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#321 GoColts8818

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:40 AM

I don't think you can assume the blocks would have been good kicks. Its best just to throw out those attempts entirely.

He's been streaky this season. He's missed several very makeable kicks, and even the last make against the Jags was super close. Way closer than it should have been. Yes, it was good, but I can't just ignore it when discussing whether he's playing well or not.

I wouldn't suggest that he's playing poorly. You could do a lot worse. I don't think he should be cut; I didn't think so before the season either. But I'm not going to pretend that his misses aren't concerning. Especially ones that should be gimmes for reliable kickers. We've seen how quickly a kicker can go south.

He is if you just toss the blocks out he's 16 of 20 or 80%.
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#322 hawkeyes

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:33 AM

We won the game so its not a big topic with many - maybe if we had lost by 2pts they might not be as forgiving. Fact is, Adam is on the decline and seems to be sliding faster down the slope to can't do it at all any more. Should we cut him ? NO!!! Geesh thats stupid, BUT, we should be considering the future, because clearly he is not it.

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#323 Tom Tescher

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:46 AM

Number 1 has a stronger leg, why not start training him on field goals. A lot of kickers do both with great success.

#324 DMuirfan

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:21 AM

Keep Adam!

#325 statewrestlingchampion

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:13 AM

As I mentioned in the previous post several kickers are MUCH better number wise then Adam has been but let's look at the best 3 below once more

Rackers 27/28 from 30-39 yards , 4/5 from 50 yards , more accurate much stronger leg as well

Mare 23/27 from 30-39 yards, 18/22 from 40-49 , not strong leg any long but makes his kicks

Josh Brown (Didnt see him on your list) 9/13 from 50 plus, 22/26 30-39 yards, huge leg


Adam 2/5 from 30-39 40%, not sure what more really needs to be said. People can defend Adam because they like him but the reality a team figthing for a playoff spot NEEDS a kicker that can make kicks and Adam simply isnt doing his job be it injury as some suggested, old agae as others pointed out or timing with new snapper. It is broke and needs fixing soon.

#326 GoColts8818

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:29 PM

As I mentioned in the previous post several kickers are MUCH better number wise then Adam has been but let's look at the best 3 below once more

Rackers 27/28 from 30-39 yards , 4/5 from 50 yards , more accurate much stronger leg as well

Mare 23/27 from 30-39 yards, 18/22 from 40-49 , not strong leg any long but makes his kicks

Josh Brown (Didnt see him on your list) 9/13 from 50 plus, 22/26 30-39 yards, huge leg


Adam 2/5 from 30-39 40%, not sure what more really needs to be said. People can defend Adam because they like him but the reality a team figthing for a playoff spot NEEDS a kicker that can make kicks and Adam simply isnt doing his job be it injury as some suggested, old agae as others pointed out or timing with new snapper. It is broke and needs fixing soon.

None of those Kickers are MUCH better kickers than Adam. In fact their numbers say they are about the same as Adam if not slightly worse.

As far as the list goes that's not my list it's Silenthill's list of kickers he said he would like to bring in to replace Adam.

Let's add Josh Brown to it.

A career 81% kicker worse than Adam's career of 82% and is about what Adam is at on the season.

Also last year he was only 8 of 14 on kicks from beyond 40 yards.

I bring up the later stat with these kickers for two reasons.

1. The number one compliant about Adam going into this season was that he didn't have the leg anymore even though he clearly did.

2. Those misses is probably what lead to them getting released by their current teams and now that they have another year on them odds are their legs didn't get stronger.

Of Adds three misses from 30 to 39 I looked them up.

First one: He missed in the Bears game and he said after the game he slipped. It happens if you want to call it an excuse then fine but it happens now and then in the out doors.

Second one: He missed the first kick in the Jags game just a flat out miss again it happens. No one likes that it happens but it does.

Third one: Was blocked in the Titans game not his fault. That's like yelling at the QB for an INT when he throws a catch-able ball that gets batted up in the air by the WR and gets picked off. Yes the INT counts against the QB but whose fault is it really and who are they going to yell at when they watch film? The WR who didn't catch the pass. Samething with the blocked field goals they are going to yell at the right side of the line for not doing the job on blocking.

