Cut Vinateri

[Andy]

The only good part about going right down the middle is that it's prettier. With that being said (and you're darn right I'm beating a dead horse here), it doesn't matter if it goes down the middle or off the post and in, because it's in.

SilentHill, let me ask you this... Lets say the Colts cut Adam, who do you replace him with? and do you believe that candidate could do a better job than him?

[SilentHill]

It's not irrelevant that right there tells you that the whole end of the game changes if Adam makes the first kick which was my point and frankly odds are Adam doesn't try another field goal if we make the first kick because the Jags are going to use up the time trying to get in poistion to try a last second kick of their own if they fail we get the ball back and just run out the clock without us needing another kick because we would have had the lead.

If he makes that kick, the only think you can assert is that we would be up by 3. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less. To speculate on what would have happened after that is stupid.

[SilentHill]

The only good part about going right down the middle is that it's prettier. With that being said (and you're darn right I'm beating a dead horse here), it doesn't matter if it goes down the middle or off the post and in, because it's in.

SilentHill, let me ask you this... Lets say the Colts cut Adam, who do you replace him with? and do you believe that candidate could do a better job than him?

[GoColts8818]

If he makes that kick, the only think you can assert is that we would be up by 3. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less. To speculate on what would have happened after that is stupid.

I can promise you that the Jags don't bang the ball into the line three times just to try to get us timeouts and then punt it back to us so we can let Adam kick another field goal and I can promise you we don't call timeouts there. So yes I can promise you that the game changes if Adam makes the first kick.

[Superman]

and won the game against the Vikings... He's been clutch this year.

I knew I was forgetting another one... Eight seconds left, from 53 yards out. Yeah, that qualifies.

[Andy]

My point is is that it doesn't matter how it goes in, because it's in.

Now, answer my question: Who would you replace Adam with? You talk about cutting him, but you don't know with who? Cutting him is only half the battle.

[SilentHill]

I can promise you that the Jags don't bang the ball into the line three times just to try to get us timeouts and then punt it back to us so we can let Adam kick another field goal and I can promise you we don't call timeouts there. So yes I can promise you that the game changes if Adam makes the first kick.

That is IRRELEVANT! It does not matter what happens after that, because YOU DON'T KNOW. I Don't know, Superman doesn't know, The Jags don't know and God doesn't know. It never happened, WE could have won that game 30000 - 23 or never scored again, your just not getting it. I'm not saying that the game doesn't change or does change, I'm just telling you the FACT that you CANNOT KNOW what WOULD have happened.

[SilentHill]

My point is is that it doesn't matter how it goes in, because it's in.

Now, answer my question: Who would you replace Adam with? You talk about cutting him, but you don't know with who? Cutting him is only half the battle.

Read back like 5 pages, there is a list in there somewhere, I'm too tired to go find it.

[Susie Q]

That's racist.

Sorry that's the pot calling the kettle black.

[GoColts8818]

That is IRRELEVANT! It does not matter what happens after that, because YOU DON'T KNOW. I Don't know, Superman doesn't know, The Jags don't know and God doesn't know. It never happened, WE could have won that game 30000 - 23 or never scored again, your just not getting it. I'm not saying that the game doesn't change or does change, I'm just telling you the FACT that you CANNOT KNOW what WOULD have happened.

I know for a fact that Jags would not have played it the way they did after the miss. Again if you honestly think the Jags would have even thought about playing it the same way I have some land on the moon that I would like to talk to you about buying. The game would have changed if Adam makes the first kick. You might not like it but that's a fact.

[SilentHill]

I know for a fact that Jags would not have played it the way they did after the miss. Again if you honestly think the Jags would have even thought about playing it the same way I have some land on the moon that I would like to talk to you about buying. The game would have changed if Adam makes the first kick. You might not like it but that's a fact.

Here comes the sarcasm, get ready.

Oh great swami, can you tell me the winning lottery numbers too? Or possibly the meaning of life? Since you can look back into the past and see what would have happened. Can you tell me where we would be today, had we lost the revolutionary war? Or what would have happened if the South had won the civil war?

[SilentHill]

Sorry that's the pot calling the kettle black.

No, that's racist.

[Superman]

That is IRRELEVANT! It does not matter what happens after that, because YOU DON'T KNOW. I Don't know, Superman doesn't know, The Jags don't know and God doesn't know. It never happened, WE could have won that game 30000 - 23 or never scored again, your just not getting it. I'm not saying that the game doesn't change or does change, I'm just telling you the FACT that you CANNOT KNOW what WOULD have happened.

Oh my.

