How Do We Decide If A Coach Is Good Or Bad?

dn4192 · October 26, 2011

The debate is on if Jim Caldwell is a good coach or not. So how do we decide? I mean was Phil Jackson of the NBA a great coach or just lucky to have 3-4 of the greates players to ever suit up in the NBA on this team?

What about Bill B. in NE? He couldn't do anything in Cleveland but comes to NE, gets good/great talent around him and wins 3 SB in like 4-5 seasons, but hasn't won one in while, even in the season he team went undefeated until the SB and was beaten by Tom Coughlin and the NY Giants, a team they had already beaten in teh regular season.

You look at Joe Torre in MLB, managed a number of different teams to nothing special, goes to the Yankees with all their talent and money and wins a handful of WS titles, then goes to the Dodges and does basically nothing.

How much impact does the coach have? Do NFL coaches have more impact on the outcome of a game over say a MLB manager or NBA manager? Jimmy Johnson was great in Dallas because he was a great coach, or because due to sucking so much before he got there and the incredible Walker trade made some incredible draft picks and those players got Dallas on top?

I personally think it's not easy to determine any coaches ability over a short time period. I think a number of things go into how good coaches are....what do others think?

Jaric · October 26, 2011

Winning. Even under adversity. In fact, especially under adversity. That's always key.

But you also look at how the team looks. Do they appear prepared and disciplined? If so, then they've been well coached. Do they look confused and afraid? Then they probably have not been. Lots of penalties? Consistently missing tackles and assignments? These are all signs of deficient coaching.

You look at things like adjustments. How things change from one half to the other. How a coach fares when making tough decisions. Like when to go for it on 4th down and when to punt.

Do players respond to him? Is he the kind of guy players want to play for. Run through brick walls for?

How does he represent the team in the public eye? (Hey, it's part of the job too)

joo 2h · October 26, 2011

Winning. Even under adversity. In fact, especially under adversity. That's always key.
But you also look at how the team looks. Do they appear prepared and disciplined? If so, then they've been well coached. Do they look confused and afraid? Then they probably have not been. Lots of penalties? Consistently missing tackles and assignments? These are all signs of deficient coaching.
You look at things like adjustments. How things change from one half to the other. How a coach fares when making tough decisions. Like when to go for it on 4th down and when to punt.
Do players respond to him? Is he the kind of guy players want to play for. Run through brick walls for?
How does he represent the team in the public eye? (Hey, it's part of the job too)

does any of these show what Jim Caldwell has done for us? Almost no for all of them but one, he has represented the team in the public eye, but then again after getting blow out 62-7 I might have to take that back because that was a. Nightmare on primetime tv

number28 · October 26, 2011

great topic DN

The key factor is how the players respond and their demeanor on and off the field.

If you take Caldwell for example, the year we went to teh Super Bowl under him, our players played their hearts out that season. Now the question is were they doing it for our coach or were they doing it for Manning?

This year our leader is out. The players are not responding the same way. Is Caldwell really doing anything differently? I really don't think he is.

I think players that are leaders on a team are just as important as any coach is. You are talking about Phil Jackson. He had Jordan/Pippen and then Kobe/Shaq, these players have enough influence to motivate a team. This can greatly overshadow Phil's credentials.

Torre is a genuis. In baseball you can have the highest payroll and lose every year. You can have the best star players and fail to make playoffs. Many teams with high payrolls do not do well. Joe Torre had the players respect in NY and that's why he won. Maybe in LA the players see him differently.

In my opinion Bellichek can make playoffs with the state of our team right now. He will find a way to make playoffs without Manning. Bellicheck is a regime and a tradition.

As far as impact goes, in any sport, players make more impact than coaches do. It's the players that play. It is all about bonds formed. In NFL a strong defensive unit and a great football tradition will pass on from one coach to another. Take Baltimore for example, they feed from Lewis/Reed tandem, no matter who theri coach is they will always play great D and they will always make playoffs while those two are on that team. Look at Pittsburgh, they been playing great defense for decades and winning SB's no matter what coach was there.