So when you look at why he missed those kicks really one is a miss that just makes you want to pull your hair out and that's the Jags game. Adam slipping in the Bears game can and does happen to all kickers from time-to-time. You don't like it but you know it happens. The last one isn't Adam's fault in anyway.

This team has a kicker who can make kicks. Adam has made 13 of his last 15 and 9 of his last 10 when you take out the blocks that aren't his fault. Those two misses over that time 48 yards and 53 yards hardly something to say a kicker isn't doing his job over. He is hitting on 80% of his kicks this season which means he has missed one more field goal than he does when you compare him to his career average. Adam isn't here because he's perfect he's here because he's clutch. He had a rough spot to start the year Adam has been prone to that threw out his career. They aren't going to cut him in the middle of the season unless the bottom just falls out which despite what some are saying has NOT happened. Let's see how things playout over the back half of the season. Over the course of his career Adam tends to do better as the season goes along. If he keeps playing like he has since the bye week Adam will be fine.

Adam's leg strength has not been an issue. He's honestly been very good on long kicks this year. He's 9 of 11 from beyond 40 yards including 4 of 5 from beyond 50. He's max looks to be about 53 yards. Which is the max for almost any kicker in the NFL anything beyond that you are only really kicking if it is at the end of the Half or the end of the game. If the Colts ever found themselves in that spot and didn't think Adam had the leg they would send Pat out who has a history of being a kicker and has the leg from that distance. So to say we need a kicker because of leg strength isn't really a good argument. So that hurts that part of the Rackers argument. The other part about him being more accurate if flat out false. Adam is a career 82% kicker. Rackers is only a 80% career kicker which is exactly what Adam is at on the year when you account for blocks. He was also shaky from distance last year only hitting on 8 of 13 kicks from beyond 40 yards which is why I don't think Rackers is on a NFL roster.
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#327 GoColts8818

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:33 PM

Number 1 has a stronger leg, why not start training him on field goals. A lot of kickers do both with great success.

He does but it's not nearly as accurate at least according to his college numbers. He was only a 73% kicker in college. That's including being 85% kicker his senior year which was by far his best year in college. If you take that year out he was only a 69% kicker.

Also no team has a guy who does both kicking and punting in the NFL on full-time. They can afford to have two guys one who is really good at punting and one who is really good at kicking so they do.

Trust me if the Colts thought there was a better kicker out there rather it was Pat or someone not on the roster they would go get him.
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#328 statewrestlingchampion

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:20 PM

Gocolts not sure what math you were taught but 45% is a lot worse then any of those guys and excuses about imperfect holds and snapsworks both ways, all the kickers mentioned had imperfect situations that made them miss and that is before even bringing in indoor vs outdoor, sorry excuses walk and results talk, results are all that matter. None of us dislike Adam BUT prefer winning with someone better then losing with Adam, just the way it is. We need the best to succeed and be as good as we can be, it isnt Adam.

#329 bavanlan

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:22 PM

Number 1 has a stronger leg, why not start training him on field goals. A lot of kickers do both with great success.


Name one at the NFL level.

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#330 bavanlan

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

We need the best to succeed and be as good as we can be, it isnt Adam.


Honest question; who out there is available that's better?

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#331 GoColts8818

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:37 PM

Gocolts not sure what math you were taught but 45% is a lot worse then any of those guys and excuses about imperfect holds and snapsworks both ways, all the kickers mentioned had imperfect situations that made them miss and that is before even bringing in indoor vs outdoor, sorry excuses walk and results talk, results are all that matter. None of us dislike Adam BUT prefer winning with someone better then losing with Adam, just the way it is. We need the best to succeed and be as good as we can be, it isnt Adam.

