Cut Vinateri

[Superman]

Exactly, AV is like any other NFL athlete. No one is immune from examination & scrutiny. You pay a man for clutch/consistent FG production not above average or occasional production. Start grooming AV's replacement ASAP like yesterday. HOF kickers can't player forever now can they...

You don't groom replacement kickers. After this season, there will be plenty of free agent kickers, most of them young and vibrant. I'm sure one of them will be in camp.

[Susie Q]

I guess we should be concerned about your sarcasm too since it appears in every post...

[Blackhawk4]

I guess we should be concerned about your sarcasm too since it appears in every post...

I'm just gonna let this post sit here and let you think about what you just said......

[southwest1]

You don't groom replacement kickers. After this season, there will be plenty of free agent kickers, most of them young and vibrant. I'm sure one of them will be in camp.

A fair point Superman. Thank you. I respect AV & I respect his 4 SB rings, but I think after this season it's time to go in a different FG direction. GM Grigson can't be sentimental here. It's time to let AV go IMO.

[GoColts8818]

A fair point Superman. Thank you. I respect AV & I respect his 4 SB rings, but I think after this season it's time to go in a different FG direction. GM Grigson can't be sentimental here. It's time to let AV go IMO.

He's not being sentimental. Adam has made 13 of his last 15 kicks not counting the two blocks which aren't his fault. The two he's missed in that time were from 53 yards and 48 yards. Every kicker in the league is going to miss some of those. On the year he's 16 of 20 again if you take out the blocks. Not perfect but not exactly bad either. It's not like he has been Billy Cundiff out there this season.

I wouldn't be blown away if we go in a different direction at kicker at the end of the year but I am not going to be shocked if they keep Adam either. Again Adam is here because he's clutch not because he's perfect. For his career Adam is only about an 83% kicker. He's hitting at 80% this year. So he's slightly below his career average and reality about one miss below it. That can easily balance out over the back half of the season.

[neverstop1863]

This makes me sick.......ill re-visit when Adam kicks a game winner.

[GoColts8818]

This makes me sick.......ill re-visit when Adam kicks a game winner.

like he did against the Vikings and hit what should have been a game winner vs. the Jags earlier this year?

[SilentHill]

Why don't we stick to the topic rather than taking a personal shot because you don't like that I don't agree with you? Also if you read most of my posts here you'll see that I use sarcasm in everyone of my posts. Also last time I checked there is no rule against using sarcasm.

I'm not personally attacking you, I'm just pointing out the constant use of sarcasm. I could care less if you agree with me or not, your wrong anyway

[SilentHill]

You can assure me based on what? Show me where the Colts coaches have confirmed that Vinny's "barely makes" are evidence of "inconsistency."

... what? Are you insinuating that FG's within 6" of the goal posts are by design?

[GoColts8818]

I'm not personally attacking you, I'm just pointing out the constant use of sarcasm. I could care less if you agree with me or not, your wrong anyway

Read the thread you'll notice that i don't always use sarcasm. You just happened to pick one response where I choose to use it and ignored several others where I did not. Again why don't we stick to the topic rather I am using sarcasm or not has nothing to do with if Adam should be cut or not.

[SilentHill]

That's racist.

[SilentHill]

I'm just gonna let this post sit here and let you think about what you just said......

Oh I know what I just said, I on the other hand don't use sarcasm in every post. So consider it thought about.

[GoColts8818]

... what? Are you insinuating that FG's within 6" of the goal posts are by design?

I think he's saying the idea is to put the field goal between the uprights rather it's by 6 inches or right down the middle it doesn't matter it counts as three points all the same. Again that's like complaining about Ballard's TD against the Titans because it was barely a touchdown. It counts as a touchdown all the same.

[SilentHill]

Read the thread you'll notice that i don't always use sarcasm. You just happened to pick one response where I choose to use it and ignored several others where I did not. Again why don't we stick to the topic rather I am using sarcasm or not has nothing to do with if Adam should be cut or not.

Well at this point I'm gonna agree, no use cutting him, I'd for sure think about benching him, and I wouldn't even think about bringing him back after this season. We can have the thread title changed if you want? I made this thread in like week 2?

[SilentHill]

I think he's saying the idea is to put the field goal between the uprights rather it's by 6 inches or right down the middle it doesn't matter it counts as three points all the same. Again that's like complaining about Ballard's TD against the Titans because it was barely a touchdown. It counts as a touchdown all the same.