It is irrelevant. What's much more relevant is that, with the game on the line, he knocked it through with less than a minute to go, giving us the lead. Clutch kick, through the uprights. Whether the one he missed should be considered clutch or not, the one he made was most definitely clutch.

[Superman]

No, that's racist.

You're not serious, right? I mean, I don't see a sarcasm warning on this post, so...

[SilentHill]

Oh my.

It is irrelevant. What's much more relevant is that, with the game on the line, he knocked it through with less than a minute to go, giving us the lead. Clutch kick, through the uprights. Whether the one he missed should be considered clutch or not, the one he made was most definitely clutch.

A FG with 2 min to play for the lead is a clutch FG.

The one he made after that was clutch too.

[GoColts8818]

Read back like 5 pages, there is a list in there somewhere, I'm too tired to go find it.

I found it here is your list

John Kasay, Neil Rackers, Nick Novak, Graham Gano, Olindo Mare, and Ryan Longwell

Let's check this out now shall we:

Kasay a career 82% kicker worse than Adam

Rackers an career 80% kicker worse than Adam and for the record is what Adam is on the year so far

Novak on the Chargers roster so we can't pick him up even if we wanted too.

Gano a career 75% kicker worse than Adam

Mare a career 81% kicker worse than Adam

Longwell a career 83% kicker again worse than Adam

How are any of those an upgrade or are they just a change for the sake of change?

[SilentHill]

I found it here is your list

John Kasay, Neil Rackers, Nick Novak, Graham Gano, Olindo Mare, and Ryan Longwell

Let's check this out now shall we:

Kasay a career 82% kicker worse than Adam

Rackers an career 80% kicker worse than Adam and for the record is what Adam is on the air

Novak on the Chargers roster so we can't pick him up even if we wanted too.

Gano a career 75% kicker worse than Adam

Mare a career 81% kicker worse than Adam

Longwell a career 83% kicker again worse than Adam

How are any of those an upgrade or are they just a change for the sake of change?

At the time of that list AV was kicking 60%.

[Superman]

A FG with 2 min to play for the lead is a clutch FG.

Perhaps. What about one with four minutes and forty seconds left? http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=320923011&period=0

Like I said, I don't think it's particularly relevant, and the main reason why is because usually, in a close game like that one, there's going to be another possession or two inside those remaining four plus minutes. Of course you'd prefer to make the kick rather than miss it. But even if we call that one a clutch kick, the one with less than a minute left is necessarily more clutch.

The one he made after that was clutch too.

We agree on that.

[GoColts8818]

Here comes the sarcasm, get ready.

Oh great swami, can you tell me the winning lottery numbers too? Or possibly the meaning of life? Since you can look back into the past and see what would have happened. Can you tell me where we would be today, had we lost the revolutionary war? Or what would have happened if the South had won the civil war?

What is with you and the sarcasm bit? Honestly? Again let's not make this personal and just leave it to the subject at hand and talk about it like adults debating a subject.

Now I am not going to sit here and tell you I can see all things in the future and never have. With that said anyone who has ever watched a football game can tell you that the Jags are not going to run the ball into the line three straight times with the goal of making the Colts use their timeouts being behind with less than two minutes to go. That same person can also tell you that the Colts aren't going to use their timeouts there thus the end of the game changes. That doesn't require seeing the future that just requires a basic understanding of football.

[Andy]

Not to mention that those kickers haven't kicked many game winners in their life, and actually a couple of them are horrible in game winning situations. Olindo Mare... Nick Novak (who's now with the Chargers),... Graham Gano, who's never had to kick more than 2 game winners.

I wouldn't take in Neil Rackers... If he got beat by Billy Cundiff (and for Billy to get released 4 weeks later), that's not a good sign. Ryan Longwell missed a lot of easy field goals last year. A couple of thirty yarders, and a few 40 yarders (low 40s). They drafted a kicker for a reason.

All these kickers are nowhere near as good as AV.

[SilentHill]

Perhaps. What about one with four minutes and forty seconds left? http://espn.go.com/n...923011&period=0

Like I said, I don't think it's particularly relevant, and the main reason why is because usually, in a close game like that one, there's going to be another possession or two inside those remaining four plus minutes. Of course you'd prefer to make the kick rather than miss it. But even if we call that one a clutch kick, the one with less than a minute left is necessarily more clutch.

We agree on that.

One could argue any kick to take the lead is clutch, but agreed. The 2nd kick was more clutch.

[SilentHill]

What is with you and the sarcasm bit? Honestly? Again let's not make this personal and just leave it to the subject at hand and talk about it like adults debating a subject.