Again when you go back and look at why he missed those kicks (which the people who are making these decision will do) that 45% is a bit miss leading. One kick he slipped on that happens to ALL kickers who kick out doors at some point. Another was blocked which is not his fault so let's stop trying to pretend like it was. The other was a flat out miss. Again, it happens to all kickers from time-to-time. As long as he's not doing it on a regular basis which he isn't (he hasn't missed from inside of 40 since that miss vs. the Jags again outside of the block which again isn't a miss it's a block and not his fault). He had a poor stretch to start the season. Again this has been the norm for AV over the course of his career. For whatever reason he has rough spots from time-to-time. It's why he hasn't gone to more pro-bowls during his career. He's not known for being perfect he's known for being clutch which he has been.

Also in case you haven't noticed we have not lost a game this year because of Adam. We have on the other hand won at least one game thanks to him, should have won another game had the defense not had a melt down and you can argue he won the game yesterday as he scored the points to put us in the lead to stay. He's helping us more than he's hurting us. So this whole losing/winning thing doesn't hold water as we have not lost because of him.

Again when you look at all the kickers names that been brought up to replace Adam most of their career numbers are around what Adam is kicking on the season and lower than his career %. On top of that most of them were shaky last year from distance probably because most of them are older kickers who unlike Adam are showing signs of their legs not being as strong as they once were. We went down this road with Matt Stover once and it bite us bad in the Super Bowl. It's not like there is some 20 year old kicker who is a 95% kicker sitting out there for the Colts to go sign. If there was I am sure the Colts would do it. Frankly most of the kickers out there are slightly worse than Adam over the course of their careers and show signs of struggling from distance, and aren't nearly as good as Adam is in clutch. That's not an upgrade of what they currently have.

Also if they were going to cut Adam it would have been earlier in the season when he was struggling not when he's been 13 of his last 15 and 9 of his last 10. Adam seems to be doing what he normally does have a rough patch early in the season and rebounding after that. Like all players he had a slump the first few weeks he's rebounding from that and let's see what happens the back half of the season. If he has another slump then yes it's time to be concerned if he keeps kicking like he has this past month he's fine.
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#332 Vltrophy1

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:36 PM

Again when you go back and look at why he missed those kicks (which the people who are making these decision will do) that 45% is a bit miss leading. One kick he slipped on that happens to ALL kickers who kick out doors at some point. Another was blocked which is not his fault so let's stop trying to pretend like it was. The other was a flat out miss. Again, it happens to all kickers from time-to-time. As long as he's not doing it on a regular basis which he isn't (he hasn't missed from inside of 40 since that miss vs. the Jags again outside of the block which again isn't a miss it's a block and not his fault). He had a poor stretch to start the season. Again this has been the norm for AV over the course of his career. For whatever reason he has rough spots from time-to-time. It's why he hasn't gone to more pro-bowls during his career. He's not known for being perfect he's known for being clutch which he has been.

Also in case you haven't noticed we have not lost a game this year because of Adam. We have on the other hand won at least one game thanks to him, should have won another game had the defense not had a melt down and you can argue he won the game yesterday as he scored the points to put us in the lead to stay. He's helping us more than he's hurting us. So this whole losing/winning thing doesn't hold water as we have not lost because of him.

Again when you look at all the kickers names that been brought up to replace Adam most of their career numbers are around what Adam is kicking on the season and lower than his career %. On top of that most of them were shaky last year from distance probably because most of them are older kickers who unlike Adam are showing signs of their legs not being as strong as they once were. We went down this road with Matt Stover once and it bite us bad in the Super Bowl. It's not like there is some 20 year old kicker who is a 95% kicker sitting out there for the Colts to go sign. If there was I am sure the Colts would do it. Frankly most of the kickers out there are slightly worse than Adam over the course of their careers and show signs of struggling from distance, and aren't nearly as good as Adam is in clutch. That's not an upgrade of what they currently have.