No it's not. I know the points count if he makes it, but do you think that is how he wants to make it? He is obviously trying to go right down the middle and barely getting it through the uprights, it is a cause for concern if nothing else.

[neverstop1863]

like he did against the Vikings and hit what should have been a game winner vs. the Jags earlier this year?

Look my thought is yea he may miss some kicks maybe some big kicks but he is still the one i want out there when our playoff hopes are on the line......or the Superbowl is on the line, everyone has a bad stretch but this man has earned some understanding. Yes maybe soon it will be time to move on, but as of right now our FG kicker is number 4 and i support and love it! Lets support our boys in blue right now for this win!!!! The future is what it is.........

[GoColts8818]

Well at this point I'm gonna agree, no use cutting him, I'd for sure think about benching him, and I wouldn't even think about bringing him back after this season. We can have the thread title changed if you want? I made this thread in like week 2?

I don't care what you call it and I don't care if you want to talk about it. That's not my point. My point was that rather I am using sarcasm or not has nothing to do with the thread's topic.

I do think it get's slightly annoying that any time Adam misses a kick someone rushes in here to revive this thread. It's almost like people are waiting to see him miss so they can go see see cut him I was right! Which I think is part of this forum's problem at time people get hung up on being right than really seeing what's going on. With that said there NOTHING against the rules about suggesting we should cut a player so if people want to do it fine. I just happen to think people are trying to make Adam into a way bigger issue than he really is. The fact we have had one turnover in the time this thread has been alive is a much bigger issue. The fact we get zero pass rush without Freeney and Mathis in the game bothers me. The fact that our o-line is very shaky (although improving) is a bigger issue. The fact that our WRs seem to get bad cases of the drops now and then bothers me more than Adam. The fact we still can't run the ball on a regular basis bothers me more than Adam. So on my list of things to be concerned about Adam is far from the top yet this is the thread people run to any chance they get. If that's what people are concerned about fine so be it but I really don't think Adam is nearly the issue that some want him to be.

[GoColts8818]

No it's not. I know the points count if he makes it, but do you think that is how he wants to make it? He is obviously trying to go right down the middle and barely getting it through the uprights, it is a cause for concern if nothing else.

I don't care if he barely makes it or he kicks right down the middle just like I didn't care if Ballard's TD barely crossed the goal line as he's flying threw the air or he went into the endzone standing up untouched. There are no style points in the NFL.

[GoColts8818]

Look my thought is yea he may miss some kicks maybe some big kicks but he is still the one i want out there when our playoff hopes are on the line......or the Superbowl is on the line, everyone has a bad stretch but this man has earned some understanding. Yes maybe soon it will be time to move on, but as of right now our FG kicker is number 4 and i support and love it! Lets support our boys in blue right now for this win!!!! The future is what it is.........

I am there with you I am just pointing out he's already kicked a game winner and hit another what should have been a game winner (he had nothing to do with the defense melt down after that kick). Conversely he's yet to cost us a game this season and anytime we've truly needed him he came threw. Heck he hit a game winner today. It was his field goal that gave us the lead that we held on to. No it wasn't the last second game winner but it was the winning points none the less. I think we are on the same side of this subject.

[SilentHill]

I don't care what you call it and I don't care if you want to talk about it. That's not my point. My point was that rather I am using sarcasm or not has nothing to do with the thread's topic.

I do think it get's slightly annoying that any time Adam misses a kick someone rushes in here to revive this thread. It's almost like people are waiting to see him miss so they can go see see cut him I was right! Which I think is part of this forum's problem at time people get hung up on being right than really seeing what's going on. With that said there NOTHING against the rules about suggesting we should cut a player so if people want to do it fine. I just happen to think people are trying to make Adam into a way bigger issue than he really is. The fact we have had one turnover in the time this thread has been alive is a much bigger issue. The fact we get zero pass rush without Freeney and Mathis in the game bothers me. The fact that our o-line is very shaky (although improving) is a bigger issue. The fact that our WRs seem to get bad cases of the drops now and then bothers me more than Adam. The fact we still can't run the ball on a regular basis bothers me more than Adam. So on my list of things to be concerned about Adam is far from the top yet this is the thread people run to any chance they get. If that's what people are concerned about fine so be it but I really don't think Adam is nearly the issue that some want him to be.

