39 replies to this topic

[amfootball]

This has been bugging me all season. Time and time again, everyone from football analysts to media people kept saying that the 2012 Broncos were by far the best team Peyton Manning had ever been a part of in his career. They said his defense was better, his run game, his receivers, his coaching. I found this staggering. I believe the Colts teams of the '00s were ranked only second behind the Pats for team of the decade. Team of the decade! And yet the Broncos with Decker, Moreno, Thomas, Fox were better than Harrison, Wayne, James, Addei, Dungy. Really?

 

I would be interested in hearing from Colfs fans on this. I just don't see it. I realize the Broncos offensive and defensive ranks were top 10 but they also played no one for an eleven game stretch. 

[Susie Q]

Looks like another   thread.  JMO

[Yehoodi]

Looks like another   thread.  JMO

I think that depends on the responses by people, true i can see that it can go both ways, but on its face it is a fair question . . .

I would have to look at it year by year as teams change year to year and the franchise has different versions each year . . . and yes the colts have had a long run and so on this level i don't see the broncos having that kind of run . . .

from a per year basis, at a minimun i would put the 2012 Broncos behind the 2009, 2007, 2005 and 2004 colts . . . the others years might be up to debate . . .

the good news is for Peyton fans is that he is on a team with a solid supporting cast . . . as opposed to ending up in Oakland or something . . .

[chad72]

I created a thread stating Broncos were overrated, and I stand by it.

[tonychen]

I created a thread stating Broncos were overrated, and I stand by it.

 

To their ranking this season, yes they are since they benefited from an easy schedule in the 2nd half of the season. The defense showed a lot of holes in the first 5 games but had better stats since then until the playoff, and nobody really challenged Manning since the first half of the 1st Chargers game and he was feeling way too comfortable.  

 

But comparing them with all the previous Colts team, they still may be 2nd to only the 05 team which were extremely balanced as well.

[IndyTrav]

Man for man? I think so.

WR is a tough call. Obviously our guys had better careers, but Decker/Thomas are phenomenal talents.

RB. Maybe. Early Edge has the edge, but late Edge then Addai/Rhodes is pretty much on par with what they have now.

Pass rushers? Miller is the best of the bunch, but as a duo it's probably a push. Maybe slight edge to Den.

Secondary hands down goes to Den.

OL Den.

Coaching. Again hard to tell. Maybe Dungy simply based on name.

As a whole solid, one year unit, I give the edge to Denver. We had good OL RB one year, good def bad OL one year so on so forth. But as a solid unit I have to go Denver.

[tonychen]

Man for man? I think so.

WR is a tough call. Obviously our guys had better careers, but Decker/Thomas are phenomenal talents.

RB. Maybe. Early Edge has the edge, but late Edge then Addai/Rhodes is pretty much on par with what they have now.

Pass rushers? Miller is the best of the bunch, but as a duo it's probably a push. Maybe slight edge to Den.

Secondary hands down goes to Den.

OL Den.

Coaching. Again hard to tell. Maybe Dungy simply based on name.

As a whole solid, one year unit, I give the edge to Denver. We had good OL RB one year, good def bad OL one year so on so forth. But as a solid unit I have to go Denver.

 

So if you are comparing this Den team with all Colts teams in Manning era, this Denver team might excel only on the offensive side. Their secondary is not as good as the one Colts had in 06 super bowl run IMO. Hayden, Marlin Jackson,  Bathea, and most importantly Bob Sanders were unbeatable in that run. Champ Bailey is too old to be a man-coverage corner, and their pass-rush is overrated.

[IndyTrav]

So if you are comparing this Den team with all Colts teams in Manning era, this Denver team might excel only on the offensive side. Their secondary is not as good as the one Colts had in 06 super bowl run IMO. Hayden, Marlin Jackson, Bathea, and most importantly Bob Sanders were unbeatable in that run. Champ Bailey is too old to be a man-coverage corner, and their pass-rush is overrated.

I guess it just depends on how you look at it. Was the 06 secondary good? It was great. Less yds and TDs and more TO than Denver allowed this year but Den did have less net yd avg.....but at the same time the Colts DLine was historically bad that year. Over 2kyds and 20+TDs....they only had something like 24sacks, to Denver's 50+...