Also if they were going to cut Adam it would have been earlier in the season when he was struggling not when he's been 13 of his last 15 and 9 of his last 10. Adam seems to be doing what he normally does have a rough patch early in the season and rebounding after that. Like all players he had a slump the first few weeks he's rebounding from that and let's see what happens the back half of the season. If he has another slump then yes it's time to be concerned if he keeps kicking like he has this past month he's fine.

colts may not have lost b/c of him but he's not as clutch as he used to be. As far as the blocked punt I'm sure they'll look to see if it was the holders fault but to a degree IMO Vinateri has part of the blame for a blocked punt

#333 Blackhawk4

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:55 PM

colts may not have lost b/c of him but he's not as clutch as he used to be. As far as the blocked punt I'm sure they'll look to see if it was the holders fault but to a degree IMO Vinateri has part of the blame for a blocked punt


I think you mean kick....anyways...So I guess by your logic if Pat ever has his punt block it's partially Pat's fault the O-line failed to block the D? Makes total sense....
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#334 Superman

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:57 PM

colts may not have lost b/c of him but he's not as clutch as he used to be. As far as the blocked punt I'm sure they'll look to see if it was the holders fault but to a degree IMO Vinateri has part of the blame for a blocked punt


How could the block be the fault of the kicker?
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#335 Indyfan4life

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

colts may not have lost b/c of him but he's not as clutch as he used to be. As far as the blocked punt I'm sure they'll look to see if it was the holders fault but to a degree IMO Vinateri has part of the blame for a blocked punt


I wasn't aware Vinatieri was our punter...

#336 SilentHill

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:44 PM

How could the block be the fault of the kicker?


He should have picked the ball up and ran in for the TD, duh!

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#337 Superman

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:01 PM

He is if you just toss the blocks out he's 16 of 20 or 80%.


And that's not a good percentage for an NFL kicker. Halfway through this season, that would be 27th overall. It's not reason to cut him, but it is reason to have a discussion about whether you want to pay him a $2 million base salary next season. I think we could easily find an 80% kicker in the offseason, if not better. The Rams drafted Greg Zuerlein in the 6th round, and he's 17/20 right now, with a 60 yarder. We'll eventually have to replace Vinatieri, and it won't be with another kicker that has his resume. But 80% isn't above reproach.

And the real problem with Vinatieri's kicks this season have been that he's missing kicks that he shouldn't be missing.
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#338 GoColts8818

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:17 PM

And that's not a good percentage for an NFL kicker. Halfway through this season, that would be 27th overall. It's not reason to cut him, but it is reason to have a discussion about whether you want to pay him a $2 million base salary next season. I think we could easily find an 80% kicker in the offseason, if not better. The Rams drafted Greg Zuerlein in the 6th round, and he's 17/20 right now, with a 60 yarder. We'll eventually have to replace Vinatieri, and it won't be with another kicker that has his resume. But 80% isn't above reproach.

And the real problem with Vinatieri's kicks this season have been that he's missing kicks that he shouldn't be missing.

I don't have a problem with talking about if we want to pay him next season. Like I said before I think the back half of the season will tell if we should keep him or not. If he keeps playing like has the past month where he was 9 of 10 or since the bye where he is 12 of 14 then his % will go up and there will be no reason to release him. For whatever reason Adam has slumps like he did at the start of the season. It's been the pattern of his career and normally he snaps out of it after 2 to 3 games and is fine. If that proves to be the case again then we stick with Adam. If he has another slump before the season is over then yes I would expect the Colts to look for a new kicker in the off-season. With that said if you look at the kickers on the market right now there isn't anyone out there who is better than Adam which is why I am so against making a move right now and I think you agree with me on that part.
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#339 GoColts8818

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:22 PM

colts may not have lost b/c of him but he's not as clutch as he used to be. As far as the blocked punt I'm sure they'll look to see if it was the holders fault but to a degree IMO Vinateri has part of the blame for a blocked punt

He's every bit as clutch as he used to be. Good night he's missed one true game winning kick since he came to Indianapolis and that was in San Diego in 2007. Since then everytime we've needed him to hit a game winner he's done it. He's 41 of 48 in the fourth quarter or overtime since signing with the Colts and five of those misses came before 2009.

