I think Marvin was the best route-runner in NFL history -- a big part of that was due to his very strong chemistry with Peyton. I don't think any QB-WR duo will ever accomplish what those 2 did in terms of statistics or in terms the timing and awareness they had together.
I know of at least 2 top-tier DBs who played when Marvin was in the league (with Randy Moss, TO, and several other WRs who brought more attention to themselves for their antics than Marv did) who said Marv was the best they ever faced -- Charles 'Peanut' Tillman and Champ Bailey (probably the best DB in the NFL that had enough of a sample size against Marvin's class of WRs in their prime to make a solid judgement).
Just look at Marvin's NFL Records -- until OBJ comes close to doing anything like this, over this amount of time, I don't think people should be debating it:
-Most receptions in a single season with 143, set in 2002
-Most receptions in a 4 season period (469), 1999–2002; 5 season period (563), 1999–2003; 7 season period (731), 1999–2005; 8 season period (826), 1999–2006; 9 season period (885), 1998–2006; 10 season period (958), 1997–2006; 11 season period (1,022), 1996–2006
-Most receiving yards in a 4 season period (6,322), 1999–2002; 5 season period (7,594), 1999–2003
-Most games in a career with at least 8 receptions (51), 9 receptions (32), 11 receptions (12), 12 receptions (8)
-Most consecutive games with at least 6 receptions (16) and 9 receptions (6)
-Most consecutive seasons with at least 5 touchdowns (11) – shared with Jerry Rice, Don Hutson, Cris Carter, Tim Brown, Terrell Owens
-Most consecutive seasons with at least 6 touchdowns (11) – shared with Terrell Owens, Jerry Rice, Don Hutson
-Most consecutive seasons with at least 5 touchdown receptions (11) – shared with Jerry Rice, Don Hutson, Cris Carter, Tim Brown, Terrell Owens
-Most consecutive seasons with at least 6 touchdown receptions (11) – shared with Jerry Rice, Don Hutson
-Most consecutive seasons with at least 10 touchdown receptions (8)
-Most consecutive seasons with at least 11 touchdown receptions (4)-tied with Lance Alworth, Art Powell
-Most consecutive seasons with at least 14 touchdown receptions (2)-tied with Jerry Rice
-Most Consecutive seasons with 1,400+ receiving yards (4); 1999–2002
-Most Consecutive seasons with 100+ receptions (4); 1999–2002
-Most Consecutive seasons with 82+ receptions (8); 1999–2006
-Most games in a single season (2002) with at least 6 receptions (15), 7 receptions (12), 8 receptions (12), 9 receptions (10), 11 receptions (5)
-Most games in a season with at least 13 receptions (2) in 1999 – tied with several players
- Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning currently hold the record for most completions between a Wide Receiver and Quarterback with 953.
- Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning currently hold the NFL record for passing touchdowns between a WR and QB with 112.
- Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning currently hold the NFL record for passing yards between a WR and QB with 12,756.
-Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning currently hold the NFL record for completions in a season between a WR and QB with 143 in 2002.
- First player to record 2 seasons of 1,600 yards receiving in NFL history, (1999 & 2002). (Torry Holt became the 2nd, (2000 & 2003)
- First player to have 50+ receptions in his first 11 seasons in NFL history. (Torry Holt became the 2nd on December 27, 2009)
-Most consecutive seasons of 1,000+ all-purpose yards and 10+ touchdown receptions (8), 1999–2006
-On December 18, 2006, Marvin Harrison and Indianapolis Colt teammate Reggie Wayne became the only NFL wide receiver tandem to catch 75 receptions and 1,000 yards in 3 straight seasons. The game was on Monday Night and was played against the Cincinnati Bengals.
-On November 17, 2002, made his 600th career reception against the Dallas Cowboys
-On October 12, 2003, made his 700th career reception against the Carolina Panthers. And is the fastest player to do so reaching the mark in 114 games
-On November 8, 2004, made his 800th career reception against the Minnesota Vikings. And is the fastest player to do so reaching the mark in 131 games
-On November 20, 2005, made his 900th career reception against the Cincinnati Bengals. And is the fastest player to do so reaching the mark in 149 career games
-On December 10, 2006, made his 1000th reception against the Jacksonville Jaguars. And is the fastest player to do so reaching the mark in 167 career games
-On December 28, 2008, made his 1,100th career reception against the Tennessee Titans in his last regular season game and his last game in Indianapolis. He is the fastest player to do so reaching the mark in 190 career games.
-Most receptions over first 7 seasons (665), 8 seasons (759), 9 seasons (845), 10 seasons (927), 11 seasons (1,022) and 13 seasons (1,102) of career of any NFL receiver
-Most consecutive games with a reception to start a career (190)
-Most average receptions per game in a career (5.8) – 1996–2008
-Most consecutive games with 8+ receiving yards (190), (206 if counting playoffs) – every game
-Most consecutive games with a 6+ yard reception (190), (206 if counting playoffs) – every game
-Most consecutive games with an 8+ yard reception (177), (192 if counting playoffs)
He'll be fine and I mean, he's going to be here the next 6 years. There's no perfect QB and even the very good one's have droughts, bad games here and there, etc. Nothing wrong with being frustrated with that, but it'd jsut be nice if people could accept players with their faults and understand that sometimes, things aren't going to be perfect all of the time. Accepting it doesn't mean you approve of it. But it would be nice if, after a bad week, we don't always start to question what type of QB Luck is. I'm not accusing you of anything, you've always been level headed from my perspective.