My concern is that you think all of these problems are huge, but you don't think that our placekicker only making 80% of his attempts is a concern. I think all of your concerns are valid, and I also think AV is a big concern, the reason is, we are winning close games, we need to keep the games close due to the issues you listed. When you go out and miss field goals, it really hurts a team that has such small margin of victory like the Colts do.

[SilentHill]

I don't care if he barely makes it or he kicks right down the middle just like I didn't care if Ballard's TD barely crossed the goal line as he's flying threw the air or he went into the endzone standing up untouched. There are no style points in the NFL.

Ballard was trying to score in that fashion, AV was not trying to kick the ball within 6" of the upright. Do you see the difference?

[GoColts8818]

My concern is that you think all of these problems are huge, but you don't think that our placekicker only making 80% of his attempts is a concern. I think all of your concerns are valid, and I also think AV is a big concern, the reason is, we are winning close games, we need to keep the games close due to the issues you listed. When you go out and miss field goals, it really hurts a team that has such small margin of victory like the Colts do.

Since he's only an 83% kicker for his career him hitting 80% of his kicks doesn't strike me as a big concern especially since his reputation is for being clutch not perfect and he's been clutch every time we've needed him to be clutch this season then no it's not a big issue. Till he misses a kick with the game on the line or we lose as a direct result of him missing a kick I am not going to attack him like he's done that like you are doing.

The other things are much bigger concerns to me because they have impacted us in winning and losing games and frankly IMO are much more likely to cost us a game than Adam is. The turnovers thing really bothers me. You can get away with that when you are playing teams like the Browns, Dolphins, and the Titans but when get into games against the Texans, at the Lions and at New England we are going to need turnovers just to give us a chance. Luck isn't going to be able to drive the ball 80 yards every time against those teams like he's been doing these past few weeks. We are going to need some turnover to even the talent gap a little bit for Adam to even be a factor in the out come.

[GoColts8818]

Ballard was trying to score in that fashion, AV was not trying to kick the ball within 6" of the upright. Do you see the difference?

I am sure the Colts did not draw up that play vs. the Titans and say okay Ballard we want to you go flying threw the air for five yards and barely get in the endzone. It worked though and no one complained just like most are not going to complain about an Adam make rather they are by six inches or right down the middle.

[SilentHill]

Since he's only an 83% kicker for his career him hitting 80% of his kicks doesn't strike me as a big concern especially since his reputation is for being clutch not perfect and he's been clutch every time we've needed him to be clutch this season then no it's not a big issue. Till he misses a kick with the game on the line or we lose as a direct result of him missing a kick I am not going to attack him like he's done that like you are doing.

The other things are much bigger concerns to me because they have impacted us in winning and losing games and frankly IMO are much more likely to cost us a game than Adam is. The turnovers thing really bothers me. You can get away with that when you are playing teams like the Browns, Dolphins, and the Titans but when get into games against the Texans, at the Lions and at New England we are going to need turnovers just to give us a chance. Luck isn't going to be able to drive the ball 80 yards every time against those teams like he's been doing these past few weeks. We are going to need some turnover to even the talent gap a little bit for Adam to even be a factor in the out come.

and 80% might be fine for Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with their high powered offenses, but we are not those teams. We need consistency. He missed at least one clutch kick in the Jags game, that probably would have sealed the game for us, before he got his 2nd opportunity.

[SilentHill]

I am sure the Colts did not draw up that play vs. the Titans and say okay Ballard we want to you go flying threw the air for five yards and barely get in the endzone. It worked though and no one complained just like most are not going to complain about an Adam make rather they are by six inches or right down the middle.

Vick Ballard running to the outside, see's two defenders and dives for the end zone, Touchdown.

AV lines up for a FG and almost shanks it, just making it inside the left upright. Field Goal.

Vick Ballard runs up the middle with no one in front of him (a sure touchdown), he runs to the corner of the field to meet the defender and gets hit, barely making it into the end zone. Touchdown.

Which two of these plays seem to fit inconsistency the best?

[GoColts8818]

and 80% might be fine for Tom Brady and Peyton Manning with their high powered offenses, but we are not those teams. We need consistency. He missed at least one clutch kick in the Jags game, that probably would have sealed the game for us, before he got his 2nd opportunity.