Now I am not going to sit here and tell you I can see all things in the future and never have. With that said anyone who has ever watched a football game can tell you that the Jags are not going to run the ball into the line three straight times with the goal of making the Colts use their timeouts being behind with less than two minutes to go. That same person can also tell you that the Colts aren't going to use their timeouts there thus the end of the game changes. That doesn't require seeing the future that just requires a basic understanding of football.

Here comes more sarcasm.

Oh great swami, you are too smart for me. Please tell me what would have happened had we recovered the onside kick in the superbowl. I have been wondering that for years.

[SilentHill]

Not to mention that those kickers haven't kicked many game winners in their life, and actually a couple of them are horrible in game winning situations. Olindo Mare... Nick Novak (who's now with the Chargers),... Graham Gano, who's never had to kick more than 2 game winners.

I wouldn't take in Neil Rackers... If he got beat by Billy Cundiff (and for Billy to get released 4 weeks later), that's not a good sign. Ryan Longwell missed a lot of easy field goals last year. A couple of thirty yarders, and a few 40 yarders (low 40s). They drafted a kicker for a reason.

All these kickers are nowhere near as good as AV.

What you mean, is all of these kickers do not have as good of a career as AV. Who's better at this point in time, well that's a different story, especially when you take salary into consideration.

[Andy]

What you mean, is all of these kickers do not have as good of a career as AV. Who's better at this point in time, well that's a different story, especially when you take salary into consideration.

It would actually be a big pain in the butt money wise to cut your kicker and sign a new one.

You don't actually think that if you cut Adam, you pretty much dump his whole contract and not pay a cent of it. Then on top of the money you owe him, you're going to be paying another kicker, who probably can't do as good a job as Adam.

[GoColts8818]

At the time of that list AV was kicking 60%.

and now it's gone up. It was a very small sample, like only six kicks which is why teams don't just make knee jerk reactions. Frankly if you look at the last month and take out the two blocks which aren't Adam's fault Adam is 9 of 10 or 90%. You made this post after the Jags game and then revived it after he missed a 53 yarder in the Green Bay game and then today which tells me you are just watching for Adam to miss because you want him gone. You didn't bother to say anything about cutting him when he didn't miss a kick and hit a game winner vs. the Vikings the week before you started this thread and you didn't add to it when he didn't miss a kick vs. the Jets, Browns or Titans. That would be like me starting a thread saying cutting Ty Hilton and only adding to it when he dropped a pass and not saying a word anytime he caught anything and going back to it every time he dropped a pass. After a while people would just dismiss me as having a grudge against Hilton which is where I think people are starting to go with you and Adam. If that's how you feel fine. I think most Colts fans don't view Adam as a serious issue right now.

[SilentHill]

It would actually be a big pain in the butt money wise to cut your kicker and sign a new one.

You don't actually think that if you cut Adam, you pretty much dump his whole contract and not pay a cent of it. Then on top of the money you owe him, you're going to be paying another kicker, who probably can't do as good a job as Adam.

No, which is why I am not calling for him to be cut at this point of the season.

[Superman]

One could argue any kick to take the lead is clutch, but agreed. The 2nd kick was more clutch.

That's why I said what I said in response to IndyTrav: It depends on how you define clutch. I personally think it's a stretch to call the kick with 4:40 left a clutch kick, just because I don't think the game was hanging in the balance. Make or miss, there's still a ton of time on the clock, a half dozen timeouts left plus a two minute warning. Now, that could have been the last scoring opportunity in the game, but I still don't think that's clutch, not in the moment. That's my opinion; others may differ.

Still, even if Vinatieri is somewhat streaky this season (and he is, and it's super annoying), he still has that ability to come through in big time situations. And so, if you line him up next to another kicker who is kicking at around an 80% clip lately, I think most people would still rather have Vinatieri. There's nothing wrong with being critical of someone who isn't living up to expectations. But you should at least acknowledge what he does bring to the table.

PS -- I don't personally think the money is germane to the discussion. It's kicker money; it's not quarterback money.

[SilentHill]

and now it's gone up. It was a very small sample, like only six kicks which is why teams don't just make knee jerk reactions. Frankly if you look at the last month and take out the two blocks which aren't Adam's fault Adam is 9 of 10 or 90%. You made this post after the Jags game and then revived it after he missed a 53 yarder in the Green Bay game and then today which tells me you are just watching for Adam to miss because you want him gone. You didn't bother to say anything about cutting him when he didn't miss a kick and hit a game winner vs. the Vikings the week before you started this thread and you didn't add to it when he didn't miss a kick vs. the Jets, Browns or Titans. That would be like me starting a thread saying cutting Ty Hilton and only adding to it when he dropped a pass and not saying a word anytime he caught anything and going back to it every time he dropped a pass. After a while people would just dismiss me as having a grudge against Hilton which is where I think people are starting to go with you and Adam. If that's how you feel fine. I think most Colts fans don't view Adam as a serious issue right now.