Anyhow, at this point, he's a good QB, not much is going to change that between now and retirement, assuming something catastrophic doesn't happen like he gets shot buying groceries or injured into retirement. Whether or not he'll ever be a great QB or better is a 15-20 year journey that we can't ever know the answer until it's obvious. Right now it isn't because, as most people should understand, we're only 5 years into that 15-20 year career.
I hope you're kidding on this, honestly.
OBJ came in as a rookie with a most-likely future HOF QB throwing to him. Marvin came in with Jim Harbaugh, who although is one of my all-time favorite Colts, was not much more than a mediocre NFL QB. Sure, Marv's rookie year he had Marshall Faulk (who rushed for a whopping 587 yards with a 3.0 average YPC) -- in fact, the Colts rushed for only 1,448 yards Marv's rookie year compared to the Giants who rushed for 1,603 total yards (in a more pass-heavy league, they had 2 guys who exceeded Marshall Faulk's rushing production if you compare side by side). Marv's supporting WR cast his rookie year included the great Sean Dawkins, the amazing Aaron Bailey, and the very feared threat Brian Stablein. He also had Ken Dilger (a very average NFL TE), and Marcus Pollard (who had a grand total of 6 receptions in 1996). In total, as a rookie, Marv led the Colts in receiving yards and receptions, with Sean Dawkins and Faulk being the only 2 to have >50 receptions and Dilger being the only other to have >40 receptions and Lamont Warren as the only other to have >20 receptions. In 1997 (Marv's second year), Sean Dawkins was the only other Colt to have >50 receptions, and Faulk the only to have >40 (Faulk rushed for 1,054 yards that year and the Colts rushed for 1,727 total). Marv's 3rd year was Faulk's best year in Indy and Faulk led the team in receptions, with only he and Marv hauling in >50 receptions. Marv's receiving cast included Torrance Small, Jerome Pathon, and the injured EG Green. The TEs caught a total of 55 passes (Pollard and Dilger combined). Peyton Manning broke the record for single-season interceptions thrown and the Colts were so good they went 3-13. In 1999, Marv and Edge were the only 2 to have over 50 receptions, and Marv became a star with a receiving corps so good the next best WR was Terrence Wilkins!
OBJ as a rookie had a team that rushed for 1,603 yards, with 2 players (Andre Williams and Rashad Jennings) who outperformed Faulk in Marv's rookie year. OBJ had Rueben Randle haul in 71 receptions (more than any Colt in 1996), and Larry Donnell haul in 63 receptions as a tight-end (which would have been second to Marvin as a rookie). Eli threw for 4,410 yards compared to Jim Harbaugh, Paul Justin and Kerwin Bell combining for 3,544. Did I mention, Eli is likely headed to the HOF, while Marvin was hauling in balls from that trio?
Marv didn't have Reggie until his 6th year in the league, he didn't have a solid QB until his 4th year in the league (Peyton's second year -- Peyton was very troubled as a rookie QB). Marv had a worse running game than OBJ's team until his 4th year in the league when Faulk had a stellar season. Marv's best compliment as WR was either Sean Dawkins, Torrence Small, or Terrence Wilkins until his 6th year, when Reggie had a stunning 27 receptions as a rookie. In fact, Reggie didn't have over 50 receptions and become a legitimate threat across from Marvin until Marvin's 8th year in the league.
OBJ now has Sterling Sheperd and Victor Cruz alongside him, as very legitimate threats. The one point I hope I made clear is that your argument holds no validity. I also would like to point out that at this point in time, there is no way to compare OBJ to Marvin as a career WR.... OBJ has had 2 very good years in this league (a much WR and QB friendly league than when Marv started).... Marv had the best 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 consecutive seasons out of any WR in NFL history... when OBJ comes close to doing any of that, we can revisit the topic.
My comment about Langford was a joke, obviously.
Every unit out played the defensive line, IMO. The Safeties have been the most consistent group on defense and the injury riddled CBs have played about as well as we could have hoped, really. Much of the yards you attribute to the "banged up secondary" falls on the LBs and dlines failure to create pressure and cover their responsibilities. As I said, I can see where people would say the LBs have been worse than the defensive line.
Hi, Nils here....
I know a lot of Europeans support the Patriots, but all I can say is no way man, no way!
I'm not entirely sure when I started to follow and cheer for the Colts, but I has no shame in admitting that it was when Manning begun to really shine. It was probably back in 1999 because I seem to remember that play-off game against the Titans.
I also remember the I loved how the Colts would play a beautiful offensive game whereas other teams were boring with their defensive strengths. Aaaahh, those were the days!
I was introduced to American Football during my American Politics/presidential election study in Washington D.C. in the fall of 1996 (Clinton vs Dole). Didn't really get attached to any team back then, so you can say that Redskins just left me totally uninspired.
It is a great and welcoming forum here - and that is just how I remembered America too.