to get John Elway" , I don't think the Broncos would have been "obligated" to present that team with an offer. It would be a watse ot time. Must be that Grigson and Irsay feel Luck is in this class. Hense.. the no response.

Also I don't know how you would engineer the trade you speak of when you say you are only interested in draft picks 1-3.

"Outside of the top 3 picks, of say this year, and the following 4-5 years, I wouldn't care about picks 4-7 in any of those years or this particular year. If they offer their whole draft this year and 1 next year then you tell them to take a hike. "

How in the world is any team going to offer a combination of picks 2 and 3 of 2012 and picks 1-3 of subsequent years ?

How does any trade work? The two sides agree on compensation. That's a fairly simple concept.

We obviously have a difference of opinion on this, so any subsequent response would just be a waste of our time.

[dw49]

How does any trade work? The two sides agree on compensation. That's a fairly simple concept.

We obviously have a difference of opinion on this, so any subsequent response would just be a waste of our time.

Yes subsequent replies woud be a "waste of time." Kind of like Grigson just saying not interested and saving everyone time rather than putting together a stupid request.

[21isSuperman]

See, I don't feel bad for Cleveland at all. Maybe their fans, but not the franchise. (As an aside, isn't it ironic that the city of Baltimore "stole" the Browns from Cleveland, after spending over a decade complaining about how Indianapolis "stole" the Colts from them? Just sayin...) The ownership made several bad decisions, and the management team made more, and the coaches made more, and so on. That franchise has just been classically mismanaged since they came back. This is part of the reason it cracks me up when people would complain about Bill Polian, or even now when they complain about Jim Irsay. No ownership/management team is perfect, but it gets a whole lot worse than the Colts over the past fifteen years. Just ask a Browns fan.

I could say the same about the Jaguars, Raiders, and a few other teams in recent history.

Well said. It is the fans I feel sorry for. The Browns have a very loyal fan base and Cleveland has gotten the short end of the stick in almost all pro sports. The Browns are bad, LeBron did his thing, when's the last time the Indians won a championship?