How is it Adam's fault the field goal got blocked? What did you want him to kick the ball threw people? These weren't low kicks that got blocked because he kicked it too low this was the right side of the line gave way and there was pressure there to block it. Frankly this has been a problem this year. I know the first block against the Titans was on Link because they showed it on the replay and Tasker (who I make fun of at times but I'll admit the one thing he knows is special teams) pointed out how Link missed the block. The guys yesterday didn't highlight who the guy was that didn't get the block but it looked to come from the exact same spot as the week before which leads me to think it was Link. I'll couple that with Link got called for holding on the missed 48 yarder earlier in the game which would have taken the kick off the board and made us punt anyways they just declined because of the miss. Couple with that that in the Jags game the Jags were getting really close on the right side of the line and I think it's safe to say that the right side of the line is not holding up on kick protection and I just pointed out three plays where you can probably blame Link for that. That should make the Link hatters thrilled.
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#340 statewrestlingchampion

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:49 PM

The Jags game was lost because of Adam's miss was it not ? Thought so. He makes the miss and we only need a chip shot at the end because would be down 2 not 5, most kickers would make both the one he mised and the one at the end that we were in position to kick. Going through rough spots is not something we need to just shrug off, not with a team on the verge of the playoffs not the lock were have become used to year in and year out, this team isnt that level yet. I do not want to say after the fact, guess we should have replaced him sooner we would have been in the playoffs. He is looking shaky even his biggest supporters would admit that much.

#341 jtg1957

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

Do this in a "HEARTBEAT". No focus, No give a :edit:. Just in it for the money.

#342 Gavin

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:01 PM

I think its just silly to be worried about a kicker to be honest.....A KICKER! why create a hole on the team where there does not have to be one, Vinny has never been a great kicker who has been perfect on the season, he usually misses a few per season, we may need his clutch leg down the road and I dont wanna pick up some nobody kicker if we are in the playoff hunt and hope that he has the clutch gene only to find out he doesn't when we need it, Kicker is not a need this year dont make it one

#343 1959Colts

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:05 PM

Next year it shoiuld be time for a change.

#344 Superman

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

The Jags game was lost because of Adam's miss was it not ? Thought so. He makes the miss and we only need a chip shot at the end because would be down 2 not 5, most kickers would make both the one he mised and the one at the end that we were in position to kick. Going through rough spots is not something we need to just shrug off, not with a team on the verge of the playoffs not the lock were have become used to year in and year out, this team isnt that level yet. I do not want to say after the fact, guess we should have replaced him sooner we would have been in the playoffs. He is looking shaky even his biggest supporters would admit that much.


First of all, why the bold?

Secondly, you're wrong. We didn't lose the Jags game because of Vinatieri. We had a lead with 57 seconds left. We lost because we blew a simple zone coverage on Cecil Shorts.
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#345 GoColts8818

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:36 PM

The Jags game was lost because of Adam's miss was it not ? Thought so. He makes the miss and we only need a chip shot at the end because would be down 2 not 5, most kickers would make both the one he mised and the one at the end that we were in position to kick. Going through rough spots is not something we need to just shrug off, not with a team on the verge of the playoffs not the lock were have become used to year in and year out, this team isnt that level yet. I do not want to say after the fact, guess we should have replaced him sooner we would have been in the playoffs. He is looking shaky even his biggest supporters would admit that much.

No it was not. It was lost AFTER Adam gave them the lead with less than a minute to go and the Jags having no timeouts. The DBs who blew the coverage are why we lost that game. Also the whole game changes if he makes the first kick. That has been gone over several times in this thread. If Adam hits the first kick the Jags don't just sit on the ball and run it into the line three straight plays to make us use our timeouts. They are now behind by 2 with two minutes to go which means they are going to try to drive to get into field goal poistion to win the game. The game would not have been the same had Adam made the first kick so let's not try to pretend like it would have so there is no well if we have those three points then all we need is a chip shot at the end because the whole end of the game changes.