I didn't revive this thread today someone else did, just for the record. I was content with leaving it dead because at this point we are stuck with him.

[Andy]

No, which is why I am not calling for him to be cut at this point of the season.

He's signed next year too. If you want to talk about resigning him in 2 years and whether the Colts should do it or not, that's another story.

[GoColts8818]

I didn't revive this thread today someone else did, just for the record. I was content with leaving it dead because at this point we are stuck with him.

You are correct you didn't revive it today for that I am sorry. However you are the one who revived it earlier after the Packers miss and started it after the Jags miss and you are keeping it going today which tells me that for whatever reason you seem to have a grudge with him.

[SilentHill]

He's signed next year too. If you want to talk about resigning him in 2 years and whether the Colts should do it or not, that's another story.

Ye only gets that $$ if he plays. I'm hoping he is released before game #1.

[SilentHill]

You are correct you didn't revive it today for that I am sorry. However you are the one who revived it earlier after the Packers miss and started it after the Jags miss and you are keeping it going today which tells me that for whatever reason you seem to have a grudge with him.

The only grudge I have is him missing a lot of FG's early in the season. It has gotten better, but I still don't think he should be our kicker next season.

[Andy]

Ye only gets that $$ if he plays. I'm hoping he is released before game #1.

If you release him before Game 1, then the Colts are stuck with 1.4M in dead cap space, and to, again, replace him with someone who probably won't be as good as him.

EDIT: To get a better understanding on DCS (dead cap space), you should read this: http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/03/explaining-salary-cap-dead-money/

[GoColts8818]

The only grudge I have is him missing a lot of FG's early in the season. It has gotten better, but I still don't think he should be our kicker next season.

We'll see what happens next season I wouldn't be shocked either way. With that said when you look at the whole season Adam hasn't been that bad this season like some have tried to make him out to be. We have far bigger things to be worried about namely the lack of turnovers, a pass rush on defense, a consistent running game, drops in the passing game, and shaky line play. Unless we fix those things odds are Adam isn't going to be a factor when we start to play better teams.

[SilentHill]

If you release him before Game 1, then the Colts are stuck with 1.4M in dead cap space, and to, again, replace him with someone who probably won't be as good as him.

Well worth the risk, but that's my opinion.

[Superman]

He's signed next year too. If you want to talk about resigning him in 2 years and whether the Colts should do it or not, that's another story.

Ye only gets that $$ if he plays. I'm hoping he is released before game #1.

Yup. He has a $200k workout bonus next offseason, and a $2 million base salary. I think what we wind up doing with him depends very much on how the rest of this season plays out, and how he looks during camp and preseason next year. I can't imagine the workout bonus will be a significant factor in whether he stays into next year. But if he continues to miss makeable kicks this season, and then does the same in preseason next year, I could definitely see him being released before the beginning of the season.

[Superman]

If you release him before Game 1, then the Colts are stuck with 1.4M in dead cap space, and to, again, replace him with someone who probably won't be as good as him.

EDIT: To get a better understanding on DCS (dead cap space), you should read this: http://www.steelersd...cap-dead-money/

I think too much is made of so-called "dead cap space." The better way to look at it is that, if he's released before Week 1, you save $2 million in cap space, and can probably sign his replacement for less than half of that. That's only pertinent if he isn't performing well, of course.

Edit -- If we were to release him before the 2012 league year ends, we could accelerate that $1.2 million prorated bonus to the 2012 cap, and be done with entirely going into 2013.

[Andy]

I think too much is made of so-called "dead cap space." The better way to look at it is that, if he's released before Week 1, you save $2 million in cap space, and can probably sign his replacement for less than half of that. That's only pertinent if he isn't performing well, of course.

But he is performing well, which is why he shouldn't be cut, for someone who probably won't do a better job. I mean NFL franchises don't just dump good clutch kickers.

[Andy]

Yup. He has a $200k workout bonus next offseason, and a $2 million base salary. I think what we wind up doing with him depends very much on how the rest of this season plays out, and how he looks during camp and preseason next year. I can't imagine the workout bonus will be a significant factor in whether he stays into next year. But if he continues to miss makeable kicks this season, and then does the same in preseason next year, I could definitely see him being released before the beginning of the season.

That's what happened to Ryan Longwell...

[Superman]

But he is performing well, which is why he shouldn't be cut, for someone who probably won't do a better job. I mean NFL franchises don't just dump good clutch kickers.

I don't think he is performing well.