You'd have to piece together different Colts teams from different years to have a comparable team to what the Broncos have now IMO.

[tonychen]

I guess it just depends on how you look at it. Was the 06 secondary good? It was great. Less yds and TDs and more TO than Denver allowed this year but Den did have less net yd avg.....but at the same time the Colts DLine was historically bad that year. Over 2kyds and 20+TDs....they only had something like 24sacks, to Denver's 50+...

You'd have to piece together different Colts teams from different years to have a comparable team to what the Broncos have now IMO.

 

Generally I agree with you and Colts have never had a quality DT in all these yrs. But the 05 Colts almost had all the best pieces you talked about and unfortunately they also went 1-and-done. That's why I think Manning has missed perhaps the last opportunity in his career.

[ViriLudant]

Harrison and Wayne >>>> Decker and Thomas, although Decker and Thomas ARE great WRs. They're not HOFers, though... not yet.

Dallas Clark >>>> Tamme.

Colts' O-line = Broncos' O-line (keep in mind we're talking about around '05/'06)

Defense:

Freeney and Mathis >> Von Miller and Dumervil (sp?).

Sanders was great when healthy, so that tends to make me prefer the Colts' secondary to the Bronco's; Champ is old and was exposed against the Ravens. Marlin Jackson was always a fairly solid CB.


In general, I'd say that the Colts' offense was better than the Broncos' one this year... by quite a bit.

The Broncos' defense was solid, and although they gave up as many points as they did, it must be pointed out that Peyton put them in a bad twice on TO's, so I'd forgive 10 of those points (plus the 7 given up on the pick-six).

[IndyTrav]

Harrison and Wayne >>>> Decker and Thomas, although Decker and Thomas ARE great WRs. They're not HOFers, though... not yet.

Dallas Clark >>>> Tamme.

Colts' O-line = Broncos' O-line (keep in mind we're talking about around '05/'06)

Defense:

Freeney and Mathis >> Von Miller and Dumervil (sp?).

Sanders was great when healthy, so that tends to make me prefer the Colts' secondary to the Bronco's; Champ is old and was exposed against the Ravens. Marlin Jackson was always a fairly solid CB.


In general, I'd say that the Colts' offense was better than the Broncos' one this year... by quite a bit.

The Broncos' defense was solid, and although they gave up as many points as they did, it must be pointed out that Peyton put them in a bad twice on TO's, so I'd forgive 10 of those points (plus the 7 given up on the pick-six).

I dunno man.

Marv Reggie had 160ish/2300/17 with 29yr old manning....Thomas/Decker had 170ish/2400+/23 with a 36yr old Manning. First time playing.

Clark had 500/4 tamme had 500/2.

Frathis had 22.5/14ff/76tack....millervill had 29/12ff/87 and a TD.

It's pretty close in all aspects.

[oldunclemark]

I created a thread stating Broncos were overrated, and I stand by it.

Isnt it easy to say that any No.1 seed was overarted once they get beat?

Just asking.

[Susie Q]

I created a thread stating Broncos were overrated, and I stand by it.

This type of thread has been and everyone has stated their opinion which I respect but why bring up another thread to repeat the same replies over and over again.   Getting boring   JMO

[GoPats]

I created a thread stating Broncos were overrated, and I stand by it.

 

I think their schedule lead to that. They handled the bad and mediocre teams quite well, as they should have, but that may have made their defensive rankings a little higher than they should have been.

 

Seeing what Brady has done to the Broncos the last three times he's played them (all since Dec 2011) sort of clinches it for me. Great defenses slow him down a little... Denver hasn't, at least not lately.

[oldunclemark]

This has been bugging me all season. Time and time again, everyone from football analysts to media people kept saying that the 2012 Broncos were by far the best team Peyton Manning had ever been a part of in his career. They said his defense was better, his run game, his receivers, his coaching. I found this staggering. I believe the Colts teams of the '00s were ranked only second behind the Pats for team of the decade. Team of the decade! And yet the Broncos with Decker, Moreno, Thomas, Fox were better than Harrison, Wayne, James, Addei, Dungy. Really?
 
I would be interested in hearing from Colfs fans on this. I just don't see it. I realize the Broncos offensive and defensive ranks were top 10 but they also played no one for an eleven game stretch. 