You want to look at numbers then you need to look at more than 2-5 from 30 to 39 yards because I promise you no one who makes this call are only going to look at those numbers. They are also going to be willing to look at it and go well one of those were blocked that not the kicker's fault in anyway. They will look at another and go well he slipped stinks but it happens. Then they will go okay yeah he missed one he should have made. They will then say okay what else happened the rest of the year. Oh he's only missed three other kicks and again one of those was blocked. He's hit a game winner and has hit every kick in the fourth quarter except for one? Okay we can we live with that. If there was a better option out there right now the Colts would go get him. This staff is not married to AV in any shape or form and has shown they aren't scared to make a move if they think there is someone better out there. The fact that they have not should probably tell you that they don't view Adam to be a major issue or at the very least they don't think there is someone out there who is better.
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#346 Coffeedrinker

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:19 PM

How do you determine someone is "plenty good enough"? Kickers that miss most of their FG's in the 30 yard range are good?

He did kick a FG that gave the colts the lead, but that is neither here not there since he missed the first one that really crippled us.

Obviously you mis-prioritize the needs of this team. At this point a kicker that can actually make FG's from 30 yards out would be a huge improvement.

and btw


I do find it amusing that you mention only his kicks in the 30 yard range. Either he has lost it or he has not it's not likely he has "lost it" in a 10 yard range but has not lost it in ranges farther.

You're not going to believe this but the issue is not AV's accuracy in the 30 to 39 yard range. The issue is the snapper. I think the long snapper has been doing a great job but his snaps are a tad bit slower than Snow's used to be. Early in the season it caused AV to pull a couple because his leg was further into the kick than last year. So he started to compensate and aim more towards the right upright and that helped him him 9 in a row. Now that they are getting the timing down he needs to adjust from aiming towards the right upright and pull it back more towards the middle. Which is what they will work on this week.

It hasn't affected the FGs within 20 yards because the time difference is not enough to matter. And it's not affecting FGs over 40 because if you watch FGs this year compared to last year, Patty Mac instead of lining up 8 yards back is more about 7 and half yards and AV is a half step closer to the holder to account for the difference. They just have not found that sweet spot yet in the 30 yard range.

#347 BleedBlu8792

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:56 AM

Vanderjagt was a very accurate kicker, but outside of the Denver game in which he kicked that 52 yarder, he was about as useful as Peyton kicking game winning FG's in clutch/pressure situations. I'm sorry but I'll take the 83% kicker who is MONEY in clutch situations over a 90% kicker who goes full # in those situations.

As gocolts stated, until the guy continually causes us to lose games by missing the kicks that he's known for THEN this discussion will have value, but right now he's the LEAST of the Colts worries.

#348 Poster X

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 02:01 AM

Honest question; who out there is available that's better?



No one. The man has made some huge kicks when he has been call upon, and I don't think we have seen the last of those.

Behold the power of the Butter Butler.


#349 SilentHill

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 07:44 AM

I do find it amusing that you mention only his kicks in the 30 yard range. Either he has lost it or he has not it's not likely he has "lost it" in a 10 yard range but has not lost it in ranges farther.

You're not going to believe this but the issue is not AV's accuracy in the 30 to 39 yard range. The issue is the snapper. I think the long snapper has been doing a great job but his snaps are a tad bit slower than Snow's used to be. Early in the season it caused AV to pull a couple because his leg was further into the kick than last year. So he started to compensate and aim more towards the right upright and that helped him him 9 in a row. Now that they are getting the timing down he needs to adjust from aiming towards the right upright and pull it back more towards the middle. Which is what they will work on this week.

It hasn't affected the FGs within 20 yards because the time difference is not enough to matter. And it's not affecting FGs over 40 because if you watch FGs this year compared to last year, Patty Mac instead of lining up 8 yards back is more about 7 and half yards and AV is a half step closer to the holder to account for the difference. They just have not found that sweet spot yet in the 30 yard range.


That's ok because I find it funny that you quoted a post I made back in September.

This topic has already been beaten to death, I kinda wish people would stop posting. There are two sides, the side that want AV and the side that don't. No minds will be changed.

“What he does on the field – he’s an assassin…Class with cruelty.” – Jim Harbaugh on Andrew Luck

 

"It's okay to be smarter than everyone else, but you can't go around pointing it out!" – Mary Cooper







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