Same with the offense. Cohesiveness on the O-line and the ability of the entire Offense to click and feed off of eachother. This happens with great player leaders and trust amongst the players.

IndyD4U · October 26, 2011

Winning. Even under adversity. In fact, especially under adversity. That's always key.
But you also look at how the team looks. Do they appear prepared and disciplined? If so, then they've been well coached. Do they look confused and afraid? Then they probably have not been. Lots of penalties? Consistently missing tackles and assignments? These are all signs of deficient coaching.
You look at things like adjustments. How things change from one half to the other. How a coach fares when making tough decisions. Like when to go for it on 4th down and when to punt.
Do players respond to him? Is he the kind of guy players want to play for. Run through brick walls for?
How does he represent the team in the public eye? (Hey, it's part of the job too)

Spot on Jaric! I couldn't have said it better myself :applause:

CR91 · October 26, 2011

you cant say bill isnt a great coach since he won 11 games without brady and an average defense

dn4192 · October 26, 2011

Winning. Even under adversity. In fact, especially under adversity. That's always key.
But you also look at how the team looks. Do they appear prepared and disciplined? If so, then they've been well coached. Do they look confused and afraid? Then they probably have not been. Lots of penalties? Consistently missing tackles and assignments? These are all signs of deficient coaching.
You look at things like adjustments. How things change from one half to the other. How a coach fares when making tough decisions. Like when to go for it on 4th down and when to punt.
Do players respond to him? Is he the kind of guy players want to play for. Run through brick walls for?
How does he represent the team in the public eye? (Hey, it's part of the job too)

Okay if "winning" is the basis we go by, how much winning? Are we talking overall career, or do we go season by season? Great coaches have had bad seasons, and bad coaches have had great seasons...so if winning is what we go by, what type of winning?

dn4192 · October 26, 2011

you cant say bill isnt a great coach since he won 11 games without brady and an average defense

But Bill didn't win in Cleveland, so is that held against him or was that a fluke? Shouldn't great coaches win no matter where they coach?

buccolts · October 26, 2011

Personally, I think the most important things are:

- Gaining the respect of your players

- Good game management

- Innovation within the confines of the talent available

- I also believe an even temper is important, but there are some example where an over emotional coach has done well also.

Here are some things that aren't key to being a good coach:

- Being emotional

- Facial expressions

- Reading message boards

- Being entertaining in press conferences

FanFromtheWasteland · October 26, 2011

Okay if "winning" is the basis we go by, how much winning? Are we talking overall career, or do we go season by season? Great coaches have had bad seasons, and bad coaches have had great seasons...so if winning is what we go by, what type of winning?

Being able to beat the Browns might be a start.

buccolts · October 26, 2011

Okay if "winning" is the basis we go by, how much winning? Are we talking overall career, or do we go season by season? Great coaches have had bad seasons, and bad coaches have had great seasons...so if winning is what we go by, what type of winning?

My thought on this is that a bad stint does not darn you from being a good to great coach over your career.

Many people fail in their first attempt at a management position, then go on to figure it out, and flourish.

BB being a great example.

So, for me, it's consistency over a career.

A bad start, or a speed bump don't ruin it for me. Just as the Colts losing this year hasn't ruined the past 12 for me.

Edit: Boy 'darn' sounds odd there. I feel like Gomer Pile all of a sudden.

Edited October 26, 2011 by buccolts

dn4192 · October 26, 2011

Being able to beat the Browns might be a start.

You don't like the Browns?

FanFromtheWasteland · October 26, 2011

You don't like the Browns?

Don't really care one way or the other. Just feel that the are a mediocre to poor team we should of beat regardless who was playing. Was just answering your question about what type of winning.