He hit the clutch kick vs. the Jags when he got the re-do about a minute later. In other words he he hit the kick we HAD to have. That's clutch. That first kick would have not sealed the game for us. The Jags would have gotten the ball back with three timeouts and the two minute warning needing just a field goal to win. They would have not sat on the ball like they did to try to make us use our timeouts. They would have played to win and probably driven down to try a last second kick with their kicker of their own. In a very strange way him missing that kick probably gave us a better chance to win with the way things ended up playing out it was the defense who failed to cover the guy after he gave us the lead that cost us the game.

[SilentHill]

He hit the clutch kick vs. the Jags when he got the re-do about a minute later. In other words he he hit the kick we HAD to have. That's clutch. That first kick would have not sealed the game for us. The Jags would have gotten the ball back with three timeouts and the two minute warning needing just a field goal to win. They would have not sat on the ball like they did to try to make us use our timeouts. They would have played to win and probably driven down to try a last second kick with their kicker of their own. In a very strange way him missing that kick probably gave us a better chance to win with the way things ended up playing out it was the defense who failed to cover the guy after he gave us the lead that cost us the game.

You can't know that, we forced a 3 and out after that miss, so IMHO he missed a clutch kick no matter how you look at it.

[GoColts8818]

Vick Ballard running to the outside, see's two defenders and dives for the end zone, Touchdown.

AV lines up for a FG and almost shanks it, just making it inside the left upright. Field Goal.

Vick Ballard runs up the middle with no one in front of him (a sure touchdown), he runs to the corner of the field to meet the defender and gets hit, barely making it into the end zone. Touchdown.

Which two of these plays seem to fit inconsistency the best?

Again I am sure the Ballard diving into the Endzone the way it was not how it drawn up just like Adam only hitting a field goal by six inches isn't how the kick was drawn up. With that said both worked so most people who don't have an agenda against one of the people involved don't care. The only thing they care about is that it worked.

[SilentHill]

Again I am sure the Ballard diving into the Endzone the way it was not how it drawn up just like Adam only hitting a field goal by six inches isn't how the kick was drawn up. With that said both worked so most people who don't have an agenda against one of the people involved don't care. The only thing they care about is that it worked.

There is no drawing up a kicking play, it's pretty simple, long snapper snaps the ball, to the holder, the holder places the ball, the kicker kicks it between the uprights. When you have someone who's job is to kick a FG between the uprights, and he practices all week trying to make FG's right down the middle, but he just can't seem to consistently do it, he still makes his FG's but most of them are very close to being misses, that doesn't concern you in the least bit?

[GoColts8818]

You can't know that, we forced a 3 and out after that miss, so IMHO he missed a clutch kick no matter how you look at it.

So you think the Jags would have sat on the ball just to make us use timeouts like they did if they were behind? If you honestly believe that I have some land on the moon I would like to talk to you about buying. I might be wrong about if the Jags would have driven down the field but I am right that the whole game changes if Adam makes the first kick and I'll say this one of two things PROBABLY happens.

1. The Jags drive down and kick a field goal or at least try one.

2. They turn it over to us probably by punt in which case we either run out the clock or end up punting it back to them either way Adam doesn't kick again.

Either way the field goal didn't change the outcome of the game. He pretty much got a do over on the exact same kick a minute later and hit the kick and put us in the same situation we would have been in had he hit the first one the only difference would have been there would have been more time on the clock and the Jags would have had their timeouts. I don't know about you but I feel better about giving the team the ball with less than a minute to go with no timeouts than giving them the ball with two minutes to go plus all three timeouts with them only needing a field goal. That's what I mean when I say in a strange way our chances to win went up because he missed the first kick with the way things played out. We lost because our defense got burned not because of Adam's miss.

[GoColts8818]

There is no drawing up a kicking play, it's pretty simple, long snapper snaps the ball, to the holder, the holder places the ball, the kicker kicks it between the uprights. When you have someone who's job is to kick a FG between the uprights, and he practices all week trying to make FG's right down the middle, but he just can't seem to consistently do it, he still makes his FG's but most of them are very close to being misses, that doesn't concern you in the least bit?

Then why on earth are you trying to say it's not by design for it to only be good by six inches? If it's not drawn up then it doesn't matter by how much it's good by which is the point. It doesn't matter if he barely hit it or nailed it right down the middle. He gets three points for it either way. Again other than people who are trying to find a reason to say Adam needs to be cut no cares by how much he made the kick they just care he made the kick. It's not like you get a bonus point if he hits it right down the middle.