This taem was better than the Colts Super Bowl teams but thise were the best teams of the so-called Manning Era

I though the early 2000s Colts especially the 2005 season when they were 13-0..and were upset by Pitt
......was Indy's best team

[ViriLudant]

I dunno man.

Marv Reggie had 160ish/2300/17 with 29yr old manning....Thomas/Decker had 170ish/2400+/23 with a 36yr old Manning. First time playing.

Clark had 500/4 tamme had 500/2.

Frathis had 22.5/14ff/76tack....millervill had 29/12ff/87 and a TD.

It's pretty close in all aspects.

I don't think that a complete decision is made by stats alone.

I saw Marvin and Reggie play in many, many games. I've seen most of Decker's and Thomas's games, as well.

Marvin and Reggie are better route runners, and CERTAINLY have better hands (Decker's are better than Thomas's).

[IndyTrav]

I don't think that a complete decision is made by stats alone.

I saw Marvin and Reggie play in many, many games. I've seen most of Decker's and Thomas's games, as well.

Marvin and Reggie are better route runners, and CERTAINLY have better hands (Decker's are better than Thomas's).

I don't disagree with that at all.

I personally weighted my decision on both Decker/Thomas based on some other factors including a less than 100% Manning, familiarity with both Manning and the system, and experience.

[Bogie]

Oh god, the disappointment in Denver losing. I think you guys are more disappointed in this loss, than a Colts loss.

[oldunclemark]

Oh god, the disappointment in Denver losing. I think you guys are more disappointed in this loss, than a Colts loss.



Denver is Indy-West, Bogie....You know the story...

Its the disapointment in the ex-Colts trio losing

You might as well get used to it.

its gonna be that way for a few years

[ViriLudant]

Oh god, the disappointment in Denver losing. I think you guys are more disappointed in this loss, than a Colts loss.

Know what was... strange? I went over to the main Broncos' forum after they lost, just to see what they were saying, and I saw some long-time "Colt" fans posting on there as regulars.

[Mameluc]

I think their schedule lead to that. They handled the bad and mediocre teams quite well, as they should have, but that may have made their defensive rankings a little higher than they should have been.

 

Seeing what Brady has done to the Broncos the last three times he's played them (all since Dec 2011) sort of clinches it for me. Great defenses slow him down a little... Denver hasn't, at least not lately.

i agree with that statement. i think their D was vastly overrated and was h elped by a weak Schedule.

 

i do not agree with the notion that this broncos were better... i do believe one more draft and they probably will but the thing is we dont know if manning would be there in 3 years...

 

right now id say no, but that deppends a whole lot on how they develop and their next draft...id say they are on track, specailly because they seem to to understand they need to build a better team all around not just offense

[Jules]

No because........

 

The Manning the Colts had was better/younger/healthier/stronger then the Manning the Broncos have.

[IndyTrav]

Know what was... strange? I went over to the main Broncos' forum after they lost, just to see what they were saying, and I saw some long-time "Colt" fans posting on there as regulars.

I'm assuming Doogan. Who else?

[ruksak]

Oh god, the disappointment in Denver losing. I think you guys are more disappointed in this loss, than a Colts loss.

I don't understand why we can't have civil discussions of this nature purely for entertainment?

 

Why do people have to act so scorned and defensive over these multi-millionaire jocks that likely wouldn't even speak to you any longer than it took for them to get away from you?

 

I do think Denver had a more complete squad, in terms of talent and potential. However, our 2006 team had so much heart and will. Obviously it would be misguided to assert that a team whom won the SB isn't better than a team that went 1 and done, at home, against a rather unflattering Ravens squad. 

[ruksak]

Know what was... strange? I went over to the main Broncos' forum after they lost, just to see what they were saying, and I saw some long-time "Colt" fans posting on there as regulars.

That includes me. You got a problem with that? Something you'd like to say to me for my treasonous behavior?

[Snowglobe]

Overall probably 

 

1. 2012 broncos

2. 2005 colts

3. 2007 colts

[Jules]

Overall probably 

 

1. 2012 broncos

2. 2005 colts

3. 2007 colts

 

2005 Colts with 2005 Manning>2012 Broncos with 2012 Manning

 

JMO

 

Some of our old offenses would have straight up beaten the crap out of this current Broncos D.......