-JJ- · October 27, 2011

Winning. Even under adversity. In fact, especially under adversity. That's always key.
But you also look at how the team looks. Do they appear prepared and disciplined? If so, then they've been well coached. Do they look confused and afraid? Then they probably have not been. Lots of penalties? Consistently missing tackles and assignments? These are all signs of deficient coaching.
You look at things like adjustments. How things change from one half to the other. How a coach fares when making tough decisions. Like when to go for it on 4th down and when to punt.
Do players respond to him? Is he the kind of guy players want to play for. Run through brick walls for?
How does he represent the team in the public eye? (Hey, it's part of the job too)

and then if you've lost the players..you're done. You never get them back. Thats when its time to change coaches..even a good coach.

Jaric · October 27, 2011

and then if you've lost the players..you're done. You never get them back. Thats when its time to change coaches..even a good coach.

It came up in another thread, but if Tom Landry can get fired, anyone can get fired.

-JJ- · October 27, 2011

It came up in another thread, but if Tom Landry can get fired, anyone can get fired.

yeah.

Not that I'm saying Pete Caroll is great (he aint bad and a nice guy) but he got fired because he had lost control of the team. When that happens the fat lady is not far behind.

Jaric · October 27, 2011

yeah.
Not that I'm saying Pete Caroll is great (he aint bad and a nice guy) but he got fired because he had lost control of the team. When that happens the fat lady is not far behind.

You mean no one was buying into "JACKED AND PUMPED!"

chad72 · October 27, 2011

We have already seen that certain coaches perform better as assistant coaches or OC or DC than head coaches. Wade Philips and soon, Steve Spagnuolos will come to mind, maybe Josh McDaniels too can be added on the offensive side. As a head coach, one needs to be able to make hard decisions. For example, Brian Billick fired his long time close friend Jim Fassel in the middle of a season because he was not getting the job done as OC. It takes a lot of objectivity to make such a decision.

Same thing with the Bucs coach Morris. I think Jim Bates, an experienced coach, was his DC, I think. He was probably one of the youngest coaches, you have to remember and there is always a lot of pressure on a coach that has a lot to prove. He fired Bates in the middle of the season when the Bucs' D was stinking it up and the Bucs' D has at least been respectable, if not good since then.

The ability to make hard decisions is one of them. I would frankly respect Caldwell more if he fired Coyer in the middle of the season if we cannot turn our defensive stats around though Coyer is his guy. If we lost all games like we lost the close ones to the Steelers, we can chalk it up to not being experienced in end of game situations. The Texans' D lost at least 4 or 5 games in the last 2 minutes of games last year leading to a 6-10 record. That, I can handle. We need to be able to make adjustments on the fly to game situations, whether it is using an edge blitzer or 5-man fronts (just giving random examples) to force the opponents to not get comfy in what they are doing. We cannot wait till an entire game is over to make adjustments before the next game, it has to be in-game. It applies to both sides of the ball.

Edited October 27, 2011 by chad72

Smitto · October 27, 2011

I think as a fan its very hard for us to judge how good a coach is... what we see is a coach who has his headset on and occasionally speaking through it, we dont know what he's saying... as for other coaches like DC and OC its a bit easier... but a HC its hard.

-JJ- · October 27, 2011

You mean no one was buying into "JACKED AND PUMPED!"

Like everything else in sports...it was ok when they were winning.

Best cheerleader coach I've ever seen:)

Douzer · October 27, 2011

Do not use the record, the play, or your own eyes in your considerations. Listen to the wizard behind the curtain.

Andy · October 27, 2011

If he can win even if the star players aren't there... if you can overcome adversity and still win, like Mike Tomlin and Bill Belicheck went without their star QB, and it's a big reason why they're the best. Another reason is the gameplan they create, and their coaching style... a bunch of other things

GoGoColts · October 27, 2011

We should be about .500 by now. Caldwell made some titanic mistakes that led to a titanic collapse.

StampedeU · October 27, 2011

A definition of a good coach, Jim Harbaugh. Essentially the same roster, minus talented players like Takeo Spikes and Aubrayo Franklin and he has that team playing miles better than at any time last season under Mike Singletary. The guys are focused, hungry and are playing at a higher level this season than last. heck, Alex Smith looks like a legitimate NFL quarterback!