[SilentHill]

Then why on earth are you trying to say it's not by design for it to only be good by six inches? If it's not drawn up then it doesn't matter by how much it's good by which is the point. It doesn't matter if he barely hit it or nailed it right down the middle. He gets three points for it either way. Again other than people who are trying to find a reason to say Adam needs to be cut no cares by how much he made the kick they just care he made the kick. It's not like you get a bonus point if he hits it right down the middle.

So you don't care then, if he is inconsistent with his kicking, as long as he makes 8/10 FG's, is that correct?

[SilentHill]

So you think the Jags would have sat on the ball just to make us use timeouts like they did if they were behind? If you honestly believe that I have some land on the moon I would like to talk to you about buying. I might be wrong about if the Jags would have driven down the field but I am right that the whole game changes if Adam makes the first kick and I'll say this one of two things PROBABLY happens.

1. The Jags drive down and kick a field goal or at least try one.

2. They turn it over to us probably by punt in which case we either run out the clock or end up punting it back to them either way Adam doesn't kick again.

Either way the field goal didn't change the outcome of the game. He pretty much got a do over on the exact same kick a minute later and hit the kick and put us in the same situation we would have been in had he hit the first one the only difference would have been there would have been more time on the clock and the Jags would have had their timeouts. I don't know about you but I feel better about giving the team the ball with less than a minute to go with no timeouts than giving them the ball with two minutes to go plus all three timeouts with them only needing a field goal. That's what I mean when I say in a strange way our chances to win went up because he missed the first kick with the way things played out. We lost because our defense got burned not because of Adam's miss.

I'll agree to disagree on this, there is no way we could ever begin to know what would have happened had he made that FG, but It's always better to have points than not have points, and that is all we know.

[GoColts8818]

So you don't care then, if he is inconsistent with his kicking, as long as he makes 8/10 FG's, is that correct?

He's not inconsistent. He's consistent he's hit 80% of his kicks. Inconsistent is what Billy Cundiff was this season when he was only making like 54% of his kicks.

[GoColts8818]

I'll agree to disagree on this, there is no way we could ever begin to know what would have happened had he made that FG, but It's always better to have points than not have points, and that is all we know.

I know that no team in the NFL would have tried to just run the ball three times like the Jags did to make the other team use it's timeouts if they were behind with less than two minutes in a game.

[SilentHill]

He's not inconsistent. He's consistent he's hit 80% of his kicks. Inconsistent is what Billy Cundiff was this season when he was only making like 54% of his kicks.

He's inconsistent with his kick placement. Semantics.

So you don't care then, if he is inconsistent with his kicking, as long as he makes 8/10 FG's, is that correct?

[SilentHill]

I know that no team in the NFL would have tried to just run the ball three times like the Jags did to make the other team use it's timeouts if they were behind with less than two minutes in a game.

That is irrelevant, but ok.

[GoColts8818]

He's inconsistent with his kick placement. Semantics.

So you don't care then, if he is inconsistent with his kicking, as long as he makes 8/10 FG's, is that correct?

No it's not semantics you are trying to nit pick his makes to try to cling to your point that he should be cut. Again there are no style points on this. If he was 54% like Billy Cundiff was I would agree with you that he was being inconsistent and he was a real issue. With that said he's not. In reality on average he's missed about one more kick than he normally does based on his career average. I can live with that for a kicker who's reputation is being clutch and when we've truly needed him to be clutch he's been just that. He's kicked a last second win, another kick that should have been a game winner had the defense not made a horrible play and he hit the kick today that ended up being the game winner. On top of that he's hit 13 of his last 15 kicks when you take out the blocks which you need to because those aren't his fault with his only two misses being from 48 yards and 53 yards. That's something again I can live with. In fact he's missed one kick in a month. Again I can live with that. On a list of things that would make to majorly concerned about Adam goes towards the bottom.

[Superman]

He's inconsistent with his kick placement. Semantics.

So you don't care then, if he is inconsistent with his kicking, as long as he makes 8/10 FG's, is that correct?

Ehh, I'd prefer better than 8/10, that's for sure. But I don't really care if the ones he makes are just inside the uprights, so long as they're inside the uprights.

[GoColts8818]

That is irrelevant, but ok.

It's not irrelevant that right there tells you that the whole end of the game changes if Adam makes the first kick which was my point and frankly odds are Adam doesn't try another field goal if we make the first kick because the Jags are going to use up the time trying to get in poistion to try a last second kick of their own if they fail we get the ball back and just run out the clock without us needing another kick because we would have had the lead.