 

Actually next season if given protection Luck might beat the snot out of this Broncos D.

 

Heck I like some of our old Ds better with Sanders and a rockin Freeney/Mathis then this Broncos D.

 

 

Maybe it's just me but I never was fully on board with the Broncos hype...maybe they prove me wrong next year but I just think they can be such paper tigers. Chargers used to do the same thing! Maybe it's an AFC West illness. I was never stunned the Broncos lost, I had them losing to the Ravens. If they got by the Ravens then Brady would have blown that D up in Mile High......it's not just a Manning thing but I still think he lost a step based on the eye test alone.

[Mameluc]

Overall probably 
 
1. 2012 broncos
2. 2005 colts
3. 2007 colts

its funny noone ever mentions the 06 team lol

[Mameluc]

2005 Colts with 2005 Manning>2012 Broncos with 2012 Manning
 
JMO
 
Some of our old offenses would have straight up beaten the crap out of this current Broncos D.......

completely agree...
i think

o5 colts
07 colts
12 broncos

[Dustin]

Overall probably 

 

1. 2012 broncos

2. 2005 colts

3. 2007 colts

 

No way the 2012 team was better than the '05 team. The '05 team had a better version of Manning, better running game, better receivers, better LB core, better secondary, better defensive ends, and a better kicker (though not so much in the playoffs)

[ruksak]

Overall probably 

 

1. 2012 broncos

2. 2005 colts

3. 2007 colts

Again....how is it logical to assert a 1 and done team is better than a SB championship team that had to win an away game and play all three playoff rounds?

 

How players look on paper is meaningless. How they perform is paramount. The 2006 Colts clearly out-performed this Denver team that you claim is better. How does that work? 

[Jules]

its funny noone ever mentions the 06 team lol

 

It is odd. But, I loved that offense. I remember the run game with Addai picking up later in the year too, around that time we played the Eagles at home. That was an underrated Manning season since Tomlinson got all the attention for MVP and then so did Brees I think too for his year in New Orleans with their feel good story. And with Clark missing a few games near the end and nearly being put on IR I did get worried for a while there since Stokley was out and then we had to sign Rickey Proehl LOL. Remember Ricky? I think he had one catch all year.

 

The 2006 D in the playoffs was good enough though and never forget THE BOOGER.

 

Oh God yeah, I think I like several old Colts teams better then this current Broncos team. Not saying the Broncos are not good nor could get better but most of our old Colts teams would have had Baltimore for lunch. Patriots? Much tougher.....  I almost feel like the old Peyton would have yelled to Ray Lewis during a game, "Oh you are gonna retire? Come at me bro......".

 

I think we might have had some better teams at times then people think. Just that we always flubbed up. Poor Peyton really, his teams have bad luck it seems. Eli has the good luck gene in the playoffs but can't do jack for most regular seasons.

[Snowglobe]

Again....how is it logical to assert a 1 and done team is better than a SB championship team that had to win an away game and play all three playoff rounds?

 

How players look on paper is meaningless. How they perform is paramount. The 2006 Colts clearly out-performed this Denver team that you claim is better. How does that work? 

 

Sorry didn't notice the thread was titled "Were the Broncos better than previous Colts teams in the playoffs". Must have left my glasses somewhere.

[Snowglobe]

No way the 2012 team was better than the '05 team. The '05 team had a better version of Manning, better running game, better receivers, better LB core, better secondary, better defensive ends, and a better kicker (though not so much in the playoffs)

 

I'm just looking at talent across the board. Denver is loaded with talent on both sides of the ball. I think 05 Colts were better offensively but that defense was less talented than the current Broncos D. Not to mention the ST. Holiday and Prater are darn good.

[ruksak]

I'm just looking at talent across the board. Denver is loaded with talent on both sides of the ball. I think 05 Colts were better offensively but that defense was less talented than the current Broncos D. Not to mention the ST. Holiday and Prater are darn good.

Talent unfulfilled is talent unrealized. 

 

We realized our talent by producing a Lombardi.

 

The Broncos failed at home against an unimpressive club. Unfulfilled. 

[ruksak]

Sorry didn't notice the thread was titled "Were the Broncos better than previous Colts teams in the playoffs". Must have left my glasses somewhere.