A definition of a bad coach is a guy who can't get his players to play hard(a recent Sunday night game comes to mind), can't make in-game adjustments, has poor clock management, and can't win. The players reflect their coach.

Gonzo · October 27, 2011

A good coach should never lose 62-7 on primetime TV. I call it Caldwells Law, and I expect it to pass the test of time.

unitaswestand · October 27, 2011

For me, a good coach is one who can get the most out of the least amount. It always surprises me when a coach will become a coordinator of a good team with good players and then be promoted to HC somewhere because his side did well. Spagnola had a loaded defensive line on the Giants. Frazier had a very good defensive line with the Vikings. No wonder they did well!!! I am more impressed with how Belichick can put up so many points with mediocre WRs. Or how Jim Harbaugh can come in and get SF to play beyond their talent level. That is how I just a good coach.

GoColts8818 · October 27, 2011

and then if you've lost the players..you're done. You never get them back. Thats when its time to change coaches..even a good coach.

and that's what I fear is starting to go on in our lockerroom. What really bothered me about Sunday night was that the Colts just never had pride take over at some point and just make a stop because of pride. They looked like a beaten team Sunday that threw in the towl and that's a sign they are starting to quit on Caldwell and if that happens he's done. I thought he would keep his job till I saw that.

John Dee · October 27, 2011

The debate is on if Jim Caldwell is a good coach or not. So how do we decide? I mean was Phil Jackson of the NBA a great coach or just lucky to have 3-4 of the greates players to ever suit up in the NBA on this team?
What about Bill B. in NE? He couldn't do anything in Cleveland but comes to NE, gets good/great talent around him and wins 3 SB in like 4-5 seasons, but hasn't won one in while, even in the season he team went undefeated until the SB and was beaten by Tom Coughlin and the NY Giants, a team they had already beaten in teh regular season.
You look at Joe Torre in MLB, managed a number of different teams to nothing special, goes to the Yankees with all their talent and money and wins a handful of WS titles, then goes to the Dodges and does basically nothing.
How much impact does the coach have? Do NFL coaches have more impact on the outcome of a game over say a MLB manager or NBA manager? Jimmy Johnson was great in Dallas because he was a great coach, or because due to sucking so much before he got there and the incredible Walker trade made some incredible draft picks and those players got Dallas on top?
I personally think it's not easy to determine any coaches ability over a short time period. I think a number of things go into how good coaches are....what do others think?

First and foremost does "said coach's" teams play hard yet disciplined.

For me, a good coach is one who can get the most out of the least amount. It always surprises me when a coach will become a coordinator of a good team with good players and then be promoted to HC somewhere because his side did well. Spagnola had a loaded defensive line on the Giants. Frazier had a very good defensive line with the Vikings. No wonder they did well!!! I am more impressed with how Belichick can put up so many points with mediocre WRs. Or how Jim Harbaugh can come in and get SF to play beyond their talent level. That is how I just a good coach.

BB, Harbaugh, and all the "really good" coaches are leaders and motivators. They know when and what buttons to push to get the desired result.]

And lets stop it with the NE has mediocre receivers. Welker is NOT mediocre. Branch is a former SB MVP. NE's TE's were both ranked atop the draft boards at the position, Hernandez fell because of a failed drug test or he would have been picked in the first round that year. The great Chad whatever cannot even break into the rotation of this "mediocre" unit.

John Dee · October 27, 2011

I think as a fan its very hard for us to judge how good a coach is... what we see is a coach who has his headset on and occasionally speaking through it, we dont know what he's saying... as for other coaches like DC and OC its a bit easier... but a HC its hard.

No it's not, does his team play hard, smart, disciplined football. Win or lose these are traits that are easily identifiable.

And they are non existent in this years Colts.

Smitto · October 27, 2011

No it's not, does his team play hard, smart, disciplined football. Win or lose these are traits that are easily identifiable.
And they are non existent in this years Colts.

Thats exactly what i mean, are you saying that the players arent playing hard? because if you are then your wrong..... the colts are an undersized defense, even if they play sound football the can still get gashed.

Caldwell isnt a good coach at all because you can see that the players lack much discipline... cant still be calling defensive plays while the ball is being snapped, but these losses are mainly on bill polian and for the fact the colts dont have a franchise QB playing.

Lets face it, if peyton or any really good QB was playing caldwell would not be under fire like this.

BIGugly · October 27, 2011

Okay if "winning" is the basis we go by, how much winning? Are we talking overall career, or do we go season by season? Great coaches have had bad seasons, and bad coaches have had great seasons...so if winning is what we go by, what type of winning?

1. First year, 14-0 followed by 2-3

2. Second year. 10-6 followed by 0-1

3. Third year. 0 fer and counting.

Questions ?????

dn4192 · October 27, 2011

1. First year, 14-0 followed by 2-3
2. Second year. 10-6 followed by 0-1
3. Third year. 0 fer and counting.
Questions ?????

So in his first season with a full and basically healthy roster the team goes 14-2 and to the superbowl. In his second season with key injuries to a number of key personal they still win the division and make it to the playoffs. And now with the team missing again a number of key players due to injuries and missing your starting QB who is the key to your whole teams approach of how they play isn't playing and he is 0-7. So...there is no question that when the talent is there the Colts win and he is the coach, so shouldn't he be allowed to coach again next season?

dn4192 · October 27, 2011

Thats exactly what i mean, are you saying that the players arent playing hard? because if you are then your wrong..... the colts are an undersized defense, even if they play sound football the can still get gashed.
Caldwell isnt a good coach at all because you can see that the players lack much discipline... cant still be calling defensive plays while the ball is being snapped, but these losses are mainly on bill polian and for the fact the colts dont have a franchise QB playing.
Lets face it, if peyton or any really good QB was playing caldwell would not be under fire like this.

Exactly what "discipline" are the lacking?

dn4192 · October 27, 2011

and that's what I fear is starting to go on in our lockerroom. What really bothered me about Sunday night was that the Colts just never had pride take over at some point and just make a stop because of pride. They looked like a beaten team Sunday that threw in the towl and that's a sign they are starting to quit on Caldwell and if that happens he's done. I thought he would keep his job till I saw that.

You can have all the pride in the world, Talent wins out every time.

BIGugly · October 27, 2011

So in his first season with a full and basically healthy roster the team goes 14-2 and to the superbowl. In his second season with key injuries to a number of key personal they still win the division and make it to the playoffs. And now with the team missing again a number of key players due to injuries and missing your starting QB who is the key to your whole teams approach of how they play isn't playing and he is 0-7. So...there is no question that when the talent is there the Colts win and he is the coach, so shouldn't he be allowed to coach again next season?

No, he shouldn't....Hasn't been a winner EVER as a head coach. Not from college, not in the Super Bowl. Not in the playoffs last year, and not this year.

Green Bay did it last year with more inuries than we had, and we only went 10-6 and one and done.

He is now Three and Done, as in 3 strikes and your out, done.

Edited October 27, 2011 by BIGugly

BIGugly · October 27, 2011

Exactly what "discipline" are the lacking?

This is not a serious question, right???

dn4192 · October 27, 2011

This is not a serious question, right???

Yep, what discipline are we missing here...or is it more what don't U see?

BIGugly · October 27, 2011

Yep, what discipline are we missing here...or is it more what don't U see?

Seriously, you seriosly can not see it??? Seriously???

Edited October 27, 2011 by BIGugly

BOTT · October 27, 2011

But Bill didn't win in Cleveland, so is that held against him or was that a fluke? Shouldn't great coaches win no matter where they coach?

he did much better in cleveland than fans give him credit for....considering the situation.

dn4192 · October 27, 2011

Seriously, you seriosly can not see it??? Seriously???

What I see are young players who make bad decisions which young players do, I see poor tackling and such. What are U seeing?

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