You gave your opinion. I gave my opinion on your opinion. Now it is your turn to post your opinion of my opinion of your opinion. 

 

That's how this whole internet message board thing works. 

[Mameluc]

It is odd. But, I loved that offense. I remember the run game with Addai picking up later in the year too, around that time we played the Eagles at home. That was an underrated Manning season since Tomlinson got all the attention for MVP and then so did Brees I think too for his year in New Orleans with their feel good story. And with Clark missing a few games near the end and nearly being put on IR I did get worried for a while there since Stokley was out and then we had to sign Rickey Proehl LOL. Remember Ricky? I think he had one catch all year.
 
The 2006 D in the playoffs was good enough though and never forget THE BOOGER.
 
Oh God yeah, I think I like several old Colts teams better then this current Broncos team. Not saying the Broncos are not good nor could get better but most of our old Colts teams would have had Baltimore for lunch. Patriots? Much tougher.....  I almost feel like the old Peyton would have yelled to Ray Lewis during a game, "Oh you are gonna retire? Come at me bro......".
 
I think we might have had some better teams at times then people think. Just that we always flubbed up. Poor Peyton really, his teams have bad luck it seems. Eli has the good luck gene in the playoffs but can't do jack for most regular seasons.

wasnt ricky's only catch a td or am i confusing him?

honestly i blame the cover 2 system we used for much of our playoff demise ...but i dont want to bring another argument so please everybody lets no go there...we have another 3 topics about it

i think that post season even though manning threw like 6 picks, i cnat beliebe what im going to say but he was clutch...the drive vs the ravens where he threw the perfect pass to dallas clark...man that was unbelievable... then the chiefs he sucked but when it was time to put away the game he got us a td...then te pats comeback...man what a fun postseason

[Jules]

i think that post season even though manning threw like 6 picks, i cnat beliebe what im going to say but he was clutch...the drive vs the ravens where he threw the perfect pass to dallas clark...man that was unbelievable... then the chiefs he sucked but when it was time to put away the game he got us a td...then te pats comeback...man what a fun postseason

 

Manning gets too much flack at times for his postseason numbers in 2006. He did what he had to do when he needed to do it that postseason for 4 games straight.

[OldManP]

This has been bugging me all season. Time and time again, everyone from football analysts to media people kept saying that the 2012 Broncos were by far the best team Peyton Manning had ever been a part of in his career. They said his defense was better, his run game, his receivers, his coaching. I found this staggering. I believe the Colts teams of the '00s were ranked only second behind the Pats for team of the decade. Team of the decade! And yet the Broncos with Decker, Moreno, Thomas, Fox were better than Harrison, Wayne, James, Addei, Dungy. Really?

 

I would be interested in hearing from Colfs fans on this. I just don't see it. I realize the Broncos offensive and defensive ranks were top 10 but they also played no one for an eleven game stretch. 

The 2006 Colts were much better than 2012 Broncos.  Manning was a better player in '06, along with the cast you name. 

[chad72]

Discipline wise, the JDR effect showed, terrible lack of discipline with the D. Problem with a young team - they play lights out while ahead but when adversity hits, they dont just buckle their chin straps and play disciplined football with fundamentals, that is what I saw mostly from the Broncos' D.

 

Plus, the HUGE difference is Dallas Clark. Did you see Peyton work the seams in this latest Ravens game AT ALL? Most of Peyton's fatal picks have come Wayne's and Harrison's way. That is why Sean Payton decided to double Dallas Clark once he saw DC was hurting him in the Saints SB initially, he got mad at Gregg Williams. Once they doubled DC bar none, Peyton had to throw outside more and a fatal mistake eventually happened. Peyton loves to exploit the seams and Dallas Clark in his prime as a receiving TE was such a mismatch like the Pats' TEs against LBs and sometimes even safeties. Dallas Clark was singularly our best receiver in our 2006 SB playoff run, better than Harrison and Wayne, IMO. Those circus catches behind Ravens' safeties and LBs etc. were a thing of beauty, that gave Peyton the luxury of taking Ed Reed out of the game while being productive in passing, with the receiving TE, something no one talks about.

 

As much as people like to talk up Tamme, I do not think he demands double teams the way Clark did as a receiving TE. Peyton made Clark but their chemistry made each other, IMO.